How to start? - First Marathon

On_the_move

Hi Guys,
I'm a 29 year old guy whom has kept in an OK condition, on and off to the gym mostly doing cardio, I've always loved running and it is a big part of what I do when I go to the gym, when I go! This can be for a few months a time and off again for several months. I would really like to run a marathon and I am giving myself plenty of time, planning to do it in 10 to 12 months time depending on my fitness level.
How should I proceed from here in regards to training and what in the gym should I avoid.?

xebec

Get yourself a plan like this one to follow so that you know you're going in the right direction :rolleyes: If your level of fitness is reasonably high then there's still time to get ready for Dublin in Oct. Do some other shorter races just to keep yourself interested and to track your progress.

As for what to avoid... Eh, I dunno. Do plenty of running, mix it up with cycling and crosstrainer every now and then and no harm having a light weights program to back it all up...

--amadeus--

If you are interested in doing a marathon then forget the gym (for the most part). You want to run, so run!

If all you want to do is tick off the box then Xebec is right there is still time to get ready for Dublin in Oct, follow one of the Higdon plans or this one which has a lot of cross training which might suit you if you are a gym person. Look for shorter races as wel and get a couple of 5 & 10k's under your belt and see if you still fancy it.

The only advice I would give is to think about why you want to do a marathon. Is it for the achievment? Or is it for fitness/ Is it to enjoy the event or to do your best and run a good time? Will it be a one off or will could you see yourself doing more? Do you enjoy running? How good are you at commitment - 5 days a week for 12 - 18 weeks is a major commitment and thats what's needed! Once you work out what you want from the marathon you can stucture your training to suit.

And good luck!

willowthewisp

Hi, I am quite like the above poster in terms of the gym and am a 5 day a weeker i am currently following the adidas plan (Noel Carrolls one in the handout for marathon applic), my main question is do you think it is ok to do sa 4 out of the 5/6 weekly runs on the treadmill in the gym, and the long run of the week on the roads?
Or will this mean i am not used to the roads and may break down during the marathon.

How Strange

willowthewisp wrote: »

Hi, my main question is do you think it is ok to do sa 4 out of the 5/6 weekly runs on the treadmill in the gym, and the long run of the week on the roads?
Or will this mean i am not used to the roads and may break down during the marathon.

I'd say no, it isn't good to do your running on threadmills rather than roads or grass. Personally, I don't think running on a threadmill is anything like being on a road and I'd say you wouldn't be as prepared on the day as someone who pounded the roads 4 or 5 times a week. I've no scientific evidence or whatever for saying this, it's just my opinion.

Plus, running 6 times a week is IMO over doing it. I even think 5 times is a little too much even though my training schedule is based on 5 days.

willowthewisp

How Strange wrote: »

I'd say no, it isn't good to do your running on threadmills rather than roads or grass. Personally, I don't think running on a threadmill is anything like being on a road and I'd say you wouldn't be as prepared on the day as someone who pounded the roads 4 or 5 times a week. I've no scientific evidence or whatever for saying this, it's just my opinion.

Plus, running 6 times a week is IMO over doing it. I even think 5 times is a little too much even though my training schedule is based on 5 days.

Ok thanks, ill try and get more on the roads.
My current schedule is a 4 days running and one day cross training schedule.

xebec

Well from a different perspective... I do most of my running during the week on a treadmill. It suits me because I like having access to weights and other equipment after my run and also because I enjoy the atmosphere in the gym. (Won't mention the jacuzzi ) My long runs at weekends are always outdoors, which is very important for race preparation. Every now and then I'll throw in an extra outdoors session during the week, but I find it easier to gauge my pace etc on a treadmill. By all means, if you prefer running indoors or find it easier to use a treadmill during the week then go for it, but make sure you get time running outdoors too. I don't believe that this has affected my training or preparation for races adversely at all, but then I'm nowhere near the front of the field.

What I'm saying and being longwinded about it, do whatever works for you but if you are going to use the treadmill make sure you are doing some decent miles outdoors too.

earlyevening

Sorry to go off topic but this "threadmill" thing is beginning to irritate me. TREADMILL.

On_the_move

Thanks guys, The thing is I work 8 months of the year abroad with the rest free, so my running has aways been decided on where I work etc. Sometimes easy to go for a run and sometimes not. But recently good gyms have been created so now I have a chance to do it more regular.
I will have to wait until next year for a marathon as I just won't be home for it. Until then I plan to imporve my fitness to a point where I am happy to start a marathon training program.

cfitz

How Strange wrote: »

Plus, running 6 times a week is IMO over doing it. I even think 5 times is a little too much even though my training schedule is based on 5 days.

There is no way that running six times a week for a marathon is overdoing it. No way. Build up slowly if you like, but don't stop at 5 days!!!

911sc

It all depends on the answers to questions raised by Amadeus.

I have "only" ran 3 marathons to date (Dublin, Connemara and Cork) and i have never trained 5 or 6 days per week as my family commitments would not allow anyway.

For the Connemarathon, i pushed my training too hard by focusing and following religiously the "training plan" rather than listening to my body.. and ended up with ITBS 4weeks before race day.

For the Cork marathon, i actually hardly trained for it (as i was starting to cycle and do duathlons), but i focused on the long runs (1 per week - 16 to 21miles). I ran Cork with 2 friends, one of them who started running about 10weeks before the marathon - See my website at www.doitforthem.ie

BUT... i am running marathons in the 4h20's...
Would i like to run them faster? YES.
Am i going to run the next one faster? MAY BE, MAY BE NOT...as my main objectives are to 1-enjoy the running , 2- enjoy the races, 3-enjoy the challenge, 4-enjoy the build-up, 5-still be able to smile at the cameras & crowd when crossing the finish line:)...but I will eventually get faster/more confortable as consistency in training (being 2days per week or 5days per week depending on objectives) is the key. I still have sub 4h as an objective though.

Different strokes for different folks...

cfitz

911sc wrote: »

Different strokes for different folks...

A marathon is a RACE. The topic here is about training for a marathon not training to run 26.2 miles. Running 6 times per week to train for a marathon is not overdoing it.

TheRoadRunner

Depending on your goals, running 6 days per week is not overdoing it.

I take a day off every 2 weeks and I still feel to improve, I will need to increase on mileage covered and intensity.

For anybody considering doing the marathon I think a minimum of 4 days is required but again this depends on your goals etc

911sc

Great post here from Amadeus.

--amadeus--

It does all depend on what you want to get out of it and on your level of experience. In no way is an experienced runner (and especially an experienced marathon unner) overdoing it if they run 6 (or even 7) days a week. The key is active rest; recoveryruns at a low intensity. Novices tend to run every session hard which is why they tend to need more rest days.

If all you want is to get round then 3 days a week (one long run, one shorter and one mid length) will get you there, all the more so if you cross train. But if you want to run to the best of your ability or set a faster time (for arguments sake sub 4) then training 5 days a week would be the standard expectation.

As for the treadmill I would avoid them. It is possible to train on them and they can be good for intervals. Some people (like xebec) swear by them.

However they do break the "specificality of training" principal. Basically if you want to run on roads you need to train (as much as possible) on roads as this will prompt your body to make the correct adaptations. So a treadmill is a lower impact surface than tarmac or concrete so you (for example) miss the stimulus to thicken / strengthen tendons which in turn increases your risk on premature fatigue or injury on the day. Likewise a treadmill pulls your feet to an extent making running a little easier, it lacks wind resistance and weather. They also make training tougher mentally than it needs to be (in my opinion) - a 3 hour run on a treadmill? I'd rather have a beer gut...

(And thank you 911sc for my daily ego boost )

hunnymonster

cfitz wrote: »

A marathon is a RACE. The topic here is about training for a marathon not training to run 26.2 miles. Running 6 times per week to train for a marathon is not overdoing it.

Eh, Could someone tell me what this means? Last time I checked (granted that was on Sunday afternoon) a marathon was 26.2 miles?

cfitz

hunnymonster wrote: »

Eh, Could someone tell me what this means? Last time I checked (granted that was on Sunday afternoon) a marathon was 26.2 miles?

A marathon is a race, a race is a competition. 26.2 miles is just 26.2 miles.

If you want to train to run 26.2 miles, it's a simple target and for most people would require patience more so than hard work.

If you want to compete (at whatever level) in a marathon, the training level would be set at the threshold that allows you to compete at your best.

TheRoadRunner

I think the poster is trying to illustrate the difference in training depending if you are running (getting around) or running for a time (racing) ?

(see above he beat me to it)

--amadeus--

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

To race a marathon you've got to run 26.2 miles they are not exclusive goals.

cfitz

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

To race a marathon you've got to run 26.2 miles they are not exclusive goals.

I don't understand how that is relevant.

Someone posted here looking for advice on training for a marathon. Someone else suggested that running 6 times per week would be overdoing it. I said that it wouldn't be overdoing it.

If someone said they wanted to train for the 5000 metres, I don't think any decent coach would tell them that ultimately their training should peak at 5 runs per week.

--amadeus--

FWIW I agree that running 6 days a week isn't overdoing it.

But I don't agree with your emphasis on the racing aspect of the marathon in relation to the OP. From what I can see he runs on a treadie in the gym every now and again. Reading between the lines it doesn't sound like he has ever been in a race. In no way should he (in my opinion) go straight to racing a marathon. Instead I think he should focus on road running and endurance, the speed can come later.

Training for a marathon you normally build endurance first and speed later. In your earlier posts you seemed to imply a huge difference in the training for running 26.2 miles and racing a marathon. I agree there is a difference in emphasis and probably intensity but I don't see them as exclusive goals, someone training to race will do broadly the same training as someone simply looking to finish, won't they?

hunnymonster

cfitz, can we clarify something, are you trying to say that to train for a marathon you have to train to be competitive in the marathon and to race the event? If so go read the charter!

cfitz

hunnymonster wrote: »

cfitz, can we clarify something, are you trying to say that to train for a marathon you have to train to be competitive in the marathon and to race the event? If so go read the charter!

Just stating what training for a marathon is. I have read the charter, there is nothing I have said that infringes on it.

hunnymonster

that's ok.

Training for a marathon is very different for different people. Some people just want to get out there and complete the distance. They can easily do that on 3 runs a week (Furman).

They do not race a marathon but they do "do" a marathon. "Racing" and "doing" are both different approaches but both valid.

I don't think it's overdoing it to train 14 times a week (as I did last time I trained to race an event), but I certainly wouldn't be recommending that approach to someone out to complete their first marathon for the accomplishment of doing it.

cfitz

--amadeus-- wrote: »

FWIW I agree that running 6 days a week isn't overdoing it.

But I don't agree with your emphasis on the racing aspect of the marathon in relation to the OP. From what I can see he runs on a treadie in the gym every now and again. Reading between the lines it doesn't sound like he has ever been in a race. In no way should he (in my opinion) go straight to racing a marathon. Instead I think he should focus on road running and endurance, the speed can come later.

Training for a marathon you normally build endurance first and speed later. In your earlier posts you seemed to imply a huge difference in the training for running 26.2 miles and racing a marathon. I agree there is a difference in emphasis and probably intensity but I don't see them as exclusive goals, someone training to race will do broadly the same training as someone simply looking to finish, won't they?

Well I thought that because all (or almost all) marathon training is under your race distance, that a lot of it is done at close to race pace. If you were just trying to cover the distance you wouldn't need to do anything at a faster pace would you? Everything could be really relaxed. To me that's a different structure altogether - every training session is at the same level of intensity, the structure of your week would be different.

With regard to the original poster, he's giving himself a long time to prepare for this marathon, no reason why he can't be in great condition.

911sc

cfitz wrote: »

Someone posted here looking for advice on training for a marathon.

An important word is missing here, and may explain the differences in the views expressed in this thread. The OP is looking for advice to run his/her FIRST marathon.

tunney

911sc I'd agree with you except that you used the "run" word.

Doing a marathon
Running a marathon
Racing a marathon

All very very different things.

cfitz

911sc wrote: »

An important word is missing here, and may explain the differences in the views expressed in this thread. The OP is looking for advice to run his/her FIRST marathon.

True, but I don't think it explains setting a low upper limit to the amount of running.

Stupid_Private

911sc wrote: »

The OP is looking for advice to run his/her FIRST marathon.

If someone's looking for advice on training for their first or tenth marathon the basic plan is going to be the same. The intensity will be different, not the structure

--amadeus--

Which is exactly what I said a while back - I agree with Tunney about the "marathon pyramid" - do -> run -> race - but they build on each other and the overall training for all will be based on the same principles. Intensity will change but it's all fundamentally the same.

But one thing caught my eye:

Well I thought that because all (or almost all) marathon training is under your race distance, that a lot of it is done at close to race pace

That's quite different to the normal plan, the vast bulk (maybe as much as 80%) of my training will be below race pace. LSRs and aerobic runs make up the bulk of a marathon plans training volume and they should both be below race race. Cfitz do you mind my asking what training plans you followed and the results they gave?

cfitz

Sorry, was away for a few days...

My racing distance at the moment is 10k, so almost all of my training is over-distance and thus below race pace. My plans for the marathon are for a few years time so I haven't got a definite structure that I would use. So perhaps I am misinformed about training so much at race pace (though it seems to make sense). I'm still quite adamant that 5 days a week isn't enough though

Seen as you asked I'll give you a sample of some of my recent training:

I have just finished 16 weeks of base mileage. Every 4th week was a low mileage week. My longest run was 25k in 1:42:30. A normal week would have been something like this (barely over 100k):

Monday - AM: 25min jog (~5k) PM: 60min (~14k)

Tuesday - 4 x 1600m w/5min recovery within 60min very easy. (~5:23 1600m)

Wednesday - 60min (~14k). Gentle core exercises.

Thursday - AM: 25min jog (~5k) PM: 60min (~14k)

Friday - REST

Saturday - 60min (~14k). Circuit training: 3 x 10 (30sec on, 30sec off - not very high intensity).

Sunday - 90min (~22k)

Every day apart from Friday and Saturday I would do 20 press-ups, 150 sit-ups, and 60 back extensions.