WRC North Has Been Shelved

Nostradamus

Asked about the other T21 projects but no info.

aliveandkicking

Good news. I reckon Navan, Metro West and Lucan Luas will be next for the chop. I don't particularly mind as long as Dart Underground and Metro North stay in the picture.

Chris_533976

Good. My opinion was that Limerick - Galway was do-able but no more than that. Finally some sense. Lets hope the road plans dont get the chop as the bulk of them are needed badly.

corktina

lets get the track bed split up and sold off now so that this lunatic project doesnt get resurrected....

anyone want to predict how long the southern bit survives?

Irish and Proud

corktina wrote: »

lets get the track bed split up and sold off now so that this lunatic project doesnt get resurrected....

anyone want to predict how long the southern bit survives?

Now, I am a road enthusiast, but this nonsense is only what I could describe as auto-totalitarian. Do you have any idea what is would cost to build a railway from scratch on a per mile basis? You remind me of those who were so eager to decimate the Harcourt St line which is now partly re-instated (a line that would no longer be needed mind you! :rolleyes:) as a light railway at approx €50m per mile!

Line A - 9 miles;
Line B - 4 miles;
Line C - 1 mile; Total 14 miles;
Total Cost - €700m (correct me if I'm wrong);
Cost per mile: €50m.

Now can't you imagine if economic circumstances such as peak oil arose and railways became a widespread necessity? Can't you imagine the cost per mile for Heavy Rail with required land acquisitions factored in, as well as all the engineering measures that would have been lessened by the use of old rail alignments - after you would have delightfully sold the land off! Consider that the Harcourt St Line had most of its alignment intact, and that the other LUAS line required very little land take - and even that came to the said €50m per mile! Talk about short sightedness!

Mind you, I do think that the Northern Section of the WRC should be shelved for now - we need the inter-connector very badly! As for the Southern section of the WRC, I think it will do quite nicely as long as Irish Rail operate it properly with a reliable service. Limerick (Greater) is probably around 100k while Galway is fast approaching that figure.

Regards!

KC61

Nostradamus wrote: »

Asked about the other T21 projects but no info.

What is the source of this information?

corktina

the cost of re-instatement is exactly the reason that it should be put beyond use...totally impractical project....it would be used by only a handful of people at a time who would be better and way more cheaply served by a mini-bus....and I am a Railway Enthusiast of 40+ years standing....much better to put resources into a line with a useful purpose such as Dublin Limerick or Cork Suburban or outer suburban services.

I don't think our grandchildren would thank us for landing them with the cost of this line,simply for political expendiancy.

aliveandkicking

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Now, I am a road enthusiast, but this nonsense is only what I could describe as auto-totalitarian. Do you have any idea what is would cost to build a railway from scratch on a per mile basis? You remind me of those who were so eager to decimate the Harcourt St line which is now partly re-instated (a line that would no longer be needed mind you! :rolleyes:) as a light railway at approx €50m per mile!

Line A - 9 miles;
Line B - 4 miles;
Line C - 1 mile; Total 14 miles;
Total Cost - €700m (correct me if I'm wrong);
Cost per mile: €50m.

Now can't you imagine if economic circumstances such as peak oil arose and railways became a widespread necessity? Can't you imagine the cost per mile for Heavy Rail with required land acquisitions factored in, as well as all the engineering measures that would have been lessened by the use of old rail alignments - after you would have delightfully sold the land off! Consider that the Harcourt St Line had most of its alignment intact, and that the other LUAS line required very little land take - and even that came to the said €50m per mile! Talk about short sightedness!

Mind you, I do think that the Northern Section of the WRC should be shelved for now - we need the inter-connector very badly! As for the Southern section of the WRC, I think it will do quite nicely as long as Irish Rail operate it properly with a reliable service. Limerick (Greater) is probably around 100k while Galway is fast approaching that figure.

Regards!

If ever there is an economic need to have a heavy rail line between Sligo and Galway it would be better to start from scratch and build a straighter alignment serving the biggest towns along the way than to relay the existing alignment. This is because the existing alignment has more curves than a race track, a plethora of level crossings and passes through nothing but open fields. Going by road will always be quicker than the northern bit of the existing WRC. It really makes no sense preserving it.

Victor

corktina wrote: »

lets get the track bed split up and sold off now so that this lunatic project doesnt get resurrected....

Whatever the merits or demerits of the route, it should be kept for things like a long distance cycle route and/or gas pipeline.

You'll get nothing for selling off the land, but it'll cost a fortune to get it back.

corktina

yep...that would do the trick too....:D

Sponge Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by aliveandkicking
Good news. I reckon Navan, Metro West and Lucan Luas will be next for the chop. I don't particularly mind as long as Dart Underground and Metro North stay in the picture.

Navan - Dunboyne + Metro West + Lucan Luas + Rathfarnham Luas and Luas B north to Broadstone have indeed been chopped as has the WRC north of Athenry obviously .

WRC south has no drivers , once the track is built in the next few months there will be fun and games once its found out that there is nobody employed to drive the trains between Ennis and Galway .

The Atlantic Road Corridor from Derry to Waterford via Cork is also dead although some money may be found for Athenry-Barefield over the next 2 years and for Donegal sections .

The Live Rail projects are :

Clonsilla - Dunboyne.
The Quad Track west of Heuston,
Midleton ,
Interconnect Heuston-Connolly

WRC South (track)

and the flagship

Metro North .

Money will be found by borrowing the lot if required.

Metro North and Interconnect share a station under stephens green and must therefore to some extent proceed together because that will be the biggest hole ever dug in Dublin .

Also live are some small jobs on luas docklands and luas extensions to saggart and cherrywood and maybe to shankill after cherrywood.

EVERYTHING OTHER RAIL PROJECT IS ON HOLD until after 2013 when the same lot of projects touted in the NDP 2000-2006 and the NDP 2007-2013 will be trotted out again to annoy us all

gjim

Sponge Bob wrote: »

EVERYTHING OTHER RAIL PROJECT IS ON HOLD until after 2013 when the same lot of projects touted in the NDP 2000-2006 and the NDP 2007-2013 will be trotted out again to annoy us all

:mad::mad: You mean all the messageboard debating and bickering on the merits and/or lack of merit of the various projects, proposed projects, state bodies and alternative routes has been in vain? :mad: We'll have to go through all this again in a couple of years time in the build up to 2013?

All our armchair efforts have been wasted? :mad:

For shame.

Sponge Bob

gjim wrote: »

All our armchair efforts have been wasted? :mad:

For shame.

Not at all

If the money is there to build only 3 projects then which 3 projects would have the most long term utility for the most people.

Metro North
Interconnect
Luas to Lucan

would be my three . I consider the WRC to be a top of an economic cycle 'nice to have' kind of froth .

Sadly the Lucan Luas has been canned because metro west has been canned but there is a grossly underutilised station in Adamstown in the middle of the quad track project instead and sure once the Interconnect is built you will be grand.

Schuhart

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The Live Rail projects are :

Clonsilla - Dunboyne.
The Quad Track west of Heuston,
Midleton ,
Interconnect Heuston-Connolly

WRC South (track)

and the flagship

Metro North .

Money will be found by borrowing the lot if required.

In fairness, with the exception of the WRC South which is politically just going to happen no matter what, its hard to argue with the priorities established, assuming your source to be good.

If even that much is delivered, it should make a noticeable impact. The full T21 always had too much of an election gimmick look to it anyway.

Sponge Bob

Schuhart wrote: »

In fairness, with the exception of the WRC South which is politically just going to happen no matter what, its hard to argue with the priorities established, assuming your source to be good.

My source is very good in fairness. They told me the N17 was pulled ages back and they were right .

The priorities I mentioned will not be finished in 2013 people except for the quad track.

A few Luas line extensions will finish in 2009 2010 2011 2012 time to show that things are happening and to give the urbane and charming Dempsey some photo ops.

Instead there will be a giant hole in Stephens Green in 2013 which will be touted as progress. Dempsey will be photo opped inside it lots of times , honest .

The Interconnect will open in 2015 and Metro North in 2017 , 2016 if it is chopped back to Swords . 24 hour working has also been ruled out I fear.

Victor

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Metro North [will open] in 2017 , 2016 if it is chopped back to Swords

Swords is a driver for MN and is likely to happen sooner rather than later.

Sponge Bob

Forgot to mention Frank Fahey

Frank confirmed to the Connaught Tribune a week back that the WRC North was gone and Frank is , after all, Chair of the Transport Committee in the Dáil .

http://www.galwaynews.ie/4011-west-rail-corridor-hits-buffers

Plans to fully re-open the Western Rail Corridor are now in jeopardy, according to the chairman of the Oireachtas Committee on Transport - because Frank Fahey said the government had to be “realistic” about what money will be available for the next phases of the project.

Speaking exclusively to The Connacht Tribune, Deputy Fahey said the government could now only guarantee the completion of the first phase of the project linking Ennis with Athenry.

Irish and Proud

aliveandkicking wrote: »

If ever there is an economic need to have a heavy rail line between Sligo and Galway it would be better to start from scratch and build a straighter alignment serving the biggest towns along the way than to relay the existing alignment. This is because the existing alignment has more curves than a race track, a plethora of level crossings and passes through nothing but open fields. Going by road will always be quicker than the northern bit of the existing WRC. It really makes no sense preserving it.

Well if the existing alignment is as you described, then indeed it might be better to start fresh, whenever the need for such a rail link arises. In that case, it might be wiser to seek a more direct link from Galway to Tuam and then proceed to Claremorris.

Regards!

Irish and Proud

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Not at all

If the money is there to build only 3 projects then which 3 projects would have the most long term utility for the most people.

Metro North
Interconnect
Luas to Lucan

would be my three . I consider the WRC to be a top of an economic cycle 'nice to have' kind of froth .

Sadly the Lucan Luas has been canned because metro west has been canned but there is a grossly underutilised station in Adamstown in the middle of the quad track project instead and sure once the Interconnect is built you will be grand.

For me, the priorities post 2010 would be:

1) Interconnector and Dart Extensions (Balbriggan, Maynooth, Hazelhatch)
2) Metro North (Stephens Green to Swords (no shortcuts!)
3) AWC (M20/M18 Mitchelstown via Limerick to Athenry sections)

Post 2015:

1) By-passing (or Quad-tracking) North City DART Line (Connolly to Malahide)
2) Metro West (Tallaght to Blanchardstown (full grade seperation))
3) AWC (M17 Athenry to Sligo, M24 Waterford to Cahir sections)

The Dart Lines would be top priority as existing assets could be massively enhanced - this would generate the much needed extra capacity in the city. The AWC is the other vital prong in the war against Dublin's congestion - so the above mentioned projects would be Good for Dublin (and Leinster), Good for the West!

Regards!

Schuhart

Irish and Proud wrote: »

The AWC is the other vital prong in the war against Dublin's congestion

It really isn't. I mean, if the numbers are there to justify the investment, fine. I don't know if they are or not and I haven't looked into it in any detail.

But can we detach ourselves from this idea that congestion in Dublin is addressed by doing something other than placing capacity in Dublin to deal with transport needs in Dublin. The ludicrous idea that people would stream from the capital if capacity was put elsewhere is what has harmed the State since Dev's time. Can we just deal with realities. If there's a need for a certain level of capacity in a certain location, by all means lets do it. But lets not pretend that people will flock West if we build a big empty road there.

markf909

The Live Rail projects are :

Clonsilla - Dunboyne.
The Quad Track west of Heuston,
Midleton ,
Interconnect Heuston-Connolly

WRC South (track)

and the flagship

Metro North .

That all makes perfect sense. There has to be a catch?

With respect to the Lucan Luas, for about 1/10th of the projected cost you could develop a very good local bus system around the vast housing estates to feed people into the Dart station at Adamstown, post interconnector. From there, they will be ~20mins from Stephens Green.

I see that in conjunction with the existing 25A QBC to be a far better investment of public monies than a brand new Luas line that will not be segrated at any point.

Nostradamus

KC61 wrote: »

What is the source of this information?

a memo was sent out on June 16th.

Sponge Bob

Memo from whom to whom Nostradamus ???

Just for a laugh you should read the November 2005 estimated completion date for these Dublin projects as told to the Dailby Cullen and teh department. It would be funny if it were not all completely wrong

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0609/D.0609.200511090156.html

The Minister for Finance and I engaged extensively on the preparation of this landmark framework which involves the investment of over €34 billion in current prices in the ten year period 2006 to 2015.

I include a table which will show the completion dates of each metro or Luas project.

Project and Completion

Joining of the Red and Green Luas lines 2008 ( not started )
Luas extension to Docklands 2009 (started)
Luas extension Tallaght to Citywest 2008 ( not started )
Metro West Phase 1 Tallaght to Clondalkin 2010 ( not started )
Metro North 2012 ( not started )

and loads more , all not started bar the 7km Cherrywood extension.

the M50 got priority

Nostradamus

Just had a look at the WoT website for the first time in months to see if they had anything to say. Looks like they got wind of it the weekend before. As expected an OTT reaction, but what's really interesting is how this press release was essentialy ignored even by the Western media.

West=On=Track -News

Attempts To Sabotage Western Rail Corridor Will Fail

Press Release 14th June 2008


The West on Track community campaign has noted the recent systematic series of attacks on the re-opening of the Western Rail Corridor, being conducted through articles in national and local newspapers and appearances by Dublin-based economists on high-profile radio programmes and chat shows.
This attempt to obstruct the re-opening of an existing piece of invaluable national infrastructure is being set against the background of the recent downturn in Government finances.
As part of Transport 21 the section of the Western Rail Corridor from Ennis to Claremorris is currently being rebuilt with the first phase, linking Galway and Limerick, the 3rd and 4th largest cities of the state, scheduled to become operational in April of next year. The cost which includes upgrades to the existing InterCity railway between Athenry and Galway City is euro106m. The shorter sections to Tuam and Claremorris will then be completed as outlined in the programme for Government at a similar cost, far from the euro350m figure quoted by "experts" from Dublin.
Sustainability is now a key element of transport planning in Ireland with the Department of Transport anxious to progress public transport projects in line with current environmental thinking on waste and fuel reduction.
A spokesman for West on Track commented:
"EU policy now recognises that rail is the most sustainable form of public transport. At a time of economic downturn, the government is to be commended for learning from the mistakes of the past. A policy of prioritising investment in public transport infrastucture is a prudent and responsible course of action to take."
"The Western Rail Corridor is the ONLY major public transport project in the west of Ireland and represents less than 0.5% of the expenditure planned under Transport 21. By contrast there are 14 major projects in the greater Dublin area. None of these is coming under sustained attack, nor should they. Ireland needs all the public transport infrastructure it can get."
"It is nevertheless somewhat amusing to see the Dublin economist who led the campaign against the Luas now being wheeled out to attack the only significant public transport project given to the West of Ireland with a series of wildly inaccurate statements and generalisations, while at the same time a growing oil crisis points to the urgent necessity of developing just such public transport alternatives."
"The arrogance of such people is highlighted by remarks about throwing euro350 million to the people of the West and letting them argue about how they should use it, or forcing people in the West to make a choice between having a proper road from Dublin or the Western Rail Corridor," said the spokesman. "Are these people unaware that in this region, far more people travel daily on a north south axis than east-west. The West requires both road and rail infrastructure. What is unreasonable about that?"
"We believe the Government is to be commended for taking a NATIONAL view of the development of infrastructure and looking to the future in terms of planning for the WHOLE country. We are absolutely confident that the Government will proceed with the project which is now well ahead of schedule, that it will prove all the cynics wrong and that these insidious attempts to sabotage it will fail."
"It is generally accepted that the Western region has lagged behind in terms of infrastructural investment. For years now, the IDA, Ireland West Tourism and many others have been pointing out that a lack of basic infrastructure is severely hampering the development of the whole western Region. Re-opening the WRC will make a significant contribution towards redressing this imbalance."
"In terms of connectivity, linking Sligo and Galway by rail to Limerick and Cork makes perfect sense, especially since the basic infrastructure is already in place and the property already in state ownership. In the light of rising oil prices and motoring costs, it also seems extraordinary that anyone could doubt that the linking of Galway and Limerick, the 3rd and 4th largest cities of the state by rail would not deliver value for money. It is, after all, the busiest bus route in the state."
"As far as subsidies are concerned, no one would sensibly suggest that the Dart, though heavily subsidised, is a waste of money. Rather it is an essential piece of national infrastructure. It is a fact that all modes of transport require subsidy. What parameters are used to measure the value for money delivered by roads?"
"And as for the cost of the project as a whole, it should be remembered that the entire route of the Western Rail Corridor is in public ownership and that the construction of one mile of railway is significantly less expensive than that of one mile of road."
"Western Rail Corridor campaigners were accused of imagining the demand for services and their projections for freight traffic were scoffed at by commentators from the east coast. When we proved that demand by securing 18 trains a week which are obliged to travel, on an interim basis, through the congested Greater Dublin Area en route to Waterford Port, the cynics ignored that achievement. Currently, Dublin cannot produce one freight train per week. Our success at transferring 16,000 truck movements from roads onto rail, representing 3 million displaced truck miles per annum, between Mayo and Waterford is a fact that sustains our projections and confounds the sceptics. These freight trains receive no subsidy, unlike the DART, LUAS and Dublin Port Tunnel. These freight trains will be transferred to the Western Rail Corridor when complete to compliment passenger revenues".
"In Transport 21 the Government of Ireland has chosen to develop rail transport in a way not seen since before the foundation of the state. The entire Western Rail Corridor project comprises a tiny fraction of that whole plan. Why then is it being singled out for attack? Balanced regional development and the implementation of the National Spatial strategy are the cornerstones of Government policy and the logical basis for the re-opening of the Western Rail Corridor. The phased re-opening of the WRC makes sense, not just for the West, but for Ireland as a whole."

Hardly surprising it was ignored.

KC61

Nostradamus wrote: »

a memo was sent out on June 16th.

From Department of Transport or Finance?

Ham'nd'egger

Nostra, most likely the western papers didn't get sniff until it was too late hence the lack of word about it. I do know that many of the regional rags are laid out editorially by the Friday and are in print Sunday/Monday for mid week release. I happen to have access to two of the Mayo papers and can let you know what and if they have to say.

Reenascreena

The obvious thing to do is to link Galway to Cork via Limerick. A continual service serving Ennis Charleville and Mallow en-route.
This corridor is the only place in the country that has the potential to offer a balance to the development of Leinster.
The small minded way things are done in Ireland means that it hasn't even been mentioned.
A fast direct service between Cork and Galway would be well used, already the route is home to the busiest bus services in the country.

Sponge Bob

Reenascreena wrote: »

A fast direct service between Cork and Galway would be well used, already the route is home to the busiest bus services in the country.

Agreed.

Once ( pre 1960) there was a railway from Limerick - Patrickswell - Charleville ( its visible east of where a lot of the N20 is today )

The NRA is designing a NEW N20 so why not reinstate that line albeit with swings into croom and bruff as well , they both had stations on it .

The Only problem is getting 2 state agencies to share this task, namely the RPA and the NRA, and without being petty and stupid. This is probably impossible with Noel Dempsey in charge of the vision thing

Use the existing line from Patrickswell-Limerick and the existing line Cork-Charleville . You only need max 18 miles of new track mainly along the new N20 .





So then the corridor should carry on to Derry once thats up and running but Cork - Limerick should follow Galway - Limerick I totally agree .

Chris_533976

Sponge Bob wrote: »

My source is very good in fairness. They told me the N17 was pulled ages back and they were right .

I want to know who your source is

invincibleirish

Reenascreena wrote: »

A fast direct service between Cork and Galway would be well used, already the route is home to the busiest bus services in the country.

The WRC will not offer a fast service, because most of it will be single track will it even be reliable?

I like the idea of a Cork/Limerick/Galway service (stopping at Mallow/Ennis) but surely there should be a new line for that as opposed to reopening the WRC?

Ant idea yet how much a trip will cost on the WRC?

Zoney

I wasn't aware that WRC North was ever really off the shelf in the first place, certainly for north of Tuam. And even Tuam to Athenry was only on the drawing board for the medium-term was it not?

Really has there ever been any deviation from the official report? I.e. to reopen Ennis-Athenry now, consider Tuam-Athenry later on, and just keep anything north of that as a prospective long term option (i.e. fence it off and hold onto the alignment). Ennis-Athenry is not a higher priority than Dublin projects in absolute terms, but I don't think anyone should be surprised or against it happening first all the same, for the simple reason that it is relatively cheap and easy to do, a vast amount more so than other projects that need new alignments (Navan), or are major in nature (Metro), and yet does give the benefit of an intercity link.

I'm not surprised to hear there's no drivers for Ennis-Athenry, that's pretty typical organisation and planning from our authorities is it not? Would presumably be the case regardless of the state of the govt. coffers. As far as I know the trains for the line are already in the pipeline though (a couple sets of the new regional railcars).