Frank Warren and Joe Calzaghe...

nacho libre

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/7469896.stm

Calzaghe won't fight Pavlik:mad:

I know history will say he's never lost but even for people who rate him there will a negative against him for ducking Pavlik. If you believe you are the best you have to fight the best not go for big pay days against a shot fighter:mad:

cowzerp

To be honest he was never going to fight Pavlik, this would show joe up for what he is and would be his 1st fight against a world class opponent who was not washed up, History wont remember this, they'll remember him as unbeaten and the defeater of BHOP! I'd love to see this fight, would be a rough fight but mostly on poor joe tbh..

Big Ears

cowzerp wrote: »

To be honest he was never going to fight Pavlik, this would show joe up for what he is and would be his 1st fight against a world class opponent who was not washed up, History wont remember this, they'll remember him as unbeaten and the defeater of BHOP! I'd love to see this fight, would be a rough fight but mostly on poor joe tbh..

Kessler imo clearly is, was and will prove to be further a World class opponent .

Robin Reid, Charles Brewer, Byron Mitchell, Richie Woodhall, Jeff Lacy, Chris Eubank(declined), Omar Sheika, David Starie, Mario Veit(x2), Sakio Bika, Bernard Hopkins(declined but still very good) were all very good fighters and there are many there who'd I'd consider World Class . But I'm guessing your criteria is more stringent so I'm only going to list Kessler as a World Class opponent .

Guys like Mkrtchian , Manfredo , Ashira, Kabary Salem were only around European level and the rest Sobot , McIntyre, Jimenez etc were domestic level fighters .

I'd really like to see this fight and it of course would be a poor reflection on Calzaghe if it's not made . But when did Pavlik become the second coming of Marvin Hagler ? , people are talking about him like a all time great but lets be honest here . If Calzaghe was to handle Pavlik and Pavlik was to have an average/poor career after that Pavlik would be described as another Lacy .

It's not Calzaghe's fault that Hopkins fight didn't take place 6 years sooner btw , as Showtimes's head of boxing described Hopkins and his team asked for $ 3 million , Warren shockingly accepted that offer and Hopkins team said they'd get back to them . The next day they contacted Showtime(who the negotiations were going through) and said they wanted $6 million from Warren .

We often here of such a guy is ducking such a guy , well whoever was making the decisions in the Hopkins camp did indeed duck Calzaghe by pricing themselves out of a fight .


It seems some people here are always picking Calzaghe to lose . versus Lacy, okay fair enough many people fancied the much hyped power punching American who was the 'Super-Middleweight Mike Tyson' .

versus Kessler, again fair enough Kessler is a top top fighter who will go on to prove further that he is genuine quality .

against Hopkins , once more fair enough considering what Hopkins has achieved not just overall but recently(beating Tarver and Winky) .

Now against Pavlik I once again won't have any problem with people picking Pavlik as he's a very good fighter with a big punch .

But people here were picking Jones to beat Calzaghe , and not just a few people either but a lot . Now that this fight is going to happen it will be criticised , and hell I criticise it as I think it's a very easy fight for Calzaghe against a washed up Jones , and by washed up I don't mean what Eubank or Hopkins were I mean genuine washed up .

So for those thinking Jones can beat Calzaghe then there shouldn't be too much to complain about , after all he's facing a real test anyway........


Pavlik still has business at 160 anyway and I'm not sure his team would want to fight at 170 or above .

Hero Of College

cowzerp wrote: »

To be honest he was never going to fight Pavlik, this would show joe up for what he is and would be his 1st fight against a world class opponent who was not washed up, History wont remember this, they'll remember him as unbeaten and the defeater of BHOP! I'd love to see this fight, would be a rough fight but mostly on poor joe tbh..

utter nonsense my brother!!!

Was Lacy Washed-Up?? Was Kessler washed-up? Or, is the HBO-Kellerman inspired revisionist-opinion now that neither were world class???

Bottom line is Kelly is a step down for Joe. He's a middlweight with like maybe 1 defence under his belt.

Since when did Kelly Pavlik become this dominant, long reigning champ that Joe needed to beat anyways???

Hero Of College

Big Ears wrote: »

Kessler imo clearly is, was and will prove to be further a World class opponent .

Robin Reid, Charles Brewer, Byron Mitchell, Richie Woodhall, Jeff Lacy, Chris Eubank(declined), Omar Sheika, David Starie, Mario Veit(x2), Sakio Bika, Bernard Hopkins(declined but still very good) were all very good fighters and there are many there who'd I'd consider World Class . But I'm guessing your criteria is more stringent so I'm only going to list Kessler as a World Class opponent .

Guys like Mkrtchian , Manfredo , Ashira, Kabary Salem were only around European level and the rest Sobot , McIntyre, Jimenez etc were domestic level fighters .

I'd really like to see this fight and it of course would be a poor reflection on Calzaghe if it's not made . But when did Pavlik become the second coming of Marvin Hagler ? , people are talking about him like a all time great but lets be honest here . If Calzaghe was to handle Pavlik and Pavlik was to have an average/poor career after that Pavlik would be described as another Lacy .

It's not Calzaghe's fault that Hopkins fight didn't take place 6 years sooner btw , as Showtimes's head of boxing described Hopkins and his team asked for $ 3 million , Warren shockingly accepted that offer and Hopkins team said they'd get back to them . The next day they contacted Showtime(who the negotiations were going through) and said they wanted $6 million from Warren .

We often here of such a guy is ducking such a guy , well whoever was making the decisions in the Hopkins camp did indeed duck Calzaghe by pricing themselves out of a fight .


It seems some people here are always picking Calzaghe to lose . versus Lacy, okay fair enough many people fancied the much hyped power punching American who was the 'Super-Middleweight Mike Tyson' .

versus Kessler, again fair enough Kessler is a top top fighter who will go on to prove further that he is genuine quality .

against Hopkins , once more fair enough considering what Hopkins has achieved not just overall but recently(beating Tarver and Winky) .

Now against Pavlik I once again won't have any problem with people picking Pavlik as he's a very good fighter with a big punch .

But people here were picking Jones to beat Calzaghe , and not just a few people either but a lot . Now that this fight is going to happen it will be criticised , and hell I criticise it as I think it's a very easy fight for Calzaghe against a washed up Jones , and by washed up I don't mean what Eubank or Hopkins were I mean genuine washed up .

So for those thinking Jones can beat Calzaghe then there shouldn't be too much to complain about , after all he's facing a real test anyway........


Pavlik still has business at 160 anyway and I'm not sure his team would want to fight at 170 or above .

Word. I mean, Pavlik didn't even look all that hot in his "Non-Title" fight at 166lbs. Another dominant yankee champ with 1 defence making non-title defences like he was some sort of an old-timer.:pac: Its always the same sh!t with the Americans, Lacy was half-Tyson-half-Holy and when he got whupped on, well, hells-bells, he was overrated and Taylor made {NO PUN!} for Calzaghe. Then Kessler was dismissed as Eurotrash and Hopkins was old. Not too old for Winky and Taylor and Oscar and Tito but old nonetheless, you see.

Just how the fcuk some lanky middlweight from Ohio with 1 defence under his belt {no pun again} gets to be the man around here is beyond me.

I wouldn't even pick Kelly to do all that well against the same version of Lacy that Joe destroyed. Kelly has no angles, no in-out-in-out....stylistically, Lacy would have fared waaaay better vs Pavlik.

Kellerman, HBO...they can all go pull their plum.

nacho libre

Hero Of College wrote: »

Word. I mean, Pavlik didn't even look all that hot in his "Non-Title" fight at 166lbs. Another dominant yankee champ with 1 defence making non-title defences like he was some sort of an old-timer.:pac: Its always the same sh!t with the Americans, Lacy was half-Tyson-half-Holy and when he got whupped on, well, hells-bells, he was overrated and Taylor made {NO PUN!} for Calzaghe. Then Kessler was dismissed as Eurotrash and Hopkins was old. Not too old for Winky and Taylor and Oscar and Tito but old nonetheless, you see.

Just how the fcuk some lanky middlweight from Ohio with 1 defence under his belt {no pun again} gets to be the man around here is beyond me.

Pavlik comprehensively beat Taylor twice that is an achievement. Dismantled Miranda who was highly regarded in some quarters. In the same way you accuse people of revision with regard to the quality of Calazghe's opponents you are doing the same with regard to Pavlik.

Pavlik or Abraham are the best out there at the moment that Calzaghe could fight. Fighting Pavlik, and beating him would also force those who say Pavlik would destroy him to eat humble pie:p
The excuses would have finally run out for his detractors!

Big Ears

nacho libre wrote: »

Pavlik comprehensively beat Taylor twice that is an achievement. Dismantled Miranda who was highly regarded in some quarters. In the same way you accuse people of revision with regard to the quality of Calazghe's opponents you are doing the same with regard to Pavlik.

Pavlik or Abraham are the best out there at the moment that Calzaghe could fight. Fighting Pavlik, and beating him would also force those who say Pavlik would destroy him to eat humble pie:p
The excuses would have finally run out for his detractors!

He should fight Dawson , how come he never fought Johnson , how come he never fought Jones , Abraham would be too powerful for him look what Abraham is doing at Middleweight , why did he duck Carl Froch , Lucien Bute is like a young Calzaghe and Calzaghe wants no part of him , Calzaghe should fight Tarver as he's never beaten a real Light-heavyweight .

Even guys like Mundine and Erdei would eventually get mentioned , there would never be an end to it .

Calzaghe is often criticised for not fighting James Toney , I mean FFS Toney was a Cruiserweight by the time Calzaghe was a World title holder at Super-Middleweight and Toney never even got back down to even Light-Heavyweight .

cowzerp

Hero Of College wrote: »

utter nonsense my brother!!!

Was Lacy Washed-Up?? Was Kessler washed-up? Or, is the HBO-Kellerman inspired revisionist-opinion now that neither were world class???

Bottom line is Kelly is a step down for Joe. He's a middlweight with like maybe 1 defence under his belt.

Since when did Kelly Pavlik become this dominant, long reigning champ that Joe needed to beat anyways???

I'll answer you and Bigears here!

Kessler is a potential top boxer, good win for joe.
Lacy, never was. all hype.
Eubank, was past it and was not amazing at any rate.
Hopkins was well past it and still won in my opinion, and would of found it easy when he ducked the fight because he knew he could earn more elsewhere.
the rest, average at best..none will be remembered by anyone. the likes of reid are good local fighters.

Fact is-you just dont like Pavlik, i dont like Calzaghe

nacho libre

cowzerp wrote: »

I'll answer you and Bigears here!

Kessler is a potential top boxer, good win for joe.

Do you rate Pavlik higher than Kessler?
If so, would it be more than a good win for Joe Calzaghe if he beat Pavlik?

cowzerp

nacho libre wrote: »

Do you rate Pavlik higher than Kessler?
If so, would it be more than a good win for Joe Calzaghe if he beat Pavlik?

If calzaghe beat Pavlik i'd say fair play to him and also that he can quit with a genuine top win on his card, ideally i'd like to see him have 2 or 3 fights at that level, Pavlik is better than Kessler at present, as i said Kessler has potential, and is a bit low on stamina at the top level i feel right now..

walshb

Anyone who can honeslty say Lacy is or was a very good fighter is so far off the mark.

Lacy was nothing and had nothing to offer.

World class fighters are Jones and Toney and Nunn and McCallum.

Cal's comp IMO was very ordinary and none would have given those
great fighters a good fight

Pav is world class, but still a notch below Hagler, Jones and Toney..

Reid is a decent European fighter, Eubank was well OLD when Cal
beat him.

I honestly was not impressed with Kesller; too one dimensional and very
predictable.

Hop was pretTy useless in the Cal fight and at 43; was also well past it.

These aren't excuses; these are hard facts

Big Ears

cowzerp wrote: »

I'll answer you and Bigears here!
Hopkins was well past it and still won in my opinion, and would of found it easy when he ducked the fight because he knew he could earn more elsewhere.
the rest, average at best..none will be remembered by anyone. the likes of reid are good local fighters.

Fact is-you just dont like Pavlik, i dont like Calzaghe

Interesting that he knew he could make more money elsewhere because at the tim of this Calzaghe was just after beating Charles Brewer and Hopkins had beaten Carl Daniels .

Hopkins then proceeded to fight no one for 14 months before he faced..........Morade Hakkar . Yep the Frenchman who was so badly outclassed it was ridiculous . I suspect Hopkins didn't earn anymore for this or even close to what he could of ford a Calzaghe fight .

In this timeframe Calzaghe beat two of the worst opponents he faced in Miguel Jimenez and Tocker Pudwill but followed that with a really good win over Byron Mitchell .

9 months after the Hakkar fight and 6 months after the Calzaghe v Mitchell fight Hopkins took on William Joppy in a mandatory defence . He yet again made less money than a Calzaghe fight .

The likes of Reid are good local fighters ????, Oisín Fagan is a good local fighter , Reid was one of the best Super-Middleweights in the World and a huge test . Reid had beaten a very good Henry Wharton and a prime Hacine Cherifi during his reign as WBC champion . He would later go on to be robbed in a fight against Sven Ottke for the WBA/IBF titles at a time when Ottke was considered up there with Calzaghe as the best Super-Middleweight .



Walshb when you say Reid was a European fighter do you mean European level or do you mean he's not as good cause he's Eurropean ?

Also the 4 fighters you named as World class Jones , Toney , Nunn and McCallum , happen to be some of the greatest 160-190(190 being the old Cruiserweight limit) lb fighters ever . They are all-time greats and fighters of their quality mightnt appear in some divisions for 15-20 years .

What do people here define as World Class ? , because to me it seems Cowzerp and Walshb are saying you have to be an all-time great to be World Class .

cowzerp

Big Ears wrote: »

The likes of Reid are good local fighters ????, Oisín Fagan is a good local fighter , Reid was one of the best Super-Middleweights in the World

C'mon, by local i agree with walshb, european level, not bad but certainly not world class.

Big Ears wrote: »

Walshb when you say Reid was a European fighter do you mean European level or do you mean he's not as good cause he's Eurropean ?

What do people here define as World Class ? , because to me it seems Cowzerp and Walshb are saying you have to be an all-time great to be World Class .

Im sure Bren means a european level fighter, agreed 100%
World class is the best of your time or 1 of a group of the best like leonard, duran, hearns etc in a special division..world class is a term bandied about to much, genuine world champs are world class.

Edit: Hopkins knew he could earn more for fighting clazaghe or similar for fighting easier fighters, calzaghe was a no name in the states and was a massive risk, just like collin's was for years.

eagle eye

Lots of fighters ducked Calzaghe for years, as mentioned already there was the Hopkins camp constantly upping the price and he called out Jones jnr a couple of times but was brushed aside as a nobody.

In all fairness to Calzaghe, he has always wanted a shot at Jones jnr and he is finally getting it. He wants that on his record before he finishes. I don't understand all the negativity here about Calzaghe, he has beaten everyone put in front of him. He suffers from a bad hand now, he is 36 years old and has been hinting for a number of years that he wants to retire. So now he is going to get a big payday against Jones jnr and that is the fight he has wanted his whole career.

I also think that Pavlik is a really good fighter but people are getting carried away too soon. I like what I've seen of him and I am sure he will be around for quite a while.

I agree with some of the posters about the weight difference. Calzaghe is now light-heavy and Pavlik is a middleweight. I don't see it ever happening as Pavlik is not going to move up to light-heavy and do you really expect Calzaghe to move down?

There are plenty of young boxers around at the moment, you have Andre Ward, Andre Dirrell and my favourite young boxer at the moment Vanes Martirosyan who is fighting at light middle at the moment. Lets see how he handles them over the next while before we get carried away.

And of course I forgot to mention Abraham here either. Lets see who ducks who in this one, I reckon Pavlik's camp won't want this fight.

walshb

Listen, we can name fighters till we're blue in the face and name
records and accomplishments etc etc; it doesn't take away from the fact
that Cal competed against average opponents and none like what I would
consider real class or great fighters. He just didn't, and it's not entirely
his fault; as he was born into a poor era.

Oh, and Reid is as I said, a good European level fighter

Hero Of College

nacho libre wrote: »

Pavlik comprehensively beat Taylor twice that is an achievement. Dismantled Miranda who was highly regarded in some quarters. In the same way you accuse people of revision with regard to the quality of Calazghe's opponents you are doing the same with regard to Pavlik.

Pavlik or Abraham are the best out there at the moment that Calzaghe could fight. Fighting Pavlik, and beating him would also force those who say Pavlik would destroy him to eat humble pie:p
The excuses would have finally run out for his detractors!

The guy has 3 worthy fights on his ledger!!!!! 3!! And 2 of them are the same man!!! And the other one had just got beat by his main challenger Abraham!!!

He doesn't have any opponents for me to revise!!!

a 2 man, 2 fight superhero!!

WOOOO-HAYYY!!!!

Hero Of College

walshb wrote: »

Anyone who can honeslty say Lacy is or was a very good fighter is so far off the mark.

Lacy was nothing and had nothing to offer.

World class fighters are Jones and Toney and Nunn and McCallum.

Cal's comp IMO was very ordinary and none would have given those
great fighters a good fight

Pav is world class, but still a notch below Hagler, Jones and Toney..

Reid is a decent European fighter, Eubank was well OLD when Cal
beat him.

I honestly was not impressed with Kesller; too one dimensional and very
predictable.

Hop was pretTy useless in the Cal fight and at 43; was also well past it.

These aren't excuses; these are hard facts

Fine then....you show us yer betting slip that has Calzaghe whitewashing the guy over 12.

Hero Of College

cowzerp wrote: »

If calzaghe beat Pavlik i'd say fair play to him and also that he can quit with a genuine top win on his card, ideally i'd like to see him have 2 or 3 fights at that level, Pavlik is better than Kessler at present, as i said Kessler has potential, and is a bit low on stamina at the top level i feel right now..

You're like an auld granny around the fire of a travellers camp.....you would make Jesus come off the cross and fight the Romans and when he had beaten them you'd makehim fight Mary Magdalene and say he was afraid if he didn't.

Come back to me when Pavlik isn't blowing out his arse at 166 against Jermaine Failure.

walshb

Hero Of College wrote: »

You're like an auld granny around the fire of a travellers camp.....you would make Jesus come off the cross and fight the Romans and when he had beaten them you'd makehim fight Mary Magdalene and say he was afraid if he didn't.

Come back to me when Pavlik isn't blowing out his arse at 166 against Jermaine Failure.

Hero, I think it is simply a case of Paul having higher standards in boxing than you.
Paul sees what I see in relation to Cal, and average, dedicated, fit and hard working fighter with very poor power and IMO, sloppy technique; who would not ever have been
so successful had he competed against the true champions I mentioned

jayroyal

Well ya'll have to give calzaghe something he gets people talking on this site.:D

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Hero, I think it is simply a case of Paul having higher standards in boxing than you.
Paul sees what I see in relation to Cal, and average, dedicated, fit and hard working fighter with very poor power and IMO, sloppy technique; who would not ever have been
so successful had he competed against the true champions I mentioned

Well maybe but Nunn , McCallum and Toney weren't around in Calzaghe's era and they wouldn't have been so succesful had they been fighting in Hagler, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran's era .

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

Well maybe but Nunn , McCallum and Toney weren't around in Calzaghe's era and they wouldn't have been so succesful had they been fighting in Hagler, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran's era .

Yes, they weren't; which is why I said Cal fought in a weak era, not theirs, just his, which was weak

By the way, a peak Toney competes in any era and IMO, he beats Ray, Duran and Hearns. Duran was a lightweight/welter, Ray was a welter/super welter and Hearns just couldn't hang with a peak Toney; as his chin would have let him down. Hagler-Toney would have been a real hard fight for both. They both had steel chins, but Toney had the better skills and a wicked defense, he could throw the most amazing shots from all angles.

Cal wouldn' see the final bell V Hagler or Toney or Jones, I suspect....

walshb

http://www.rte.ie/sport/boxing/2008/0624/calzaghej.html

Can anyone blame people for not really believing in Cal's potential or legacy.
The guy is now chasing a big money fight with an OLD past it Jones and has basically
ruled out a true test with a young, hard hitting and fresh Pavlik. Surely a bout with Pavlik would be the bigger money earner here, as Pav is a TRUE current champion,
who is number 1
in the world. Beating HOP proved little; just like beating Jones will prove little.

Surely the Pavlik fight will be the bigger seller on PPV?

I know I would buy it; but I wouldn't pay a cent to watch Cal-Jones, it's too little
too late

nacho libre

Hero Of College wrote: »

The guy has 3 worthy fights on his ledger!!!!! 3!! And 2 of them are the same man!!! And the other one had just got beat by his main challenger Abraham!!!

He doesn't have any opponents for me to revise!!!

a 2 man, 2 fight superhero!!

WOOOO-HAYYY!!!!

the same man is the man who beat Hopkins twice! Hopkins had not been defeated in over 10 years till Taylor fought him. is your angle that Hopkins didn't lose? you may have a case for the first fight but he clearly lost the second fight.
Also, it is not in anyway a certainity that Abraham - the guy you are impressed by - would beat him
So therefore this indicates Pavlik must be a decent fighter!

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/sport/boxing/2008/0624/calzaghej.html

Can anyone blame people for not really believing in Cal's potential or legacy.
The guy is now chasing a big money fight with an OLD past it Jones and has basically
ruled out a true test with a young, hard hitting and fresh Pavlik. Surely a bout with Pavlik would be the bigger money earner here, as Pav is a TRUE current champion,
who is number 1
in the world. Beating HOP proved little; just like beating Jones will prove little.

Surely the Pavlik fight will be the bigger seller on PPV?

I know I would buy it; but I wouldn't pay a cent to watch Cal-Jones, it's too little
too late

I agree with your post. I have no interest in watching him fight a spent Jones.
I think he is cheating his fans by taking a fight with a well past it Jones. He also is giving his detractors further ammo by ducking Pavlik. :mad:

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/sport/boxing/2008/0624/calzaghej.html

Can anyone blame people for not really believing in Cal's potential or legacy.
The guy is now chasing a big money fight with an OLD past it Jones and has basically
ruled out a true test with a young, hard hitting and fresh Pavlik. Surely a bout with Pavlik would be the bigger money earner here, as Pav is a TRUE current champion,
who is number 1
in the world. Beating HOP proved little; just like beating Jones will prove little.

Surely the Pavlik fight will be the bigger seller on PPV?

I know I would buy it; but I wouldn't pay a cent to watch Cal-Jones, it's too little
too late

Calzaghe is declining himself , with all the talk of old Hopkins and old ones(both of which are true) it's easy to forget that Calzaghe himself is 36 years old . Now I'd prefer a Pavlik fight but according to a lot the guys on this forum Jones will beat Calzaghe so it appears Jones must be a real test(I'm actually against that theory but majoirty rules) .

Pavlik is the 160 lb champion , Calzaghe is now fighting at 175 lbs . Pavlik has stated that he wants a fight with Calzaghe at 168 lbs , a weight Calzaghe may not want to make anymore .

I think beating Hopkins proved something , Hopkins is a bit of an Archie Moore in that he has preserved his talent into his 40's . Now okay he has declined somewhat but he is no where close to shot and has dismantled Antonio Tarver(who beat IBF champion Clinton Woods handily recently) and beat Winky Wright with ease . I'd actually fancy Hopkins to do a number on Pavlik if they were to fight around 170 lbs .

But I do agree with you that beating Jones proves little(but as I said this forum seems to disagree) , but it does improve something........his bank balance .


As for selling better ppv , here comes the sad bit .
Joe Calzaghe v Mikkel Kessler took the record for the lowest viewing figures ever for a World Championship boxing show on HBO , most people would say this is because it was a bout between 2 fighters who had never fought in the US(Kessler actually did once while a prospect) .

That record was recently broken........by Kelly Pavlik v Gary Lockett , a fight involving a well promoted , well known and supposedly very well liked American fighter . Roy Jones v Feix Trinidad a fight between two shot former superstars garnered over 500,000 ppv buys . That is a huge number for those not familiar with ppv's

and I know for sure Jones v Calzaghe sells much better in the UK than Calzaghe v Pavlik .

joepenguin

Hers's something I have been wondering for a while but never got around to looking into it.
Calzaghe has been criticized for fighting average fighters etc throughout his reign. obvioulsy every fighter deserves his few handy fights but is there anyone on the following lists that Calzaghe avoided in his prime or you think may have been too much for him.


Lists are in chronological order from 1997-present, just a few months before Calzaghes (list includes interim and "regular" title holders)

WBC Super middleweight champions

Robin Reid
Thulani Malinga
Richie Woodhall
Markus Beyer
Glenn Catley
Dingaan Thobela
Dave Hilton
Eric Lucas
Danny Green
Cristian Sanavia
Mikkel Kessler
Joe Calzaghe

WBA Super middleweight Champions

Frankie Liles
Byron Mitchell
Bruno Girard
Sven Ottke
Anthony Mundine
Manny Siaca
Mikkel Kessler
Joe Calzaghe


IBF Super middlweight champions

Charles Brewer
Sven Ottke
Jeff Lacy
Joe Calzaghe
Alejandro Berrio
Lucian Bute

WBO super middleweight champions
Steve Collins
Joe Calzaghe
Mario Veit

World Championship challengers (WBC WBA IBF WBO) / Champions of EBU,IBO etc ... not a full list

Frederic Seillier
Craig Cummings
Vinny Pazienza
Danny Green
Librado Andrade
Sam Soliman
Mads Larsen
Herol Graham
Antoine Byrd
Glen Johnson
Rubin Williams
Danilo Haussler
Brian Magee

eagle eye

I'm fully with Big Ears here.
Nice post there Joepenguin.

It seems to me that some of the people posting here are just Calzaghe haters. He has fought everyone put in his path and the one he always wanted more than anyone else was Jones jnr and now he has his chance.
He is completely right not to fight Pavlik at this stage. In the same way that you will never see Mayweather fight Cotto.
Its just too much of a risk at this stage of his career.

Of course I forgot to mention the guy that Pavlik should fight right now and that is Abraham, but I don't see that fight happening any time soon.

This thing of Pavlik calling out Calzaghe is probably to deflect attention from a realistic opponent like Abraham.

nacho libre

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm fully with Big Ears here.
Nice post there Joepenguin.

It seems to me that some of the people posting here are just Calzaghe haters. He has fought everyone put in his path and the one he always wanted more than anyone else was Jones jnr and now he has his chance.
He is completely right not to fight Pavlik at this stage. In the same way that you will never see Mayweather fight Cotto.
Its just too much of a risk at this stage of his career.

Of course I forgot to mention the guy that Pavlik should fight right now and that is Abraham, but I don't see that fight happening any time soon.

This thing of Pavlik calling out Calzaghe is probably to deflect attention from a realistic opponent like Abraham.

Pavlik will be fighting Abraham in early 2009. The fight would take place sooner but for a mandatory challenge in the Autumn
Pavlik doesn't avoid fighters as you are trying to suggest. The fact of the matter is that Calzaghe is avoiding Pavlik because he wants to preserve his unbeaten record. I don't see it as something to praise that Mayweather is doing the same with Cotto. Mayweather impresses on people that he is the best, if so then fight one the top guy around at the moment rather than sink off into retirement. I admire Hatton because he wants to pit himself against the best around before his boxing career is over. That's what a true champion should do imo.

joepenguin

I think Calzaghe not wanting Pavlik and Mayweather not wanting Cotto have their similarities but are different scenarios.
1 difference is age: calzaghe at 36 is slighlty past his prime while Mayweather at 31 is coming to the end of his prime but still as sharp as ever.

Calzaghe has stated he wants the big names to finish with and you cant argue that the biggest "name" left is Jones. He probably has no interest in Pavlik because he is not that well known, and not mainstream like Roy Jones.

Mayweather only fights for money, this is why the Cotto fight hasnt happened. I reckon if Cotto fights DLH and wins, this will make big enough of a draw(through the golden touch, 24/7 and all that) for Mayweather to "come out of retirement" in 2009 and then retire for real.

RE my previous post, its not a pro-Calzaghe post as such but would like opinions especially from posters who were following boxing from 1997 on.

I am a Calzaghe fan, although I have the same criticisms of him that others have. basically trying to find out if there is anyone during this period in his weight division that he ducked.

cowzerp

joepenguin wrote: »

I am a Calzaghe fan, although I have the same criticisms of him that others have. basically trying to find out if there is anyone during this period in his weight division that he ducked.

I remember that his camp would not let him fight Collin's as they said he was not ready! when Collins was on his way out they wanted the fight.
thats 1 that i can think of, and only cause i felt Collins would of easily beat him.

Fall_Guy

If people are going to argue that Calzaghe has only beaten top fighters when they are past it, could it not be argued that pavlik is chasing someone who has recently acquired a big reputation stateside despite being past his best?

I mean, if anything, calzaghe at 36 is probably further past his peak than hopkins is at 43. Hopkins style doesn't rely on speed and huge workrate like joe's does, and the man (calzaghe) is no spring chicken anymore.

For the record I'm undecided as to how the fight would go if it panned out, but even if joe IS ducking Pavlik in favour of a larger payout and a safer fight I wouldn't begrudge him it comsidering it looks likely to be his last fight. Who wouldn't want a huge payday and a better chance of retiring undefeated?

To be honest, if Jones comes in motivated and with a good training camp behind him, I'm not all too sure if it even IS the easier fight for joe. Even having slowed down a bit, he's still has much faster hands than pavlik, who's style reminds me more of kessler's (who joe managed to get to grips with after a few scary rounds).

Big Ears

nacho libre wrote: »

Pavlik doesn't avoid fighters as you are trying to suggest. The fact of the

Then why isn't he going after Mundine or Winky Wright rather than Sergio Mora/Rubio/John Duddy ?

Big Ears

cowzerp wrote: »

I remember that his camp would not let him fight Collin's as they said he was not ready! when Collins was on his way out they wanted the fight.
thats 1 that i can think of, and only cause i felt Collins would of easily beat him.

When exactly was this because it's the first time I heard it .

What I do know is that Collins retired because he felt he didn't have enough left anymore(he said it was cause he couldn't get a fight with Jones) . Then Collins tried a comeback a little while later and got dropped and knocked out by Howard Eastman in sparring and he wisely retired again(there were no actual fights in the comeback) .

Calzaghe was Collins mandatory and Collins dropped his belt and retired rather than facing him , simply put Collins felt he had gotten too old for a strong young challenger .

cowzerp

Big Ears wrote: »

When exactly was this because it's the first time I heard it .

What I do know is that Collins retired because he felt he didn't have enough left anymore(he said it was cause he couldn't get a fight with Jones) . Then Collins tried a comeback a little while later and got dropped and knocked out by Howard Eastman in sparring and he wisely retired again(there were no actual fights in the comeback) .

Calzaghe was Collins mandatory and Collins dropped his belt and retired rather than facing him , simply put Collins felt he had gotten too old for a strong young challenger .

Bigears without been funny but you would of been about 10, it was in the papers and not a long drawn out thing, it was straight to the point, Joe's not ready, so unless you where reading the herald etc, at 10 then you would not of seen it, most Collins fans would remember it.

nacho libre

Big Ears wrote: »

Then why isn't he going after Mundine or Winky Wright rather than Sergio Mora/Rubio/John Duddy ?

His manager stated he wants to fight Calzaghe but of course Calzaghe won't fight him. Also didn't he say he'll fight Abraham after Mora. I don't see how is he ducking anyone.

eagle eye

cowzerp wrote: »

Bigears without been funny but you would of been about 10, it was in the papers and not a long drawn out thing, it was straight to the point, Joe's not ready, so unless you where reading the herald etc, at 10 then you would not of seen it, most Collins fans would remember it.

From what I remember I think Big Ears is right. Calzaghe was the mandatory fight for Collins when he retired. I don't remember anything about Calzaghe turning down a Collins fight.

menoscemo

eagle eye wrote: »

From what I remember I think Big Ears is right. Calzaghe was the mandatory fight for Collins when he retired. I don't remember anything about Calzaghe turning down a Collins fight.

+1 Calzaghe was a young up and coming fighter 22-0, Collins retired when Calzaghe had just gained no1 contender status and they had to pull Eubank back down from cruiserweight to fight calzaghe.
It can't be suggested that Calzaghe ducked collins it is like saying Andy Lee is ducking Pavlik.

cowzerp

I said they wanted the fight, when Collin's was retiring, they stated earler that he was not ready for Collins, this was seperate times.edit, this was no big deal at the time and not any big news, Calzaghe was hardly known in the mainstream.
Calzaghe fights people who he should beat, simple as.

walshb

Does anyone believe had they fought, that it would have been the sloppiest fight in history:D

Hero Of College

cowzerp wrote: »

I remember that his camp would not let him fight Collin's as they said he was not ready! when Collins was on his way out they wanted the fight.
thats 1 that i can think of, and only cause i felt Collins would of easily beat him.

Dude. You are LOST. Collins PULLED OUT and Eubank fought Calzaghe for the title that Collins vacated. Collins collapsed a while later in sparring and was found to have a shadow on his brain. Joe would have diced him. If Collins couldn't beat Reggie Johnson at 160, then he wasn't beating a bigger faster version of SP Johnson in Calzaghe. Joe would have cut and stopped Steve sharpish.

Hero Of College

nacho libre wrote: »

His manager stated he wants to fight Calzaghe but of course Calzaghe won't fight him. Also didn't he say he'll fight Abraham after Mora. I don't see how is he ducking anyone.

He wants to fight Calzaghe, he is going to fight Abraham, but he IS fighting Mora.

How Many Were Going To Saint Ives? This is a very old rhyming riddle. See if you can answer it by reading and thinking very carefully. As I was going to Saint Ives,
I crossed the path of seven wives.
Every wife had seven sacks,
Every sack had seven cats,
Every cat had seven kittens,
Kittens, cats, sacks, wives,
How many were going to Saint Ives?






Only one person was going to Saint Ives.


Similarly, Kelly is fighting Mora and Mora only.

Big Ears

Hero Of College wrote: »

He wants to fight Calzaghe, he is going to fight Abraham, but he IS fighting Mora.

How Many Were Going To Saint Ives? This is a very old rhyming riddle. See if you can answer it by reading and thinking very carefully. As I was going to Saint Ives,
I crossed the path of seven wives.
Every wife had seven sacks,
Every sack had seven cats,
Every cat had seven kittens,
Kittens, cats, sacks, wives,
How many were going to Saint Ives?






Only one person was going to Saint Ives.


Similarly, Kelly is fighting Mora and Mora only.

Lockett then Mora would be two of the easiest back to back middleweight defenses in a long time . Easier than Ouma then Spinks .

Why can't Pavlik fight Wright before Abraham . That would buildhis name hugely and provide an adequate test .

nacho libre

Hero Of College wrote: »

He wants to fight Calzaghe, he is going to fight Abraham, but he IS fighting Mora.

.

There is nothing he can do if Calzaghe won't take the fight.
No mention of the soft opponents Calzaghe has taken on over the years such as Manfredo and Will McIntyre to name but two. I suppose Abraham has never taken an easy fight either.
Besides Abraham has a mandatory defense against Marquez before he can fight anyone else.
I would prefer if Pavlik was not fighting Mora. Still, he's just doing what others fighters do but since he not one of your favourites you'll single him out for criticism.

Also, unlike Calzaghe, Pavlik has taken on good fighters in their prime. Calzaghe, bar the exception of Kessler, waits until their past it. oh i forgot he's going to fight a prime Roy Jones to prove the naysayers wrong:rolleyes:

Big Ears

nacho libre wrote: »

There is nothing he can do if Calzaghe won't take the fight.
No mention of the soft opponents Calzaghe has taken on over the years such as Manfredo and Will McIntyre to name but two. I suppose Abraham has never taken an easy fight either.
Besides Abraham has a mandatory defense against Marquez before he can fight anyone else.
I would prefer if Pavlik was not fighting Mora. Still, he's just doing what others fighters do but since he not one of your favourites you'll single him out for criticism.

Also, unlike Calzaghe, Pavlik has taken on good fighters in their prime. Calzaghe, bar the exception of Kessler, waits until their past it. oh i forgot he's going to fight a prime Roy Jones to prove the naysayers wrong:rolleyes:

He could fight Wright.........

As pointed out Hopkins wouldn't take the fight while in his prime , and Jones didn't want it either(although I wouldn't really say Jones ducked him there was just not point) .

So what prime Super-Middleweights didn't Calzaghe face that he should have , and the answer better not be a mustached German that got away with more robberies than Dick Turpin .

Cowzerp I presume your claim of Calzaghe's camp came during his British title reign ? , if so around when ?

ODD-JOB

Fall_Guy wrote: »

but even if joe IS ducking Pavlik in favour of a larger payout and a safer fight I wouldn't begrudge him it comsidering it looks likely to be his last fight. Who wouldn't want a huge payday and a better chance of retiring undefeated?

surely a fight against Pavlik is a much bigger event and payout than the RJJ fight.
Nobody wants to see RJJ and Joe,......... its like a rubber exhibition.

That RJJ v Trinidad fight ranks amongst the worstfights this decade imo.

Let the fans see a proper contest of 2 undefeated fighters.

Big Ears

ODD-JOB wrote: »

surely a fight against Pavlik is a much bigger event and payout than the RJJ fight.
Nobody wants to see RJJ and Joe,......... its like a rubber exhibition.

That RJJ v Trinidad fight ranks amongst the worstfights this decade imo.

Let the fans see a proper contest of 2 undefeated fighters.

Better event yes but in terms of money no .
Roy Jones is much better known in the UK than Pavlik , some non-boxing fans actually know who he is while only hardcore boxing fans that follow the American scene know Pavlik .

Pavlik v Lockett drew the lowest ever audience on HBO WCB , you may say that had to do with Lockett being a no name but fighters have to sell shows on their own star quality often enough on WCB and none of them failed to get higher than two European who had no major fights in the US between them .

Ohio knows who Pavlik is, America doesn't . The truth is Jones is not only still a bigger draw in the US and UK but probably around the whole World .

A know a lot of people(non boxing fans) that know Roy Jones, I know very few(only ones I've mentioned him to) that would know Kelly Pavlik .

Now it may be sad that a past it great fighter sells better than a current up and coming fighter but it's the truth .

The reason why Pavlik will fight someone like Mora rather than a real test like Mundine is simply because HBO needs to raise his profile . Mora is very well known in the US due to the contender while Mundine is only known by boxing fans . Also Mora poses not threat to HBO of losing their rising star, Mundine does .

cowzerp

Hero Of College wrote: »

Dude. You are LOST. Collins PULLED OUT and Eubank fought Calzaghe for the title that Collins vacated. Collins collapsed a while later in sparring and was found to have a shadow on his brain.

Are you not reading my comment, i know the fight was going ahead, im talking about well before this, this happened at the end of his career! read proper and dont take 1 part of my message and put it to a different time.

Big Ears wrote: »

He could fight Wright.........
Cowzerp I presume your claim of Calzaghe's camp came during his British title reign ? , if so around when ?

It happened around the time he beat Eubank, i asked a good friend of mine who is great mates with steve collin's if my memory betray's me and he said i was spot on, that the calzaghe camp said he was not ready for Collin's, as i said-this was not big news as Calzaghe was not known in the mainstream, actually he was hardly known in the mainstream till recently.

Big Ears

cowzerp wrote: »

It happened around the time he beat Eubank, i asked a good friend of mine who is great mates with steve collin's if my memory betray's me and he said i was spot on, that the calzaghe camp said he was not ready for Collin's, as i said-this was not big news as Calzaghe was not known in the mainstream, actually he was hardly known in the mainstream till recently.

That doesn't make much sense really as when he beat Eubank it was because Collins retired instead of facing Calzaghe(who was the mandatory challenger), which is not something I'm really criticising Collins of btw . Calzaghe was an unknown back then and Collins knowing he was fading probably did the right thing retiring at that point .

cowzerp

The time collins bet Eubank

Big Ears

cowzerp wrote: »

The time collins bet Eubank

Well at the time of Collins v Eubank I , Calzaghe was 10-0-0 and 22 years old
At the time of Collins Eubak II he was 12-0-0 and 23 years old .

I suspect Calzaghe may not have been ready at that point, however it would be quite odd of Collins' team to be looking for a fight with Calzaghe at that stage .
He was a novice pro who hadn't gone more than 8 rounds . To be put into a World title fight would be insanity .