Mink question

stevoman

Hi lads. Im not looking to start a fight i just want to know your opinions. im a regular member of the hunting thread and im not going to ask my question there as the answer will be obvious as we are all hunters, but im interested to know what your perspective is on this.

As you are all most probobly aware mink and an unwelcome alien visitor here in Ireland and once living in the wild does a substantial amount of damage to our natural wildlife such as duck, pheasents, otters, water hens, chickens and most ground animals that are here in Ireland. Where i regularly with my walk my dog and where i fish i have seen mink trails and i set a cage trap around these areas. This is not a killing trap but a cage so as in the event of a non mink species getting into it i can release it with no harm done. the cage is just a samll square cage with an opening and once the mink enters it the door is closed and it effictvly keeps the mink within the cage. Of course if i do catch a mink i do dispatch it in a humane and quick manner.

Oftentimes i go down to check it and find that people either set it off or on other times damage it in the thoughts that they are doing good, but in fact if the mink continue to breed as they are our natural wildlife will suffer greatly due to them.

What i am wondering as you are nature people, do you agree with the mink trap or would you damage it and set if off as others have done, or would you consider the greater good and leave it be?

Kaldorn

Hello,

sorry to say but I would be more inclined to damage it or simply take it away with me,this is due to my own ignorance obviously.i would presume being on a river it would be for otters and although you personally are fine letting non mink animals go. who is to say that most other trappers/hunters would,I have seen the hunting forum and alot of people wouldnt think twice about killing a fox for instance.here is a few pics of my last run in with mink and i let them go,i know they are invaders but i cant really bring myself to kill anything.I would kill crows or magpies but thats probably about it. i think alot of other nature fans would be inclined to agree with me regarding damaging the trap or setting it off because at the end of te day anything could end up in it.

Kal

stevoman

point taken. here's a the rat version of the trap that i use. as you can see that it is not a killing trap, rather a catching trap. i have recently put a a sign on it stating that the trap is for mink purposes. thanks for your response.

Kaldorn

Thats a great idea putting the notice on it,If i came across it with that sign i wouldnt go near it,I wish all hunters were as considerate as you

Kal

stevoman

Kaldorn wrote: »

Thats a great idea putting the notice on it,If i came across it with that sign i wouldnt go near it,I wish all hunters were as considerate as you

Kal

you be suprised as most of them are, but like everything it can just take a very small few to bring down everyones name.

whitser

Kaldorn wrote: »

Hello,

sorry to say but I would be more inclined to damage it or simply take it away with me,this is due to my own ignorance obviously.i would presume being on a river it would be for otters and although you personally are fine letting non mink animals go. who is to say that most other trappers/hunters would,I have seen the hunting forum and alot of people wouldnt think twice about killing a fox for instance.here is a few pics of my last run in with mink and i let them go,i know they are invaders but i cant really bring myself to kill anything.I would kill crows or magpies but thats probably about it. i think alot of other nature fans would be inclined to agree with me regarding damaging the trap or setting it off because at the end of te day anything could end up in it.

Kal

i'll probably regret starting this but here goes- your ok with mink being killed? you'd personally kill magpies and crows but you have a problem with foxes being killed? does that not seem a tad strange or even hipocritical.

artieanna

whitser wrote: »

i'll probably regret starting this but here goes- your ok with mink being killed? you'd personally kill magpies and crows but you have a problem with foxes being killed? does that not seem a tad strange or even hipocritical.

I agree..

Personally if a trap was marked for catching mink I would leave it be.

I would think for every mink trapped, a whole lot of wildlife would be saved.

Kaldorn

whitser wrote: »

i'll probably regret starting this but here goes- your ok with mink being killed? you'd personally kill magpies and crows but you have a problem with foxes being killed? does that not seem a tad strange or even hipocritical.

Mink-invasive not native species responsible for untold damage to local native wildlife populations
Crow-non protected skavenger with multitudes of them about.
Magpie-also invasive responsible for attacking and destroying countless song birds.

I can see your point and i suppose it can come across as hypocritical(forgive the spelling) but I have to agree with certain forms of control otherwise the local fauna we all know and love can be threatened,who doesnt love the red squirell? no one..the grey fookers are running rampant around the place and i know they are cute but they need to be sorted,the mink and the grey squireel are two good examples of species that need to be eradicated and i stand by my misspelt words on that!

whitser

you seeem to have forgoten about the fox in your post.
crows-ok
magpies-ok
mink-ok
grey squirrells-ok
fox-?
this is a nature page so im not getting into a hunting debate,just making a point.

boneless

I am interested in seeing where this debate goes but I put the caveat in place: if it becomes "a thread of discontent" it gets locked.

OP, Thanks for starting this topic. I think it will give us all food for thought.

I would also be obliged if there is anyone here on the forum from the NPWS? Could they give us the official line on mink and other invasive/introduces species?

stevoman

boneless wrote: »

I am interested in seeing where this debate goes but I put the caveat in place: if it becomes "a thread of discontent" it gets locked.

OP, Thanks for starting this topic. I think it will give us all food for thought.

I would also be obliged if there is anyone here on the forum from the NPWS? Could they give us the official line on mink and other invasive/introduces species?

thanks bonelesss im definitly not going to get into a debate as i have the hunting forum to talk about my love of hunting, my main reason for posting is to try and find out the non hunting nature loving members views on invasive species and how they look at the situation at hand.

boneless

stevoman wrote: »

thanks bonelesss im definitly not going to get into a debate as i have the hunting forum to talk about my love of hunting, my main reason for posting is to try and find out the non hunting nature loving members views on invasive species and how they look at the situation at hand.

I have to confess here to being a huntin', shootin', fishin' guy in my early years. It was through this I became interested in conservation, so I know where you are coming from friend. It is an important question which can be emotive. That's the only reason I put the parameter in place re discontent.

Kaldorn

Re: the fox
I have a passionate love for an madra rua so i wouldnt condone any form of control,just my personal opinion!

whitser

you see theres people who are nature/animal lovers who dont understand that certain species need to be culled for the benifit of other species.
spring watch with bill oddie isnt filmed on some nature reserve thats untouched by man,its filmed on a commercial shooting estate that has keepers to control vermin species,thats why theres such a wide variety of birds and mammalls.
i love foxes and hunt them and i certanly wouldnt like to see them eradicated from our natural landscape but it is important to control them. but i think mink and grey squirell should be hunted and if possible eradicated from our land. the grey has been solly responsible for the danger the red is in. an as for mink,they have led to the almost extinction of the water vole in england,they do untold damage.
and conservationists know this, not all animal lovers can crasp it.

brianthebard

OP I think what you are doing is a very good idea, and a service to the Irish countryside. However, even with a sign on the trap I think a lot of people might still set it off, even if they "had the best intentions". Is there any way you could leave it in a less conspicuous place, or hide it a bit better? I'm assuming there's more than you walking this path with a dog, so perhaps it would be better to get the trap away from the human traffic?

whitser

there are some who even with a sign will damage the trap. i would say prevention is better then cure and try and put it somewhere were it cant be found.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

As someone actively involved in conservation I would have no problem with a mink trap but it must be labeled as ,if in doubt, I would spring any trap I came across. The notion of putting it out of sight is nonsense as I know from species trapping for recording purposes, a trap must be placed where the particular animal is most likely to be.
On the whole Crow/Magpie/Fox front I think it certainly hypocritical to kill magpies but not foxes. Generally the killing of Magpies (from a conservation angle) in un-necessary and people should read some of the research carried out over the past 20 years into the relationship between Magpie and Songbird numbers before jumping to conclusions.

whitser

i ment out of sight from joe public not the mink. there must be a better place to put the trap where it'll be harder for just anyone to come across it.
either way a note might help but i think some will still spring the trap.

stevoman

yes lads i have begun to place the trap hidden with overgrowth over it. i do see where concerned people are coming from, my hope is that as nature lovers we can all highlight the dangers invaders such as mink can pose to irish wildlife. the same goes for the red squrrell although i fear that problem is going to be a lot harder to combat.

personnally i do not choose to hunt a fox as my quarry simply because i enjoy spending my time more hunting rabbits and pheasents and duck all of which are eaten by myself. i do not condone anyone hunting a fox either once it is done in a humane and respectful manner, and from most of the guys i know on boards they more then qualify under those terms, including whitser who has tremendous respect for foxes.

back to the point though if i did happen to see a snare i would remove if i didnt see any livestock (sheep or chickens) around the place as i would not consider it humane and no creature on gods green earth in my opinion deserves to die a slow and agonising death or be put through so much trauma. as with my trap no trauma or pain is instilled in the animal as it just a normal cage, so if any other creature does happen to get in it i can release them straight away.

stevoman

just a quick quesation to throw out there folks. Do you think as a whole all us nature enthusiasts are doing enough for the conservation of Irelands wildlife, or are the views of society eg - trapping mink and magpies is cruel, is ignorant when thinking of the bigger picture?

(again folks not a hunting debate - a nature debate)

whitser

joe public has a big say here.
for example,st.annes park on dub's northside is alive with grey squirells, they pushed out most if not all the reds(which used to be common there). now if the corpo tried to cull all the greys to re-introduce the reds there'd be out cry. "you cant kill the little grey squirells!", but unless you do your wasting your time trying to introduce back the red. fact is some will never condone the culling of foreign or vermin species no matter what.

It wasn't me!

I've said it before: I love animals. I find most animals far more pleasant than a lot of people. I do not however give them status on a par with humans, and have no problem with them being killed for various reasons. I support the control of species for their own good and the good of the environment and the balance of species in it. I support the shooting of deer to maintain healthy herds and forestries; I support the hunting of foxes to maintain healthy fox populations and to alleviate their predatory effects on ground-nesting birds and livestock; I support the strong control of mink and grey squirrels because they have an enormously negative effect on our countryside; I support the control of rabbits, pigeons and corvids in order to protect agricultural lifestyles.

I don't support eradicating any of them, bar possibly mink (because they're the WMD of our wildlife habitats), but I do believe they need to be firmly controlled. The countryside benefits and we have more balanced populations of healthier animals. I would be annoyed by anyone breaking, stealing or falsely triggering traps because it's not your business, the trap is not illegal, and you're interfering with wildlife conservation. For that matter, no-one has the right to assume something is illegal either, such as assuming a mink trap is for otters.

To be quite honest, hunters need more credit, far more credit, than they're given. They are at the forefront of wildlife conservation and natural co-operation. People above have shown a negative impression of hunters, and seem to think stevoman and others like him who respect and love wildlife and animals are the exception rather than the rule, when the reverse is very much the case. Now when you interact with him, you wish all hunters could be like him and have such respect, and the fact of the matter is that most of them do, and are very much aware of their environment. That's been my experience both in real life, and on the hunting forum in a big way.

togster

tbh i think the nature people here have been very fair and understanding of stevo's views.

It wasn't me!

They have, but my point was that they seem to be shocked at finding a hunter so personable. Something that a lot of people who don't hunt but love or work with nature can find very difficult to swallow, is the fact that hunters have the same end in mind, but a different way of doing it.

togster

Yes i agree with you. Both sides have stereotypical views of one another. This is because of mis-information largely. There are good people on both sides and there are tits on both sides.

dogmatix

I'm no fan on alien invasive species - god knows I hate Magpies - and I would be in favour of removing (culling) such species. And i'm always saddened to see the continuing decline of the red squirrel. So a mink trap and other measures sounds like a good idea.

It does raise the interesting question - maybe having done the damage we should just let nature get on with it? Except in cases where it causes significant environmental damage (like rabbits and toads in australia) maybe we should just ignore it? This sort of thing happens down through the ages with or without the intervention of man.

But it's just a question i'd pose for debate purposes - my own current opinion would be the preserve local flora and fauna as much as possible.

Alun

dogmatix posed an interesting philosophical question there. In other words, playing the devils advocate a bit, what exactly is a native species after all? Go back far enough in time and most species found here weren't native .. they all arrived here by some means or another, including our good selves. At what point in time does the newcomer become a native?

The same thing goes for habitats, many of which are either directly man made, or have come about as an indirect result of mans' involvement, but which we have decided in our wisdom are "better", "prettier" or whatever and therefore worthy of conservation / preservation.

It wasn't me!

Madame TogBog wrote: »

Yes i agree with you. Both sides have stereotypical views of one another. This is because of mis-information largely. There are good people on both sides and there are tits on both sides.

Agreed. Misinformation and the fact that most people will eventually say something stupid they don't really mean without thinking, and that's the image of them and the soundbite that will stick with them every time. I've no time for assholes on either side of the argument (and there are enough of them), and I will sit and politely debate hunting against non-hunting conservation methods until the cows come home with any one of the many perfectly intelligent, polite and coherent members of either side of the debate, and while things can get heated, in most cases there remain no hard feelings and sometimes people hear something new and thought-provoking.

Zzippy

Alun wrote: »

dogmatix posed an interesting philosophical question there. In other words, playing the devils advocate a bit, what exactly is a native species after all? Go back far enough in time and most species found here weren't native .. they all arrived here by some means or another, including our good selves. At what point in time does the newcomer become a native?

Yes, an interesting conundrum. My opinion would be that a species is "native" if it has become naturalised to the habitat here over a long period of time, such that it is no longer having a negative impact on other species or the habitat itself, but rather that the ecosystem has evolved a balance including that species. Mink and grey squirrel are still too new to this country to be classed as naturalised as they are still impacting on other species.

The next question is: at what point do we give up on intervention and allow nature to run its course? Or do we continue to try to manage the ecosystem in a way that protects or sustains native species at a certain level, for economic or altruistic reasons? One example I'm thinking of would be pike control as practised by fisheries boards on certain lakes in Ireland in order to protect stocks of salmonid fish which are economically important to the communities around those lakes...

Pye

Kaldorn wrote: »

Crow-non protected skavenger with multitudes of them about.
Magpie-also invasive responsible for attacking and destroying countless song birds.

You forgot the sparrow hawk. Killer of blue tits, great tits, finches, all manner of song birds. Surely you're not going to control them too? Magpies take the burden for every predatory bird in the country. I personally feel it's selective thinking because people dislike them. Furthered by so called nature experts carrying on that myth in national news papers and the like. For each magpie you kill, ten more will replace it. You will never win, they are part of our ecology, part of our world and here to stay. I will never understand killing them to "save the song birds".

You'd do better to raise the population of small insects, caterpillars and the like. Keep native plants in your gardens and let hedges grow large and bushy for the spring breeding season.

Jacoby Careful Pediatrician wrote: »

On the whole Crow/Magpie/Fox front I think it certainly hypocritical to kill magpies but not foxes. Generally the killing of Magpies (from a conservation angle) in un-necessary and people should read some of the research carried out over the past 20 years into the relationship between Magpie and Songbird numbers before jumping to conclusions.

Yes and there is a lot of information about on this subject. As I said though, avoid newspaper articles. I read one and was disgusted with the author's sheer ignorance to the subject since he claims to be a wildlife expert. I wrote in but as usual, no response.

dogmatix wrote: »

I'm no fan on alien invasive species - god knows I hate Magpies.

Magpies - Not an invasive species nor alien. Mink on the other hand are and were introduced by us, the most destructive species on earth.

Also stevoman. I've nothing against the culling of mink and other invasive species so long as it's humane which I'm sure it is. I commend your respect for nature. I'm just miffed at why people feel the need to cul species who do belong here with the pathetic excuse that they "kill songbirds". We can help songbirds without killing other birds. Our gardens for a start are most likely the first problem when it comes to nesting. Many people even fail to observe laws on cutting trees and hedges during the breeding season and insist on keeping their gardens "clutter free" and clean cut. Foxes I agree in some places may need controlling but it must be done humanely.

sesswhat

All other issues aside, trapping the odd animal here and there is not going to have any significant effect on mink numbers though you might eventually harvest enough for that fur coat. If you remove one, and free up a stretch of territory, it will soon be occupied by another mink.

Even if you used hundreds of traps and removed large numbers over a wide area, populations could recover quite quickly afterwards, so you would have to maintain the trapping indefinitely to control the local population.

Eradicating mink from Ireland completely would be a massive project and it's simply never going to happen.

You may be interested in reading about the time, money and effort being spent by the Scottish National Heritage on the Hebridean Mink Project.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

sesswhat wrote: »

All other issues aside, trapping the odd animal here and there is not going to have any significant effect on mink numbers though you might eventually harvest enough for that fur coat. If you remove one, and free up a stretch of territory, it will soon be occupied by another mink.

Even if you used hundreds of traps and removed large numbers over a wide area, populations could recover quite quickly afterwards, so you would have to maintain the trapping indefinitely to control the local population.

Eradicating mink from Ireland completely would be a massive project and it's simply never going to happen.

You may be interested in reading about the time, money and effort being spent by the Scottish National Heritage on the Hebridean Mink Project.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with your short-sighted approach to wildlife conservation. In Scotland £1.6Million was good value for a 5 year project eradicating Mink on 4 Islands. (That project team also carried out valuable surveys and research concerning ground nesting birds during the life of the project).
The NPWS has been very successful in making significant inroads into Mink number in many areas around Ireland. Your "Hundreds of traps" are being used and each is responsible for the removal of many mink every year. With continuous trapping we get to a point where another mink does not move into the territory. This takes a lot less time than you might imagine. Mink numbers in Ireland have decreased substancially over the past 10 years so something we're doing is working despite your pessimism.

It wasn't me!

And individuals not connected with NPWS do their part as well. I'm going to attempt to get permissions for all the waterways around my area and walk them with a shotgun and try and make a dent in their numbers as well.

dogmatix

Pye wrote: »

Magpies - Not an invasive species nor alien. Mink on the other hand are and were introduced by us, the most destructive species on earth.

Maybe calling Magpie's invasive might be a bit strong but I would still class them as Alien. Magpie's did not exist in Ireland until the late 1600's - they where first reported in Dublin in the 19th century.

Maybe it depends on timescales - they've been in Ieland for over 300 years so perhaps it's time to stop calling them aliens/blowin's and grant them honoury irish citizenship?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

dogmatix wrote: »

Maybe calling Magpie's invasive might be a bit strong but I would still class them as Alien. Magpie's did not exist in Ireland until the late 1600's - they where first reported in Dublin in the 19th century.

Maybe it depends on timescales - they've been in Ieland for over 300 years so perhaps it's time to stop calling them aliens/blowin's and grant them honoury irish citizenship?

1650s - Magpies colonised Ireland naturally and are therefore not classed as alien nor introduced. Would you consider Stock Doves as Alien? Same story there. Many more similar examples around the country.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

It wasn't me! wrote: »

And individuals not connected with NPWS do their part as well. I'm going to attempt to get permissions for all the waterways around my area and walk them with a shotgun and try and make a dent in their numbers as well.

I wish you luck trying to make any dent in Mink numbers by walking around with a Shotgun. They can be hard to find at the best of times. To see them in a situatin condisive to shooting them would be unusual. Trapping works as the traps are secreted in Mink areas where the mink move about unseen. Why not get permission to trap the mink?

It wasn't me!

Yeah, I know. Seen a few while fishing though, so reckon I might be able to knock off a few of them. I'll probably set a few traps as well, if I think they won't be triggered or stolen or broken by any fool that happens across them. Was thinking a plan of setting pipe traps in banks, along with leaving baits of oily fish around the bank, and observe with a rifle and lamp, as well as walking at night with shotgun and lamp. Trapping will probably yield the highest number, but every dent made helps I guess.

artieanna

I think its all about balance here...

When animal populations are at a point where culling is in their best interest, it has to be done. where animals are causing great damage to other wildlife it has to be done.

I commend stevoman and any other hunters who have respect for wildlife and kill only what they will use.

I know instances where beautiful animals/birds (phesants,rabbits even fish) are hunted in large numbers and then dumped all for sport...

This is very wrong!

Will ye leave the poor oul magpies alone! They are not the worst.

It wasn't me!

artieanna wrote: »

I think its all about balance here...

No truer words spoken.

I commend stevoman and any other hunters who have respect for wildlife and kill only what they will use.

Personally, I have no enormous enthusiasm for killing vermin. It's a good thing to do, and there's sport in it, but it's not my sport. I prefer the notion of killing only something I'm going to eat, but there's a duty to the environment to give back to it for what it gives someone who chooses to live off it as much as possible, and that means maintenance.

I know instances where beautiful animals/birds (phesants,rabbits even fish) are hunted in large numbers and then dumped all for sport...

This is very wrong!

Yes, very wrong. Shameful, and hard to understand, as all are delicious and nutricious. It's just wasteful.