Barry or Wayne

walshb

In a recent discussion I asked a poster to put up a poll to see who rates the better by the
BOARDS posters. Taking into account everything possible from speed, power, chin, stamina, variety, quality of opponents, footwork, heart and other intangibles; who was the superior PRO fighter

walshb

When voting; please leave a little post so we know that persons aren't voting twice.
It's 2-0 for Barry, a vote from me and someone else?

Hero Of College

3-0

Barry was bigger, stronger, had a better punch....the Cruz fight was an aberration and he was never the same after it.

I really think he would have made a lot of noise at 126-130 of the last 10 years.

nacho libre

4-0

pickarooney

One more for McGuigan, possibly stained with nostalgia, but he appealed to me more as a fighter.

sston

Wayne for me, met the better competition and had a much longer career at top level.

menoscemo

I am going for Wayne. My decision is probably based on nothing more than Rose tinted glasses!!
Seriously though he held a world title for as long as Barry and got an Olympic medal. Incredible heart, chin and stamina at his best.
Also a great role-model for how Northern protestants can be great Irish-men as opposed to Barry who as an Irishman, sold out to the British.

eagle eye

I have been reading this forum for a long time but only started posting a couple of months ago.
I really respect the views of most people on this forum, especially Big Ears and Sligobhoy.
There are others who are clued in also. I think Hero of College has a good knowledge of the fight game but his judgment seems clouded by outside influences such as whether he likes/dislikes the boxer rather than basing his decisions on cold hard boxing facts.

A great example of this is some of his recent posts concerning the Floyd Mayweather vs Ricky Hatton fight.
I have pointed out that I detest Floyd Mayweather as a person but I readily admit that he is probably the best boxer I have ever seen.

If you want to have a good facts based argument on who was better thats fine but putting up a pole is just stupid. I think this is an attempt by Walshb to back up his claims about Barry McGuigan after getting slated by me in another thread where I said that imo he knows little or nothing about boxing based on his comments in that thread.
So here we are now with a thread where he looks for back up from others to massage his bruised ego.

On a side note, there have been eight votes up to now and six posters I think, including one who has never posted in the forum before afaik and myself who will not vote on such a silly poll.

cowzerp

Barry for me, power is what seperates these 2 great irish boxers, Barry had genuine KO power, as i have said before, if Mccullogh had barry's power he would of easily beat Hamed, and would of been a tru world beater.. Both legends for me.

03mcgs0

walshb wrote: »

When voting; please leave a little post so we know that persons aren't voting twice.
It's 2-0 for Barry, a vote from me and someone else?

That was me who voted earlier on, often I just dont have time to leave a comment, especially in work!


Both very good, but I favour Barry, Wayne fought them all but came off second one does have to remember, mind you until his most recent loss everyone who beat him was world class Morales, Hamed and in his prime Harrison

ROCKMAN

Voted Wayne , Very close thing but time at the top ,who they fought and their Amateur record just shade it to Wayne.

God if he only had Barry's punch.....

yomchi

I gave it to Wayne, I suppose really because he's my generation and I followed his career after 1992 onwards. We do be in touch via email too so i'm very biased, but it's true if only he had Barry's punch!

theone

I love wayne but barry was a much better fighter not the best of people but a good fighter.

Big Ears

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Voted Wayne , Very close thing but time at the top ,who they fought and their Amateur record just shade it to Wayne.

God if he only had Barry's punch.....

Well Walshb actually states pro record, but it would be interesting if we were including amateur achievements .

I went with McGuigan, McCullough was a great fighter and fought the better competition but his lack of power and face first defence really don't help his cause here . McCullough because he had to rely on his stamina and workrate too much could at times be one dimensional .

McGuigan was technically a better fighter in the pros and was a very good body puncher and very good at breaking people down methodically .


While McCullough faced better opposition bar Bredahl and Yakushiji he lost to them and was just found wanting a little when he moved above Bantamweight and faced the top guys . Considering he made 120 for the Martinez fight that didn't go ahead one has to wonder with different dietary methods could McCullough have stayed at Bantamweight for longer .

Fights with the likes of Johnny Tapia, Paule Ayala and Tim Austin would have been tough but I'd give him a much better chance of winning those than ever beating Morales .


When it comes down to it I just feel McGuigan was the more varied boxer and capable of fighting in more than one way which is what gives him the edge here . Even when McCullough tried to box he copped a few too many .

eagle eye

Big Ears wrote: »

Well Walshb actually states pro record, but it would be interesting if we were including amateur achievements .

I went with McGuigan, McCullough was a great fighter and fought the better competition but his lack of power and face first defence really don't help his cause here . McCullough because he had to rely on his stamina and workrate too much could at times be one dimensional .

McGuigan was technically a better fighter in the pros and was a very good body puncher and very good at breaking people down methodically .


While McCullough faced better opposition bar Bredahl and Yakushiji he lost to them and was just found wanting a little when he moved above Bantamweight and faced the top guys . Considering he made 120 for the Martinez fight that didn't go ahead one has to wonder with different dietary methods could McCullough have stayed at Bantamweight for longer .

Fights with the likes of Johnny Tapia, Paule Ayala and Tim Austin would have been tough but I'd give him a much better chance of winning those than ever beating Morales .


When it comes down to it I just feel McGuigan was the more varied boxer and capable of fighting in more than one way which is what gives him the edge here . Even when McCullough tried to box he copped a few too many .

Well I am going to disagree with you on this one, and I am still not voting. My belief on voting here is that popularity will win the day not good boxing knowledge.
I am not saying that popularity will rule in your decision, in fact I think quite the opposite. I believe that you will go for who you believe was best even if you hated one and loved the other, you will still pick the better guy in you opinion.
I don't think its fair to compare these fighters and theres a number of reasons.
Barry McGuigan did not fight the best fighters is the main reason. Azumah Nelson was the no.1 featherweight during McGuigans brief time at the top. There were others too, Wilfredo Gomez being one of them.
Basically with the exception of Eusebio Pedroza who was over the hill, he did not fight anyone big. He even avoided Pat Cowdell, a fight that would have made for a big payday.
We all know about his loss to Steve Cruz and then the loss to Jim McDonnell. Both Cowdell and McDonnell lost to Nelson btw.

Then you have Wayne McCullough who won his bantamweight title and attempted to move up, meeting better class opponents, including the legendary Morales as well as Hamed, Harrisson and Larios.
He was at the top end of boxing for over a decade and was involved in some of the greatest fights I have seen.

I just think when you compare their careers that there is no comparison. One lasted a couple of fights and the other last over a decade at the top. One fought nobody and the other fought all the best fighters.
If you remember the Cruz fight, McGuigan wanted to quit and his corner would not let him, he was dehydrated I believe, but could you ever imagine Wayne McCullough looking to quit in his prime, dehydrated or not?

walshb

eagle eye wrote: »

If you want to have a good facts based argument on who was better thats fine but putting up a pole is just stupid. I think this is an attempt by Walshb to back up his claims about Barry McGuigan after getting slated by me in another thread where I said that imo he knows little or nothing about boxing based on his comments in that thread.
So here we are now with a thread where he looks for back up from others to massage his bruised ego.

On a side note, there have been eight votes up to now and six posters I think, including one who has never posted in the forum before afaik and myself who will not vote on such a silly poll.

If you think a poll is stupid, simply ignore. Don't be so sensitive, it's only a boxing forum now, hardly life and death. And why would anyone here want to slate anyone.
Can you not simply debate a thread; why the need to slate?

You need to take a deep breath and relax there buddy....
'I'm not voting on this silly poll,' blah blah blah

Grow up for gods sake, you sound like a bloody 6 year old



And as a side note here, the Cruz fiasco IMO was the guttsiest and most courageous sporting effort I have ever ever witnessed. The bout I believe Barry actually won and lost due to a bit of a home town decision. I know that compu box had Barry the winner and I believe he won more rds than Cruz. Again, to mention it as a negative IMO is inaccurate; if anything, I think it enhances Barry's legacy

Hmmm; Cowdell, an old fighter whom Barry would have KO'd, Gomez???; a blown up bantam/super bantam whom Sanchez exposed, as Barry would have, great, but not strong enough at 126lbs; McDonnell,? good fight that Barry was winning and cuts stopped it. This is hilarious stuff, and finally Nelson, whom I believe would have beat Barry, but it would have been a great and tough fight and as far as I recall, there was ducking on both sides

Is anyone here debating or saying that Cowdell was superior to Pedroza?

Barry decisively beat a great great champion in Pedroza, who if were around today at 32; would IMO, be one of the best feathers on the planet.

Okay, he was past his peak, but still very formidable and a league ahead of Cowdell and Gomez

walshb

As for Barry wanting to quit in Vegas; I have the bout and all Barry's bouts on DVD and I honestly cannot recall Barry wanting to quit. I do recall his desperate pleas in
rd 8 in the corner when he tells them to say a prayer for him so he
doesn't die in the fight, yes, die. The man was in that much distress. Quit?; please; if
you have any evidence of this, do present it; but there is a huge difference between wanting to quit and asking your corner to say a prayer for you.

I could be wrong here, but I do NOT recall the plea to quit

menoscemo

Sorry

eagle eye

walshb wrote: »

If you think a poll is stupid, simply ignore. Don't be so sensitive, it's only a boxing forum now, hardly life and death. And why would anyone here want to slate anyone.
Can you not simply debate a thread; why the need to slate?
Grow up for gods sake, you sound like a bloody 6 year old

I personally don't like the idea of polling people to vote for one Irish great against another for no good reason. There are people who will vote for varying reasons for one guy over the other which has nothing to do with boxing. If you want to discuss their merits thats fine but putting up a poll between two fighters who will never fight and should both be respected for what they have done in their careers is not on.
What I meant by slate, is to rip apart your comments in the other thread which were pretty poor and lacking in substance imo.
Thanks for the insult by the way, thats the last line quoted above if you missed it.

walshb wrote: »

And as a side note here, the Cruz fiasco IMO was the guttsiest and most courageous sporting effort I have ever ever witnessed. The bout I believe Barry actually won and lost due to a bit of a home town decision. I know that compu box had Barry the winner and I believe he won more rds than Cruz. Again, to mention it as a negative IMO is inaccurate; if anything, I think it enhances Barry's legacy

Hmmm; Cowdell, an old fighter whom Barry would have KO'd, Gomez???; a blown up bantam/super bantam whom Sanchez exposed, as Barry would have, great, but not strong enough at 126lbs; McDonnell,? good fight that Barry was winning and cuts stopped it. This is hilarious stuff, and finally Nelson, whom I believe would have beat Barry, but it would have been a great and tough fight and as far as I recall, there was ducking on both sides

Is anyone here debating or saying that Cowdell was superior to Pedroza?

Barry decisively beat a great great champion in Pedroza, who if were around today at 32; would IMO, be one of the best feathers on the planet.

Okay, he was past his peak, but still very formidable and a league ahead of Cowdell and Gomez

Just to clear things up, Pedroza was a good fighter and a good champion, nothing great about him. I don't know where you are getting the great from.
Do you not find it strange that McGuigan and Cowdell never met?
It would have yielded a nice payday for both fighters. Cowdell got in the ring with Nelson, and got ko'd in the first round. It was actually frightening to watch Nelson that night, it was quick but awesome work and Cowdell was a decent fighter.
I never said that Cowdell was superior to Pedroza over his career, but he was probably ahead of the Pedroza that Barry fought. I also did not say that Cowdell would have beaten Barry, but again like so many other decent fighters he was avoided.

Wilfredo Gomez was a better fighter than Barry McGuigan imo. You are just dismissing him, how can you do that? He was a three weight world champion. He also had power and won most of his fights inside the distance. Interestingly both he and Barry fought Juan La Porte and beat him over the distance. Gomez lost by an 11th round stoppage to Azumah Nelson. He was a great fighter.

Imo Barry's greatest win was over La Porte who was still a good fighter when he met McGuigan.
As regards the actual fight with Cruz, I don't have a copy but I will try and get my hands on one shortly.
Anyways when its all said and done I like Barry McGuigan and respect what he did in his career.

walshb

Gomez was a terrific fighter, but he was NOT a feather and a fight with him and
Barry was never a real possibility; either way, he loses by KO, as he did
V Sanchez; he was just not strong enough at 126 to beat Barry.

Cowdell was as you said, destroyed in 1 by Nelson, and at 31/32 in
1984-1985; he would have been soundly whupped by Barry; not strong
enough, hard enough or tough enough to beat a relentless McGuigan

Barry beat a 32 year old Ped and that IMO is a much tougher
ask than a 31/32 year old Cowdell

As for you slating my comments by ripping them apart; I said Barry
was overall the better fighter than Wayne; you said Wayne was, and that meant
that my comments were ripped apart, hmm; you really got me there:rolleyes:

Cowdell was not avoided, and Gomez was not avoided.

The Nelson evasion was IMO on both camps and money
and contracts played the part here

Funny you never bothered to back up your QUIT claim from Vegas; though
like I said, it's more than likely 99.9 percent inaccurate; but I'm open for persuasion.

eagle eye

walshb wrote: »

Gomez was a terrific fighter, but he was NOT a feather and a fight with him and
Barry was never a real possibility; either way, he loses by KO, as he did
V Sanchez; he was just not strong enough at 126 to beat Barry.

Cowdell was as you said, destroyed in 1 by Nelson, and at 31/32 in
1984-1985; he would have been soundly whupped by Barry; not strong
enough, hard enough or tough enough to beat a relentless McGuigan

Barry beat a 32 year old Ped and that IMO is a much tougher
ask than a 31/32 year old Cowdell

As for you slating my comments by ripping them apart; I said Barry
was overall the better fighter than Wayne; you said Wayne was, and that meant
that my comments were ripped apart, hmm; you really got me there:rolleyes:

Cowdell was not avoided, and Gomez was not avoided.

The Nelson evasion was IMO on both camps and money
and contracts played the part here

Funny you never bothered to back up your QUIT claim from Vegas; though
like I said, it's more than likely 99.9 percent inaccurate; but I'm open for persuasion.

Gomez won world titles at super-bantam, featherweight and super-featherweight and you claim he was not strong enough. I would love to know how you can come to such a conclusion so easily.

Your thoughts on a McGuigan vs Cowdell fight are just conjecture that can never be proven or unproven and likewise with Gomez. Again I say, I did not predict an outcome if they had met.

Read through all my posts and what I keep saying is that Barry McGuigan did not fight the big names with the exception of La Porte and an over the hill Pedroza. I did not say that he avoided particular fighters, with the exception of Nelson, what I am saying is that his camp avoided pretty much every top fighter.

At the end of my last post which you have quoted you will see that I stated that I do not have a copy of the McGuigan/Cruz fight at the moment but I am going to try and get my hands on one. I don't wish to state that for fact unless I get a copy of the fight.

Azumah Nelson kept calling out McGuigan and there was never a response from McGuigan or his camp, so that was one sided avoidance. And I'm 100% certain of that.

walshb

eagle eye wrote: »

Gomez won world titles at super-bantam, featherweight and super-featherweight and you claim he was not strong enough. I would love to know how you can come to such a conclusion so easily.

Your thoughts on a McGuigan vs Cowdell fight are just conjecture that can never be proven or unproven and likewise with Gomez. Again I say, I did not predict an outcome if they had met.

Read through all my posts and what I keep saying is that Barry McGuigan did not fight the big names with the exception of La Porte and an over the hill Pedroza. I did not say that he avoided particular fighters, with the exception of Nelson, what I am saying is that his camp avoided pretty much every top fighter.

At the end of my last post which you have quoted you will see that I stated that I do not have a copy of the McGuigan/Cruz fight at the moment but I am going to try and get my hands on one. I don't wish to state that for fact unless I get a copy of the fight.

Azumah Nelson kept calling out McGuigan and there was never a response from McGuigan or his camp, so that was one sided avoidance. And I'm 100% certain of that.

Thanks for the obvious INFO concerning Gomez; who like I said and will say again, because it seems to be bouncing right off you; Gomez-McGuigan was never a possibility, it wasn't on the cards, so to site it as a possible duck by Barry is flat out wrong

Cowdell, like Gomez, was definitely not ducked, regardless, he didn't have a hope of
beating Barry.

As for the Vegas bout which I have watched several times; I did not hear Barry
wanting to quit.

Another thing concerning that fight. Did you know or even contemplate
what Barry went thru in that bout.

Barry, born in wet, cold Ireland, goes to the desert to fight a native Texan who
lived every minute of the desert heat and trained every day in desert heat.

It was analagous to Barry having one arm tied behind his back, yet Barry went
15 rds and threw punches non-stop and IMO, he won the bout. During that
bout, temperatures reached about 110-120 fahrenheit.

Now, Wayne, who is also a credit to this country never ever faced adversity like that.

I would say a rare few in history faced what Barry faced.

Either way, it's all a matter of tastes and my taste simply
differs from yours

Go watch Gomez-Sanchez and you will see why Gomez couldn't beat a top feather.
Yes, he beat Laporte, who everyone at feather beat and who was so tough, but lacked
the punch of Barry or Sal Sanchez. Barry was a very very natural strong feather, a step too
far for Gomez, and Barry's chin was solid. No matter what way you put it; Gomez
wasn't a dominant Feather and would have come up short V the TOP natural feathers

Glad to see you're keeping it civil for a change

walshb

The biggest obstacle to a Nelson fight was the Cruz upset.

Calling out was done, but all huff and puff, as cash and contracts etc
were always in the way

walshb

menoscemo wrote: »

I am probably completely blinkered here, but the day Mcgiugan fought for a british title as monagnan man, my mum told me he was a complete sellout and I agree. Wanker IMO.

Well there's probably no point in you voting then if you are that biased

eagle eye

walshb wrote: »

Go watch Gomez-Sanchez and you will see why Gomez couldn't beat a top feather.
Yes, he beat Laporte, who everyone at feather beat and who was so tough, but lacked
the punch of Barry or Sal Sanchez. Barry was a very very natural strong feather, a step too
far for Gomez, and Barry's chin was solid. No matter what way you put it; Gomez
wasn't a dominant Feather and would have come up short V the TOP natural feathers

I refer you to the Azumah Nelson vs Wilfredo Gomez fight. Come back to me when you have watched that. Nelson won it by ko in the 11th, and like all great champions he pulled it out of the fire when he had to, because the only way he could have won that fight was by ko.

I seen the fight with Cruz many times, but its been years. There are a couple of things that went wrong, the water bottle going missing being the big one.
There is absolutely no question about Cruz winning that fight. It was a clearcut decision.
Also if Barry was as good as he was touted, this fight should have been a short affair with him finishing Cruz inside of five rounds at the very most, long before dehydration became an issue.

walshb

A clear cut decision my arse. Did you even check the official scores for the bout?

Actually, judging by some of your comments, I am doubting you ever saw the bout.

Compu box had Barry the winner and by rds I had him winning 8-9; but he lost two big rds, as well as the home town decision


referee: Richard Steele | judge: Angel C. Tovar 142-143 | judge: Medardo Villalobos 139-143 | judge: Guy Jutras 141-142 ~
~ WBA featherweight title ~
1986 Fight of the Year - Ring Magazine

Nothing clear cut there mate. One single point on two cards over 15 rds and them
judges were US judges; or US appointed, I'm not too sure. Very fair that eh?

You clearly need to watch the bout again, and try this time to watch
it without the bias.

Finally, do you believe that had that bout taken place under
normal conditions that are fair to both men, that Cruz would have won?
I say Barry takes him out early to mid rds certainly.

I saw the Gomez-Nelson bout and nothing tells me that this version
of Gomez beats Barry. He lost by KO, couldn't make the full route because
he hadn't the extra strength needed at 126. Regardless, for the 100th time, Barry
and Gomez were never going to meet; so why use it as a negative for Barry:rolleyes:


Yes, and the water bottle going missing was Barry's main problem:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Big Ears

I don't really want to get involved in this too much but I'll make a few points .
Walshb if you had Barry winning 8/9 rounds that mean he lost 7/6 rounds , so with the knockdowns that gives Cruz the fight .

McGuigan would have most likely beaten Cruz in a fight held under normal conditions, but what happened happened .


Walshb you described Gomez as a Bantamweight/Super-Bantamweight who was then blown up . Gomez never fought at Bantamweight after he was about 19 and he had a dominating reign at Super-Bantamweight destroying one quality opponent after another .

You don't get exposed by the best Featherweight ever(Sanchez) you just get beat by him and the loss to Nelson who was a great fighter too is no shame .
He wasn't quite the same at Featherweight and Super-Featherweight but his wins of La porte and Lockridge show he was still a very good fighter as do the Sanchez and Nelson losses .
With that said Gomez was up at Super-Featherweight during McGuigan's reign and a fight was never really even looked at between them .
Who'd of won ?, I'm not really sure .

By the time McGuigan was champion Cowdell was well past his best, a fight between them may have garnered a lot of attention in the UK but it would have been an easy defence for McGuigan at that stage.


Nelson would of beaten McGuigan imo , but although it is often said McGuigan ducked Azumah it is hard to really tell whether he did or not considering McGuigan's reign was so short . If he had been able to hold onto his title for longer than a year or regain it at some point we probably would of found out .

Pedroza was past his best but still a quality fighter, still very quick , slick and was a hard target to pin down . The Pedroza win is still better than the La Porte win .

Anyway, Sanchez beats the two of them, Gomez , Cruz, Pedroza anyone you name at Feather . The sad thing is he probably hadn't even reached his prime

homerjk

menoscemo wrote: »

I am probably completely blinkered here, but the day Mcgiugan fought for a british title as monagnan man, my mum told me he was a complete sellout and I agree. Wanker IMO.

Your Mum told you? You're not Steve Bunces son are you?

I'm from Monaghan. I've never met anyone from Monaghan bad mouth him or talk this nonsense. I've met Barry countless times in my life. My grandfather and his father were great friends. The man is a gent and a legend. A complete sell out? You haven't a clue, do you? Your posts (your last was an even bigger joke) are so ignorant that they don't even warrant a proper reply to tell you how wrong you are.

eagle eye

homerjk wrote: »

Your Mum told you? You're not Steve Bunces son are you?

I'm from Monaghan. I've never met anyone from Monaghan bad mouth him or talk this nonsense. I've met Barry countless times in my life. My grandfather and his father were great friends. The man is a gent and a legend. A complete sell out? You haven't a clue, do you? Your posts (your last was an even bigger joke) are so ignorant that they don't even warrant a proper reply to tell you how wrong you are.

Fully agreed.

eagle eye

Who is being insulting now, doubting I ever saw the fight. I'm not some young kid, I have been watching boxing since the mid seventies. The first fight I remember watching was Ali/Frazier in '74.

DECISION: There was no doubt who won the Cruz/McGuigan fight. I didn't remember the actual official scores but if anything they would have been biased towards the Champion and not the Challenger based on the scores you have given and I am not doubting that you give the correct scores.

BIAS: I never suffer from bias towards or against a fighter. I might want to see someone win but it will never cloud my judgment of a fight. I always shouted for Barry by the way. If anything I would be biased towards him, as my father was great friends with the late Pat McGuigan. They went to school together and I was in the McGuigan family home on many occasions, the most memorable being the night he came home with the title after beating Pedroza. I remember that one so well as I got the day off school to go up to Clones for the celebrations.

As regards if the fight had taken place under different conditions. Well ifs and ands don't make tin cans. Thats my whole point as regards a poll as well.
Basically the main reason I rate Wayne ahead of Barry is to do with class of opposition faced and length at the top of the fight game.
You see a lot of fighters who are never the same after their first loss. Unfortunately Barry falls into that category. Wayne went on after his first loss to fight in some great fights and stay at the top of the fight game for a decade.
Wayne fought all the best fighters and Barry did not.
Again you keep saying that Gomez would not beat Barry, but who is arguing with you on that?
It never happened and will never happen so we will never know, and yet again as I said earlier I just mentioned him and Cowdell as two opponents that he could have fought who were top five fighters at the same time as he was.

Just to clarify Gomez almost beat Nelson, Azumah ko'd him in the 11th when losing badly on points.

One more thing, Barry actually says himself that his toughest match was the La Porte fight.

alanceltic

My vote goes to McCullough and based on 2 points rather than analysing the technical boxing abilities of either boxer.

McCullough won his world title the hard way, he went to the Japs back yard and had to beat his opponent, the crowd and the judges....

McGuigan sold his soul to the brits at the sniff of the lure of the english pound like a cheap whore (OK a bit OTT but u get my sentiments)

McCullough demonstrated that you didnt have to choose one side of the fence over the other, from a staunch loyalist background but still had the bravery to proudly carry the tricolour in the face of hugh adversity. People seen his bravery (from both sides) and accepted he was in it for the sport not the politics, his bravery goes beyond the sport IMO

eagle eye

Above is yet more proof of why these polls are a waste of time.

Big Ears

eagle eye wrote: »

Above is yet more proof of why these polls are a waste of time.

too true tbh , 'rather than analysing the technical boxing abilities of either boxer.' I mean come on . The technical ability of McGuigan is exactly why I gave it to him but there are several people here voting for McCullough simply because Barry 'sold his soul to the Brits' which has nothing to do with his ability as a fighter .

Similarly there are those that probably voted McGuigan simply based on the hype and legendary status he has achieved compared to McCullough .

alanceltic

Yeah i agree....ask a stupid question get a stupid answer.... off the politics of the situation i think i would still pick mccullough based on his achievements, the honest truth of the matter is they both gave us some of the few days we had world champs (regardless of what the brits claimed) and a taste for what its like to support someone at the top of their game so i say heres hoping for our current crop of pros, dunne,lee,duddy,mccloskey etc etc and the promise of another champ waiting in the wings

Big Ears

alanceltic wrote: »

Yeah i agree....ask a stupid question get a stupid answer.... off the politics of the situation i think i would still pick mccullough based on his achievements, the honest truth of the matter is they both gave us some of the few days we had world champs (regardless of what the brits claimed) and a taste for what its like to support someone at the top of their game so i say heres hoping for our current crop of pros, dunne,lee,duddy,mccloskey etc etc and the promise of another champ waiting in the wings

Being honest as disappointing as it would be if one of our current bunch didn't gain a World title I can't remember when the country last had such strength in depth as right now .

Brian Magee, Duddy , Lee , Macklin , Moore, Haughian , McCloskey , Murray, Fagan, Dunne .

Solid guys like McBride, Rogan, Rock, 5 Olympians and a boat load of prospects , not to mention 'The Rebel'

I wouldn't trade 1 World Champion for what we have and what we are developing, which is a proper boxing scene, with proper structure(tv deals and sponsorship, small hall+ big promotions) and plenty of talent for the future .

As much as people hate them this is largely down to Brian Peters and Bernard Dunne, and lets not forget the High Performance innitiative in the IABA which has helped develop our amateur fighters .

homerjk

alanceltic wrote: »

McGuigan sold his soul to the brits at the sniff of the lure of the english pound like a cheap whore (OK a bit OTT but u get my sentiments)

I wasn't going to reply to any other responses to this thread, infact I'm not going to say anything in reply to this, but this one is just hilarious.

So Alan, I it take the Celtic from your username are your local team and that you havent sold your soul to the Scots?

cowzerp

Lets put it this way, If they where to fight who'd win?
i'd personally pick Barry to win, thats my criteria anyway..

on a political level, i think it helped barry's career to hold a brit passport at that time, although i would not do this i was not in the situation,

Wayne is a great ambassador for been Irish and coming from the protestant side up north, showing we can all get on and move forward..

eagle eye

cowzerp wrote: »

Lets put it this way, If they where to fight who'd win?
i'd personally pick Barry to win, thats my criteria anyway..

on a political level, i think it helped barry's career to hold a brit passport at that time, although i would not do this i was not in the situation,

Wayne is a great ambassador for been Irish and coming from the protestant side up north, showing we can all get on and move forward..

I'd say the Barry McGuigan before the cruz fight and Wayne McCullough would be a great fight but the Barry post Cruz would not have a chance.

cowzerp

They have to be compared at there best, otherwise its all pointless-thats why i still rate Tyson higher than Lewis, and Bhop higher than (im not even going there!)

megadodge

There are a number of inaccuracies in the anti-Barry argument and a few disgustingly stupid brain-dead comments also, but I think reasonable people know which ones the latter are.

Both these fighters are two of my all-time favourites, obviously because they were Irish, but also because they gave me great entertainment and most importantly they are both through and through gentlemen.

1. Pat Cowdell campaigned mainly at super-feather for a few years (was reigning European champ) before he dropped back down to fight Azumah Nelson. He was destroyed in one. This happened a few months into Barry's reign. Absolutely nobody was calling out for any match to be made between them especially after that destruction. This is the first time I have ever heard this argument.

2. Gomez had won and lost the super-feather crown before Barry even became champ at feather. He was already a shot fighter at that stage and I don't recall anybody mooting that match either.
In the Nelson fight, (although the judges scandalously didn't see it) Azumah controlled that the whole way (I have it on tape) and always looked like he was going to finish it early.

3. When Azumah Nelson was Commonwealth champion Barry was no. 1 contender, Nelson refused a fight with him. Once they were world champs he called him out definitely, but that previous fact was often mentioned at the time.

4. I have a tape of the Cruz fight and nowhere on it does Barry "want to quit". As Walshb correctly stated, Barry at one stage asked his corner to "say a prayer" for him. Big difference. That shows the amount of trouble he was having with the heat (and opponent) at the time (he knew he was in trouble) yet he kept going, the idea of quitting just never came into his head.

5. People are stating that Wayne was "at the top" for a long time. He wasn't. He was near the top, but when you look at it, he lost all his big fights after his bantam reign and that reign in itself was not that impressive. The win in Japan was fantastic, but Bredahl was stopped for absolutely no reason whatsoever and Bueno gave him a terrific fight and although I thought Wayne won it (I was at the fight) it seems the TV viewers and commentators were not of the same opinion (it was a split decision). His loss to Zaragoza was very clear in my eyes and how anyone could give it to Wayne is beyond me. The loss to Morales is probably his best performance, but he still lost. He lost clearly to Hamed also.

Wayne McCullough is without doubt the toughest fighter I ever saw. I have never, ever, EVER seen anyone with a bigger heart - that includes Gatti and Matthew Saad Muhammad. He took so much punishment because of his poor defence, yet he just kept coming and coming and coming. But the truth was he could be outboxed easily enough and that's where the difference between him and Barry (along with power, but with Wayne's chin that wouldn't have made a whole lot of difference) was. Barry was a better all-round boxer with more variety, better accuracy, better defence and more physical strength and I personally think he was the better of the two.

I think Nelson would have beaten Barry on points in a terrific fight.

Please, no matter what way you think, please don't insult either of these gentlemen. Neither deserve it.

cowzerp

megadodge wrote: »

Please, no matter what way you think, please don't insult either of these gentlemen. Neither deserve it.

Overall great post, and this part is the best bit.

Big Ears

cowzerp wrote: »

Lets put it this way, If they where to fight who'd win?
i'd personally pick Barry to win, thats my criteria anyway..

on a political level, i think it helped barry's career to hold a brit passport at that time, although i would not do this i was not in the situation,

Wayne is a great ambassador for been Irish and coming from the protestant side up north, showing we can all get on and move forward..

If Collins was the fight McGuigan prime for prime who'd win ?, obviously I've exaggerated here and many may rank Collins better than McGuigan anyway but Wayne McCullough was in his prime at Bantamweight, McGuigan at Featherweight . Just because Wayne fought at Featherweight at points during his career doesn't mean you can compare them head to head because McCullough wasn't near his best at the weight .

Now Barry is still the better fighter for me, but not because he'd beat McCullough if they fought .

and I agree with the last sentiments of megadodge and Cowzerp .

cowzerp

Big Ears wrote: »

If Collins was the fight McGuigan prime for prime who'd win ?, obviously I've exaggerated here and many may rank Collins better than McGuigan anyway but Wayne McCullough was in his prime at Bantamweight, McGuigan at Featherweight . Just because Wayne fought at Featherweight at points during his career doesn't mean you can compare them head to head because McCullough wasn't near his best at the weight .

Now Barry is still the better fighter for me, but not because he'd beat McCullough if they fought ..

The fact that Wayne was bigger than Barry when they where both at the best, means you could conceive of them fighting-Barry had the strenght to step up and beat wayne, if the opposite was true,where wayne had to step up I would say it was unfair on Wayne! because barry would not be at any strenght disadvantage in the fight been naturally strong and heavier!..dont know if i worded that right but you get me!

megadodge

Not sure I understand what you're trying to say Paul.

Wayne was naturally smaller (bantam) than Barry (feather), even though he moved up to feather.

Any fictional fight between them would be in the magical p4p machine where I still think Barry would be better and definitely physically stronger.

eagle eye

Nice post there megadodge, impressive actually.

Just to clear up a few things, I am the one who mentioned Cowdell and Gomez. I did not say that he dodged either fighter, I was pointing out that those were among a bunch of fighters who were way above the standard of opponent that Barry McGuigan actually fought. In other words he did not fight the best at any stage in his career. He fought a shot Pedroza, a fighter who was well past his prime. La Porte to me was the only good fighter who was still at the top of his game when Barry fought him.

I don't agree at all with you that Gomez was past his prime, and I seen the fight with Nelson and I would have had him well ahead on points. I would agree that he did not trouble Nelson as in hurt him, but he certainly outscored him.

The McGuigan camp did not want any part of Nelson and thats well known. Barry McGuigan did not make those decisions and I am sure that Barry himself would have wanted to fight Nelson but his management wanted to keep him is soft fights.

I had to check the dates as regards the Commonwealth title and just after winning that title, Nelson got to fight Hector Cortez, and clearly that would have been more attractive for Nelson at the time. That fight took place less than 4 months after he won the Commonwealth title.

I take my hat off as regards the quit comment I made, I remember the corner telling him that he had to keep going or something like that, but its clear that I am incorrect from what you say. Its been a long, long time since I watched that fight. I actually said to Walshb that I would have to check up on it before I would disagree with him, but there is no need for that now. And the say a prayer comment jogs my memory a little also.

menoscemo

I just removed my last comment there. To be honest there was absolutely no need for it. You can still see it under quote in another place....

I came home drunk on sunday night and probably a little emotive after having discussed this subject in the Pub and must have thought it would be funny to put it up. I the cold light of day I see it is childish and ignortant. I retract calling Barry anything I shouldn't have and apologise to anyone who took offence.

Niall

cowzerp

megadodge wrote: »

Not sure I understand what you're trying to say Paul.

Wayne was naturally smaller (bantam) than Barry (feather), even though he moved up to feather.

Any fictional fight between them would be in the magical p4p machine where I still think Barry would be better and definitely physically stronger.

I was in a hurry reading and mixed up there weights! i knew there weights an all but was not thinking about it! my mistake, so going by that means, it would not be a realistic match, with barry been a powerful feather and wayne as a weak bantamweight, could of been put together but would of been unfair on wayne,,if they where from the same era!

megadodge

Just to clear up a few things, I am the one who mentioned Cowdell and Gomez. I did not say that he dodged either fighter, I was pointing out that those were among a bunch of fighters who were way above the standard of opponent that Barry McGuigan actually fought. In other words he did not fight the best at any stage in his career. He fought a shot Pedroza, a fighter who was well past his prime. La Porte to me was the only good fighter who was still at the top of his game when Barry fought him.

I don't agree at all with you that Gomez was past his prime, and I seen the fight with Nelson and I would have had him well ahead on points. I would agree that he did not trouble Nelson as in hurt him, but he certainly outscored him.

Pat Cowdell was better than any version of Eusebio Pedroza ??? You gotta be joking ??
Pedroza was still the reigning world champ (making his 20th defence and unbeaten in 9 years) and while undoubtedly past his best, was light years ahead of Cowdell.

Gomez was miles past his prime. I made a slight mistake in saying earlier that he had won and lost the super-feather title before Barry won his. He had won that title before but lost it during Barry's reign - to Alfedo Layne !! Even his title winning effort against Rocky Lockridge was controversial with most believing the American had won. But Layne was (to be kind) very ordinary. He lost in his first defence to Brian Mitchell (no disgrace as the South African went on to become a legend in my eyes), but even a slightly past-it Gomez would have destroyed someone as middling as Layne.
Anyway the point is moot as he was a super-feather and didn't fight for another two years after the Layne loss and then retired after one more fight, so again I don't know why this is being brought up.

walshb

Eagle, if you read Megas post you will see exactly what I've been saying and the three critical points are Barry never asked to quit, Cowdell wasn't ducked and would have been soundly whupped and finally, Gomez was NOT on Barry's radar.

Nelson and Barry did NOT duck each other and even on American sites, this fact is agreed on. I'd bet on Nelson to win in a tough fight.

Finally, is anyone saying that Wayne beats Barry at any point in their careers?

Wayne never ever got above 122 lbs at best, it's that simple.

Barry was a big heavy hitting feather and moved to 130 lbs near the end.

Wayne IMO never makes 12 V Barry, because I think think there is a huge differnece in power and strength between Barry and say Scott Harrisson, Morales, Naz (hugely overrated), Rabanales etc. These men couldn't dent
Wayne due to his toughness, but Barry, had he ever fought Wayne, is simply too relentlessly strong and heavy hitting. Every man has his limit and that includes Wayne

Also, Laporte was a lot of fighters toughest fight, he was that tough

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

I don't really want to get involved in this too much but I'll make a few points .
Walshb if you had Barry winning 8/9 rounds that mean he lost 7/6 rounds , so with the knockdowns that gives Cruz the fight .

McGuigan would have most likely beaten Cruz in a fight held under normal conditions, but what happened happened .

I didn't say Cruz won 6-7 rds. I simply said Barry won the fight and on my card that was 8-9 rds. I may well have scored 1-2 rds even. Cruz won 2-3 rds big, plus a couple of others normal and IMO, there was a hometown decision to contend with. The bout was a razor thin decsion by the cards.

Overall I had Barry the winner based on punches thrown, landed and ring generalship, plus aggression and obvious work rate

eagle eye

Can people here please understand that I never said that Cowdell and Gomez were ducked.
I have stated this a number of times. I just happened to mention their names as two of the many fighters he could have fought.

My point is that Barry McGuigan never fought the best competition out there.

Wayne McCullough fought all the best.

To Walshb, you make me laugh, to say that Hamed's power did not compare to Barry's is just laughable. Your analysis of the McGuigan/Cruz fight is just stupendous. I'm sorry to be so straight forward but its just too much.