Unions don't want to freeze Public Pay

the_syco

[url=http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/13152578?view=Eircomnet]eircom.net[/url] wrote:

The Irish Congress of Trade Unions (Ictu) has said that it would not listen to calls for a pay pause in the public service.

Employer's group Ibec yesterday called for the introduction of a pay pause for public service employees in the wake of a report published by the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) which warned the country was slipping into recession.
Ictu General Secretary David Begg said today there was no public appetite for pay restraint and there were whole groups of people who had “their snouts so deep in the trough for so long” that unions could not sell such a message even if it was the right thing to do.

Mr Begg said the public servants already have had to deal with a pay pause in the current agreement as well as a small reduction in wages as a result of higher inflation.

In a position paper on inflation and pay, Ictu said that a new pay freeze would further erode consumer confidence and reduce domestic demand and prolong the inflation.
Mr Begg said this evening it was “no coincidence that all this bad news was emerging in the middle of these pay negotiations”.
In an article for The Irish Timesin the wake of the ESRI forecast, Ibec director of policy Danny McCoy said the increase in unemployment was already giving rise to a greater degree of wage restraint in the private sector through market forces.

"This pay restraint must also be reflected in the job-secure public sector. The private sector will not be prepared to pay for higher public-sector pay growth by the loss of their jobs or businesses. The rapid deterioration in the public finances has to be addressed. The only way of doing this, while sustaining Ireland's long-term prosperity, is by reining in current expenditure growth, whilst preserving much of the capital expenditure committed under the National Development Plan", he said.

Taoiseach Brian Cowen has urged unions to exercise restraint in the current round of pay talks. Responding to questions from Opposition leaders in the Dáil yesterday, the Taoiseach accepted economic growth this year would fall short of the predictions made a few months ago and action would have to be taken.
The ESRI said that an end to Ireland's decade-long property boom and slowing consumption would lead to a 0.4 percent fall in gross national product this year after 4.5 per cent rise in 2007 and predicted Ireland would have its first recession since 1983.
It also said the general Government balance would show a deficit of 2.8 per cent of GDP this year after a 0.3 per cent surplus in 2007 and worsen to a 3.9 per cent deficit in 2009.
Mr Cowen said that dealing with a lower-than-expected growth rate was a challenge, but he added that the Government would deal with it on the basis of taking the correct course now so that growth in the economy could resume when the upturn came.
While Mr Lenihan refused to be drawn on whether the Government would consider a public-sector wage freeze, he said in a television interview that there would be discussion with the social partners about the difficulties facing the country that everybody would have to reflect on.

Sack a few of them, and then see how they'll listen.


Ooops.


They don't get sacked, that's private sector I'm thinking of.


Ah, sure, they'll have no wages if people don't give them money.



Ooops.


Wrong again. They're spending my tax, which will keep going to them, unlike my job, which may go if people don't give my employer money...

Maybe not a total pay-freeze, but certainly a freeze on the automatic pay rise we private sector always hear the public sector getting?

dresden8

This is the same public service we've had since forever. The downturn is not the civil servants fault. It's the same civil service from three years ago when everything was on the up. The same civil service from the last boom and the last recession. Ad infinitum.

Kimbot

dresden8 wrote: »

This is the same public service we've had since forever. The downturn is not the civil servants fault. It's the same civil service from three years ago when everything was on the up. The same civil service from the last boom and the last recession. Ad infinitum.

It is indeed. I think this is madness. People that work in the private sector doing my job are on a hell of alot more money than me in the public sector and now the public sector are being blamed for the economy going to fall on it a$$.

leninbenjamin

jonny24ie wrote: »

It is indeed. I think this is madness. People that work in the private sector doing my job are on a hell of alot more money than me in the public sector and now the public sector are being blamed for the economy going to fall on it a$$.

private sector does tend to be a hell of a lot more efficient. and the economy was very badly mismanaged by the government, the landing could have been made a lot softer tbh. and everyone is to blame for the recession. everyone's a consumer. civil service frankly should be made feel the ups and downs as much as any other sector. might even encourage them to be a bit more efficient.

Zombrex

leninbenjamin wrote: »

private sector does tend to be a hell of a lot more efficient.

Depends on how you define efficient. The main measure of success in the private sector is money, how much the company makes, something the public service isn't measure by. While the private sector may be efficent at making money, to really see a comparison you would have to ask the private sector to have the same priority as the public sector. And there have been a fair share of disasters in terms of private sector industry attempting to provide a public service, since again a private companies focus is on profit, not providing a service.

irish_bob

Wicknight wrote: »

Depends on how you define efficient. The main measure of success in the private sector is money, how much the company makes, something the public service isn't measure by. While the private sector may be efficent at making money, to really see a comparison you would have to ask the private sector to have the same priority as the public sector. And there have been a fair share of disasters in terms of private sector industry attempting to provide a public service, since again a private companies focus is on profit, not providing a service.

well if you mean service in terms of regard for the public , then the private sector is a hundred million times better , a common theme when you enter a state building is that those who work there all share a common attitude to the public , it is one of , do you know who i am , i am a selfless slave of the state for whoom you should be eternally gratefull , to my selfless dedication to mother ireland

ixoy

jonny24ie wrote: »

It is indeed. I think this is madness. People that work in the private sector doing my job are on a hell of alot more money than me in the public sector and now the public sector are being blamed for the economy going to fall on it a$$.

Rightly so in part though - there's huge amounts of redundancy and wastage in the civil service. Lots of jobs created that aren't actually required leads to spiralling costs that are now affecting us.

As to not getting paid the same - I've seen public sector pay scales and they're often quite healthy and various reports have put public sector pay as being more than adequate versus private sector. It's also about comparing like with like - public sector hours are generally shorter and when you factor in the likes of generous coffee breaks, bank time, generous overtime measures many aren't working equivalent times to the private sector so certainly shouldn't be paid the same (even if they are getting paid as well).

mountainyman

leninbenjamin wrote: »

private sector does tend to be a hell of a lot more efficient. and the economy was very badly mismanaged by the government, the landing could have been made a lot softer tbh. and everyone is to blame for the recession. everyone's a consumer. civil service frankly should be made feel the ups and downs as much as any other sector. might even encourage them to be a bit more efficient.

Private sector waste and mismanagement is not made public. The private sector is in my experience LESS efficient that the public sector. The dotcom boom was not the public sector's fault.
I can think off the top of my head of ten or twelve terribly wasteful setups in the private sector but they are not any of my business or yours.

mountainyman

irish_bob wrote: »

well if you mean service in terms of regard for the public , then the private sector is a hundred million times better , a common theme when you enter a state building is that those who work there all share a common attitude to the public , it is one of , do you know who i am , i am a selfless slave of the state for whoom you should be eternally gratefull , to my selfless dedication to mother ireland

That's just nonsense. Are you saying you have nevoer had to queue in a bank? What about trying to get money BACK from an insurance company?
Alot of the moaners about the public service seem never to have had a job in the private sector. The private sector is massively mismanaged.

This doesn't excuse public sector waste. But have some perspective for goodness' sake.

irish_bob

mountainyman wrote: »

That's just nonsense. Are you saying you have nevoer had to queue in a bank? What about trying to get money BACK from an insurance company?
Alot of the moaners about the public service seem never to have had a job in the private sector. The private sector is massively mismanaged.

This doesn't excuse public sector waste. But have some perspective for goodness' sake.

the difference between the public sector and private sector when it comes to mismanagment is that there are consequences for those who mismanage in the private sector
the only people who would claim that the private sector is less efficent than the public sector are either the insane , pathological liars or those who work in the public service , i suspect your the latter , the private sector couldnt afford to be as inneficent as the public service because those in the private sector are either spending there own money to run a business or they are working for somone who is spending there own money to run a business , there is a checks and balances system that governs the private sector that does not apply by any comparrison in the public sector where a profit and loss sheet simply does not exist


i have never been made feel valued in a state dept like i have in a car dealership , a hardware store or even a bank and while i may not have been able to speak to the sales man in a toyota garrage or the financial consultant of a bank the 1st time i rang them , i could always be sure of them calling me back
i have never yet had a return call from a state dept after one attempt and it once took me three months to get to talk to the local engineer in my local co council area with regard an illegal act being commited over time on a public highway near where i live , baschially a guy decided he owned a section of a public highway and proceeded to park a car on it for 3 mths , the gardai said it was a civil matter and told me to contact the county council , both examples of the type of buck passing that is a cultutal norm within the public sector

your whole post typifys the arrogance and sense of entitlement that is endemic within the public sector, you thnk your above reproach and when it comes to the question of value for money , you expect the tax payer to cough up regardless of wider economic conditions and regardless of what your colleagues have done to warrant a pay rise

sense of entitlement

Zombrex

irish_bob wrote: »

well if you mean service in terms of regard for the public , then the private sector is a hundred million times better

Not sure how someone could say that.

Again the primary purpose of a private company is to make money. If providing a service to the public facilitates that then that is what they will do, if it doesn't then they won't.

There are countless examples of this throughout the business world, in Ireland and abroad.

The most obvious Irish example is Eircom. Despite strong warnings at the time that a state should never privatize it's own infrastructure, the government privatized not only Telecom Eireann company but the network itself.

This has lead to the very frustrating situation where Eircom will simply not provide a quality telephone and internet service to the people of Ireland. Eircom, having a strong hold on the industry through operating the network, have no incentive to advance the usage of the network in Ireland, and other companies wishing to provide competition still have to fight Eircom every step of the way.

Eircom may be very efficient at running a money making company, there is no interest in serving the public beyond this.

If you think companies are being nice to you it is because they want your money. They have no actual interest in you, and if you don't have something they want they going give a figs about you.

jmayo

Wicknight wrote: »

Not sure how someone could say that.

Again the primary purpose of a private company is to make money. If providing a service to the public facilitates that then that is what they will do, if it doesn't then they won't.

There are countless examples of this throughout the business world, in Ireland and abroad.

The most obvious Irish example is Eircom. Despite strong warnings at the time that a state should never privatize it's own infrastructure, the government privatized not only Telecom Eireann company but the network itself.

This has lead to the very frustrating situation where Eircom will simply not provide a quality telephone and internet service to the people of Ireland. Eircom, having a strong hold on the industry through operating the network, have no incentive to advance the usage of the network in Ireland, and other companies wishing to provide competition still have to fight Eircom every step of the way.

Eircom may be very efficient at running a money making company, there is no interest in serving the public beyond this.

If you think companies are being nice to you it is because they want your money. They have no actual interest in you, and if you don't have something they want they going give a figs about you.

Eircom is now private but remember it was once a public sector company and before that an offshoot of the department of post and telegraphs.
Becuase of that it is highly unionised and a lot of the employees still think they are in a public sector company.
Thus any attempts at streamling or improving efficiency are met with danger of industrial disputes.
The service is cra* and that is not something that happened overnight.
The service from Eircom (public sector) and Telecom Eireann was cr** also.
I wonder really how efficient they are at making money, they are a monopoly to a degree so not hard to make money in that case.

And I do agree the government should not have privatised the actual network just like in UK the government should not have privatised the rail network but that is a different discussion.

When someone stated the civil service (and I include all of the public sector in here) had nothing to do with the fix we are in, I would ask who are the ones running basic services in this country for last ten years.

Who are the ones that plan infrastructure projects that were allowed come in so late and over budget and had no cost controllers ?
Who are the ones advising the Ministers of Finance who allowed the construction area become so important to our economy ?
Who are the ones working in department of health, HSE who have squandered budgets and increased their own job numbers by over 60 % with no real discernable improvement in patients services ?

The ESB have affectively kept workers employed in unused power stations and this cost is passed onto consumers and business users with big price hikes.
What effects does the above have on business competiveness ?

mumhaabu

The Civil servants and Unions are about to launch Ireland into a political, financial and constitutional crisis. Ireland is in difficulty not seen since 1983 and we have the potential to either become a basket case where things can spiral all the ways to Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe or else become a shining beacon of success.

Sadly I can see the Zimbabwe route becoming more likely. Ireland badly needs Iron Fist leadership and Margaret Thatcher is exactly what we need. How dare the unions hold the country to ransom. Unless important decisions are taken now this crisis will escalate furthur and Ireland will literally implode there is no safety net.

A wage freeze is needed for all sectors and the minimum wage needs to be reduced to around €6.80 an hour. The jobs for life in the public sector must end now forever. Hold a referendum now if neccesary, Ireland can weather this and the red unions and socialists need to be crushed. The law regarding employers and Union recognition must be made optional and their needs to be a crackdown on renegade workers.

The Public sector wage bill alone has Ireland on its knees, there needs to be at least 100,000 public sector staff laid off and use the gardai and army if necessary to stop the unions. Ireland is a sovereign state but it these tough actions now that are needed to save the economy. It will be decisve and will tear communities and families apart. However where would the United Kingdom be today had Margaret Thatcher backed down, fair play to her she broke the british unions and set it up to be economic powerhouse it bacme until Blair and Brown and the Labour/Union Party undone alot of good work.

Vital Infrastrusture needs to be kept under state-ownership but it can be managed and run privately. I beleive that, Irish Rail, Bus Eireann and the entire CIE group should be broken up and completly privatised however making provision so that the entire Rail Network, remain in state ownership, however private companies could run, maintain and manage the trains and buses and compete against each other. Valuable land banks and unused property should be sold and used to find improvements like high-speed rail etc.

Similarly the ESB should be split (as is happening at snails pace), the Network and Generation should remain under state ownership and everything else should be private, crack the unions and introuduce competition and interconnect to the UK and allow the british companies in here to compete and likewise the ESB plants could pump spare capacity to the UK. Sell the remaining shares in Aer Lingus and Privatise Bord na Mona completly and do the same to Bord Gais as I have explained earlier about the ESB.

However the most important thing is to ensure 3 things are done.

Break the Unions, using any means neccesary
Privatise and Outsource the majority of the Civil Service, use the Army as neccesary
Privatise the Entire HSE and introduce Education Vouchers and encourage private education, where the state will pay their share of a childs private education, leading to a better service.

These measures will bring Ireland back on track however they will never get implemented due to this Fianna Fail government who cannot see beyond an election and are afraid to put manners in anyone. Our Children would thank us for it.

Minimum Government = Equals Maximum economy = thus jobs and success.
Socialism & Unions = Famine and backwardness, Socialism is a failure the wall is gone, shave the beards fellas.

sovtek

mumhaabu wrote: »

Minimum Government = Equals Maximum economy = thus jobs and success.
Socialism & Unions = Famine and backwardness, Socialism is a failure the wall is gone, shave the beards fellas.

I guess that's why the Scandanavians are so skinny these days eh? The Chicago School approach definitely doesn't work. Ask Pinochet.
What a great idea...lets lower the minimum wage so people have LESS money to spend in a era of price gouging and inflation. That's a brilliant idea to get the economy going.

irish_bob

mumhaabu wrote: »

The Civil servants and Unions are about to launch Ireland into a political, financial and constitutional crisis. Ireland is in difficulty not seen since 1983 and we have the potential to either become a basket case where things can spiral all the ways to Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe or else become a shining beacon of success.

Sadly I can see the Zimbabwe route becoming more likely. Ireland badly needs Iron Fist leadership and Margaret Thatcher is exactly what we need. How dare the unions hold the country to ransom. Unless important decisions are taken now this crisis will escalate furthur and Ireland will literally implode there is no safety net.

A wage freeze is needed for all sectors and the minimum wage needs to be reduced to around €6.80 an hour. The jobs for life in the public sector must end now forever. Hold a referendum now if neccesary, Ireland can weather this and the red unions and socialists need to be crushed. The law regarding employers and Union recognition must be made optional and their needs to be a crackdown on renegade workers.

The Public sector wage bill alone has Ireland on its knees, there needs to be at least 100,000 public sector staff laid off and use the gardai and army if necessary to stop the unions. Ireland is a sovereign state but it these tough actions now that are needed to save the economy. It will be decisve and will tear communities and families apart. However where would the United Kingdom be today had Margaret Thatcher backed down, fair play to her she broke the british unions and set it up to be economic powerhouse it bacme until Blair and Brown and the Labour/Union Party undone alot of good work.

Vital Infrastrusture needs to be kept under state-ownership but it can be managed and run privately. I beleive that, Irish Rail, Bus Eireann and the entire CIE group should be broken up and completly privatised however making provision so that the entire Rail Network, remain in state ownership, however private companies could run, maintain and manage the trains and buses and compete against each other. Valuable land banks and unused property should be sold and used to find improvements like high-speed rail etc.

Similarly the ESB should be split (as is happening at snails pace), the Network and Generation should remain under state ownership and everything else should be private, crack the unions and introuduce competition and interconnect to the UK and allow the british companies in here to compete and likewise the ESB plants could pump spare capacity to the UK. Sell the remaining shares in Aer Lingus and Privatise Bord na Mona completly and do the same to Bord Gais as I have explained earlier about the ESB.

However the most important thing is to ensure 3 things are done.

Break the Unions, using any means neccesary
Privatise and Outsource the majority of the Civil Service, use the Army as neccesary
Privatise the Entire HSE and introduce Education Vouchers and encourage private education, where the state will pay their share of a childs private education, leading to a better service.

These measures will bring Ireland back on track however they will never get implemented due to this Fianna Fail government who cannot see beyond an election and are afraid to put manners in anyone. Our Children would thank us for it.

Minimum Government = Equals Maximum economy = thus jobs and success.
Socialism & Unions = Famine and backwardness, Socialism is a failure the wall is gone, shave the beards fellas.

is this michael o leary

no seriously , you have my vote should you decide to run for election

mountainyman

boThe public sector needs to bring in sacking no doubt about that. However
[1] Private sector waste is endemic
[2] Eircom is a private company
[3] Those who advocate radical free market solutions to this country's difficulties would be collecting cans in a meritocratic society
[4] Both the Garda and the Army are public sector workers.
[5] The consequences for those who mismanage in the private sector are a joke. Privatised upside and socialised downside that's the orld we live in.

To advocate radical meritocracy and permit inherited wealth is oxymoronic.

I have never worked as a civil servant. I am self employed and work with both private companies and state bodies. State bodies tend to be more efficient.

By the way Irish Bob your remarks are inappropriate but as I respect civil servants I don't regard them as an ad hominem attack.

It is not the function of a state department to make you feel valued as you go to collect your methadone or whatever your interaction with that department may be. Franky as a radical meritocrat you should recognise that if the people in that state body seem to think that they are better than you this might be because they are.

Just a thought.

MM

irish_bob

mountainyman wrote: »

boThe public sector needs to bring in sacking no doubt about that. However
[1] Private sector waste is endemic
[2] Eircom is a private company
[3] Those who advocate radical free market solutions to this country's difficulties would be collecting cans in a meritocratic society
[4] Both the Garda and the Army are public sector workers.
[5] The consequences for those who mismanage in the private sector are a joke. Privatised upside and socialised downside that's the orld we live in.

To advocate radical meritocracy and permit inherited wealth is oxymoronic.

I have never worked as a civil servant. I am self employed and work with both private companies and state bodies. State bodies tend to be more efficient.

By the way Irish Bob your remarks are inappropriate but as I respect civil servants I don't regard them as an ad hominem attack.

It is not the function of a state department to make you feel valued as you go to collect your methadone or whatever your interaction with that department may be. Franky as a radical meritocrat you should recognise that if the people in that state body seem to think that they are better than you this might be because they are.

Just a thought.

MM

were you born obnoxious or have you just worked hard on it over the years , if its the latter , the post above shows you have perfected it to a fine art

eigrod

irish_bob wrote: »

well if you mean service in terms of regard for the public , then the private sector is a hundred million times better ,

really ?

ever had to deal with Chorus/NTL ?
ever tried to get a builder back to do your snag list (come to think of it, ever tried to contact a builder at all, once you've paid him ?)
ever have a painter/plumber come on the date & time agreed ?
ever get those annoying calls from phone companies trying to make a sell to you just as you're trying to get the kids to sleep ?

This "public sector bad - private sector good" generalisation really is ridiculous.

irish_bob

eigrod wrote: »

really ?

ever had to deal with Chorus/NTL ?
ever tried to get a builder back to do your snag list (come to think of it, ever tried to contact a builder at all, once you've paid him ?)
ever have a painter/plumber come on the date & time agreed ?
ever get those annoying calls from phone companies trying to make a sell to you just as you're trying to get the kids to sleep ?

This "public sector bad - private sector good" generalisation really is ridiculous.

you could say the same about the builder bad , nurse good generalisation

to answer your question about the builder and plumber , i dont have cable
a neighbour of mine over the road is a builder and hes reliable , another neighbour of mine is an electrician and hes also reliable
ive had good experiences in that regard
ive had nothing but bad experiences with the local county council and ive had nothing but bad experience with state depts from health to the enviroment to agriculture to justice

eigrod

irish_bob wrote: »

you could say the same about the builder bad , nurse good generalisation

to answer your question about the builder and plumber , i dont have cable
a neighbour of mine over the road is a builder and hes reliable , another neighbour of mine is an electrician and hes also reliable
ive had good experiences in that regard
ive had nothing but bad experiences with the local county council and ive had nothing but bad experience with state depts from health to the enviroment to agriculture to justice

exactly !

There's good & bad customer service in both public & private sector. Your initial post which I quoted seemed to suggest that the vast majority of good customer service can only be found in the private sector.

You know a good builder, I know a bad one.
I got rid of Cable simply because of the atrocious customer service.

You've had bad public sector customer experiences. I've had great experiences with Revenue over the past couple of years with regard to swift, easy repayments. I've recently had a great service with regard to getting my Passport renewed. It's never been easier & quicker to tax my car.

It's the sweeping generalisations that people make about the "public sector" when times get a little tough that I find ridiculous & ill thought out.

gurramok

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/bre...breaking59.htm

"Average weekly earnings for the State’s 256,600 public sector employees rose by 3.6 per cent to €931.38 by the end of last year"

Thats about 48k average and we haven't even included generous pensions and jobs for life security yet folks.

Average Ind Wage about 33k, somethings amiss, think about it.

And, oh yeah, open the public sector to immigration like the private sector has done.

eigrod

gurramok wrote: »

And, oh yeah, open the public sector to immigration like the private sector has done.

Silly thing to say. You've never seen an "immigrant" employee of the HSE ????

Oh, and...........

http://www.diversityireland.ie/News/Newsletter_March_2006/Policing_Diversity.html

Garda Drive to Recruit Ethnic Minorities
Date: 01 March 2006

NPAR contains measures to enhance the role and capacity of An Garda Síochána in policing our diverse communities. “Like the rest of Europe, Ireland has become multicultural and our immigrant population is rising,” said Garda Assistant Commissioner, Catherine Clancy. “In order to police a multicultural and diverse society effectively, it is imperative that the police force represents that society”.


Two Dun Laoghaire based Ethnic Liaison Officers and Dave McInerney from the Garda Racial and Intercultural Office with members of ethnic communities



The Strategic Monitoring Group of NPAR has been working with senior Gardaí to develop a new entry system aimed at making it easier for immigrants to sign up. For example, knowledge of the Irish language is no longer a requirement for entry but instead this will be a component of the Garda training programme.

Applications to join the police force can be made by any citizen of the EU or by any non Irish national who has been lawfully resident here for at least five years.

In October of last year, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Michael McDowell, appealed to non Irish nationals to consider a career in the Gardaí. Since the programme’s launch, more than 800 non Irish nationals, the majority of them Chinese, have applied to join the Gardaí. Almost 200 - half of them Chinese - have passed the initial aptitude test to join the force.

This initiative demonstrates the commitment of An Garda Síochána to effective policing in a more diverse Ireland which is crucial to the future wellbeing of our society. The successful introduction of this new recruitment strategy effectively highlights the difference that the National Action Plan’s measures can make in society once they are implemented.

Two examples, I'm sure there are plenty others across the public sector.

Oh, and most importantly of all, I think you will find that the Public Sector places all people on the same pay scales, irrespective of where they were born. Can the Private Sector put hand on heart and say the same ?????

stovelid

jonny24ie wrote: »

It is indeed. I think this is madness. People that work in the private sector doing my job are on a hell of alot more money than me in the public sector and now the public sector are being blamed for the economy going to fall on it a$$.

For better or (usually) worse, I think the private sector is more likely to regulate itself in hard times. Most rank and file private workers are more resigned to the fact of job losses and/or wage freezes during a recession. This is obviously not the case with the public sector unions.

gurramok

eigrod wrote: »

Silly thing to say. You've never seen an "immigrant" employee of the HSE ????

HSE is probably the only place you see the immigrant factor through nurses and doctors(many admin staff??) and maybe a handful of teachers.
Bring in immigrants especially to the civil service.

eigrod wrote: »

http://www.diversityireland.ie/News/Newsletter_March_2006/Policing_Diversity.html

Think you will find less than 5 of those applicants managed to get qualified. Thats out of 14,000+ officers!

eigrod wrote: »

Two examples, I'm sure there are plenty others across the public sector.

Bring them on.

eigrod wrote: »

Oh, and most importantly of all, I think you will find that the Public Sector places all people on the same pay scales, irrespective of where they were born. Can the Private Sector put hand on heart and say the same ?????

Don't know what you are saying here, everywhere has their own pay scales and don't discriminate on who you are(those equality laws)

Can you defend the average wage of 48k along with 12%+ pensions in the public sector?

eigrod

gurramok wrote:

HSE is probably the only place you see the immigrant factor through nurses and doctors(many admin staff??) and maybe a handful of teachers.
Bring in immigrants especially to the civil service.

But you said Public Sector – the HSE is the largest aspect of the Public Sector ! Now you’ve changed your mind and are saying the Civil Service which is only a small part of the Public Sector.

I'm sure there are areas within the Private Sector that are not so good at recruiting immigrant workers also !

gurramok wrote:

Think you will find less than 5 of those applicants managed to get qualified. Thats out of 14,000+ officers!

So the entry criteria should be changed to suit a particular minority or minorities ? hmmmmm, interesting.

I am personally aware of the efforts that are made by the Garda HR (also touched on in the article I quoted above) to reach into minority communities and help them through the entry process. Therefore the “Public Sector” is proactively doing something about the very point that you said they are not.

gurramok wrote:

Originally Posted by eigrod
Two examples, I'm sure there are plenty others across the public sector.

Bring them on.

Well given that you changed your point from “Public Sector” to the much smaller “Civil Service” since I posted that, I’m not sure I can now.

gurramok wrote:

Don't know what you are saying here, everywhere has their own pay scales and don't discriminate on who you are(those equality laws)

You saying that the Polish & Latvian labourers were paid the same as their Irish equivalent over the past 8 years or so ? Four words that will refute that - GAMA Construction Ireland Limited.

Why are there so many Polish workers in my local SPAR and why won’t the Irish no longer work there ?

gurramok wrote:

Can you defend the average wage of 48k along with 12%+ pensions in the public sector?

Where in my post did I attempt to defend this or tackle that point from your post ? I was merely responding to your rather sweeping generalisation…. “And, oh yeah, open the public sector to immigration like the private sector has done.”

gurramok

eigrod wrote: »

But you said Public Sector – the HSE is the largest aspect of the Public Sector ! Now you’ve changed your mind and are saying the Civil Service which is only a small part of the Public Sector.

Nope, i highlighted the civil service as one area that needs to be opened to cheaper labour via way of immigration.(most immigrants dont earn much hence they do jobs the Irish don't want)

eigrod wrote: »

I'm sure there are areas within the Private Sector that are not so good at recruiting immigrant workers also !

Lets name them, i'm struggling to think of an area, help me

eigrod wrote: »

So the entry criteria should be changed to suit a particular minority or minorities ? hmmmmm, interesting.

Why not if we are to promote integration?

eigrod wrote: »

I am personally aware of the efforts that are made by the Garda HR (also touched on in the article I quoted above) to reach into minority communities and help them through the entry process. Therefore the “Public Sector” is proactively doing something about the very point that you said they are not.

Thats one small section which has failed miserably.

eigrod wrote: »

Well given that you changed your point from “Public Sector” to the much smaller “Civil Service” since I posted that, I’m not sure I can now.

I offered some parts of HSE and a few teachers, educate me on what parts are open to immigrants? (the Garda one don't wash)

eigrod wrote: »

You saying that the Polish & Latvian labourers were paid the same as their Irish equivalent over the past 8 years or so ? Four words that will refute that - GAMA Construction Ireland Limited.

Contractors. Not all immigrants are in contracting, alot are paye.

eigrod wrote: »

Why are there so many Polish workers in my local SPAR and why won’t the Irish no longer work there ?

Cheaper wages, let them into the vast pubic sector(civil as well)

eigrod wrote: »

Where in my post did I attempt to defend this or tackle that point from your post ? I was merely responding to your rather sweeping generalisation…. “And, oh yeah, open the public sector to immigration like the private sector has done.”

Waiting for concrete examples of where it is opened up. Immigration will help drive down wages which is a good thing as it has affected lots of private sector areas.

Joeface

Well I been reading all these posts and Have come up with the following

1.)Private Sector Takes all the risks So the reward should be better at the end
2.)This is where the Funds come from
3.)Preformance is key in the private sector , I know form my own Job F*ckup and im gone.
4.)yes Private sector services suck sometime , If you dont like the company move to another. Problem with Public and Civil service , if you are dealing with a crap dept u cant really go anywhere else

5.)Unions in general in this country have it all wrong at the moment(public and private) If they want to help get us back on track they really should be moving ppl out to the lower wage countries and pressing workers rights there.instead they are here asking for more and more money.The more expensive we get the bigger our problems will be.

6.)These wage deals are bogus.All wages should be based on proformance , and an other % for inflation . Comparing what the guy in the private sector gets and the public sector employies demanding the same is Complete waste of Tax payers money. Public/Civil service sector has always had the job security ,time and other benfits that out way many privates sector jobs.

Im not Anti public sector, but I really dont get this idea of paying vast sums of money to ppl who have no one Confriming whether or not they are preforming.If tax shortages start to interfere with the public wage bill will the go for pay cuts or will they borrow and increase taxes ....some how i cant see wage cuts.

Kimbot

All increments and payhikes in the civil service are now only given upon successful proof of meeting your targets etc every year which have to be agreed upon with your superiors.

eigrod

gurramok wrote: »

Nope, i highlighted the civil service as one area that needs to be opened to cheaper labour via way of immigration.(most immigrants dont earn much hence they do jobs the Irish don't want)

Nope, you clearly said "public sector"...see :

gurramok wrote: »

And, oh yeah, open the public sector to immigration like the private sector has done.

Had that said "And, oh yeah, open the Civil Service to immigration like the private sector has done", I wouldn't have responded.

irish_bob

eigrod wrote: »

Nope, you clearly said "public sector"...see :



Had that said "And, oh yeah, open the Civil Service to immigration like the private sector has done", I wouldn't have responded.

your splitting hairs

one of the main differences between the public and private sector is the old two many cooks spoil the broth scenario

were you to for example have an oil delivery business , home heating oil , diesel for trucks , busses etc , you would only need one driver on each delivery truck , the driver would fill out the relevant paperwork

in the public service , you might have a 2nd person employed to handle the paper work for the driver , not because they were needed but to satisfy union demands or the latest employment figures
maximising capital is not a priority in the public service like it is in the private sector

mountainyman

gurramok wrote: »

Bring in immigrants especially to the civil service.

Rather than bringing in immigrants it would be more logical to outsource routine tasks to secure facilities in third world countries.

For example, a prison could be opened in Morocco suing local staff but run under Irish law. That'd soften the POA's coughin'.

mountainyman

Joeface wrote: »

5.)Unions in general in this country have it all wrong at the moment(public and private) If they want to help get us back on track they really should be moving ppl out to the lower wage countries and pressing workers rights there.instead they are here asking for more and more money.The more expensive we get the bigger our problems will be.

That's not the union's role. The union's job is to get as much money as possible for their members.

The problem is not Benchmarking it is Relativites.
[1] Politicians want a pay raise
[2] Their pay is linked to civil service grades
[3] So raise the pay of those civil servants
[4] That raises the pay of the grades below
[5] The public sector wage bill goes up
[6] Politicians are given their raise

That's the main thing. Sure if your daddy dies and you take over his seat and never accomplish anything you are entitled to be the best paid prime minister in Europe.

mountainyman

irish_bob wrote: »

in the public service , you might have a 2nd person employed to handle the paper work for the driver , not because they were needed but to satisfy union demands or the latest employment figures
maximising capital is not a priority in the public service like it is in the private sector

You might, or you might have one administrator employed to do the work for all three drivers. You might have anything.
You might in the private sector have to work with your boss's idiot son or his mistress.
You have an interesting style of argument anyway. Argument by imaginary anecdote.

mountainyman

irish_bob wrote: »

were you born obnoxious or have you just worked hard on it over the years , if its the latter , the post above shows you have perfected it to a fine art

I sincerely apologise if I have insulted you. I am used to the cut and thrust of business life and can be blunt and unsophisticated. Let us agree that though we disagree about the road to take we both want what is best for Ireland.

MM

irish_bob

mountainyman wrote: »

I sincerely apologise if I have insulted you. I am used to the cut and thrust of business life and can be blunt and unsophisticated. Let us agree that though we disagree about the road to take we both want what is best for Ireland.

MM

i dont accept insincere appologies , besides i wasnt looking for an appology , especially from an appologist for our pittiful public service

Sand

The Civil servants and Unions are about to launch Ireland into a political, financial and constitutional crisis. Ireland is in difficulty not seen since 1983 and we have the potential to either become a basket case where things can spiral all the ways to Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe or else become a shining beacon of success......Minimum Government = Equals Maximum economy = thus jobs and success.
Socialism & Unions = Famine and backwardness, Socialism is a failure the wall is gone, shave the beards fellas.

This post is a trumpet of pure signal in a sea of noise...

What a great idea...lets lower the minimum wage so people have LESS money to spend in a era of price gouging and inflation.

The govt sometimes needs to spend its way out of recessions [ and cut out silly season spending ], but the spending needs to be properly targeted. Simply putting more cash in Joe Bloggs pocket so he can buy tickets to Old Trafford and buy DVDs from the US may not really help the Irish economy as opposed to the UK and US economies...

You know a good builder, I know a bad one.
I got rid of Cable simply because of the atrocious customer service.

You've had bad public sector customer experiences. I've had great experiences with Revenue over the past couple of years with regard to swift, easy repayments. I've recently had a great service with regard to getting my Passport renewed. It's never been easier & quicker to tax my car.

It's the sweeping generalisations that people make about the "public sector" when times get a little tough that I find ridiculous & ill thought out.

And you can take your trade from the bad builder to the good builder, punishing the guy with lousy service. Competition rewarding better customer service.

You dont have that option with the public sector. Well, apart from emigrating which is fairly drastic...

fly_agaric

Sand wrote: »

This post is a trumpet of pure signal in a sea of noise...

Yer filter must be out of whack.
Surely it's bombastic & exaggerated bollox which it was a waste of time to write down and even more of a waste of time to read?

irish_bob

fly_agaric wrote: »

Yer filter must be out of whack.
Surely it's bombastic & exaggerated bollox which it was a waste of time to write down and even more of a waste of time to read?

speak for yourself , id hedge a bet that the view you refer to would be widely held by the non union , working majority

Zombrex

Sand wrote: »

And you can take your trade from the bad builder to the good builder, punishing the guy with lousy service. Competition rewarding better customer service.

You dont have that option with the public sector. Well, apart from emigrating which is fairly drastic...

Which is why we no longer have bad builders in this country .... oh wait :rolleyes:

The idea that competition creates better service is largely a myth, because true competition and truth choice is also a myth.

It is not easy to operate a business, and the successful ones are not necessarily the ones with the best service but the ones with the most money or influence or position of power.

There are hardly any companies that I regularly deal with in my normal life and which have competition (Eircom, NTL, ESB, Ryanair, Aer Lingus) etc that I can simply drop and go to a competitor who offers a much better service.

The competitors either simply aren't there or simple offer the same lousy service at the original company. Or they charge much more for better service.

An example I recently was annoyed with is SMS text messaging. SMS message costs the mobile phone company nothing, absolutely nothing. It pigbacks on the dialing channel, that is cheap for the company and has to be in place anyway for people to make calls. Originally when SMS was introduced no one paid for it, until the phone companies realised they could make money out of this.

So in this wonderful efficient, private sector utopia, I should surely simply vote with my feet and leave my current mobile provider and go to the competition that offers free text messaging. Except there isn't one, because the phone companies are interested in making money, not providing me with the best most cost effective service. None of the phone companies are going to give up the massive revenue from SMS (which provides something like 90% of revenue from the under 21s), simply to attract my business. Competition only works if what you offer the company in terms of your custom is more attractive to them than simply sticking with what their competitors are doing. So you get the phone companies fighting by dropping SMS by one or two cent each.

Contrast this with the public service. If a a public service department was charging a ridiculous amount of money for a service they could provide totally free (say Dublin Bus charged you for baggage for no particular reason other than to make money) there would be up roar and the company would have to justify why it was doing this. And "Because we want to screw the customer for more money" isn't a good enough reason.

eigrod

Wicknight wrote: »

The competitors either simply aren't there or simple offer the same lousy service at the original company. Or they charge much more for better service.

or it means your money is going to a foreign based company with little or no investment/employees in Ireland....eg SKY.

stevoman

the_syco wrote: »

Sack a few of them, and then see how they'll listen.


Ooops.


They don't get sacked, that's private sector I'm thinking of.


Ah, sure, they'll have no wages if people don't give them money.



Ooops.


Wrong again. They're spending my tax, which will keep going to them, unlike my job, which may go if people don't give my employer money...

Maybe not a total pay-freeze, but certainly a freeze on the automatic pay rise we private sector always hear the public sector getting?

what a load of bulls*it. im a civil servant so i am. why should some of us be sacked. i come to work everyday and do a very efficient job. I joined the civil service 7 years ago and since then all i have been listening to my friends who work on the buildings and in the private sector is lauph at me because about how much more money they were making than me. Now that the arse is falling out of everything their all up in arms because i have a guaranteed wage coming in. You just cant win so you can't. Are a lot of civil servants to blame because the had the hindsight to apply and get themselves into the public sector jobs for the securtiy of it! i think not!

ixoy

stevoman wrote: »

what a load of bulls*it. im a civil servant so i am. why should some of us be sacked. i come to work everyday and do a very efficient job.... ETC ETC

There's a number of things then:

Firstly, there may have been discrepancies in public/private pay seven years ago but these have been addressed and most recent reports show that public pay is now at least on a par with private pay. And yet...

There's a lot of jobs in the public sector that just don't need to exist. Much administrative work isn't required - HSE is is the obvious example but it exists everywhere. These jobs could easily be curbed and the government's pay bill reduced but the unions won't let them - in the private sector it is generally far easier to make job cuts to improve effeciency (or, at the very least, to make job cuts).

Now people pay taxes and fund this and they can see how their money is being wasted. With a private company they're more likely to have a choice to go elsewhere if they disagree with this spending. It can be infuriating to see civil servants complaining when it seems they've little to complain about - good pay (according to independent bodies) plus lots of other perks that they don't often recognise (pensions, relatively short working week, great holidays, the likes of "bank time", etc).

Or to summarise: people are paying lots of taxes to seemingly employ lots of people to do what may quite a well-paid easy job that may not even need doing. It doesn't endear much sympathy, regardless of how accurate or inaccurate this perception is.

irish_bob

stevoman wrote: »

what a load of bulls*it. im a civil servant so i am. why should some of us be sacked. i come to work everyday and do a very efficient job. I joined the civil service 7 years ago and since then all i have been listening to my friends who work on the buildings and in the private sector is lauph at me because about how much more money they were making than me. Now that the arse is falling out of everything their all up in arms because i have a guaranteed wage coming in. You just cant win so you can't. Are a lot of civil servants to blame because the had the hindsight to apply and get themselves into the public sector jobs for the securtiy of it! i think not!

the above post epitomises the kind of ingrained sense of entitlement that public servants have

there attitude is , i go to my post day in day out , selflessly for mother ireland

Sooooo,


What jobs exactly need to be cut then? Seeing as you all seem to be such experts.. People seem to be all bluster about this, and it really seems that they're going on what their mate told them in the pub about "Dem civil servants wha/loike.." etc


And reduce the minimum wage? lol. to just over 200 quid a week (assuming you dont think people should need to work 14 hour days to house and feed themselves)? Why not just go on the Dole so? Get a nice council house maybe.

mountainyman

I simply do not understand the guff about the HSE.
More front line staff / less administrators bleat the sheep people. Who then should do the administration?

thebman

mountainyman wrote: »

I simply do not understand the guff about the HSE.
More front line staff / less administrators bleat the sheep people. Who then should do the administration?

So much of the administration work could be automated using new fangled things called computers.

So much paper work that doesn't need to exist.

My sister works in IT in the health service and says that any suggestion is made by the you can't change it, its worked like this for years attitude. Public sector isn't open to change, private sector forces change. Thats really the key difference as I see it.

Wicknight wrote: »

Depends on how you define efficient. The main measure of success in the private sector is money, how much the company makes, something the public service isn't measure by. While the private sector may be efficent at making money, to really see a comparison you would have to ask the private sector to have the same priority as the public sector. And there have been a fair share of disasters in terms of private sector industry attempting to provide a public service, since again a private companies focus is on profit, not providing a service.

Who fooking privatised eircom! Who is fooking failing to regulate eircom and the broadband industry in general? Who can't even manage to introduce fooking post codes?

The private industry has already introduced post codes for Ireland!

stevoman

irish_bob wrote: »

the above post epitomises the kind of ingrained sense of entitlement that public servants have

there attitude is , i go to my post day in day out , selflessly for mother ireland

sorry, but were you smoking crack before you wrote that post? what do you mean by ingrained sense of entitlement. I make €470 a week, thats a crap wages by todays standard considering what bills come out of it. and by the way i do a damn good job everyday. but at the end of it, i dont mind making my €470, when i consider how secure my job is right now, which is exactly why i jiones the civil service.

if you ask me, your post just seems bitter. i feel sorry for you.

irish_bob

stevoman wrote: »

sorry, but were you smoking crack before you wrote that post? what do you mean by ingrained sense of entitlement. I make €470 a week, thats a crap wages by todays standard considering what bills come out of it. and by the way i do a damn good job everyday. but at the end of it, i dont mind making my €470, when i consider how secure my job is right now, which is exactly why i jiones the civil service.

if you ask me, your post just seems bitter. i feel sorry for you.

i feel sorry for me too , after reading your post , i feel even more downbeat about the public service and more certain of my views on it too

stevoman

irish_bob wrote: »

i feel sorry for me too , after reading your post , i feel even more downbeat about the public service and more certain of my views on it too

yeah, well enjoy worrying about your future..... i wont:D

oscarBravo

Before this thread spirals into a predictable morass of public -vs- private sector resentment, everybody calm down.

I've seen two viewpoints regularly expressed on this subject: one is that all public servants are lazy feckers, and the other is that all public servants are overworked martyrs. Both are untrue.

What is true is that a percentage of the public service carry another percentage on their backs. Many public servants work hard, put in long hours without overtime, and generally care about doing a good job. Many more are clock-watchers who do the bare minimum to justify their existence.

This is true of the private sector also, but to a lesser extent. What's also sadly true is that unions in both sectors seem to believe that they should offer equal protection to both classes of workers.

mountainyman

brim4brim wrote: »

So much of the administration work could be automated using new fangled things called computers.

I have worked as an external consultant with the 'health service' and they do use computers quite effectively. They also track work done effectively and use much more effective internal audit processes than anywhere I have encounteredin the private sector.

brim4brim wrote: »

My sister works in IT in the health service and says that any suggestion is made by the you can't change it, its worked like this for years attitude.

Your sister is the problem. Why isn't she driving change and enabling new synergies? Actually I agree with you here. It is a huge organisation. That's why we need sacking in the Civil Service.

I have thought as regards the health service 'Why not bring the victims out to talk to the recalcitrants'

brim4brim wrote: »

Public sector isn't open to change, private sector forces change. Thats really the key difference as I see it.

That's an assertion, not an argument. Have you ever worked in the private sector?

brim4brim wrote: »

Who fooking privatised eircom! Who is fooking failing to regulate eircom and the broadband industry in general?

What does that have to do with the civil service? It was a political decision.