Are muslim men that bad ?

DinoBot

This recent article calls for the muslim women to forsake bright lipstick and noisy high heels in an effort to preserve their dignity and avoid rape

Now I dont know the link between lipstick and rape but my question is, are the Muslim men so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick ??

No wonder alot of muslims are leaving their "Islamic" countries to live in the west.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/24/malaysia.religion

Jannah

There are a lot of weirdos out there, both muslim and non muslim. I ran into (or should I say, was followed to the bathroom by) a muslim man from Tunisia on my holidays in Italy and the dude was a alcohol drinking and serving, daily pork eating, woman chasing scumbag. And he's pretty damn adamant he's a muslim. The only other Muslim male I know thinks that 9/11 is the best thing since sliced bread and thinks he's above even the people he hangs out with.

... Yep, so one could say that I've only seen the 'Bad' Muslim men, but I would be very delighted if I actually met a 'Good' one.

the_new_mr

They are two black sheep.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote: »

They are two black sheep.

I think the whole "Authorities in Kota Bharu" acount for more than two :D

panda100

DinoBot wrote: »

No wonder alot of muslims are leaving their "Islamic" countries to live in the west.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/24/malaysia.religion

Facts/figures please to back this up???

Many islamic countries such as Iraq (pre US-invasion) and Lebanon are much more forward then western countries when It comes to women rights and womens issues.
This article is just another fine example of sensationalist anti-islam propoganda.The western media has a lot to answer for when it comes to the increasing islamaphobic sentiment in the west.

hivizman

panda100 wrote: »

This article is just another fine example of sensationalist anti-islam propoganda.The western media has a lot to answer for when it comes to the increasing islamaphobic sentiment in the west.

I didn't find the article particularly sensationalist. The writer didn't seem to be aware that the dislike of the Kota Bahru municipality for "heavy makeup, including bright lipstick" and "loud high-heel shoes" is based on a common interpretation of the verse in the Qur'an that describes what women should do to guard their modesty - Surah Al-Nur 24:31, which says in part:

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; . . . and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments.

This verse is interpreted in different ways, and the Kota Bahru city officials have taken a strict approach, which seems to be a fairly common approach among stricter interpreters (see for example this opinion from a fairly conservative Sunni website).

I agree with the original poster's criticism of the official's argument that this interpretation of female modesty is designed to reduce the likelihood of rape. It is significant that, in the Qur'an, men are told first, before women (in the verse before the one from which I quoted) to lower their gaze and guard their modesty, so men need to get their acts together as much as, if not more than, women. The Kota Bahru official's comment blames women for the crimes of men, which is in my opinion completely unacceptable.

the_new_mr

Agree with all that.

jimmycrackcorm

when it comes to women, men have no religion.

Caverna

DinoBot.

I feel sorry for your ignorance.

Asking if Muslim men are out of control is like asking if Irish men are out of control.

Your question could not be more vague,general,offensive,insulting,lacking in knowledge of Malaysian and Islamic culture or downright stupid.

Grow up.

You know full well that not all Muslim men are salivating animals who will rape anyone with lipstick.

They are like all other men, ALL AROUND THIS WORLD. We all have our temptations but we all are able to deal with them appropriately.

Instead of consulting boards.ie, perhaps you should consult the Malaysian embassy or do some research for yourself. Meet with Malaysians, talk with them.

Otherwise, why bother posting? It really is just sensationalist nonsense.

DinoBot

I agree with you hivizman.

I think its a sad state that these rules are being placed as a n extra burton on women living in Islamic countries. If the men were actually forced to live by the rules that are given to them we would not see the need for this.

panda100 wrote: »

Facts/figures please to back this up???

Many islamic countries such as Iraq (pre US-invasion) and Lebanon are much more forward then western countries when It comes to women rights and womens issues.
This article is just another fine example of sensationalist anti-islam propoganda.The western media has a lot to answer for when it comes to the increasing islamaphobic sentiment in the west.

Can you give ONE example of an Islamic law which gives more rights to a woman than we have here in the "west" please.

Caverna wrote:

You know full well that not all Muslim men are salivating animals who will rape anyone with lipstick.

They are like all other men, ALL AROUND THIS WORLD. We all have our temptations but we all are able to deal with them appropriately.

Then why are all the rules and regulations to stop rape always centered around restricting the freedoms of women. I dont see the solution to rape in Ireland as being for women to stop going out wearing lipstick. I don't think the wearing of lipstick would cause a man to rape a women but in the article I posted that was the reason given. How was that sensationalist nonsense ? Are you saying the article is false ??

"Women in a northern Malaysian city ruled by conservative Islamists are being urged to forsake bright lipstick and noisy high heels in an effort to preserve their dignity and avoid rape"
-- so what does this say about the state of the men of that country ?? If they are not that bad why have the ruling ?
Is it needed ? Do you think it will reduce rape in the country ?

irishconvert

DinoBot wrote: »

This recent article calls for the muslim women to forsake bright lipstick and noisy high heels in an effort to preserve their dignity and avoid rape

Now I dont know the link between lipstick and rape but my question is, are the Muslim men so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick ??

No wonder alot of muslims are leaving their "Islamic" countries to live in the west.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/24/malaysia.religion

Can you tell us how many of the Muslim men you know who are like this?

irishconvert

Jannah wrote: »

There are a lot of weirdos out there, both muslim and non muslim. I ran into (or should I say, was followed to the bathroom by) a muslim man from Tunisia on my holidays in Italy and the dude was a alcohol drinking and serving, daily pork eating, woman chasing scumbag. And he's pretty damn adamant he's a muslim. The only other Muslim male I know thinks that 9/11 is the best thing since sliced bread and thinks he's above even the people he hangs out with.

... Yep, so one could say that I've only seen the 'Bad' Muslim men, but I would be very delighted if I actually met a 'Good' one.

I'm confused. Didn't you say before that you are a Muslim? How is it that you do not know any Muslim men?

damnyanks

I'm living in the UK so there are a few muslim people in the office. Basically the attitude of not wearing bright lipstick , high heels, tight clothing and what not boils down to the fact that women arent really meant to be noticed sexually.

They say this is because they wont get married until 25 - 26ish usually and if following religion wont have had sex.

So just imagine the attidue in Ireland maybe 40 years ago.

DinoBot

irishconvert wrote: »

Can you tell us how many of the Muslim men you know who are like this?

If its zero how could the new law help avoid rape for the women ?

irishconvert

DinoBot wrote: »

If its zero how could the new law help avoid rape for the women ?

Why are you avoiding my question? Do you know any Muslim men? And if so do you think they are "so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick"?

DinoBot

irishconvert wrote: »

Why are you avoiding my question? Do you know any Muslim men? And if so do you think they are "so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick"?

Of course I know many muslims men, my best friend is a muslim :rolleyes: You always assume people "attack" Islam out of lasck of understanding of the religion. I have read Quran at least 5 times cover to cover. I would know by hearth at 6 chapters (the small ones of course) Plus I have read countless books on Hadith and legal aspect of Islam. As you are are quite new to Islam, and judging on your previous posts, I would even bet my knowledge is better than yours !

The article stated that "in an effort to preserve their dignity and avoid rape. Authorities in Kota Bharu have distributed pamphlets recommending that Muslim women do not wear heavy makeup and loud shoes when they go out to work in restaurants or other public places."

So, rape is done by men, and here is being said it will be reduced if the women stop wearing lipstick !!!

My question, if you take time to listen, is simple.

How will this reduce rape ? Are the men so bad there that if they see a women wearing lipstick they think its okay to rape her ? And if they see a women with no lipstick then they wont ??

Even my title was a question !!

tbh

irishconvert wrote: »

do you think they are "so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick"?

well obviously, the authorities who passed the law must think that there is at least SOME relationship between women wearing lipstick and getting raped, otherwise they would not have passed the law. Before we proceed, can you at least accept that point? To clarify, I personally do not believe that muslim men will rape women because they are wearing lipstick, but I believe that passing a law like this sends out the message that those IN CHARGE - those responsible for passing the law - must at some level believe this.

Dudess

Yeah, of course not all Muslim men are gonna feel compelled to rape a girl because she's wearing lipstick and high heels, but apparently they are, according to advocates of this recommendation - the old "they're men, they cannot control it, it's up to the woman to ensure it doesn't happen" mentality.

Pretty insulting to Muslim men really...

tbh

"we could either impose a mandatory 20-year sentence for anyone found guilty of rape, or we can impose a ban on women who wear lipstick".

hivizman

In February last year, there was a story about an Islamic scholar in Malaysia who recommended that women should wear chastity belts to protect themselves from rapists. This caused a lot of stir, with the Malaysian government rejecting the proposal out of hand, and the scholar later claimed that he'd just been joking. A Malaysian organisation called Sisters in Islam asked:

Would it not make sense to raise awareness among men and educate them on how to prevent violence against women rather than blame and control all women for the behaviour of certain men?

A useful discussion of gender issues in Islam that can be downloaded from various places on the Internet, including here is the book Gender Equity in Islam: Basic Principles by Jamal Badawi. There is a detailed discussion of Islam's attitude to physical chastisement (beating) of women in note 14. Reading this, I sense that the verse in the Qur'an (Surah Al-Nisa 4:34) that is often taken as permitting husbands to beat their wives, and various hadith apparently going in the same way, are embarrassments to modern liberal Muslim scholars.

There's a very depressing report here on violence to women in various Muslim countries. Although it dates back to 1993, I sadly have no reason to believe that the situation is any different today.

But is Islam the villain here or is it the patriarchal societies in which Islam seems to be abused as an excuse for violence towards women?

tbh

I think in this case, as in all religions, the word of God is good, it's just mans interpretation of it that's the problem.

Dudess

Yep, like Christianity.

Jannah

irishconvert wrote: »

I'm confused. Didn't you say before that you are a Muslim? How is it that you do not know any Muslim men?

Keep up with the times, buddy and re-read the roll call!
I do know Muslim men, I just have yet to meet a 'good' one

Caverna

Jannah wrote: »

Keep up with the times, buddy and re-read the roll call!
I do know Muslim men, I just have yet to meet a 'good' one

Well you must have never travelled outside your front door!
Also, how do you know if a person that you have met is Muslim or not?

irishconvert

DinoBot wrote: »

Of course I know many muslims men, my best friend is a muslim :rolleyes: You always assume people "attack" Islam out of lasck of understanding of the religion.

The reason I asked you if you know any Muslim men is that I would like you to judge Muslims by the ones you know, not by some article you read, that may or may not be true, about some Muslims in a city in Malaysia. In your own experience are Muslim men as you put it "so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick"? Is that what you think?

DinoBot wrote: »

I have read Quran at least 5 times cover to cover. I would know by hearth at 6 chapters (the small ones of course) Plus I have read countless books on Hadith and legal aspect of Islam. As you are are quite new to Islam, and judging on your previous posts, I would even bet my knowledge is better than yours !

Perhaps it is, fair play to you.

DinoBot wrote: »

The article stated that "in an effort to preserve their dignity and avoid rape. Authorities in Kota Bharu have distributed pamphlets recommending that Muslim women do not wear heavy makeup and loud shoes when they go out to work in restaurants or other public places."

So, rape is done by men, and here is being said it will be reduced if the women stop wearing lipstick !!!

My question, if you take time to listen, is simple.

How will this reduce rape ? Are the men so bad there that if they see a women wearing lipstick they think its okay to rape her ? And if they see a women with no lipstick then they wont ??

Even my title was a question !!

Ok, to answer your question I don't think this will reduce rape. I think severe punishment to the men that commit rape is what will reduce it. The Qur'an teaches that women should dress modestly. If they choose to ignore this rule then it is their own decision, it should not be forced on them by authorities. And they way they dress is no excuse for them to be raped.

Now please your own question with regard to the Muslims you know. Are they "so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick"?

irishconvert

Jannah wrote: »

Keep up with the times, buddy and re-read the roll call!
I do know Muslim men, I just have yet to meet a 'good' one

I find that hard to believe. You must not have met many Muslim men.

Jannah

irishconvert wrote: »

I find that hard to believe. You must not have met many Muslim men.

I have met 6 so believe it. All six (and I am talking of these 6 alone and not for the entire muslim male community) were either complete extremists, disrespectful of women or else picked and chose from the religion like a little buffet and ignored the bits they found difficult (like drinking alcohol... but of course, you wouldn't know anything about that, no?)

Like I said before, these are only the men I have met and I am not dismissing the idea that there are better out there. It's just fairly difficult to summon an image of something you've never experienced for your self.

DinoBot

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok, to answer your question I don't think this will reduce rape. I think severe punishment to the men that commit rape is what will reduce it. The Qur'an teaches that women should dress modestly. If they choose to ignore this rule then it is their own decision, it should not be forced on them by authorities.

So you disagree with it being Law in muslims countries ? I thoughts the prophet made it law for women to be covered up, and an oblicgation on ALL muslims women ?

irishconvert wrote: »

Now please your own question with regard to the Muslims you know. Are they "so out of control that they will rape a women for wearing lipstick"?

I would like to think I have NEVER met anyone capable of such a crime.

I have met many from all over the world and one thing I have seen is that muslims in the west can be more respectful of women BUT I have met many of the complete opposite as well. speak to any woman from Egypt for example and ask them are they safe to walk out alone at night.

I think when a law is brought in to reduce rape by making the women dress differently it speaks volumes about the view of women. You may not think a link between lipstick wearing lipstick and rape exists but the people bringing in that law MUST have.
They must have felt if a man saw a woman wearing lipstick it could incise him to rape. Else why bring in the law in the first place ?
Why do you think the Law was being passed ?

sameerrend

Jannah wrote: »

There are a lot of weirdos out there, both muslim and non muslim. I ran into (or should I say, was followed to the bathroom by) a muslim man from Tunisia on my holidays in Italy and the dude was a alcohol drinking and serving, daily pork eating, woman chasing scumbag. And he's pretty damn adamant he's a muslim. The only other Muslim male I know thinks that 9/11 is the best thing since sliced bread and thinks he's above even the people he hangs out with.

... Yep, so one could say that I've only seen the 'Bad' Muslim men, but I would be very delighted if I actually met a 'Good' one.

Hi Jannah,

In regards to what your view is to some of the muslim men. Its what you go looking for, for example you went for your holidays in Italy, I can only assume you were dressed to impress and you were in a club or bar, to be attracting men of that sort. I dont judge people but I know there good and bad people out there, if your looking for good muslim men, look for them in the right places.

Samir

Jannah

sameerrend wrote: »

Hi Jannah,

In regards to what your view is to some of the muslim men. Its what you go looking for, for example you went for your holidays in Italy, I can only assume you were dressed to impress and you were in a club or bar, to be attracting men of that sort. I dont judge people but I know there good and bad people out there, if your looking for good muslim men, look for them in the right places.

Samir

Nope, in fact I was having dinner with my parents in a hotel and when I went to the bathroom I was followed by the dude who tried to force himself on me. Also, I really don't think how I am dressed should make any influence on the respect I am owed by others and for the record, I was n't wearing something that was letting it all hang out- evening dinner with elderly parents.... enough said!! This guy worked in the hotel, and continued to follow me for the entirity of the holiday and it was only when I complained to the manager that he explained about who he was (he just got there from Tunisia and was very peculiar but he still gave him an official warning). The other muslims I have met through school, which isn't exactly the seediest places to meet people!! All I am saying is that I have yet to meet a muslim male that I could in any way like as a human being, but that is not to say they are not out there.

humanji

A man tried to rape you and you didn't mention it until later in the holiday? And the only action you took was to inform the manager?

the_new_mr

Yeah, that probably wasn't a very good move on your part Jannah. Immediate and effective action is the best advice for such a situation.

And you live in Cork, right? I happen to know for a fact that there are plenty of good Muslim men there. I've met plenty of good Muslim men and plenty of bad Muslim men. Thank God, I've met more good Muslim men than bad and I've met literally thousands so you could say that my "sample" is more statistically representative of the entire Muslim population.

tbh

Jannah wrote: »

I have met 6 so believe it. All six (and I am talking of these 6 alone and not for the entire muslim male community) were either complete extremists, disrespectful of women or else picked and chose from the religion like a little buffet and ignored the bits they found difficult (like drinking alcohol... but of course, you wouldn't know anything about that, no?)

Just to add a bit of balance, I travel extensively with work, and I work a lot in Muslim countries. I must say, that I've never met a Muslim who wasn't thoughtful, gentle, caring and kind etc etc. I know you are not denying their existence, I just want to put that out there. Recently on a trip I met a muslim woman who didn't shake hands with men - obviously I didn't know that and actually took her hand instead of doing an "air-shake" - there was absolutely no fuss made about this at all, everyone laughed and when I apologised the girl went out of her way to make me feel like it didn't matter. There was no expectation on me to live by their rules, no judgement of me and it really didn't matter what religion I was or wasn't, it just didn't come into it at all.

It just goes to show that people can believe whatever they want to believe, it's only when they expect others to believe the same that problems are caused.

Jannah

humanji wrote: »

A man tried to rape you and you didn't mention it until later in the holiday? And the only action you took was to inform the manager?

Took him aside and told him, yes, and he was the only person I cared to tell, since he followed the dude aswell when he saw him stalking off. Other than a bit of ranting on his part, he was there for the entirity of the holiday. Not exactly much one can do after, is there? I mean, its over and done with, you've gotta get on with it.

the_new_mr wrote: »

And you live in Cork, right? I happen to know for a fact that there are plenty of good Muslim men there. I've met plenty of good Muslim men and plenty of bad Muslim men. Thank God, I've met more good Muslim men than bad and I've met literally thousands so you could say that my "sample" is more statistically representative of the entire Muslim population.

Who knows? Maybe you're right? Maybe I've just had very, very bad luck with the ole Muslims? But I can't deny that it has made me more resentful of Muslims as a whole, which is sad because I don't like disliking people before knowing them but at this stage its fairly automatic because of how often it happens that the ones I have encountered are off their heads. It's a pity because it's so harmful on the wider Islam community to have people like that representing them every day.

the_new_mr

It's quite ironic that you blame others for being so closed-minded when you yourself are being quite closed minded about this. To "paint everyone with the same brush" despite being told by others (Muslims and non-Muslims alike) that the six people you have met are not representative of the general population is not only closed minded but also dangerous. If you want the world to be a better place, you could perhaps start with trying to be more open to the possibility that not everyone is as bad as the bad guy you met.

Jannah

the_new_mr wrote: »

If you want the world to be a better place, you could perhaps start with trying to be more open to the possibility that not everyone is as bad as the bad guy you met.

guys - plural. Yes, its something I work on but in fairness, if there were better representitives of the religion out there, there wouldn't be bad prejudices against them

the_new_mr

Jannah wrote:

guys - plural.

Yes. You're right. It was a full six people

Jannah wrote:

if there were better representitives of the religion out there, there wouldn't be bad prejudices against them

There are and you are intelligent enough to know that most of the bad prejudice against Islam and Muslim is media and fear inspired.

Jannah

the_new_mr wrote: »

Yes. You're right. It was a full six people

Lol, I sense sarcasm! :P *picks up staff* "Gather members of the Ummah and be interviewed by the weird Corkonian!"

the_new_mr wrote: »

There are and you are intelligent enough to know that most of the bad prejudice against Islam and Muslim is media and fear inspired.

True, I just don't think people should be blamed for having a negative view of Muslims with all that is out there at the moment. Nobody in my school year has a positive image of Islam now because of that fanatical muslim in my year- its a great pity for everyone involved because people are slow to change their minds

Caverna

you should keep your mind open.

I was so close to almost possibly getting worked up aboout you but the_new_mr put his post so eloquently that I thought, yeah i'm not gonna bother getting worked up.

I'm terribly sorry to say this to you Jannah but you are not a very open person. Come on, shake off your naive prejudices. They will only cause anger, resentment and unjust stereotypes.

This is not the only forum you are on and criticizing Islam, and criticism is good, but in your case you are just spurting nagative destructive criticism that slanders 750 MILLION MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will please hope you reconsider your views as a whole new wonderful world will open up to you.

By the way I have a theory as to why you haven't met any nice Muslims.
It is because you have such a negative view of them that you are not open to meeting them or believeing they are nice.

I implore you to please not reply and tell me "I do try to keep my mind open" because I believe that you will be lying-you said yourself that you have a negative impression of Muslims.

Also, you must be the unluckiest person in the world to have never encountered a nice Muslim! They're a dime a dozen!

the_new_mr

Caverna wrote:

I was so close to almost possibly getting worked up aboout you but the_new_mr put his post so eloquently that I thought, yeah i'm not gonna bother getting worked up.

Thanks. Don't think I'm any Shakespeare though

Caverna wrote:

Also, you must be the unluckiest person in the world to have never encountered a nice Muslim! They're a dime a dozen!

Are you saying we're cheap or something??!!!

Jannah wrote:

Lol, I sense sarcasm! :P *picks up staff* "Gather members of the Ummah and be interviewed by the weird Corkonian!"

Bring it

Jannah wrote:

True, I just don't think people should be blamed for having a negative view of Muslims with all that is out there at the moment. Nobody in my school year has a positive image of Islam now because of that fanatical muslim in my year- its a great pity for everyone involved because people are slow to change their minds

I know what you're saying. It is a shame that that guy is so fanatical (although this is not the correct use of the word since the true meaning of fanatical is not necessarily something bad). But, as Caverna says, people should go out and educate themselves. If I didn't educate myself a little bit, I'd think that Sikhism is all about growing your hair and being violent with everyone and beating your wife (ever seen a Bollywood movie when you were seven?? It's scary stuff).

Just like it is my responsibility to shake off negative prejudices of Jews, the same goes for anyone who has negative prejudices of Muslims.

Victor

I'm wondering if ther eis any linguisitc or cultural (not necessarily religious) difference in the definition of rape. Are these law makers, for example, being very broad and including [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/philandering]philandering[/url] and rape under one law? Are salacious thoughts that aren't yet acts covered by the same law?

DinoBot wrote: »

They must have felt if a man saw a woman wearing lipstick it could incise him to rape.

I don't think wearing lipstick it could incite anyone, other than a very damaged mind, to commit rape. It might, however, be seen as a come-on that leads to inappropriate behaviour and a situation where a man doesn't know when to stop or when to listen to "no". Ever make a mistake as a teenager and do something completely inappropriate, even downright offensive, because you didn't know any better? Contrast that with dragging a strange woman down a lane and beating her senseless and raping her.

Its actually hard to see where the lines are, but we know:
* "dragging a strange woman down a lane and beating her senseless and raping her" is always wrong.
* "kissing and touching a consenting adult" is OK by modern western standards, but unacceptable to many religious people (of whatever religion) if is isn't between married people.

Imagine a situation where a man knows of a woman he likes for whatever reason. He approaches her father and asks for an introduction and if it was OK that they could have a chaperoned meal together. By modern western standards he is insulting the woman by not asking directly, but by other standards, he has probably raped her in his mind already for considering her marriage material.

There is an interesting scene in one of the The Godfather movie that shows a certain attitude in a ultra-conservative Catholic society. After Michael first sees Apollonia, his bodyguards make crude remarks about her, for which her father would have them killed. In a diplomatic moment, Michael apologies and ask would it be possibile to meet her after mass, the following Sunday, which is acceptable to the father.

Are societies all that different?

Jannah

Victor wrote: »

There is an interesting scene in one of the The Godfather movie that shows a certain attitude in a ultra-conservative Catholic society. After Michael first sees Apollonia, his bodyguards make crude remarks about her, for which her father would have them killed. In a diplomatic moment, Michael apologies and ask would it be possibile to meet her after mass, the following Sunday, which is acceptable to the father.

I was just watching that last night- weird!! Wouldn't it be brilliant if society actually was like that?! These days it seems very... crude... I don't know, it's very cut and dry, as in there's practically a one month rule in place for having sex with someone and if you bypass that- well, you're seen as frigid or a loser.

Ahhhh, come back Al Pacino!!!

Caverna wrote: »

you should keep your mind open.

Yes, and I'm making a concious effort to do so, but I'm just having a run of bad luck in who I do meet.

But you know what? I don't think the 'fanatical' guy was a truly bad fellow either. I think he's been in an environment that people have been telling him that such and such is a good thing for so long that he's started to believe it himself and really, none of us can escape the circumstances that we're born into. But there is a fairly 'good' person under it all- he took a whole breaktime just to talk to me about his religion, surely thats not a bad thing really

Rb

I spent some time in Egypt earlier in the year with my girlfriend and to be very, very honest, I wouldn't have let her out of my sight outside of the hotel.

Every man we encountered, with the exception of hotel/restaurant/tour guides, literally stared at her. They couldn't even address her to her face, they just stared at her chest. Even the police officers were making comments whilst we were going through the airport security checks, when walking about town we'd be approached by men who were eyeing her up and they'd come right up to us and make comments.

I'm sorry but "a few black sheep" is pure bullshít as far as I'm concerned. Again, with the exception of staff/wherever money was involved, my girlfriend wasn't shown any respect by men there.

An old housemate of mine lived over there for two years or so and told of times men would actually come up in public and cop a feel of his girlfriend, along with the rest.

This isn't acceptable and it's absolutely inexcusable. I would sincerely advise women to stay away from muslim countries unless they've a male escort for their entire time there.

We even had CHILDREN come up and make comments about her/eye her up/etc.

The staff pretty much everywhere were great but my God, if this is the shít that parents are passing down to their kids over there then they've only themselves to blame when people make comments about the religion and it's attitude towards women (i.e second class citizens in their own country).

I'd certainly go back again but as I said above, would never let the girlfriend out of my sight.

Jannah

Wow Rb, you're the first person who's been so honest about their experiences in a Muslim country!! Your poor girlfriend!! Although I think a lot of the staring isn't so much lust as it is their curiosity of a person who looks fairly different to them. When I was on holidays, random waiters would ramble on over and put their arm beside mine and exclaim at how white I was in comparison!! One even made the comment "I look like a Nigerian compared to you!" and another told me how much Italians love blue eyes because it is so different to what they have there. I really do think that a lot of it was just curiosity more than anything! Especially in a country where women cover up so much and usually have such a dark colouring, it’s a big change. But I do agree, their culture often leaves a lot to be desired, but I'm beginning to think it isn't a religion issue but a cultural one, although one does influence the other.

Caverna

Rb,

I think you need to distinguish between Egyptian and Muslim.

Find me the line in the Holy Qur'an that permits the groping of women and perverted staring at women.

Just because they are Egyptian does not automatically mean they are Muslim but I do accept that seeing as it is predominantly a Muslim country then the chances are that they are "Muslim" but obviously not observant Muslims.

If they were following the preachings of Islam they wouldn't be behaving that way towards your girlfriend.

People on this thread seem to really be struggling with the concept of distinguishing between the religion and the cultures and traditions.

(I'm not saying groping women is a tradition but the general staring and possible ill-treatment of women IS a CULTURAL thing and it is certainly NOT a religious thing.)

Rb

To be honest, the same people were then bowing to mecca a short time later (the rugs were set up in the airport).

It was also the case in Jordan, so to be honest it certainly was confined to the Egyptians. Although, certainly not to the same extent, it was actually mainly the male 7-25 year olds that were at it there. Our guide in Jordan also brought up the fact that they were Sunni muslims and that they were easier going/ more respectful on women, that there was no pressure to wear the burkah and that the majority didn't as a result.

I'm sure it's forbidden in the religion but I can't help but feel that it is a knock on effect from the muslim women wearing hi'jabs everywhere.

Interestingly enough, on that channel 4 programme the other night a muslim woman said that in Cairo the burkah/hijab wasn't worn until the late 1970s and that since then things seem to have gone somewhat backwards.

DenMan

I lived in Bolton for two years and got to know quite a good number of Muslim men and women. Never had any problems with them, in fact I made quite a good few friends over there. I also got invited over for dinner where we discussed the Bible and The Qur'an. Quite a very good chat I do remember. I would say misunderstood they are, especially the men. They are very reserved and polite. They are a very literal people and expect their women to adhere to the same rules as themselves.

hunnybunny

Caverna

Just because they are Egyptian does not automatically mean they are Muslim but I do accept that seeing as it is predominantly a Muslim country then the chances are that they are "Muslim" but obviously not observant Muslims.

Very good point here. Not all Egyptians are Muslim. In fact roughly 10% are Coptic Christians. In Lebanon there are even more Christians as well as minorities in Jordan, Palestine and Syria.
I have lived in the UAE for 1 year and I have met various Arabs both Muslims and Christians. I found both Muslim and Christian Arabs behaviour towards women VERY similar. I found some of the christian Arabs very strange and some were very leery. Believe me, its not confined to the Muslims.

In fact the one Muslim guy I ever met, who has total respect for women, doesn t drink, does his prayers etc was actually an EGYPTIAN. When I first met I assumed he drank and did all the other bad things just because he was Egyptian. I feel bad now as I made assumptions judging on all the other Egyptians I had met.

People on this thread seem to really be struggling with the concept of distinguishing between the religion and the cultures and traditions.

(I'm not saying groping women is a tradition but the general staring and possible ill-treatment of women IS a CULTURAL thing and it is certainly NOT a religious thing.)

Thats hit the nail on the head! People mix Arab culture and Islam! Aarbs are both Muslim and Christian and the two really are not fundamentally diffferent due to culture.
I was in Malayasia a predominantly Muslim country and I experienced zero harrassment, whereas as in Egypt I was followed everywhere. The difference between the two is culture and modernisation. Malayasia would be much more westernised and forward thinking than Egypt. No two Muslim countries are the same!

Caverna

Rb wrote: »

I'm sure it's forbidden in the religion but I can't help but feel that it is a knock on effect from the muslim women wearing hi'jabs everywhere.

That is based on a speculative presumption with no basis in truth whatsoever and is wholly damaging to Islam, the hijab and hijab wearers all around the world.

to suggest that young men have suddenly taken a liking to foreign ladies or even their own ladies and treated them disrespectfully is so wide of the mark it fathoms belief that you would put it forward as a possibility.

Men treating women stretches back a little bit further than the the 70's when hijab wearing took off in Egypt.

philologos

Jannah wrote: »

True, I just don't think people should be blamed for having a negative view of Muslims with all that is out there at the moment. Nobody in my school year has a positive image of Islam now because of that fanatical muslim in my year- its a great pity for everyone involved because people are slow to change their minds

I think it is the responsibility of mankind to resist making blanket statements based on one person and to look to the wider picture of it. True, there may be Islamic fanatics, but then again there are many people who follow Islam and who wish to embrace a tolerant view of people in society. Many people in society fall victim to intolerant views based on misinterpretations of texts, and many people fall victim to intolerant views based on things other than religion. It's down to those involved to be careful in what they are looking at to make sure they have the right perspective, and it's down to those who are observing to try not to generalise about a group of people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBI2zrtAeJ0

Watch from 4:50 onwards and see what harm generalising about Muslims has done in the UK.

hivizman

Thanks for this video, Jakkass. Did you catch the recent "muslim outrage" story in Scotland, where Tayside Police apologised for causing offence by using a picture of a dog (allegedly a "ritually unclean" animal) sitting in a police hat as part of a campaign to publicise a new phone number?