Lets axe VRT in Lisbon II

Raiser

Why are Irish Citizens expected to pay around 40% more for a car in Ireland than the exact same car in other European Countries???????? The simple answer is because of a sneaky little predator tax called VRT which only exists in the type of country where your elected representatives spend more time in tribunals than in Governing the Country.

When you do pay this unfair, cynical and mean-spirited tax you are not done however - you cannot drive away satisfied that you have done your bit for Fianna Fails bank balance. You must then pay road tax, in the range of perhaps another €400-800+ and also unless you are planning on pushing the Worlds most expensive family saloon you must fill it up with Petrol/Diesel at a price per litre that has been inflated by $ cost per barrel of oil BUT then the Government steps in and adds its duties/VAT making it ludicrously expensive to fuel your car - each and every time you visit a petrol station; with each spend escalating monthly - just watch it.......

And all of these taxes don't even guarantee a decent road network - in fact a lot of routes between major Irish cities a about 9 feet wide and more patched than paved. What is sickening enough to send you into an MRSA ridden Fianna Fail Hospital however is that despite you paying to own and drive a car in Ireland today - If they do build a nice road or tunnel they have the audacity, and barefaced ignorant cheek to TOLL THE THING ?!?!?!?

When I was in primary school in the mid 80's [same as today - a damp prefab with abundant rat-holes] our Teacher explained to us how the EEC [as it was then] made so much sense.....Why frustrate and penalise each other with multiple taxes and tariffs, lets open our borders and trade freely with our European neighbours. VRT is unfair, unjust and a polar opposite of what any intelligent person would expect from a system such as our present European Union. When we are buried up to our eyebrows in European legislation which today covers every [blooming] thing up to and including plants and turf-cutting. You have to then ask why is VRT allowed to continue to exist when it is isolated to just the poor beaten down Irish consumer?

But what is worst of all is that WE LET THEM GET AWAY WITH IT....... But have we ever had a choice? Could we really have ever have made a stand? Would common sense, a fair case and a willingness to stand up for ourselves ever have faced down and ultimately defeated some self-enriching, lying, spineless, twitchy Fianna Fail man in a slick suit with more spin than Hotpoint telling well rehearsed lies into an RTE microphone?

Probably not, Bertie Ahern [retrospectively] or Cowen [today] would tell his minister/staff goons, to "handle it", talk it down and make it go away. And it would, the spin-doctors would make out that anti-VRT protesters were unwilling to pay their dues and help fund our Schools, Hospitals and infrastructure. But the dogs in the streets know who has really failed to support our school-children, hospital patients and PAYE paying Citizens as they sit in endless traffic and line up to pay their tolls.... So lets make a choice and just not accept it any more.

Lisbon II is forecast for some time in the first half of next year and if you ever wondered what Lisbon I or II could actually do for the Irish - then start wondering now. We already know what it can do to help Manuel, Gunter and Felipe sleep better in their Villas at night. Buts lets think about making some changes closer to home. Fianna Fail has bred the most miserable, ineffectual, embarrassingly feeble, sickeningly corrupt platform of any political regime [bar that of Mugabes Zimbabwe] in the World. Their incompetences and blind excesses have failed our people and are finally coming back to bite them. Think about how nice it would be to use the Lisbon II ballot slip as a means to having a fundamental injustice put right.

Lisbon II represents an opportunity for us to effect change, correct a cynical taxation blight and ease some of the hardship for consumers - so why turn down a good opportunity? Please add your voice and support our cause.......

Wreck

I heard that if you vote yes to Lisbon II you are guaranteeing an increase in VRT to 101%. And also dead babies.

humanji

Well I do like dead babies...

Adam

How?

biko

It seems OP is about to buy a car from the UK

Sherifu

Nice use of bold, underlining and colour. Pity it was so long, looks like a nice post.

smellslikeshoes

Think we are all a bit sick of hearing about Lisbon at this stage to be honest.

Eoin

You have to then ask why is VRT allowed to continue to exist when it is isolated to just the poor beaten down Irish consumer?

Because the Irish government have chosen to keep it. The EU is not in favour of VRT. Any ideas on how we would replace the cash it generates?

bill_ashmount

biko wrote: »

It seems OP is about to buy a car from the UK

lol

Dave!

Sherifu wrote: »

Nice use of bold, underlining and colour. Pity it was so long, looks like a nice post.

Steve_o

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Think we are all a bit sick of hearing about Lisbon at this stage to be honest.

+1

Also Lisbon II?? pfffft... I likes my democracy, the people have spoken.... there shouldn't be a "Ah yur only messin, do it again" scenario like what happened with the Nice Treaty....

ixoy

eoin_s wrote: »

Because the Irish government have chosen to keep it. The EU is not in favour of VRT. Any ideas on how we would replace the cash it generates?

Fire half the civil service - no harm to productivity and we'd have oodles more cash. Everyone's a winner!

kowloon

Make corruption and abuse of power in high up positions come under the umbrella of treason. Then throw every corrupt official into the slammer for a lifetime of pounding. What this has to do with Lisbon or VRT I don't know. But it's a good idea so I'm throwing it out there.

seandugg

ya, lets use VRT to decide which way you vote on lisbon 2... and then we should all vote in the next general elections based on the candidates star signs....

If it happens vote yes/no based on if you think it is a good or bad thing. Not on a single, out of context issue

Sam Vimes

seandugg wrote: »

ya, lets use VRT to decide which way you vote on lisbon 2... and then we should all vote in the next general elections based on the candidates star signs....

If it happens vote yes/no based on if you think it is a good or bad thing. Not on a single, out of context issue

i voted yes to lisbon because i like cheese. SAY YES TO CHEESE!!!

jester77

Anyone care to post a summary of all that or was it just a rant

Wazdakka

ixoy wrote: »

Fire half the civil service - no harm to productivity and we'd have oodles more cash. Everyone's a winner!

+1

In fact make all civil servants write a 1000 word essay with the title "justify yourself"

The essays wouldnt even have to be read... I think half of the CS would just quit instantly.

seandugg wrote: »

ya, lets use VRT to decide which way you vote on lisbon 2...

I think that for the general unwashed masses who ultimately mightn't understand or care about Lisbon but have voting power nonetheless, %40 off the price of a car with the impression of "Sticking it to those money robbing government ba$terds" would be more than enough to swing votes...

seandugg

Sam Vimes wrote: »

i voted yes to lisbon because i like cheese. SAY YES TO CHEESE!!!

The treaty didnt make enough provisions for provolone... you should have voted no so a better deal could be gotten

seandugg

Wazdakka wrote: »

+1

I think that for the general unwashed masses who ultimately mightn't understand or care about Lisbon but have voting power nonetheless, %40 off the price of a car with the impression of "Sticking it to those money robbing government ba$terds" would be more than enough to swing votes...

I see your point, but i cant see anybody realistically basing a campaign on this. The vast vast majority, after all the campaigning of lisbon 1, peoplewould realise that it isnt about VRT and it would crazy to make a decision on it based on VRT

For Jester: Some of it made sense(vote no to lisbon to lower VRT) but most of it was a big anti Fianna Fail rant

Sam Vimes

seandugg wrote: »

The treaty didnt make enough provisions for provolone... you should have voted no so a better deal could be gotten

phew. thanks for that. i really dodged the bullet there. THANK YOU NO PEOPLE for saving me after i made an ill-informed vote against my favourite cheese

provolone for some. miniature EU flags for others

Wazdakka

Kevo

If they get rid of it they will have to tax it in some other way.

Raiser

eoin_s wrote: »

Because the Irish government have chosen to keep it. The EU is not in favour of VRT.

[?] Perhaps I wasn't clear on this point Eoin, but yes, obviously VRT is our own home-grown lingering sore. VRT could be easily compared to a protection racket for the mob - sneaky, dishonest, and working daily to steal wads of ca$h from honest folks and deliver it to a bunch of crooks

eoin_s wrote: »

Any ideas on how we would replace the cash it generates?

Where do you see this money being spent? I challenge anyone to provide some proof, ANY proof that our duly paid tax revenues are currently being managed effectively. Our hospitals are festering and failing the ill, our schools are crumbling over the heads our youth and people are happy to pay approx 350K [Ex. Dub. - I can't even believe those figures] for 50% of a single house in which the Builders felt justified in adding two front doors.....

Nah.......I'd say they should abolish VRT and then balance the books by making 93.68% of our desk-sloth Civil Servants redundant - In the real World you cannot afford to have 11 personnel, 6 managers and a 3 safety officials observing on every one staff position - and then running off afterwards to claim overtime for the whole botched operation :rolleyes:

seandugg

U are some man for the ranting and raving.what has that got to do with lisbon? nothing you crazy man

SimpleSam06

ixoy wrote: »

Fire half the civil service - no harm to productivity and we'd have oodles more cash. Everyone's a winner!

kowloon wrote: »

Make corruption and abuse of power in high up positions come under the umbrella of treason. Then throw every corrupt official into the slammer for a lifetime of pounding. What this has to do with Lisbon or VRT I don't know. But it's a good idea so I'm throwing it out there.

Filled and rich with juicy, nutritious win.

Guy:Incognito

eoin_s wrote: »

Because the Irish government have chosen to keep it.

We're also not the only "poor, downtrodden etc etc". Other countries have VRT too , some with higher rates than us.


+1 here for dead babies btw.


Erroneus reasons to vote yes/no ftw!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!oneoneone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!eleventyeleven!!!!!!!!!!

Wazdakka

Stekelly wrote: »

We're also not the only "poor, downtrodden etc etc". Other countries have VRT too , some with higher rates than us.

Just out of interest...

Anybody know what is the most expensive EU state to drive in??

Average cost of car + VRT + Road Tax + Insurance + Petrol price + road tolls + congestion charges... ect

I'd be fairly interested to see some numbers..

I wouldn't be surprised if were right up there near the top...

Corruptedmorals

Ha my dad used to work in VRT, impounding cars etc. It was usually Mercs, Ferrarris, Porsches, Lotuses and other high-end cars that would dodge VRT. He got to drive the Monk's Hummer once, to be impounded:D

darkman2

What if the EU offers to pay all our VRT's in Ireland forever in exchange for a Yes vote? Make it so Mr Cowen.

skywalker

seandugg wrote: »

U are some man for the ranting and raving.what has that got to do with lisbon? nothing you crazy man

Thats pretty much my impression after reading the post. Theres a lot of nice emotive rhetoric in there but I missed the part where you explain what VRT has to do with Lisbon?

Raiser

skywalker wrote: »

Thats pretty much my impression after reading the post. Theres a lot of nice emotive rhetoric in there but I missed the part where you explain what VRT has to do with Lisbon?

Did you not see Brian Cowen crying and whimpering like a hormonal Offaly Schoolgirl when the Irish Farmers Association (IFA) barely indicated that they might choose to instruct their members to vote no to Lisbon just prior to referendum day???

The Farmers have clearly got years of experience in managing the behaviour of big, dumb, creatures and in this case they proved it adeptly.

The IFA has a few members who were willing to show some conviction and vote in accordance with their beliefs - it was enough to scare the sh|te out of Cowen and make him gag on his morning bowl of calf nuts.

Do you not think that voters can exercise considerable power in numbers if they have the presence of mind to make their wishes clear and demonstrate a willingness to reject a referendum that refuses to amend a thieving injustice that the dishonest Government has simply refused to remove?

Sam Vimes

right so we're back to voting no because of all the things it didn't do. Well it also didn't declare world peace and outlaw rudeness. Are they reasons not to vote for it?

Dinter

Was talking to my dad over the weekend and he said that scrapping VRT was one of the referendum promises made when we joined the EU!!

ART6

Kevo wrote: »

If they get rid of it they will have to tax it in some other way.

Or perhaps (wishful thinking here) cut out government waste, quangoes that breed beyond control, ministers that couldn't run a pi$$ up in Guinnness' brewery, infrastructure schemes that run over budget by several orders of magnititude, and pay levels for ministers and TDs that are among the highest in the western world for the least amount of time actually working.

Ain't going to happen. So I suggest that I and a few like minded individuals club together and buy an uninhabited island in the South Pacific, where we can live a life free from politicians, the EU, and the Kyoto Protocol. Interested? -- Sign here.

What's that got to do with the thread? F**k all, but it's better of my chest:D

loobylou

Great OP, unfortunately will not be taken seriously enough here. We WILL be made to vote again, we WILL have to vote yes, indeed we will vote yes but we might as well get as much as we can for it.
The Lisbon Treaty will never be re-negotiated to appease a country the size of us.The best that will happen will be some cosmetic derogations on (non!) issues like neutrality or abortion.
Where we can make real change here is by saying to our government that to truly embrace the idea of a single market as the EU is supposed to be, illegal taxes under EU law, (dressed up as a "registration fee") should be done away with. Then we'll see how "European" our politicians are!
Lets vote for a Europe of equals.

Dord

Sherifu wrote: »

Nice use of bold, underlining and colour. Pity it was so long, looks like a nice post.

+1


That post is too long for me to read, can someone sum it up with a humorous lolcat picture?

Guy:Incognito

Dord wrote: »

+1


That post is too long for me to read, can someone sum it up with a humorous lolcat picture?

Have a root about for a pic of 100 dead babies, that should cover it.

AckwelFoley

i heard that they were going to lower the age of concent to 11 if the lisbon 2 is passed, according to declan ganley. Libertas also said that we'll have to let more blacks in to take our wimmens and bikes...and that if we vote yes, we will have to rename our state "englands bitch"

We must vote no!

Because libertas said so..

...and libertas only deal with facts

seandugg

Raiser wrote: »

Do you not think that voters can exercise considerable power in numbers if they have the presence of mind to make their wishes clear and demonstrate a willingness to reject a referendum that refuses to amend a thieving injustice that the dishonest Government has simply refused to remove?

not if you are the one leading them sir

recycle

seandugg wrote: »

not if you are the one leading them sir

Excellently written piece of work op.

Aside from the one or two genunely funny posts, the remainder appear to be quite negative in the traditional boards.ie vein.

Its most likely the case that it was seandugg et al who voted the monkeys back in.

Wud be a progressive move.

Top idea budgie.

-Chris-

I have 2 problems with this proposal:

1) When you abolish this source of revenue for the government, with what will you replace it?

2) When you reduce the prices of ALL new cars massively (sounds like a good idea) and cause a collapse in the used car values (assets which actual people own), leaving hundreds of thousands of people in negative equity (exposing the lending banks massively), what do you think the eventual consequences will be?


I've seen loads of my potential customers extremely disappointed by how much money their trade-ins have lost due to the changes in new car pricing.
I'm one of the hundreds of car salespeople who stand to lose their jobs due to the massive slowdown in car sales due to the changes in VRT.
Loads of construction personnel have already suffered this fate due to the general economic slowdown.
Firing loads of civil servants won't help things either. The government is the single biggest employer in the country. The best way to prop up the country is by employing MORE people, not less!


Things are f'ed up enough already without more ham-fisted armchair economics.


And what VRT has to do with the Lisbon Treaty that we've already voted on, I don't know.

I don't believe people voted against the Lisbon Treaty because of VRT, I think other issues were the hot buttons. Do you not think that it would be a better investment in time to (in the possible event of Lisbon II) address those hot buttons specifically rather than bring in yet another emotive issue to muddy the waters...


WALOB!

Raiser

I was disappointed by this outright cull of a thread designed to raise awareness of this in the Motors Forum:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=56416354#post56416354

Peasant wrote:

Classic fail

VRT and the Lisbon treaty have nothing to do with each other (and should have nothing to do with each other)

Thread closed ...non starter.

Take it to politics (if you must)

Hence this complaint on the feedback Forum where people are encouraged give out about the evil Boards.ie unfair machine :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055325461

If you're with me then please help out and speak up, because the closed minded "hey guys! lets not make a scene", conservative few seem to be the vocal entity here.........:(

-Chris-

In all fairness, you're making a policital arguement in the motors forum, where we discuss motors.

The mod killed it and I support him.

I did come here and make my response though, out of respect for your arguement and my feeling that you're incorrect.

Keep it here. Motors is for motors.

cantdecide

Poor OP- you're right, brother. I estimate that 50% of your total motoring expenses go to the taxman.



It's one of the greatest tricks ever to make the electorate (I'm talking to the sheep in the focus and corollas here especially) to not give a b*llocks about getting screwed.

I have never known a more twisted, unjust and relentless RANGE OF TAXES that are imposed on all of us. When someone tries to inform and mobilise the ignorant, everyone just joins in a chorus of what's yer man goin on about! As if your poxy focus should cost €24k. That's a result for corruption IMO.




I DON'T CARE WHAT WE HAVE TO ATTACH IT TO- DOWN WITH VRT/ HIGH ROAD TAXES/ VAT/ FUEL EXCISE DUTY and on and on and on. It should be forever on the lips of a public transportless, outraged, coralled and car dependant nation.


(PS, the difference should be made by a 1% increase in the standard PAYE rates because it should never have been lowered in the first place. Quietly eliminating stealth taxes should be favoured over headline grabbing we're all going to be rich miniscule drops in PAYE that mean nothing to no one)

Raiser

AudiChris wrote: »

In all fairness, you're making a policital arguement in the motors forum, where we discuss motors.

The mod killed it and I support him.

I did come here and make my response though, out of respect for your arguement and my feeling that you're incorrect.

Keep it here. Motors is for motors.

VRT accounts for 40% of the price of the average motoring punters motor.

- If a motoring fan ever, EVER, E V E R, bought a car without having first considered the price of said vehicle in alignment of their own metric for price/performance/quality/satisfaction then I have yet to meet, hear of, or even imagine them.

40% on the forecourt price of a motor has no place on a Motors discussion platform? - You wouldn't happen to have a vested interest/yacht at stake here AudiChris?

Guy:Incognito

cantdecide wrote: »

I DON'T CARE WHAT WE HAVE TO ATTACH IT TO- DOWN WITH VRT/ HIGH ROAD TAXES/ VAT/ FUEL EXCISE DUTY and on and on and on. It should be forever on the lips of a public transportless, outraged, coralled and car dependant nation.

We pay a relatively low tax on fuel and dont have the highest Vat rates, but if we get rid of VRT we will catch up on others in the various other taxes.

I (and plenty of others) would rather have the choice of whether to pay VRT than to have to pay higher income tax and suffer various other tax hikes.

NiSmO

This post has been deleted.

Raiser

NiSmO wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Hey!!! I have a button here for posters that like to pi$$ €4-5,000 into the wind, I call it my "Idiot" button - but very recently I've had to consider changing it to my "Ignore" button - just to save faith in humanity at large

Esel

Raiser wrote: »

I was disappointed by this outright cullnt of a thread designed to raise awareness of this in the Motors Forum.......:(

Fixed that for you. So was I, btw.

drunkmonkey

Raiser wrote: »

Think about how nice it would be to use the Lisbon II ballot slip as a means to having a fundamental injustice put right.

Lisbon II represents an opportunity for us to effect change, Please add your voice and support our cause.......

What your saying is that we the people should stand up and treaten the govenment with another no vote to get some handle on the price of goods and services in this country......

I know what you getting at but the only way to fix the problem is a complete overhaul of our political process...

Were foolishly voting for political parties, we need to field independent canidates all over the country in the next general election, we can completely overthrow the current regeime in one fowl swoop....

I think they call it a Velvet Revolution....

Count me in!!

Vote Drunkmonkey! No1 !
Your Voice against VRT & Alcohol Tax in the Mid West!:D

randylonghorn

Raiser wrote: »

Hey!!! I have a button here for posters that like to pi$$ €4-5,000 into the wind, I call it my "Idiot" button - but very recently I've had to consider changing it to my "Ignore" button - just to save faith in humanity at large

Ever occur to you that not everybody buys / owns a car?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

we need to field independent canidates all over the country in the next general election, we can completely overthrow the current regeime in one fowl swoop....

So Dustin will be standing again then? ¬_¬