Get In Here And Show Respect To Amazing Arthur Abraham.

Hero Of College

Nuff said. Steve Dunce can just eat humble pie and admit that this guy is going to ruin the Great White Hip-Hop-Hope, Kelly Pavlik.:pac:

So much for the "GERMAN CABAL"....Arthur came to America and smashed Miranda up every street, having cleverly measured his opponent in the opening rounds.

Interesting side-point....why didn't Miranda throw a single low-blow vs Pavlik??

Will Pavlik run to 168...probably not. Cos Kessler is there waiting for him.

menoscemo

Respect to Abraham, great fight.
That said Miranda looks like a totally shot fighter, either that or he was totally weight drained (looked that way in the weigh in photos) as his punch ressitance is no more.
All the same, Abraham proved he can bang, has proved he has loads of heart and is not afraid to fight anyone. A Pavlik unificatrion fight seems the only viable fight for them both now. Would love to see it, would be tough to call.

cowzerp

He deserves respect but i dont think anyone disrespects him!
also i think Pavlik will go through him if the fight happens, would be interesting though...

Hero Of College

cowzerp wrote: »

He deserves respect but i dont think anyone disrespects him!
also i think Pavlik will go through him if the fight happens, would be interesting though...

We'll see!! Who was the other guy who picked Abraham by KO???

My guess is that the spin coming out of America will be that Pavlik this that and the other and that Pavlik ruined Miranda etc.

Comfortably forgetting that the 12 round slugfest which Abraham indulged Miranda in probably softened him up, physically and otherwise, for Kelly. Roy Jones blew through Virgil Hill but only after Dariusz Michelczweski had softened him up over 12 rounds previously.

The Yanks really are a dispicable lot when it comes to hyping their own lot over others. Abraham is the real deal.

He shows intelligence, handspeed, patience and power. That left hook he took him out with for the 2nd knockdown was savage.

He reminds me a little bit of Carl Johannsonn..he's just so phlegmatic and doleful at times....just covering up and then POW!!

Can't wait to see who he fights next!

cowzerp

Hero Of College wrote: »

We'll see!! Who was the other guy who picked Abraham by KO???

well i did and so did someone else too!
whats that mean??

Hero Of College

cowzerp wrote: »

well i did and so did someone else too!
whats that mean??

2 guys had Arthur to win by KO on this sites poll. You and me, it seems. Well done.:D

Aaron M

You're asking people to respect Arthur Abraham and yet you clearly show disrespect towards Pavlik (with stupid comments like 'Great White Hip-Hop-Hope') - surely it should work both ways? Both fighters have proven themselves. You sound a little biased and immature (no offence) when hyping up your boy Abraham.

Just for the record, I don't for one second believe that Pavlik would be scared to fight Abraham. I'm sure it would be a great fight (while it lasted).

Hero Of College

Aaron M wrote: »

You're asking people to respect Arthur Abraham and yet you clearly show disrespect towards Pavlik (with stupid comments like 'Great White Hip-Hop-Hope') - surely it should work both ways? Both fighters have proven themselves. You sound a little biased and immature (no offence) when hyping up your boy Abraham.

Just for the record, I don't for one second believe that Pavlik would be scared to fight Abraham. I'm sure it would be a great fight (while it lasted).

Not at all matey. I actually was happy to see Pavlik win the title, I thought Jermaine Taylors "reign" at Middlweight was spurious, given the number of non-middlweights the guy has fought in his career, and given the number of spurious/controvversial decisions he got- close win over Spinks, draw with Winky, debatable wins over Hopkins. In short, Taylor was disreputable.

However, the HBO/Steve Dunce hype job that is being done on Pavlik is totally unreal. All this "Rust Belt" nonsense, they're going soooo overboard on the "Blue Collar Hero" thing.

Pavlik gets his ass licked just cos he is an American. The press have been so dismissive of Abraham and INSISTED at one point on calling Pavlik the "Undisputed" champ at 160.

Thats total nonsense. It was Abraham who took on Miranda- as a voluntary defence- and got no credit for it. The Pavlik took him on and got a shot at Jermaine Taylor out of it. Now Abraham travels to the States and beats the guy, beats him at a higher weight and does it even faster than Pavlik and we're still listening to an argument from the yanks- there shouldn't be any.

The silence on the American fight boards after Abraham laid him out was unreal. Unreal. Not a peep out of the bastardos! Steven Dunce hasn't opened his mouth yet either- I guess he's still upset over Elcock getting beaten up in Germany!!

Aaron M

Hero Of College wrote: »

In short, Taylor was disreputable.

Taylor was still the man who beat the man (Hopkins) at Middleweight (regardless of whether you agree with the decision(s) or not).

Hero Of College wrote: »

However, the HBO/Steve Dunce hype job that is being done on Pavlik is totally unreal. All this "Rust Belt" nonsense, they're going soooo overboard on the "Blue Collar Hero" thing.

I agree that the hype is overboard (and I'm a big Pavlik fan). However, I wouldn't pay too much attention to what Steve Bunce says - the guy is basically the Eamonn Dunphy of boxing commentary/analysis. Most of the time all he's looking for is a reaction; and it appears he got one!

Hero Of College wrote: »

Pavlik gets his ass licked just cos he is an American. The press have been so dismissive of Abraham and INSISTED at one point on calling Pavlik the "Undisputed" champ at 160.

Well to be fair, I can understand why (I'm not saying I agree with them - just to be clear). By beating Taylor, Pavlik became the linear Middleweight champ (also holding 2 of the 4 'main' belts at Middleweight). The fact that the first fight between Pavlik & Taylor was undoubtedly one of the fights of the year helped sell the hype even more - not only did Pavlik beat Taylor, he got up off the canvas to knock his ass the f**k out (if you'll excuse the expression )! It's not hard to see why the American press was latching onto Pavlik's name - hint: $$$.

Hero Of College wrote: »

Thats total nonsense. It was Abraham who took on Miranda- as a voluntary defence- and got no credit for it. The Pavlik took him on and got a shot at Jermaine Taylor out of it.

I agree that Abraham deserves credit for the Miranda defence (but as far as I can tell, he got it). I don't know why he didn't get a shot at Taylor himself, so I can't speak on that issue.

Hero Of College wrote: »

The silence on the American fight boards after Abraham laid him out was unreal. Unreal. Not a peep out of the bastardos! Steven Dunce hasn't opened his mouth yet either- I guess he's still upset over Elcock getting beaten up in Germany!!

Well I've only been on a couple of boards but I've seen nothing but positive sentiments towards Abraham's victory. I think a lot of fight fans just haven't seen much of Abraham (especially over in the States) and hence the reserved judgement towards him until they got to see him with their own eyes (so to speak).

I think we can all agree that Pavlik vs. Abraham has to be made - what a prospect that fight would be!

nacho libre

If a guy like Taylor almost took Pavlik out i can see Abraham stopping Pavlik. Then again i think Abraham will find out Pavlik hits harder than Miranda. Pavlik's punches won't be connecting with Abraham's forearms either. It really is a tough one to call who would win it.

Aaron M

I believe that Abraham probably has more explosive one-punch KO power than Pavlik, but Pavlik's punches do more long-term, lasting damage (if that makes sense). He tends to break his opponents down over several rounds.

Pavlik is also a surprisingly accurate puncher - he doesn't seem to waste that many shots.

I think it's an intriguing match-up and the only reason I would favour Pavlik is because I am a big fan of his. I would give Abraham a good chance of winning.

I would say Abraham also has the slightly better chin.

Has Abraham ever been knocked down in his pro-career? We know Pavlik has (several times in fact) but he's always come back to win.

nacho libre

I don't think he has - his chin is made of steel! that said i think the key difference will be Abraham has never faced a guy who hits as hard as Pavlik, and who, as you mentioned, doesn't waste punches, he is eerily accurate. Taylor, who is a great defensive fighter, found the latter out. Unlike Miranda the other night, Pavlik's punches will be landing cleanly on Abraham.
With that in mind if i had to call it i'd say Pavlik will win on points or possibly a late tko.

Hero Of College

nacho libre wrote: »

I don't think he has - his chin is made of steel! that said i think the key difference will be Abraham has never faced a guy who hits as hard as Pavlik, and who, as you mentioned, doesn't waste punches, he is eerily accurate. Taylor, who is a great defensive fighter, found the latter out. Unlike Miranda the other night, Pavlik's punches will be landing cleanly on Abraham.
With that in mind if i had to call it i'd say Pavlik will win on points or possibly a late tko.

Nobody has ever teed off on Abraham. He is bull strong and has a fantastic guard. He is not Gary Lockett. I agree, its a very close fight, but I could never fancy Pavlik for the reasons mentioned by yourself fight. Taylor is NOT a great defensive fighter. Not even close. Since when did Taylor make this transition to having a "great defense"??:eek: The guy has always been easy to hit.

One other thing you are not factoring in is how slllllllooooowwwwww Kelly is. Kelly has to be one of the slowest middlweights out there.

Aaron M

Hero Of College wrote: »

He is not Gary Lockett.

No doubt But to be fair, Pavlik is no Wayne Elcock!

cowzerp

Hero Of College wrote: »

One other thing you are not factoring in is how slllllllooooowwwwww Kelly is. Kelly has to be one of the slowest middlweights out there.

Pavlik is not slow, are you sure you've watched him?
also Taylor is not that easy to hit, Pavlik made him look like that!
I think its a good match up but will be betting on Pavlik for the KO.

Hero Of College

cowzerp wrote: »

Pavlik is not slow, are you sure you've watched him?
also Taylor is not that easy to hit, Pavlik made him look like that!
I think its a good match up but will be betting on Pavlik for the KO.

Pavlik is a plodder. Period. I've seen enough of him to know that he is slow, by anoyones standards. He stays busy and can fight from range so his slowness isn't as obvious as it could be. Abraham is definitley much much quicker.

Secondly......Winky Wright busted Taylors eye shut with his southpaw jab. He never did as much facial damage to Fernando Vargas, and Vargas was never know for his brilliant D. Taylor was no genious when it came to defense and was also nailed pretty often by Cory Spinks.

Don't bet on Pavlik for the KO. You'll lose your money. He might win, but there is NO WAY he is KO'g Abraham.

cowzerp

Hero Of College wrote: »

Pavlik is a plodder. Period.

This is just wrong-and your the 1st person i ever heard saying this and it makes me laugh!

Hero Of College wrote: »

Secondly......Winky Wright busted Taylors eye shut with his southpaw jab. He never did as much facial damage to Fernando Vargas, and Vargas was never know for his brilliant D. Taylor was no genious when it came to defense and was also nailed pretty often by Cory Spinks.

different fights, different damage, and cory spinks is very fast, taylor actually went into that fight with a name of not been hit, and been mayweather like!

Hero Of College

cowzerp wrote: »

This is just wrong-and your the 1st person i ever heard saying this and it makes me laugh!



different fights, different damage, and cory spinks is very fast, taylor actually went into that fight with a name of not been hit, and been mayweather like!

Pavlik is slow of hand and foot and not only have I said it but respected men on the inside have said it too. Its there for all to see. Because he is sooo rangy he doesn't need to be as fast and his slowness isn't as obvious. If you can reach you don't have to move.

However, you watch Abraham, you'll see how he almost leaps out of exchanges from an angle. Now this might allow Kelly to tag him, but if he doesn't, he'll have to follow Abe- and then you will see just how slow he is. I promise you, you'll be shocked.

cowzerp

i,ve boxed most my life and coach boxing and am watching boxing since i was about 4 years old!

i know how landing punches work, speed is not the only ingredient, but you think his feet and hands are slow! so therefore anyone who is rangey will land there punches!! landing punches takes timing, footwork and fast hands at the top level..Pavlik has all these.i'd be interested to see what the regulars here think?

Big Ears

1.When did this placed become like Eastside ?
2.Pavlik is the undisputed Middleweight champion
3.Miranda was a mandatory not a voluntary defense for Abraham , Miranda had won that right by stopping Howard Eastman in an eliminator .
4.Pavlik has quick hands and Taylor is not easy to hit .

Hero Of College

cowzerp wrote: »

i,ve boxed most my life and coach boxing and am watching boxing since i was about 4 years old!

i know how landing punches work, speed is not the only ingredient, but you think his feet and hands are slow! so therefore anyone who is rangey will land there punches!! landing punches takes timing, footwork and fast hands at the top level..Pavlik has all these.i'd be interested to see what the regulars here think?

Pavlik is not fast. End of story. I promise you- every fighter that Pavlik comes up against, at least at this level, will have advantages in speed. What Pavlik does have is a tremendous jab and a great sense of distance. These two tools allow him to dictate the pace, thus masking his speed deficiencies. The length of his jab allows him to generate power and make good on any lack of speed generated.

I never said he landed shots just cos he had long arms. Nigel Collins of Ring Magazine said that once {said Grants arms were longer therefore his jab would land first against Golota:eek::rolleyes::rolleyes:} but I never said it.

Hero Of College

Big Ears wrote: »

1.When did this placed become like Eastside

Dunno. Never read their stuff.

BigEars wrote:

2.Pavlik is the undisputed Middleweight champion

Bullsh!t. I suppose Joe Cal is undisp at 175 too?? Cos he beat Hopkins??

BigEars wrote:

3.Miranda was a mandatory not a voluntary defense for Abraham , Miranda had won that right by stopping Howard Eastman in an eliminator .

Maybe I got that wrong.....but Pavlik certainly fought a leftover.

Bigears wrote:

4.Pavlik has quick hands and Taylor is not easy to hit

Taylor is easy to hit. Always has been. And Pavliks hands are not fast. You've never seen FAST at 160. Roy Jones was FAST. SRL was FAST. The 2 punch hook-right combo that AA unleashed on Miranda was FAST. THATS FAST. Not Kelly with his long, albeit well placed shots. When was the last time Kelly just ripped off a super fast 3 or 4 punch salvo? Never. Its always a long slow 1-2. Just well timed and effective. I guess Vitali Klitschko is fast too. :rolleyes:

ODD-JOB

Pavlik has a high level of standard in all the categories..... speed , skill , power , endurance etc.

The way he dealt with Lockett was similar to the way Cotto beat Alfonso Gomez,......... with absolute ease , a class above the rest !

Ill hope Abraham's team get beaten if they face Pavlik,
2 things i didnt like in that fight was when Anraham was interviewed ... he kissed ass big time saying how great the American people were and their nation.
Grow a set of balls and say what you really think.... he's from Armenia !!!

Secondly , is the contraversy over Alex Abraham (bro) , who went up to Miranda as he was floored and jeered him whilst he was down ,... he then entered the ring after the count and threw a kick a Edison whilst he was on the canvas !!
Absolutely disgraceful , and bad sportsmanship .
Makes my blood boil , one thing I hate is a bully.

So now i got that off my chest , Ill be looking for something else to bicth about.
I'm in rotten form today.... dont know why :mad:

Hero Of College

ODD-JOB wrote: »

Pavlik has a high level of standard in all the categories..... speed , skill , power , endurance etc.

Yes, Kelly has what all good champs have, a little bit of everything. Mike McCallum was the same.

Oddjob wrote:

The way he dealt with Lockett was similar to the way Cotto beat Alfonso Gomez,......... with absolute ease , a class above the rest

Yes, Kelly has had some very smooth un-problematic performances. I thought his dismantling of Lockett was as workmanlike a performance as you could hope for, albeit against another bottler from Enzos camp.

[Qupte=Oddjob]Ill hope Abraham's team get beaten if they face Pavlik[/Quote]

Fine.....

Oddjob wrote:

2 things i didnt like in that fight was when Anraham was interviewed ... he kissed ass big time saying how great the American people were and their nation.
Grow a set of balls and say what you really think.... he's from Armenia !!!

Oddjob wrote:

Secondly , is the contraversy over Alex Abraham (bro) , who went up to Miranda as he was floored and jeered him whilst he was down ,... he then entered the ring after the count and threw a kick a Edison whilst he was on the canvas !!
Absolutely disgraceful , and bad sportsmanship .
Makes my blood boil , one thing I hate is a bully.

Well.......then you mustn't be a big Miranda fan then. Alex Arthur is no good, and has a conviction for knife offences, but Arthur is not responsible for him, and if he did come in the ring BEFORE the fight ended then Arthur could have been DQ'd. I think you have the order of the misbehaviour mixed up.

Oddjob wrote:

So now i got that off my chest , Ill be looking for something else to bicth about.
I'm in rotten form today.... dont know why :mad:

Its the muggy weather.

Big Ears

Hero Of College wrote: »

Dunno. Never read their stuff.




Bullsh!t. I suppose Joe Cal is undisp at 175 too?? Cos he beat Hopkins??



Maybe I got that wrong.....but Pavlik certainly fought a leftover.



Taylor is easy to hit. Always has been. And Pavliks hands are not fast. You've never seen FAST at 160. Roy Jones was FAST. SRL was FAST. The 2 punch hook-right combo that AA unleashed on Miranda was FAST. THATS FAST. Not Kelly with his long, albeit well placed shots. When was the last time Kelly just ripped off a super fast 3 or 4 punch salvo? Never. Its always a long slow 1-2. Just well timed and effective. I guess Vitali Klitschko is fast too. :rolleyes:

Nope Calzaghe isn't undisputed at 175 , because in truth believe it or not Zsolt Erdei is the true Light-Heavyweight champion .

In 1996 Virgil Hill and Henry Maske , the #1 andd #2 in the Light-Heavyweight division fought for the WBA/IBF bauble titles but more importantly to decide a true Light-Heavyweight champion . Hill beat Maske by split decision .

Hill then fought WBO bauble champion Dariusz Michalczewski , for the WBA/IBF and lineal/true Light-Heavyweight title . Michalczewski won by unanimous decision . Michaelczewski was stripped of the WBA and IBF titles as he continued to defend his WBO title , however dropping meaningless titles does not prevent someone from still being champ .

2003 Michaelczewski loses his title to Julio Gonzalez by split decision .
Zsolt Erdei defeats Gonzalez to win the WBO title and become true Light-Heavyweight champion , however he is recognized by almost no one as the Americans portray Roy Jones as champion .

Ring magazine have a policy of giving belts to fighters when the #1 and #2 meet in a division to decide the best(and on rare occasions the #1 and #3) .
However this policy of giving belts was inactive at the time of Michalczewski's win over Hill . By the time Jones moved up to light-heavyweight this practice was back in place . They awarded their belt to Jones before his fight with Glen Kelly as he held the WBC/WBA/IBF baubles and was therefore in their eyes the real champion , despite the fact that a true lineage to the title had already been created and therefore a new one cannot be created till the last one is broken .

Therefore Roy Jones despite being the best Light-Heavyweight in the World was not actually the true Light-Heavyweight champion, neither was Tarver, or Johnson or Hopkins and neither Calzaghe now .

Due to Erdei's insanely weak opposition, and I mean insanely weak to an almost criminally true level I just consider the Light-Heavyweight title vacant at the moment really . Erdei will retire before he is beaten and that will be the end of that lineage anyway so I'm just waiting for that and then when the #1 and #2 light-heavyweights in the division meet again we will have another Light-Heavyweight champion .

Pavlik didn't fight a leftover , Pavlik fought a very good Edison Miranda . As did Abraham twice . If Roy Jones and SRL is fast then what is very fast ?......Pavlik has quick hands and I'd really like to know what top analysts have said Pavlik is a plodder(as you've claimed they have) .

Vitali Klitschko had alright handspeed ya , he wasn't slow by any means .

Big Ears

Hero Of College wrote: »

Well.......then you mustn't be a big Miranda fan then. Alex Arthur is no good, and has a conviction for knife offences, but Arthur is not responsible for him, and if he did come in the ring BEFORE the fight ended then Arthur could have been DQ'd. I think you have the order of the misbehaviour mixed up.

and I think you have the names mixed up , you mean Alex Abraham not WBO Super Featherweight champion Alex Arthur :eek: , don't drag the poor Scot into this .

Hero Of College

Big Ears wrote: »

and I think you have the names mixed up , you mean Alex Abraham not WBO Super Featherweight champion Alex Arthur :eek: , don't drag the poor Scot into this .

Well spotted.

Just had a phone call from Mick Gomez, he says Alex Arthur is no fukcing good either

Damn its confusing. Alex and Arthur, and Alex Arthur.

PS...I see your point on the 175lb issue of "undisp"....but I would argue, and I am sure you would accept, that Zsolt Erdei is about as Undisputed at 175 as I am.

I just think that there is a genuine dispute as to who the man is at 160, and the Americans have NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER introducing Pavlik to the audience as the "Undisp MW Champ".

Big Ears

Hero Of College wrote: »

Well spotted.

Just had a phone call from Mick Gomez, he says Alex Arthur is no fukcing good either

Damn its confusing. Alex and Arthur, and Alex Arthur.

PS...I see your point on the 175lb issue of "undisp"....but I would argue, and I am sure you would accept, that Zsolt Erdei is about as Undisputed at 175 as I am.

I just think that there is a genuine dispute as to who the man is at 160, and the Americans have NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER introducing Pavlik to the audience as the "Undisp MW Champ".

I agree Erdei obviously isn't undisputed , but technically he's the man who beat the man . The problem is another champ was introduced at another point and then the two men with claims to the title never fought .

There is no dispute at 160 . Pavlik beat Taylor who beat Hopkins who was recognized by everyone as the single true undisputed Middleweight champion . Arthur Abraham has merely established himself as the #1 contender .

I don't think much of these WBC/WBA/WBO/IBF/IBO titles , I feel they are really only an indication of where a fighter is at then making them a champion . If there is no true champion in a division then holding one of those belts just makes you one of many claimants to the title . Even back in the old days there used to be lots of fighter with 'claims' as World champion , the only difference is nowdays they've a nicy shiny belt to go with it(infact even that bit was often around back to the bare knuckle days) .

Holding a belt when there is a real champion(eg Pavlik at 160 , Calzaghe at 168 , Hatton at 140 etc) just makes you a contender to their title . There is no dispute that they are still the real champion and hence are the undisputed champion . I mean what did Arthur Abraham achieve by beating Kingsley Ikeke other than beating a decent opponent ?.....he got a flashy piece of metal and leather around his waste but that doesn't make him a champion . His performances sine have established him above all the other contenders in the division but let there be no mistake , he is not the middleweight champion and does not have a claim to that middleweight title till he defeats Pavlik .

Hero Of College

Personally I don't place too much value on the belts either. My argument is not so much with you, but with the wooly and vaguely defined criteria which are applied in determining and awarding "Undisputed" status.

Taylors title was, IMHO, ill-gotten, a lot of people feel he never really beat Hopkins. Thats a bone of contention for openers. Then, did that guy even fight one single genuine middlweight until Pavlik? Thats another bone. How UNDISP can a man be at 160 when he MIGHT have beat the man at 160 and then he fought 154lbrs like Winky, Spinks, Ouma. And drew with Winky. Add into the factor that he let belts go, and you have a real case for him not carrying into the Pavlik fight the same title Hopkins carried into the 1st Taylor fight.

The title splintered, it splintered because Taylor wouldn't meet his obligations. The title was unified in the first place because obligations were met. Holmes fought Hopkins, Joppy fought Trinidad, Hopkins beat Trinidad and met his mandatories. If those obligations are not subsequently met again, then the title must splinter, and like it or not an element of dispute must creep into the equation.

That dispute is augmented by the fact that Abraham beat Miranda first, then beat him again at a higher weight.

If your logic is correct, then surely Wladimir Klitschko is undisputed at HW seeing as he beat Ibragimov who beat Briggs who beat Lyakhovich etc. But no, Klitschko isn't introduced at 200+ as the "Undisp Champ", {and correctly so, IMHO} instead the yanks spin us some auld tale about the "mess" 200+ is in.

But 160, which is in much the same state, has an "Undisp" Champ. Go figure.:rolleyes: Listen to Jim Lampleys commentary when Rahman KO'd Lewis. He didn't say that "Lewis just got KTFO by a Bum and that everything is now a mess"...he said "We Got A Brand New Champ, And He's From The USA". The priorities change, and the word according to HBO is not gospel.

I really think, no....I know that the Americans would be calling 160 " a mess" just like they do Heavyweight if it weren't for the fact that Kelly Pavlik is American. Pavlik, ironically, is as vulnerable as Klitschko is. He's American, and comes from the same place as Ray Mancini, so according to HBO, its all good. Economic downturn, Rust belt, All-American-Hero and all that sh!te. HBO agenda.

If Kelly Pavlik was German, then they wouldn't say squat about him being Undisputed.:mad:

This is a figment of American propaganda, just as is their "The Heavyweight Division Is Soooooo Poor Right Now Etc" routine.........

Big Ears

Hero Of College wrote: »

Personally I don't place too much value on the belts either. My argument is not so much with you, but with the wooly and vaguely defined criteria which are applied in determining and awarding "Undisputed" status.

Taylors title was, IMHO, ill-gotten, a lot of people feel he never really beat Hopkins. Thats a bone of contention for openers. Then, did that guy even fight one single genuine middlweight until Pavlik? Thats another bone. How UNDISP can a man be at 160 when he MIGHT have beat the man at 160 and then he fought 154lbrs like Winky, Spinks, Ouma. And drew with Winky. Add into the factor that he let belts go, and you have a real case for him not carrying into the Pavlik fight the same title Hopkins carried into the 1st Taylor fight.

The title splintered, it splintered because Taylor wouldn't meet his obligations. The title was unified in the first place because obligations were met. Holmes fought Hopkins, Joppy fought Trinidad, Hopkins beat Trinidad and met his mandatories. If those obligations are not subsequently met again, then the title must splinter, and like it or not an element of dispute must creep into the equation.

That dispute is augmented by the fact that Abraham beat Miranda first, then beat him again at a higher weight.

If your logic is correct, then surely Wladimir Klitschko is undisputed at HW seeing as he beat Ibragimov who beat Briggs who beat Lyakhovich etc. But no, Klitschko isn't introduced at 200+ as the "Undisp Champ", {and correctly so, IMHO} instead the yanks spin us some auld tale about the "mess" 200+ is in.

But 160, which is in much the same state, has an "Undisp" Champ. Go figure.:rolleyes: Listen to Jim Lampleys commentary when Rahman KO'd Lewis. He didn't say that "Lewis just got KTFO by a Bum and that everything is now a mess"...he said "We Got A Brand New Champ, And He's From The USA". The priorities change, and the word according to HBO is not gospel.

I really think, no....I know that the Americans would be calling 160 " a mess" just like they do Heavyweight if it weren't for the fact that Kelly Pavlik is American. Pavlik, ironically, is as vulnerable as Klitschko is. He's American, and comes from the same place as Ray Mancini, so according to HBO, its all good. Economic downturn, Rust belt, All-American-Hero and all that sh!te. HBO agenda.

If Kelly Pavlik was German, then they wouldn't say squat about him being Undisputed.:mad:

This is a figment of American propaganda, just as is their "The Heavyweight Division Is Soooooo Poor Right Now Etc" routine.........

Taylor was stripped of the IBF(the belt Abraham won) belt for rematching Hopkins . Now considering the first Hopkins v Taylor fight was so close and controversial that was the only natural thing to do . I personally had both Hopkins v Taylor fights a draw but that's irrelevant really as they were close bouts and thus the winner deserved their status as the undisputed Middleweight champion .

The baubles don't matter , hence the IBF belt being stripped is no more signigicant than Jim Rock being IBC champion that the time . They're both just pieces of metal which help to sell a bout to tv networks and people but mean nothing . The WBA title was stripped off Taylor for facing his #1 contender the man recognised by everyone at the time as the best opponent possible Winky Wright . Wright could no longer make 154 so he wasn't really a 154 lber anymore and his schooling of Trinidad and win over the awkward Sam Soliman had been at that weight .

Maselino Masoe was the WBA 'regular' champion at the time , and this was during Taylor's reign . I'm not sure if you're familiar with the WBA's ridiculous 'Super Champion'/'Regular champion' idea but basically the belt Masoe had and the belt Sturm won off Masoe was not the one Taylor was stripped off .
Taylor was stripped of his WBA Super Champion title for not facing the WBA regular champion . There was no need for a vacant title fight as there was already a regular champion in Masoe so really Taylor lost a belt and no one gained a belt .

Masoe had no real claim when Taylor had the WBC/WBA Super Champion/IBF/WBC titles and he was WBA regular champion . So why should Sturm have more of a claim for beating Masoe after Taylor was stripped if he wasn't even fighting for Taylor's belt .

There's no dispute for me . On the 10th of December 2005 Arthur Abraham won a bout against Kingsley Ikeke by 5th round stoppage . Someone presented him with a shiny bauble .

On the 29th of September 2007 Kelly Pavlik knocked out Jermain Taylor to become the Middleweight Champion of the World .

There is no comparison to heavyweight . Now I agree the US can see things through red,white and blue tinted glasses(as shown by The Ring Roy Jones ,Michalczewski incident) but heavyweight is totally different and although not quite a mess anymore it was a mess a little while ago .

Wlad beat Ibragimov who beat Briggs who beat Lyakhovich who beat Brewster who won the vacant WBO bauble off Wladamir Klitschko . Only one problem , neither of them were ranked #1 or #2 by anyone other than the WBO .

Now Wlad does have a much stronger claim to the Heavyweight title than anyone else . He beat the man who was regarded as #1 by about 50% of people at the time in Chris Byrd , but Wlad himself wasn't ranked 2nd or even 3rd so it wasn't really for the true title . Brewster was the other man at the time who people fancied as either #1 or #2 .

Wlad has beaten a lot of top 10 fighters since his last defeat in Samuel Peter, Chris Byrd, Calvin Brock, lamon Brewster and Sultan Ibragimov . He also had wins against DaVarryl Williamson and Ray Austin(who was coming off a draw against the top 10 Ibragimov) . He has ended the claims to the heavyweight title of both Byrd and Ibragimov and holds a win over won of the two other men with a claim . I personally rank him as the man with the best claim to the throne but not the real heavyweight champion . However I've no problem with anyone who sees him as champion .

Personally I feel all Wlad has to do is beat Chagaev(who I rank as #2 and have since he beat Valuev) and he'll be champ for me . But should Chagaev lose then and Wlad continue beating top 10 guys(such as Povetkin as Thompson isn't actually good enough to be top 10) then I'd probably see him as champion .
The Ring's #2 ranking of Peter isn't one I agree with and has forced themselves into the silly situation of not being able to crown a champion till a Wlad v Peter rematch . Well unless they want to make an exception(eg Vitali v Sanders) .

raven136

are people here boxing fans or just fans or certain people.This is turning into a liverpool/united or leinster/munster forum.

cowzerp

Im a boxing fan and a fan of certain boxers, that makes it more interesting for me having someone to root for...what wrong with that?
that does not mean i dont love watching fights of lads i dont normally support!

raven136

thats perfectly fine just this forum is turning into a my guy is better than yours bitchfest.

menoscemo

In Fairness the Boxing forum has been a lot busier since Hero came on. Even though his thoughts may be brash, he has provoked a lot of conversation which can only be good for this forum.

Hero Of College

Big Ears wrote: »

Taylor was stripped of the IBF(the belt Abraham won) belt for rematching Hopkins . Now considering the first Hopkins v Taylor fight was so close and controversial that was the only natural thing to do . I personally had both Hopkins v Taylor fights a draw but that's irrelevant really as they were close bouts and thus the winner deserved their status as the undisputed Middleweight champion .

The baubles don't matter , hence the IBF belt being stripped is no more signigicant than Jim Rock being IBC champion that the time . They're both just pieces of metal which help to sell a bout to tv networks and people but mean nothing . The WBA title was stripped off Taylor for facing his #1 contender the man recognised by everyone at the time as the best opponent possible Winky Wright . Wright could no longer make 154 so he wasn't really a 154 lber anymore and his schooling of Trinidad and win over the awkward Sam Soliman had been at that weight .

Maselino Masoe was the WBA 'regular' champion at the time , and this was during Taylor's reign . I'm not sure if you're familiar with the WBA's ridiculous 'Super Champion'/'Regular champion' idea but basically the belt Masoe had and the belt Sturm won off Masoe was not the one Taylor was stripped off .
Taylor was stripped of his WBA Super Champion title for not facing the WBA regular champion . There was no need for a vacant title fight as there was already a regular champion in Masoe so really Taylor lost a belt and no one gained a belt .

Masoe had no real claim when Taylor had the WBC/WBA Super Champion/IBF/WBC titles and he was WBA regular champion . So why should Sturm have more of a claim for beating Masoe after Taylor was stripped if he wasn't even fighting for Taylor's belt .

There's no dispute for me . On the 10th of December 2005 Arthur Abraham won a bout against Kingsley Ikeke by 5th round stoppage . Someone presented him with a shiny bauble .

On the 29th of September 2007 Kelly Pavlik knocked out Jermain Taylor to become the Middleweight Champion of the World .

There is no comparison to heavyweight . Now I agree the US can see things through red,white and blue tinted glasses(as shown by The Ring Roy Jones ,Michalczewski incident) but heavyweight is totally different and although not quite a mess anymore it was a mess a little while ago .

Wlad beat Ibragimov who beat Briggs who beat Lyakhovich who beat Brewster who won the vacant WBO bauble off Wladamir Klitschko . Only one problem , neither of them were ranked #1 or #2 by anyone other than the WBO .

Now Wlad does have a much stronger claim to the Heavyweight title than anyone else . He beat the man who was regarded as #1 by about 50% of people at the time in Chris Byrd , but Wlad himself wasn't ranked 2nd or even 3rd so it wasn't really for the true title . Brewster was the other man at the time who people fancied as either #1 or #2 .

Wlad has beaten a lot of top 10 fighters since his last defeat in Samuel Peter, Chris Byrd, Calvin Brock, lamon Brewster and Sultan Ibragimov . He also had wins against DaVarryl Williamson and Ray Austin(who was coming off a draw against the top 10 Ibragimov) . He has ended the claims to the heavyweight title of both Byrd and Ibragimov and holds a win over won of the two other men with a claim . I personally rank him as the man with the best claim to the throne but not the real heavyweight champion . However I've no problem with anyone who sees him as champion .

Personally I feel all Wlad has to do is beat Chagaev(who I rank as #2 and have since he beat Valuev) and he'll be champ for me . But should Chagaev lose then and Wlad continue beating top 10 guys(such as Povetkin as Thompson isn't actually good enough to be top 10) then I'd probably see him as champion .
The Ring's #2 ranking of Peter isn't one I agree with and has forced themselves into the silly situation of not being able to crown a champion till a Wlad v Peter rematch . Well unless they want to make an exception(eg Vitali v Sanders) .

Just to digress, how anybody could read your posts and my posts and argue that this forum is turning into a "your guy vs my guy" thread is beyond me. I think we've both raised/dealt with several issues in a lot of detail.

I like your point about the stripping of Taylor by the IBF to suit their agenda, but it does underline the disputed nature of their first fight. The Shenannaigans of Lou Di Bella, a noted ex-HBO hardnose, cannot be overlooked here.

Either ways, I think Taylors "reign" at 160 was a torrid, patchy disjointed affair from day 1.

Ring magazine now being owned by GBP means their opinion, as worthless as it was, is now worth even less. For what its worth, I would like to see Wlad fight Chagaev and Peters again, if he wins both, he's #1 as far as I am concerned, and Undisputed, but David Haye will have beaten TBA by then and so they'll parlay that into a dispute.

Even if he beats Chagaev alone, he'll be Undisp IMHO- but they'll then point at Peter and his WBC title.

Bottom line is if Wlad Klitschko was called Willy Kelly he'd be Undisp right now.

eagle eye

I think Abraham has a lot to offer and I would like to see him and Pavlik get it on. I don't see it happening though for quite a while. They will build this one up if they can over a couple of years in an effort to get a huge payday for both camps.
On a side not, I still think that the heavyweight division is a shambles. The fact that Klitshcko is still at the top is enough for me. I don't rate him at all, losing to Brewster and Sanders is just not good enough. Thats why Lennox Lewis will never be a legend in my eyes either. And Lewis was in a different league to this guy.
He is only on top because there are no good fighters at heavyweight. In fairness the heavyweight division has been in decline for a long time but even when Lewis was on top, at least there were a couple of semi decent fighters around.

ODD-JOB

Pavlik will fight Sergio Mora in Sept As I hear it.

Mora's a light middle if I remember right, so it should be a very one sided affair.
its not like pavlik to fight easy matches ,........ he did it the hard way from scratch...... I hope its not true .

cowzerp

Look all fighters deserve tune up or conditioning fights, especially after tough fights, but Calzaghe is in his last few fights and has the chance to fight the best and prove he's the best, but he wont take it as he knows he'll lose to any of the top fighters at or around his weight division.

Then people will be sad that they never saw him tested by any of the true world level fighters in there prime, Here is his record, hardly great names-and the ones that where someone where past it. check below.

He still has a chance to prove to me that he is the real deal, if he beats 1 or 2 top opponents, Pavlik 1, and maybe Abraham both middleweights-the light heavys are quite poor and the super middles are too bar maybe Froch and kessler but there records are against chumps of the division so maybe not as good as they look.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=5364&cat=boxer

Big Ears

eagle eye wrote: »

I think Abraham has a lot to offer and I would like to see him and Pavlik get it on. I don't see it happening though for quite a while. They will build this one up if they can over a couple of years in an effort to get a huge payday for both camps.
On a side not, I still think that the heavyweight division is a shambles. The fact that Klitshcko is still at the top is enough for me. I don't rate him at all, losing to Brewster and Sanders is just not good enough. Thats why Lennox Lewis will never be a legend in my eyes either. And Lewis was in a different league to this guy.
He is only on top because there are no good fighters at heavyweight. In fairness the heavyweight division has been in decline for a long time but even when Lewis was on top, at least there were a couple of semi decent fighters around.

Lewis fought in the second strongest Heavyweight era ever(after Ali/Foreman/Frazier/Norton era) and avenged both of his defeats .

Ali very well could of lost to Henry ****ing Cooper if not for the shenanigans with ripping the glove in the corner . Cooper isn't at the level of either Rahman or McCall but it doesn't taint Ali's record because he proved in the rest of his bouts what a good fighter he is(as did Lewis) .

Bowe, Holyfield, Tyson, Golota......yep semi-decent fighters indeed .


Idon't think Calzaghe belives he'll lose , most top fighter that have never been beaten don't think they'll lose whether they are cautious of another fighter or not .

If Calzaghe was to beat either Pavlik or Abrham at 175 people would say it meant nothing , as neither is anywhere near proven at the weight . Both have only had one fight at 166(and that's 2 lbs less than Super-Middleweight and a full 9 lbs less than Light-Heavyweight) and although I think Pavlik and Abraham are good fighter they are not that established .

Pavlik has beaten Taylor and Miranda
Abraham has beaten Miranda(twice) , you can through in Eastman if you want but John Duddy only did a slightly worse job on Eastman than Abraham did .

Up at 175 I reckon Kessler, Mundine, Dawson, Tarver and Johnson would be better opponents . Now 168 would be a different story but Abraham would be a tiny Light-heavyweight .


Kessler has beaten Siaca, Mundine, Lucas, Beyer and Andrade . He has a far better record than Abraham and has proven himself at 168 .

Calzaghe would get zero credit for beating Abraham .


Btw is it just me or does anyone else feel that if Abraham had beaten Miranda the same way except in Germany and not on Showtime that he wouldn't be getting the plaudits as a killer that he is suddenly receiving .

Pavlik is rumoured to be facing Sergio Mora/Marco Antonio Rubio/John Duddy in his next fight . That's less of a challenge than Jones is to Calzaghe .
Why doesn't Pavlik look to fight Mundine or Winky Wright ?

eagle eye

cowzerp wrote: »

Look all fighters deserve tune up or conditioning fights, especially after tough fights, but Calzaghe is in his last few fights and has the chance to fight the best and prove he's the best, but he wont take it as he knows he'll lose to any of the top fighters at or around his weight division.

I don't agree at all. I think as Big Ears mentions that beating any of these guys will do nothing for his reputation.
And as I keep saying, he has always wanted Roy Jones jnr and I'd imagine that seems to Joe Calzaghe as the perfect way to end his career.

cowzerp

Big Ears wrote: »

Lewis fought in the second strongest Heavyweight era ever(after Ali/Foreman/Frazier/Norton era) and avenged both of his defeats

Here are the Ring Top 10 heavyweights of the 90s rankings: 1. Holyfield 2. Bowe 3. Lewis 4. Tyson 5. Foreman 6. Moorer 7. Douglas 8. Golota 9. Mercer 10. McCall.

(in the 90s out of all these he fought Holyfield 1st on this list 1 win 1 draw, Golota 9th 1 win, mccall 10th 1 win and loss,.Hardly fighting the best of his era like Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Norton did!

before this he was beating glass jaw bruno after been bashed for most of the fight! and the likes of Glen mcrory, tyrell biggs, and a worthy opponent tony tucker, i feel he came along when the strong era of the nineties was dying! Tyson and Holyfield, where all on the wain and Bowe was great early nineties!

in the noughties he beat a washed up Tyson and beat Klitscho-was been well beaten and won on cuts!

The point been he did not really belong to a strong era Holyfield and Tyson did..when the division was real strong Lewis was unheard of at pro level!

In contrast,

Holyfield beat Bowe 1 and lost 2, Foreman, Tyson twice, Moorer 1 win and 1 loss, Lewis 1 Draw and 1 loss both debatable!, Mercer 1 time. all in the 90's top 10. and he was past it before he fought Tyson, had been banned due to heart problems!

eagle eye

cowzerp wrote: »

Here are the Ring Top 10 heavyweights of the 90s rankings: 1. Holyfield 2. Bowe 3. Lewis 4. Tyson 5. Foreman 6. Moorer 7. Douglas 8. Golota 9. Mercer 10. McCall.

(in the 90s out of all these he fought Holyfield 1st on this list 1 win 1 draw, Golota 9th 1 win, mccall 10th 1 win and loss,.Hardly fighting the best of his era like Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Norton did!

before this he was beating glass jaw bruno after been bashed for most of the fight! and the likes of Glen mcrory, tyrell biggs, and a worthy opponent tony tucker, i feel he came along when the strong era of the nineties was dying! Tyson and Holyfield, where all on the wain and Bowe was great early nineties!

in the noughties he beat a washed up Tyson and beat Klitscho-was been well beaten and won on cuts!

The point been he did not really belong to a strong era Holyfield and Tyson did..when the division was real strong Lewis was unheard of at pro level!

In contrast,

Holyfield beat Bowe 1 and lost 2, Foreman, Tyson twice, Moorer 1 win and 1 loss, Lewis 1 Draw and 1 loss both debatable!, Mercer 1 time. all in the 90's top 10. and he was past it before he fought Tyson, had been banned due to heart problems!

Well in fairness to Lewis, Bowe dodged him, remember that throwing the belt in the trash incident. It was a close fight with Vitaly but I don't think he was losing. My problem is that he lost to two average heavyweights and that just takes the shine away for me.
There is no way he would have beat Tyson in his prime. And the Golota fight was a complete joke, he arrived late for the fight and then just stood there in the ring and let himself get ko'd quickly. Of course there was a lot of rubbish going on then, with McCall coming into the ring crying and quitting and then you had that other english twit who got disqualified for holding. There was a lot of weird stuff went on, oh and yeah that parachutist in the bowe holyfield fight.

cowzerp

ODD-JOB wrote: »

Pavlik will fight Sergio Mora in Sept As I hear it.

Mora's a light middle if I remember right, so it should be a very one sided affair.
its not like pavlik to fight easy matches ,........ he did it the hard way from scratch...... I hope its not true .

Most of Mora's fights where at 160, he's also fought at 162 and is unbeaten with 1 draw, the main thing here though is he is not going to knock anyone out! thats why Kelly should win easy enough...
he's beat vernon forest and peter manfredo jr.

so its not as bad as it is been made out..he won the contender at light middle i think!

Hero Of College

cowzerp wrote: »

Most of Mora's fights where at 160, he's also fought at 162 and is unbeaten with 1 draw, the main thing here though is he is not going to knock anyone out! thats why Kelly should win easy enough...
he's beat vernon forest and peter manfredo jr.

so its not as bad as it is been made out..he won the contender at light middle i think!

Mate, you are taking the mick. You give about Calzaghe, then you commend Smelly Kelly, who is fighting the likes of Mora, Lockett. These are Jermaine Taylor type opponents.

Big Ears

cowzerp wrote: »

Most of Mora's fights where at 160, he's also fought at 162 and is unbeaten with 1 draw, the main thing here though is he is not going to knock anyone out! thats why Kelly should win easy enough...
he's beat vernon forest and peter manfredo jr.

so its not as bad as it is been made out..he won the contender at light middle i think!

You do know Manfredo was robbed in the second Mora fight right ?
Mora also drew with Elvin Ayala who Abraham was beating with ease before knocking him cold(with a forearm) .

So he won a narrow contest against a 37 year old Forrest . Forrest needed a gift to beat(a 37 year old) Ike Quartey who had come out of retirement . He then beat Baldomir and Piccirillio .

Mora is a natural Light-Middleweight and not even a top 5 Light-Middleweight for me . He carries very little power and yet he is meant to be a challenge to Pavlik . Pavlik will fight Mora because he's a name who can make money and pose no threat .

Mundine and Wright would be serious tests .

Aaron M

Hero Of College wrote: »

Mate, you are taking the mick. You give about Calzaghe, then you commend Smelly Kelly, who is fighting the likes of Mora, Lockett. These are Jermaine Taylor type opponents.

Why all the Jermaine Taylor hate? He's still a better fighter than anyone Abraham has beaten.

You'd swear Abraham was fighting nothing but world-class opponents himself in every fight.

I don't agree with Pavlik fighting Sergio Mora (waste of time). Has that fight actually been confirmed yet or is it just speculation?

Big Ears

Aaron M wrote: »

Why all the Jermaine Taylor hate? He's still a better fighter than anyone Abraham has beaten.

You'd swear Abraham was fighting nothing but world-class opponents himself in every fight.

I don't agree with Pavlik fighting Sergio Mora (waste of time). Has that fight actually been confirmed yet or is it just speculation?

The Mora fight is speculation , the most strongly linked opponent(as mentioned by Pavlik's promoter Bob Arum) is Marco Antonio Rubio .

Rubio is a former Light-Middleweight chinny-banger . Rubio is probably even worse than Mora . IMHO Duddy is as good a challenger as either of those guys(probably why he's still being mentioned for the slot) .

Hero Of College

Aaron M wrote: »

Why all the Jermaine Taylor hate? He's still a better fighter than anyone Abraham has beaten.

I don't hate Jermaine Taylor. I just know that his "wins" over Hopkins were shaky as you like and that he then went on a spree of uninspiring title defenses against 154lb opposition.

Aaron M wrote:

You'd swear Abraham was fighting nothing but world-class opponents himself in every fight.

Abrahams opposition has been largely better than that of Kelly Pavlik. Pavlik harps on about the Taylor fights but Taylor was a timewaster to begin with. In Abrahams 13th fight, he fought Nader Hamdan- and knocked him out in the 12th round. Hamdan was 36-1-0 going into the fight. Hamdans last fight was against Anthony Mundine, at 168, and he dropped a decision over 12. Mundine was 30-3-0 at the time of that fight.

In his 17th fight, he beat Howard Eastman.

By comparison, Smelly Kelly was fighting somebody called Robert Dasoyan in his 13th fight. Dasoyan had a record of 11-6-5:rolleyes:. In Pavliks 17th fight, he took on the totally awesome Eduardo Gutierrez who was 31-13-2.:eek:. You have to wait until 2004 and his 24th fight before you find a familiar name on his rep, that of Ross Thompson, a former 154lbr that Fernando Vargas stopped inside the distance. Pavlik got taken the distance- the full 8 rounds. In his 24th fight. Christ, Even Amir Khan is onto 12 rounders by now.

Guys like Zuniga, McKart and Zertuche were all former 154lbrs.

Of course, Abraham has a few skeletons in his own closet, but his opposition has been largely superior and he has been fighting scheduled 12 rounders from an earlier date against VASTLY superior opposition.

He has two wins over Miranda, and has stopped Miranda at the higher weight. He fought Miranda before Pavlik did. He fought Miranda in his 23rd or 24th fight- Thompson territory for Pavlik.

Putting it all in context, Kelly it seems is going to fight a guy who LOST by 1 round KO to a guy Abraham has already beat- namely Kofi Jantuah.

Aaron M wrote:

I don't agree with Pavlik fighting Sergio Mora (waste of time). Has that fight actually been confirmed yet or is it just speculation?

Even worse, its RUBIO!!

Hero Of College

Big Ears wrote: »

I don't think Calzaghe belives he'll lose , most top fighter that have never been beaten don't think they'll lose whether they are cautious of another fighter or not

Yup- I am sure defeat does not enter the mind of the best champs. They all have to lose, eventually, but they never entertain the prospect of it.

BigEars wrote:

If Calzaghe was to beat either Pavlik or Abrham at 175 people would say it meant nothing , as neither is anywhere near proven at the weight . Both have only had one fight at 166(and that's 2 lbs less than Super-Middleweight and a full 9 lbs less than Light-Heavyweight) and although I think Pavlik and Abraham are good fighter they are not that established

Calzaghe could smack the sh!te out of King Kong and Home Boys Only and Slowtime would say that Kong was drained, or untested, or something. It isn't hard to see why Americans are hated. The simple fact is that Calzaghe is not Hippa-To-The-Hoppa and he's not American. People like Max Kellerman, Steve Kim etc will simply wait quietly in the wings to assassinate his career achievements with their biros.

BigEars wrote:

Pavlik has beaten Taylor and Miranda
Abraham has beaten Miranda(twice) , you can through in Eastman if you want but John Duddy only did a slightly worse job on Eastman than Abraham did

Forget about Taylor. He's overrated as sh!te and so is Pavlik. HBO trying to make out that the two best Middles in the world were American, good 'ole Country Boy Jermaine Failure and Rust Belt hero Smelly Kelly goin at it, just like 'ole times. What a CROCK OF SH!TE that HBO tried to sell us.

As for the Eastman issue, the decline of Eastman has been marked SINCE the Abraham fight. He's not the same fighter that lost to Abraham, we know this cos if he was he would have cut Duddy a new one. As it happens, the Eastman win was impressive from Abraham cos he hadn't even got 20 fights under his belt. Nothing close to it. And he usually does better when he is pushed hard.

Its all moot as it happens. Abraham, IMHO, is the man at 160, but he is not American and so if Joe killed him he still would get feck all credit. The yanks would dismiss it as an irrelvancy between Euro scrubs, not on their level, the irony of it being that Abraham and Calzaghe can destroy any American fighter currently residing between 160 and 175.

Up at 175 I reckon Kessler, Mundine, Dawson, Tarver and Johnson would be better opponents . Now 168 would be a different story but Abraham would be a tiny Light-heavyweight

Dawson would be a better fight for Joe. Ironically, Joe has the Ring Belt. If Dawson had the Ring Belt, and Joe had the WBC belt, then Dawson would never fight Calzaghe and would do so, with media support, on the grounds that he was "Undisputed" and didn't need to prove himself. Yet Calzaghe will be criticised if he doesn't fight Dawson. More yankee horsesh!t.

BigEars wrote:

Kessler has beaten Siaca, Mundine, Lucas, Beyer and Andrade . He has a far better record than Abraham and has proven himself at 168

Beating Kessler means more than beating Abraham, but not because of the records. Kessler is a bigger man and a resident genuine 168lbr. Thats the difference. As it happens, Mundine is no great shakes, I've already pointed out {diff post} that the last guy Mundine fought was KO'd at 160 by Abraham in Abrahams 13th fight waaaaaay back in 2004. Thats how far AA is ahead of the posse. Lucas was finished and was a punch bag to begin with. Beyer was finished too- he had become cut-prone and chinny. Green had him beat until he fouled out. As for Andrade- another face first punch bag. Miranda was a fresher more dangerous opponent than any of them.

Bigears wrote:

Calzaghe would get zero credit for beating Abraham

He gets zero credit now anyways....but when AA waxes Smelly Kelly they would have to give him some if he beat Arthur. Even at that, they would say Arthur was too small and too MW. No win situation for Joe.

BigEars wrote:

Btw is it just me or does anyone else feel that if Abraham had beaten Miranda the same way except in Germany and not on Showtime that he wouldn't be getting the plaudits as a killer that he is suddenly receiving

True. As the saying goes, "It Ain't News Till Its On CNN".....likewise, AA could have killed Miranda with 1 punch in Germany and it would have been passed off as "dodgy...rumours...controversial....something happened.." the irony of it being that Klitschko was nearly poisoned to death by Don King trying to retain some degree of comfort in the HW division. Just cos it happened in Florida seems to make it more real to the Yanks. Don't ask me.......

BigEars wrote:

Pavlik is rumoured to be facing Sergio Mora/Marco Antonio Rubio/John Duddy in his next fight . That's less of a challenge than Jones is to Calzaghe .

I'm telling you, Pavlik is walking around with a noose around his neck. They think they can beat that hopeless Taylor fella and pass it off as great stuff but they can't. They think they can go down the Taylor route and beat the sh!t out of small undeserving contenders but they can't. Abraham will get him and beat him. Of course, they robbed Hatton, they robbed Felix Sturm and they'll try to do Abraham too.

BigEars wrote:

Why doesn't Pavlik look to fight Mundine or Winky Wright ?

Because Winky is smart enough to make him look as bad as he did Taylor, and thats not good.

Aaron M

Hero Of College wrote: »

they robbed Hatton

Who robbed Hatton and when?

Hero Of College

Aaron M wrote: »

Who robbed Hatton and when?

Who: Joe Cortez.

When: Mayweather Fight.

How: Docked points, wouldn't allow to work on inside. Allowed Floyd to foul.