Constantly Hooking Up

LegacyUser

So my problem is that with a few drinks in me towards the end of the night I have an urge to hook up. This has caused me to do some bad things. I have hooked up with mates girlfriends, I have hooked up with friends of girls that I am considering going out with, I have hooked up with mates sisters, girls my mates are interested in, girls I dont even like, I have strung along girls (Yeah we'll defo go out come back to mine tonight) lots of **** like that. Sometimes I really like a girl but then the minute I **** her I don't want anything to do with her. If I find out a girl I have ****ed is going out with someone else I dont know why but I have an urge to screw her again to get one over pretty bad and I regret it the next day but when I am drunk literally the only thing I think about is SEX. I don't like meeting up with girls unless its going to result in sex. I have never gone out with anyone ever just screwed around. I am seen as a player and its hard to get rid of that reputation no girls see me as boyfriend material just as a fun one night stand and I suppose subconciously I see them as that as well but I want a girlfriend I JUST CANT STOP SCREWING AROUND.

And the notion of going out on a 1 on 1 date, sober, no chances of sex?? absolutely alien to me

what to do?

MagicMarker

Stop drinking.

Or.... Stop blaming your silly arse actions on the drink maybe? Maybe take some responsability for your own actions that include being a ****ty friend, treating women like dirt and basically being a fool?

Maybe grow up?

LolaLuv

You either need to get treated for a sex addiction or stop trolling.

information

You have a fear on intimacy/lack of confidence.

Going for girls, you know will never lead to anything, so you won't get rejected.
A need to validate yourself by taking girls from other people, stringing them a long.
Afraid to meet a girl in a one on one situation.

sexcrazed wrote: »

what to do?

Be a man, take a risk, open yourself up to a girl, only way to fall in love, get married, be happy

SarahSassy

MagicMarker wrote: »

Stop drinking.

Or.... Stop blaming your silly arse actions on the drink maybe? Maybe take some responsability for your own actions that include being a ****ty friend, treating women like dirt and basically being a fool?

Maybe grow up?

+1

hussey

what to do?

Maybe deflate your ego?

Karen_*

Do they even see you as a fun night stand though or are they disgusted with you?

I think you have a total lack of respect for yourself and for others and you obviously want this to change or you wouldn't be posting here so thats a really good thing. The most obvious place to start would be to cut out the drinking. You're probably really capable of being a nice guy so make a really conscious decision to change. Live without sex for a while and go on some sober dates and get to know the girl. Things won't just automatically change, you're going to have to put in some work on it.

MJOR

Get a grip...... In all fairness

sexcrazed

sexcrazed wrote: »

I JUST CANT STOP SCREWING AROUND.

And the notion of going out on a 1 on 1 date, sober, no chances of sex?? absolutely alien to me

what to do?

Nothing.
When you are getting all this sex,theres a willing person on the receiving end.
You don't want anything else right now so I say carry on-theres nothing wrong happening other than maybe you are getting a bit of a bad boy reputation.
Your friends won't have you at the top of their lists for introducing you to their sisters but thats about it.

When you do want something else-you can come back here with another thread actually requesting advice on how to go about that.

davyjose

OP, the problem with posting on an internet forum is that when you do something sh!tty, people will just get angry and give you abuse. But, just because the problem's your fault, doesn't mean it's not a PI.

My advice would definitely be to drink less. If you can't do this then it would seem to me that you don't, deep down, want to resolve these issues. This could be the reason you are still at it - the fact that you are having this brief amount of fun, makes you ignore the pain afterwards. You need to decide if it's worth it, and if not, you have to take steps to avoid getting yourself in this situation, be it seeking professional help, or just laying off the booze. Because it looks to me like this is something that can only get much, much worse in one (or more) of many ways.

LegacyUser

Its nearly impossible to stop drinking in this society. Everything is built around it. As for confidence issues its not I am completely confident in everything I do. I dont know theres a lot of girls that I know like me and I like them but I just know I'll end up screwing them and not following it up. I honestly dont mean to do it but it happens. As for me being a ****ty friend? If their girlfriend is all over me when I am twisted drunk then whose fault is it if we hook up shes clearly going to stray with some randomer anyways and I dont mean to do it I always regret it but honestly when I drink I just have to. There has always been one girl I always really liked but I burnt every bridge with her and she says I hurt her too much for anything to ever happen. I slept with her slut of a best friend when we were really close (not going out though) just one mistake in a long line of them.

As for the be a man comments if you met me when I haven't been drinking you would think I am a completely stand up guy. I usually avoid going out on nights out with girls I really like because I dont want to hook up with them like I do every other random girl and hurt them but its always inevitable that we will run into each other.

estar

from the way you are talking about this it is like it is another person - like you have no control over yourself and your actions. I am taking it that this behaviour does not make you popular or happy. It is in fact quite anti-social and I'm surprised your friends tolerate it. It is one thing to be a player. It is quite another to have as little respect for women, other peoples relationships and yourself as you have.

I would examine closely what lead you down this route, as you weren't born this way. Why do you behave like this? Where did you learn to just hop into bed with randomers.

I would also give up alcohol if it was leading me to lose control of myself. but I don't think it is alcohol. I think you use alcohol as an excuse so that you can run wild and live out whatever you want. And then the next day you say - sorry I was drunk.

It is only a matter of time before you get the hiding of a lifetime from chatting up or trying to take home the girlfriend of the wrong guy. I've seen it happen to another friend I know - he puts his friends in the position of defending him a lot as he is a sleeze. I have little respect for him. Just as I have little for you. Your behaviour is cheap and nasty. But I think you know that already.

This comes down to anger, if you ask me. And self dislike. Its not just a high sex drive. You arent looking for willing partners - you are looking for any partners and the more unavailable the better. And you manipulate to get your way. And then you let people down, your friends, the girls you lie to and yourself.

Where did this self destructive streak come from?

My advice is own your behaviour. If you dont feel like you wish to continue in this vein then own your behaviour, control it and say no to yourself. Give up alcohol. Focus on being an authentic human being in your interactions with others. And have a period of celebacy until you have understood your destructive impulses and why you seem to enjoy hurting others.

LegacyUser

davyjose wrote: »

OP, the problem with posting on an internet forum is that when you do something sh!tty, people will just get angry and give you abuse. But, just because the problem's your fault, doesn't mean it's not a PI.

My advice would definitely be to drink less. If you can't do this then it would seem to me that you don't, deep down, want to resolve these issues. This could be the reason you are still at it - the fact that you are having this brief amount of fun, makes you ignore the pain afterwards. You need to decide if it's worth it, and if not, you have to take steps to avoid getting yourself in this situation, be it seeking professional help, or just laying off the booze. Because it looks to me like this is something that can only get much, much worse in one (or more) of many ways.

I always try drink less its just so, so hard. My mates constantly shove drinks in your face and its just difficult. I don't think its worth it I want to settle down but I don't want to hurt the girl. And I would agree with you about the situation getting worse. Theres been some hairy situations over the years that I dont want to talk about

biko

http://www.sexaa.org/12ques.htm
http://www.sexaa.org/

LegacyUser

estar wrote: »

from the way you are talking about this it is like it is another person - like you have no control over yourself and your actions. I am taking it that this behaviour does not make you popular or happy. It is in fact quite anti-social and I'm surprised your friends tolerate it. It is one thing to be a player. It is quite another to have as little respect for women, other peoples relationships and yourself as you have.

I would examine closely what lead you down this route, as you weren't born this way. Why do you behave like this? Where did you learn to just hop into bed with randomers.

I would also give up alcohol if it was leading me to lose control of myself. but I don't think it is alcohol. I think you use alcohol as an excuse so that you can run wild and live out whatever you want. And then the next day you say - sorry I was drunk.

It is only a matter of time before you get the hiding of a lifetime from chatting up or trying to take home the girlfriend of the wrong guy. I've seen it happen to another friend I know - he puts his friends in the position of defending him a lot as he is a sleeze. I have little respect for him. Just as I have little for you. Your behaviour is cheap and nasty. But I think you know that already.

This comes down to anger, if you ask me. And self dislike. Its not just a high sex drive. You arent looking for willing partners - you are looking for any partners and the more unavailable the better. And you manipulate to get your way. And then you let people down, your friends, the girls you lie to and yourself.

Where did this self destructive streak come from?

My advice is own your behaviour. If you dont feel like you wish to continue in this vein then own your behaviour, control it and say no to yourself. Give up alcohol. Focus on being an authentic human being in your interactions with others. And have a period of celebacy until you have understood your destructive impulses and why you seem to enjoy hurting others.

Firstly I am not one to rely on my friends to defend me when I get in the **** I take sole responsibility and have had it happen before where I have had to defend myself for being with the wrong girl. Not that it makes it ok now but I just want to clear up that I dont put my friends in positions like your sleazy friends do. And its not that I solely go for girls with boyfriends I go for girls in general that I find attractive the problem is I dont care when I've been drinking if theyre single or not because I have one thing on my mind. I dont enjoy hurting anyone thats why I dont ever want to get close to a girl because I just know I'll hurt her

Pherekydes

sexcrazed wrote: »

Its nearly impossible to stop drinking in this society. Everything is built around it.

You obviously have a drink problem. Seek help.

6th

sexcrazed wrote: »

what to do?

6th knows what you should do ..... you should either except thats the kind of person you are and live a very unfullfilling life or sit yourself down and really think about what you want from life.

Dont get 6th wrong, he knows that sex is great but you are denying yourself a whole other side of things that comes from sex with someone who actually have feelings for.

all the stars

sexcrazed wrote: »

Its nearly impossible to stop drinking in this society. Everything is built around it.

Rubbish. Often go to pub and not drink.
Also, who says you have to get completely smashed while you are drinking? Cant just have a social few?
Try "its the beer company made me do it"... might work for you..
Dont be so irresponsible, selfish and learn to control what your doing.

sexcrazed wrote: »

As for me being a ****ty friend? If their girlfriend is all over me when I am twisted drunk then whose fault is it if we hook up shes clearly going to stray with some randomer anyways and I dont mean to do it I always regret it but honestly when I drink I just have to.

Yup... cop out of the decade.
Just coz the friends missus is a tramp and would go home with you, dont mean you have to be such a lousy friend. Shame on you for trying to say just coz she would you are obligated...

sexcrazed wrote: »

There has always been one girl I always really liked but I burnt every bridge with her and she says I hurt her too much for anything to ever happen. I slept with her slut of a best friend when we were really close (not going out though) just one mistake in a long line of them.

As for the be a man comments if you met me when I haven't been drinking you would think I am a completely stand up guy. I usually avoid going out on nights out with girls I really like because I dont want to hook up with them like I do every other random girl and hurt them but its always inevitable that we will run into each other.

take control of your life. simple as.
"what are you doing"?
"Hows it working for you"?

Not happy? Change it.

SarahSassy

sexcrazed wrote: »

I slept with her slut of a best friend

A word to the 'wise' - you are a slut if we go by the typical definition of the word. The fact that you use the word to refer to a girl who used you as much as you used her, makes it apparent to me that you have some serious issues with respect for women.

This seems to go deeper than just a drink problem, which you evidently have...

MJOR

Have to agree with Sarah....

jon1981

how are you still alive? seriously if you have crapped over so many mates and friends, how have you even got any left?

Dragan

OP, you have more issues than National Geographic.

You need to take a look at your past, find out what it is that is stimulating all these actions and then sort it out.

You are currently on a nice self destructive pattern, i would go so far as your actions are some kind of desperate plea for attention. The fact that you can't actually do any of this sober implies a lack of character and confidence....this wells up when the bottle hits and you justify your own image of yourself by getting laid.

Whatever you issue is i suggest you lay off the booze and talk to someone about it.

Wagon

It's not the beers fault. You like it, and you just think about getting your hole and not giving a crap about anyone else, including your mates which is ****ing low. I agree with others, stop drinking. You're going to end up getting your head kicked in by someone equally as drunk and stupid as you and there's going to be nobody there to defend you.

SarahSassy

Dragan wrote: »

OP, you have more issues than National Geographic.

Classic

Wurly

sexcrazed wrote: »

I always try drink less its just so, so hard. My mates constantly shove drinks in your face and its just difficult. I don't think its worth it I want to settle down but I don't want to hurt the girl. And I would agree with you about the situation getting worse. Theres been some hairy situations over the years that I dont want to talk about

Well try harder! Only you can decide if you want to change. You are the only person in control of you. And your train of thought influences how you will behave.

Yes it is a society that sometimes revolves around drink. But its not the only thing to do. Maybe not label everything as 'hard'. You've already therefore set yourself up to climb everest. You don't have to be completely off your tits to have a good time. You can still have a few beers but you don't have to drink yourself into a stupor. If you disagree with this statement, then I think its safe to say that you have a drink problem.

Ultimately, it depends on how much you want change. If you think you 'should' do something about this as opposed to 'wanting' to, then you will continue to go around in circles and it will always be too hard. Just dont' expect to have any friends left if you contine on the way you do.

Its your choice.

ntlbell

spending the majority of your teens and twenites drinking and fuc*ing around isn't in itslef that much of a bad thing...

In fact I fully encourage it!

the problem here seem's to be WHY you're doing it...

justsomebloke

OP just as a matter of interest what do you expect to come from this thread.

You have already stated that you believe the problem stems from when you drink however are unwilling to actually take any active steps to stop drinking.

As you have said you have made many mistakes but if you aren't man enough to fess up and take responibilty for your actions nothing is ever going to change. e.g. you blame the girlfriends of your mates for wanting to be with you, sorry that is bull****. IT IS BOTH OF YOU AT FAULT and if you can't see what you are doing to your friends then I really feel sorry for you

Rayven199

Maybe you should try the 40 days and 40 nights approach, abstain from sex for a while and try to be a decent guy!

No girl would even consider you as boyfriend material because of your reputation and rightfully so. Yes people make mistakes but most learn from them, you seem to be making the same one over and over!

Take responsibility for your actions and stop blaming everyone and everything else - the drink/friends girlfriends etc.
If you truly want to change then do it!

MJOR

And it might be worth it to get yourself checked for an STD

Rayven199

Good point MJOR!

LegacyUser

Sounds like you drink too much... and you're insecure and using sex for validation... geez sorry to sound like Dawson's Creek but without knowing you it sounds like the case anyway.

So anyway about the not drinking thing... yeah a lot of people say it's impossible to not drink here... it's not true... if you don't want to drink just don't drink! I know that's not helpful to say so I'll elaborate - first of all it sounds like drinking less is not an option but you could always try the one pint of water for each pint of beer idea... that should slow you down physically... alternatively you could just try to stop altogether, if your mates push you then say you're on antibiotics or something... do you drive? maybe if you could bring the car along and say you have to drive. Mind you the risk there is that you'll be tempted to drink then drive - Don't do it!!

Or of course you could try to get a hobby or join a club to keep you off the scene a bit more... you can still keep your friends but just not see them all the time, if you're learning to socialise with a different group then it might make it easier to change your pattern of behavior...

anyway... just some suggestions... hope they help!

melekalikimaka

you sound a bit like me. rol with it your young and apparently we all grow out of it

BumblebeeGirl

Think Condoms are an inconvenience- try Gonorrhea!

Dudess

Go easy on the OP, at least he's got something of a conscience about this, unlike melekalikimaka or Black Briar:

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing.
When you are getting all this sex,theres a willing person on the receiving end.

That's not an excuse if the person happens to be your mate's girlfriend. Or if it happens to be a girl you're leading on.

You don't want anything else right now so I say carry on

He does want something else - a relationship. He said so.

-theres nothing wrong happening

Yes there is. I agree to a point that sex is just sex, but there's no need to be THAT crass about it. Some people see sex as something more significant and they attach emotion to it and it's not fair to be blasé about them getting hurt just because "it's only sex".

Your friends won't have you at the top of their lists for introducing you to their sisters but thats about it.

Have to say I never understood that whole protecting the sister thing.

estar

sexcrazed wrote: »

Firstly I am not one to rely on my friends to defend me when I get in the **** I take sole responsibility and have had it happen before where I have had to defend myself for being with the wrong girl. Not that it makes it ok now but I just want to clear up that I dont put my friends in positions like your sleazy friends do. And its not that I solely go for girls with boyfriends I go for girls in general that I find attractive the problem is I dont care when I've been drinking if theyre single or not because I have one thing on my mind. I dont enjoy hurting anyone thats why I dont ever want to get close to a girl because I just know I'll hurt her

how do you feel after these random encounters
do you feel happy?

how would you like it if your sister (if you had one) met someone like you
and was told - yes lets go out together and then found out it was a trick.

how do you think that makes someone feel? even though they are incredibly
naive to believe you it probably makes them feel worthless. and yes it is their
choice. but do you say to them - lets have casual sex that will mean nothing to me, I don't really care if you are single or not and i have one thing on my mind? or do you say something else?

would you call your sister a slut and that it was her own fault?
you know there are two ways of hurting people.
there is the conscious way - and the careless way. it isnt enough to say
oh but i never set out to hurt people. are you an animal with no conscience?

or who exists purely in the moment? no. you are the architect of your own
existence, being a conscious adult and all.
if i killed you when driving my car do i get away with saying sorry i was drunk?
the jokes on you, as you are destroying your own reputation and happiness.

you might get what you want in that moment but you lose respect.
now either you can keep on justifying your actions by saying you were drunk or didnt mean to
or you can own the consequences of your actions. that you have lied and hurt people - even some of your close friends. and that you are not particularly happy about it.

and then start from there by deciding not to do that again.
its really that simple. in deciding you pursue whatever means necessary - if that means not drinking then so be it. going to a therapist to talk about it. whatever you need to do.
the things you cannot put a price on in this world are respect and friendship. you can only earn these things. you cannot buy them. and you will suffer without them.

LegacyUser

Dudess wrote: »

Have to say I never understood that whole protecting the sister thing.

Men know what men are like and dont want some horrible man treating their sister like a hoo-er

Dudess

Yep, they see a little too much of themselves in them. Ridiculous crap. And the girl just MAY be able to look after herself...

ntlbell

Dudess wrote: »

Yep, they see a little too much of themselves in them. Ridiculous crap. And the girl just MAY be able to look after herself...

If all the girls can look after themselves why is everyone harping on about what this guy is doing?

The "older brother syndrome" is generally to girls who are young, and they know that (sweeping generalization) most guys are capable of telling a girl lies to get her to sleep with him, in 30 or so years I haven't met a guy who wasn't capable.

Plus this guy is obviously pretty young and hanging around with a few headbangers.

he's had the "balls" to come here and admit things a lot of guys have done at some stage (maybe not sleep with thier mates gf) and ask for help..

People need to calm down a bit...

Dudess

Did I say "all" the girls?

ntlbell

Dudess wrote: »

Did I say "all" the girls?

no.

You said you didn't understand the brother protecting the sister thing.

I assume that's all sisters?

LegacyUser

you sound just like a friend of mine, he appears to be at the same crap as you, maybe it is him
I've tried to talk to him about it to no avail, its because you are insecure

Nevyn

Keep on topic please and remember that
Unhelpful and off-topic posting will get you banned from this forum.
Do take time to read the charter which contains the rules and abide by them.
Have a nice day.
Thaedydal

Dudess

ntlbell wrote: »

he's had the "balls" to come here and admit things a lot of guys have done at some stage (maybe not sleep with thier mates gf) and ask for help

Yeah I agree with that.

LegacyUser

Hi OP. You're getting a fair amount of bashing here and to be honest I agree with quite a bit of what other people have said but I'll take a different tack as nobody mentioned this, I think.
You say you do want a girlfriend, as opposed to the constant hooking up with randomers? What for? Regular sex, or do you actually have a concept of what else would be involved in a relationship?
I'd suggest that if you want to change your behaviour, you give some thought to what you have to offer as a boyfriend. It would be great to meet someone who wants to have regular sex with you, but think about finding a partner who you consider an equal, who you have a laugh with and also serious or stimulating conversations, a woman who is also a fully rounded person in fact! And who likes you for all your qualities, too, including but not limited to the sexual chemistry.
Basically, start getting to know women and start thinking of them as people, you don't have to sleep with all of them! Are you afraid you have nothing else to offer them?

sexcrazed

Disclaimer: No sympathy in this post.

sexcrazed wrote: »

So my problem is that with a few drinks in me towards the end of the night I have an urge to hook up. This has caused me to do some bad things. I have hooked up with mates girlfriends, I have hooked up with friends of girls that I am considering going out with, I have hooked up with mates sisters, girls my mates are interested in, girls I dont even like, I have strung along girls (Yeah we'll defo go out come back to mine tonight) lots of **** like that. Sometimes I really like a girl but then the minute I **** her I don't want anything to do with her. If I find out a girl I have ****ed is going out with someone else I dont know why but I have an urge to screw her again to get one over pretty bad and I regret it the next day but when I am drunk literally the only thing I think about is SEX. I don't like meeting up with girls unless its going to result in sex.

Maybe u need to alter your perception on women? Maybe try meeting women in places other than nightclubs for instance?

Also, shagging mates girlfirends? U dont see a problem with that? Im a randy fecker when im drunk too and my best mates ex of 4 years threw herself at me a few weeks ago and I said no. U clealry could care less about your mates, or women in general. maybe, and I'm dead serious, u need to look at why you're so inwardly focused. u clearly view women as tools for sex and nothing more, certainly not as people. And when they get with someone else u wanna shag them again to get one over? thats really sound of you, these girls are very lucky.

sexcrazed wrote: »

no girls see me as boyfriend material

How could this be?

sexcrazed wrote: »

I am seen as a player and its hard to get rid of that reputation

Leading to:

sexcrazed wrote: »

I JUST CANT STOP SCREWING AROUND.

=

sexcrazed wrote: »

And the notion of going out on a 1 on 1 date, sober, no chances of sex?? absolutely alien to me

and yet.....

sexcrazed wrote: »

I want a girlfriend

:rolleyes::rolleyes:


Dude, newsflash. having a girlfriend = going on a 1 on 1 date sober, with sex not being the dominant theme..........



Personally I think u need a bit of soul searching before u try getting a girlfriend. u clearly have "relationship issues" judging from your blatant disregard for your friends and for women. seriously, try talking to a professional cos something is causing that.

RickJames

I dont think you're hooking up at all. It isn't a personal issue apart from the fact that you need to stop living in cloud coo coo land. This is a fantasy of yours and you need to develop some respect for yourself. I never post on this forum but read it regularly and your post was too transparent to ignore. You're telling lies and you need to grow up. You don't have a conscience to tell your friends but you feel the need to tell boards.ie that you're rattling their girlfriends? Try and stop this for your own sake. It won't do any good in the long run and trying to boost your confidence temporarily in this way will not work. You need a solid foundation....

HouseHippo

well 1st stop drinking.At least for a while,
You8 cou8ld possibly have a sex addiction. Maybe **** a few times a day, might mae your urges go away.

LegacyUser

thanks for the responses so far. I decided to text a girl and see if she wanted to do something tonight so i'll see how that goes. oh and rickjames i always tell my friends what happened most never want anything to do with me but some dont blame me but the girlfriend which in some instances is fair enough.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Dudess wrote: »

Yep, they see a little too much of themselves in them. Ridiculous crap. And the girl just MAY be able to look after herself...

Actually this pop-psychology laden logic is ridiculous crap. Guys are protective over sisters for the same reason fathers are. Your nephews/nieces/grandchildren share 25% of your genes so its in your interest to make sure shes not getting stuck with some guy whos gonna sleep with her and then disappear. Our instincts aren't aware of contraception. Men don't get as protective over brothers/sons because guys dont get stuck with babies.

Anyway OP, would you be willing to talk to a psychologist? I think if you got talking to one you might open up to yourself and realise this isn't what you want.
I also think if you met a girl you really really liked it could sort you out. But definitely talk to a psychologist, sooner or later you're gonna get burned, be it your reputation ruining something special with a girl, a serious hiding or herpes.

Dudess

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Actually this pop-psychology laden logic is ridiculous crap. Guys are protective over sisters for the same reason fathers are. Your nephews/nieces/grandchildren share 25% of your genes so its in your interest to make sure shes not getting stuck with some guy whos gonna sleep with her and then disappear. Our instincts aren't aware of contraception. Men don't get as protective over brothers/sons because guys dont get stuck with babies.

Whatever. Again, it's probably because those fathers/brothers see a lot of themselves in the particular guy being dated by their daughter/sister. That kind of over-protectiveness is quite creepy imo. Thankfully my dad and brothers were never like that to me.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Dudess wrote: »

Whatever. Again, it's probably because those fathers/brothers see a lot of themselves in the particular guy being dated by their daughter/sister.

What, like that they're men? that there's a possiblity they might want the ride and nothing else? Why is that actually relevent?

That kind of over-protectiveness is quite creepy imo. Thankfully my dad and brothers were never like that to me.

Perhaps you're actually just upset that your father & brother were never like that & now you're trying to justify it as being proper order *puts down "psychology for beginners"*