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Anyone watch the dog brothers on TV3 last night

  • 01-07-2008 09:47AM
    #1
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Not a bad documentary at all, albeit that it was a wee bit one sided having been produced by the dog brothers themselves. The no refs, no judges, no medals thing was interesting, the emphasis being on participation. Was less impressed with the safety thing, even if the track record for serious injury is low.

    I'd be interested in seeing how this compares with weapon sparring over here.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭Leo?


    Missed it, thought it was about bareknuckled boxing with a name like "underground fight club".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Not into stick fighting but the dog brothers attitude always interested me. They seem to be at the extreme end of the spectrum though, the opposite end being musical weapons forms of course :)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    You obviously missed their morris dancing kata :)

    Most of the stick fights, with one notable exception, seemed to end up as ground fights, finishing with either submission or G&P. Tactic seemed to be to rush your opponent to get inside of effective stick range. The one guy that got it wrong got knocked out by a stick blow to the head. Most of the stick work seemed to be strikes rather than stabs, not sure why.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭Martin25


    I saw about half of it. These guys are tough and are nice people outside the ring, but there are a lot of nasty injuries. On a DVD I saw one guy with his thumb destroyed from the knuckle up, and another with his kneecap pretty much knocked off.
    Getting knocked out with a stick is not to be recommended.
    How can any one work the next day following this type of injury?
    I have been hit by sticks etc and its not that enjoyable! But there you go.
    Martin


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    It was interesting, basically low standard MMA with sticks used, the sticks where used like blows instead of like stabbing because they hurt more as blows..if they where swords then they would of stabbed aswell..this was afight and not sword games!

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭spiral


    I have a buddy who fights with the dog brothers in LA.
    Basically one way or another you have to close the gap and take the other guy down. Otherwise you both end up whacking away at each other. He does FMA and is a purple belt in BJJ.
    A lot of those guys do FMA and BJJ .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 668 ✭✭✭ch252


    Yeah, I seen a triangle put on at one stage, it was as cowzerp said, very basic mma with sticks.http://www.dogbrothers.com/ Thats their site, loads of videos on youtube also.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭spiral


    Yeah its certainly a lot more realistic thyan some of the escrima tournaments I've seen video of where they have a huge padded jacket and helmet


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    spiral wrote: »
    Yeah its certainly a lot more realistic thyan some of the escrima tournaments I've seen video of where they have a huge padded jacket and helmet

    Indeed, terrible that anyone should be concerned about participant safety.

    I don't get the point in hurting someone else to the degree that these guys occassionally do in training, just so you can appear "hard".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭spiral


    in all honesty Dragan , no one forces them to do it and I think they recommend you come for a look before you participate. Some people who train with the sticks want an avenue where they can compete as realistically as possible.
    That being said I probably think they could make it a bit safer but that would detract from their image or hardness. I think a few of them are probably a bit mad to be honest.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭Kent Brockman


    What are the chances of anyone ever actually being involved in a stick or knife 'fight' in reality?,Unless you are going to carry sticks and knives around all the time in case you are attacked by someone with similar weapons?

    It all seems a bit pointless to me and all really only bravado and machoism.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    What are the chances of anyone ever actually being involved in a stick or knife 'fight' in reality?,Unless you are going to carry sticks and knives around all the time in case you are attacked by someone with similar weapons?

    It all seems a bit pointless to me and all really only bravado and machoism.

    Agree with Kent here.

    I must admit I didn't see the documentary, but what I have seen looks like Jackass crossed with martial arts


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭Dave Joyce


    Wow an amazing number of FMA "experts" with some interesting comments. If you think I'm been a bit defensive about FMA, well yes you're right particularly in the context of how some MMA guys reacted on a thread sometime ago when a poster ventured that the standard of striking in MMA in Ireland was poor. Of those guys with their negative attitudes, how many of you have done "any" training in FMA?
    It all seems a bit pointless to me and all really only bravado and machoism.

    Hmm, a lot of people say this about guys that fight with limited rules in a cage too ya know! It amazes me that when "SOME" MMA afficiandos castigate TMA for the lack of reality/level of bullsheet, they then have the gall to make comments like the above and this is certainly not the first time I've heard this type of comment. Ok maybe you're not into FMA but you want to critise guys who want to see what works for real in an envirnoment with as few rules as possible???!!! WTF!!!!
    Yeah its certainly a lot more realistic thyan some of the escrima tournaments I've seen video of where they have a huge padded jacket and helmet

    Have you done any WEKAF style sparring Spiral, cause even with the all the gear it still CAN hurt like a MF and I've seen guys get cut through the helmet, ribs bruised through the suits and guys with hand fracutures through Ice hockey gloves!!
    I don't get the point in hurting someone else to the degree that these guys occassionally do in training, just so you can appear "hard".

    Dragan, its not about been/looking "hard". As Denny said during the film, some people want to test themselves under pressure/or in intense situations (and if you do FMA this is one of the most appropreiate places). Its like the guys that want to do any of Geoff Thompsons Animal Days!
    What are the chances of anyone ever actually being involved in a stick or knife 'fight' in reality?,Unless you are going to carry sticks and knives around all the time in case you are attacked by someone with similar weapons?

    Finally the best "quote"! If you actually trained any FMA you would know there is a lot more to the training than weapon work, Panantukan is Filipino boxing, Sikaran is Filipino kicking, Yaw Yan is Filipino Muaythai and Dumog is Filipino grappling. Apart from all the above, if you knew anything about FMA, you would be aware that part of the weapon training improves/compliments your empty hand skills. A lot of those skills taught/learnt in weapons training can be applied to empty hand training.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    Gotta go with Dave on this one.
    Hmm, a lot of people say this about guys that fight with limited rules in a cage too ya know!
    Indeed they would.

    I'd have zero interest in doing stick fighting but as someone who occasionally like scrapping with people in a cage I’d hardly criticise it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Dave Joyce wrote: »
    Dragan, its not about been/looking "hard". As Denny said during the film, some people want to test themselves under pressure/or in intense situations (and if you do FMA this is one of the most appropreiate places). Its like the guys that want to do any of Geoff Thompsons Animal Days!

    Cool. Cheers for clearing that up. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭spiral


    Dave Im sure it does hurt with those jackets , just saying the Dog Brothers stuff is more realistic IMO.
    No interest in participating but I think its goodb theres a venue for people to test themselves this way if they wish.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    The dog brothers thing is more along the lines of NHB VT rather than MMA. MMA is a sport, it's fighting but it's a sport with rules and procedure rather than gentlemanly agreements. I don't condone this type of meet up nor do I condone other extreme hobbys like 200km marathons or sky diving - just reckless endangerment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 255 ✭✭Scramble


    I have a couple of the Dog Brothers DVDs (the instructional material) and it's interesting stuff. 'MMA with sticks' is a fair enough description of it, although I think they'd argue that they do keep quite close to their FMA root arts, although I gather that alot of what they do now is actually from krabi krabong.

    From what I can tell there's a few things that should be noted about their approach: The Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association teaches all the various stuff they do and has members all over the world. Of these guys, I think only a comparatively small number actually fight at the Gatherings. In this respect, it's probably no different to the way in which most MMA gyms have lots of guys training but only a few who actually compete in the cage.

    The other thing is that while the Gatherings are obviously risky and injuries occur most of the guys fighting seem to know each other and exhibit a lot of respect for one another. If this is the way their group wants to test themselves out a few times a year (it's not like it's happening every weekend) then I think more power to them. Seems no different to me than any other combat sport in principle.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    It's not like they're ambushing some guy. They agree to meet, know the score and have certain safety limits in place.

    I wouldn't get in a fight with a man who wanted to hit me with a stick! I have enough trouble with knees, kicks and punches! But I swung a stick around with Scuttery and Ush a few years back and had great craic and found it bloody hard.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 904 ✭✭✭David Jones


    Didnt see the documentary, but myself, JK and Dave Roche on our first trip to LA in 2000 got to roll with Marc Denny, He was a blue belt under the Machados at the time and pretty slick on the ground, gi and no gi. Seemed a little crazy but then everyone in LA is. :D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭Kent Brockman


    First of all Dave my comment was not in anyway directed at FMA (didn't know what that was til I googled it ) and I'm sorry if it annoyed you.

    I didnt see the program and having read the thread was merely offering my opinion on people learning to stab and slash, and beat other people with sticks. (it also seems that people can be seriously hurt while learning to do this?)

    It amazes me that when "SOME" MMA afficiandos castigate TMA for the lack of reality/level of bullsheet, they then have the gall to make comments like the above and this is certainly not the first time I've heard this type of comment.

    In fairness you dont know me and seem to have included me in some group that you have a beef against (as per above comment). I learn Bjj for fittness and enjoyment. Thats it.

    Finally the best "quote"! If you actually trained any FMA you would know there is a lot more to the training than weapon work, Panantukan is Filipino boxing, Sikaran is Filipino kicking, Yaw Yan is Filipino Muaythai and Dumog is Filipino grappling. Apart from all the above, if you knew anything about FMA, you would be aware that part of the weapon training improves/compliments your empty hand skills. A lot of those skills taught/learnt in weapons training can be applied to empty hand training.

    To this statement all I can say is that my post was specifically re learning and practicing how to fight with sticks and knives, nothing else.

    This is a forum where different people with different points of view and different backgrounds can discuss, debate and offer different opinions on particular subjects. It would be quite boring if we all agreed all the time.

    I ,as many others do, have my own opinions on many things which I have never trained in or practiced. This will not always concur with others and their opinions but I would like to think I can voice this opinion and listen to other different ones without disrespecting or being disrespected.

    Again this was not meant to disrespect you or what you practice, it is more of a lack of understanding on my part as to why people would want to hurt each other with sticks , or learn to fight with Knives.

    Thats all :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 255 ✭✭Scramble


    From Marc Denny :) :-
    Woof Gentlemen:

    To assist you in your search for what to make of what we do, in the middle of a busy day may I quickly offer the following?

    While I got an "executive producer" credit, that is more eye wash than anything else. The fact is that I had no control at all and there were some things in the piece which I did not care for at all and that my concerns were ignored.

    The selection of fight footage does give the impression received by many here: low-level MMA with sticks. Our "DB Gathering" is open to all levels and the fighting reflects that. The high level fights of the day were not shown by Nat Geo. Nor was I allowed to use a slo-mo explanation of even one sequence to help people appreciate the very high level of skill which is shown by the better fighters. Please forgive the advertisement, but for some visuals of technique in application, go to www.dogbrothers.com and click on the "Dos Triques" promo clip to see a modified version of the combination commonly known as "Redondo Three" repeatedly used in conjunction with different triangular footwork patterns. Would you have recognized any of that without it being broke down for you, let alone by watching the footage poorly selected by a clueless Holllywood weenie who thought the crashing and grappling more exciting? Bottom line-- Agreeing that the documentary offers no proof of what I say, I do assert that we have some seriously high quality fighters and fights.

    Concerning Krabi Krabong, it certainly has become part of the mix, but in my opinion the FMA overwhelmingly remain the main source. By the way, for those calling us "MMA with sticks" please consider that maybe the direction of history is the reverse-- Muay Thai (and its influence on MMA) came from Krabi Krabong, and there is a school of thought which thinks the shift from palm up boxing (John L Sullivan) to palm down of the modern era is due to the influence of Filipino Panajakman and related systems http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=206.0 As for what we do, the FMA have been fighting with these weapons long before there were martial arts tournaments and sport cage fights :-)

    As for the meaning and merit of it all, that is up to you and I intrude no further.

    The Adventure continues,
    Crafty Dog


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭Martin25


    Dave
    I should have added that I found that hitting people with sticks was rather therapeutic! Seriously though, the FMA are a great art and I have been practising them for more than 20 years.
    Martin


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭Dave Joyce


    Cool, must more positive second page, thanks for that guys. Wasn't looking for people to agree with me, just a case of each to his own and just having a bit of respect for each others viewpoint.

    Annoying thing is I have my issues with some Dog Bros stuff and moreso Denny himself, but here I found myself having to defend them:(. However, they ARE innovators and I will always repsect them for that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭Martin25


    Yea you can't really bull**** about how something won't workwhen someone is fighting hard like that!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,387 ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    As I understand it there is also a certain amount of "fight club" psychology/psychotherapy involved to in terms of "testing" oneself.

    I'm not sure I'd like to go that far but then again, they arent insisting I do :p

    So long as the combatants are:
    1. Mental competent
    2. Have seen examples of what they are getting themselves into
    3. Capable of defending themselves against their intended opponent (skillwise)

    then I'm not sure I would want anyone stopping them. I certainly don't want them to hit ME with those sticks thanks, but if they want to knock each other about to excise some pent up emotion, hey go nuts.

    DeV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    replace sticks with live blades and does your stance change?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭Martin25


    Impact weapons need more body torque and power behind them. Blades are a touch weapon and the stance tends to tighten up to cover the vital areas as much as possible ,having the hands open and waving about is for the movies!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,387 ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    replace sticks with live blades and does your stance change?
    No, actually it wouldnt. I would, though, insist on observation by third parties to ensure that the requirements I listed above are strictly enforced.

    I support voluntary euuthanasia too and I believe suicide should be decriminalised (if it hasnt already). Its your body, your life, I honestly believe you should be allowed to do what you want with it.

    I *would* consider anyone who participated to be idiots and selfish cnuts with no regard for the people who love them and have to pick up the pieces but thats their problem.
    I would have nothing to do with facilitating it, promoting it, or enabling it in any way. Thats *my* choice. After that, lop each others heads off if you want.

    DeV.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    I wasn't disputing their "right" to do this I just wanted to highlight the inherent silliness of it. I can't help but think there are very few dog sisters out there, this type of behaviour is really only something a group of lads can indulge themselves in.


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