Its time to leave Europe

Gareth37

Weighing up the pros and cons its time for Ireland to leave Europe. Its only a matter of time before the Uk does and Ireland should do it first.

The grants have run out and the embargos, bans and quotas makes Europe unsustainable for the Irish economy.

We cannot meet their expectations and we need to rejuvenate our fishing and farming markets. The Swiss have negotiated much better trade deals as a result of being independent, Ireland should follow this example.

Pull out and save our economy.

Padraig Mor

Gareth37 wrote: »

The grants have run out

What a fantastically mature reason to leave "Europe"!

Mena

Gareth37 wrote: »

Pull out and save our economy.

I think you meant to say "pull out and ruin our economy" no? As, you're not seriously suggesting that leaving the EU will be good for Ireland?

Gareth37

Padraig Mor wrote: »

What a fantastically mature reason to leave "Europe"!

Its the same reason why every american company will have left Ireland by 2015 so yes

tolosenc

[british accent]You, sir, are an idiot.[/british accent]

The only reason this country is on it's knees right now, and wasn't for the last 20 years is the EU. There is no logical reason for leaving the EU.

Gareth37

Mena wrote: »

I think you meant to say "pull out and ruin our economy" no? As, you're not seriously suggesting that leaving the EU will be good for Ireland?

Our farming, tourism and fishing industries have been destroyed. We cannot export houses to Europe.

We have nothing to export so what is the point staying in Europe?

bringitdown

Gareth37 wrote: »

Our farming, tourism and fishing industries have been destroyed. We cannot export houses to Europe.

Are you saying they would have been sustained or will be sustained outside Europe? How do we compete against lower cost farm/fishery producers? Impose tarriffs? Would they impose tarriffs on us?

Gareth37 wrote: »

We have nothing to export so what is the point staying in Europe?

Nothing? Is all we do here farming, tourism and construction? How exactly does this place survive?

Ireland Exports $102 billion f.o.b. (2005 est.)
Exported goods machinery and equipment, computers, software, chemicals, pharmaceuticals; live animals, animal products
Main export partners : United States 18.7%, United Kingdom 17.3% (EU), Belgium 15.1% (EU), Germany 7.3% (EU), Netherlands 4.8% (2005) (EU)

Troll much?

Fratton Fred

Gareth37 wrote: »

Our farming, tourism and fishing industries have been destroyed. We cannot export houses to Europe.

We have nothing to export so what is the point staying in Europe?

Isn't this country "Technically" one of the largest exporters of software in the world, due to Oracle, Microsoft, HP etc being here and using this as the base to ship software all over europe?

Leave the EU and I'm pretty sure those companies will leave here like the proverbial "Hot Snot".

MikeHoncho

Thread brings the LOL's.

Gareth37

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Isn't this country "Technically" one of the largest exporters of software in the world, due to Oracle, Microsoft, HP etc being here and using this as the base to ship software all over europe?

Leave the EU and I'm pretty sure those companies will leave here like the proverbial "Hot Snot".

They will leave when their IDA grants run out, thats the only reason US companies are here. Europe was good for grants, thats all.

We are an island surrounded by water and our fishing industry has been destroyed.

We are a very rural country and Europe are trying to phase out our farming (and succeeding).

Our economy is gone either way but I really think that feeding into their pot is not going to help.

ninty9er

Gareth37 wrote: »

They will leave when their IDA grants run out, thats the only reason US companies are here. Europe was good for grants, thats all.

Europe is quite a large chunk of our export market; which is where these US MNC want to export to. We speak English and aside from that, many of their CEO are "Irish" and will locate here for a start. They pick us, because they only pay 12.5c in the Dollar here in CT as opposed to 30 odd in the UK and up to the high 50s in places. If we pull out "Europe" can tax our good out of the reasonable price range, not that the idiots at ICTU aren't doing their best to succeed at that with wage demands anyway.

Gareth37 wrote: »

We are an island surrounded by water and our fishing industry has been destroyed.

Again, it's up to the fishermen to compete. I mean if 10 skippers have 10 boats and can't compete with a factory ship.....NEWSFLASH....pool your resources and you CAN FFS

Gareth37 wrote: »

We are a very rural country and Europe are trying to phase out our farming (and succeeding).

Farmers are doing a pretty good job of it themselves if you ask me. The EU is paying them a fortune to sustain their lifestyle. Withdrawing would lead to many farms going under due to the on farm mismanagement that has prevailed since the 1950s

Gareth37 wrote: »

Our economy is gone either way but I really think that feeding into their pot is not going to help.

Our economy will recover with the strengthening economies of Europe once we remain part of the structure

mwnger

Maybe we won't have a choice...

marco_polo

Gareth37 wrote: »

Weighing up the pros and cons its time for Ireland to leave Europe. Its only a matter of time before the Uk does and Ireland should do it first.

The grants have run out and the embargos, bans and quotas makes Europe unsustainable for the Irish economy.

We cannot meet their expectations and we need to rejuvenate our fishing and farming markets. The Swiss have negotiated much better trade deals as a result of being independent, Ireland should follow this example.

Pull out and save our economy.

Great idea, the swiss argicultural model is definately the way to go. Lets subsidise 70% of our agricultural market instead of the measly 35% currently.

http://www.traveldocs.com/ch/economy.htm

Their fishing sector is in tatters as well so best not to follow their lead on that either

Kev_ps3

I agree, we should leave Europe.

stevedublin

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I agree, we should leave Europe.

Any reason why we should leave, or just for the fun of it?

djpbarry

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I agree, we should leave Europe.

I disagree.

humanji

mwnger wrote: »

Maybe we won't have a choice...

lol, brilliant.

OP, I'm curious how you think Ireland will survive without the EU, since apparently we export bugger all and all our industries are in tatters?

djpbarry

humanji wrote: »

OP, I'm curious how you think Ireland will survive without the EU, since apparently we export bugger all and all our industries are in tatters?

The "heroes" of 1916 will be raised from the dead to lead us into a glorious neo-nationalist era!

Zombrex

Gareth37 wrote: »

Pull out and save our economy.

Ireland exports 63% of its goods within the EU (compared to 18% to the US).

How would pulling out of the EU, making it difficult for our export industry to export with the EU block, "save" our economy.

You say we should pull out because the grants are gone?

Why?

What in your opinion is the damage to be caused to the Irish economy by staying in.

Belfast

if we leave the EU, should we apply to become the 51st state of the United States of America?

marco murphy

Mad suggestion, stay in, and make sure it remains a purely economical union.

Poblachtach

Poblachtach wrote: »

Mad suggestion, stay in, and make sure it remains a purely economical union.

It's already to some extent a political union. The economic, political and social spheres can't be completely separated.

Mr.Micro

No way can we leave Europe. We would be finished economically and very vulnerable. What currency would we have if we did, the Punt or keep the Euro? No whether we like it or not we are locked in the EU for as long as it lasts. The UK has a bigger pop. than us with a massive financial sector and industry so can still keep its own currency. We are just small fry and need the support of EU club. Maybe in 100 years time we might have a choice but not now IMO.

turgon

People have to realize that posters like Kev_PS3 do not understand the idea of a consequence, nor do they seem to grapple well with reason. Utter ignorant nationalism is what they envisage. They hold this ideal close to their cold hearts, ignoring basic facts such as that an isolated united Ireland that they desire would be ripped apart by in-fighting and a poor quality of living. They want to live in the land of the Irish fairies, where free maidens pick berry's from the forest shrubs and the men prance around singing about Celtic battles. My message:

Wake up boys, your in the 21st century.

louthandproud

turgon wrote: »

People have to realize that posters like Kev_PS3 do not understand the idea of a consequence, nor do they seem to grapple well with reason. Utter ignorant nationalism is what they envisage. They hold this ideal close to their cold hearts, ignoring basic facts such as that an isolated united Ireland that they desire would be ripped apart by in-fighting and a poor quality of living. They want to live in the land of the Irish fairies, where free maidens pick berry's from the forest shrubs and the men prance around singing about Celtic battles. My message:

Wake up boys, your in the 21st century.

+1

Bar room, tabloid crap about leaving the EU. Utter nonsense.

Padraig Mor

Padraig Mor wrote: »

What a fantastically mature reason to leave "Europe"!

Many students do this.

Kevster

This is a "mad suggestion" indeed. The EU has been wonderful for us and, just when times are getting tough, you're talking about getting out? I was deeply upset with the 'no' vote because I think that all 'No-ers' were mislead. Then again, our politicians never made a good case for the 'Yes' vote.

It is very two-faced of us to reap the benefits of joining the EU when our economy was small (on a global scale); and to now block the process whereby we - a country with a top economy - could help other smaller nations along the way to great economic success by joining the EU themselves.

You - all 'No-ers' - have been duped by a group of people only looking for personal rewards (i.e. - selfish people).

Kevin.

turgon

What an unbelievably ignorant point of view. Im not even going to bother replying.

is_that_so

Gareth37 wrote: »

Our farming, tourism and fishing industries have been destroyed. We cannot export houses to Europe.

Actually for tourism that's just bad weather and overpriced bad service.

And what does this departure include?

Do we keep the Euro?
Do we join EFTA, all four of them?
Should we increase taxes to pay for the EU farm payments we'll lose?
Will we shed all the EU rules, especially those that currently relate to workers' rights and consumer rights?
Do we tie ourselves in to the EU by binding our legislation to new legislation like Norway and get results we have no input into?
Do we really just want to be a backwater on the periphery of Europe?
Are we willing to forego the overall benefits of low interest rates form the ECB?

Britain could probably survive on its own as its economy is large enough but for now chooses to be part of Europe. It's beef with the EU has always been to do with power and sovereignty.
Can we say that we'd survive?

The last time we were on our own so to speak was in the ERM days before the ECB.

I certainly think it is time for this debate but not without people attempting to understand what the EU is and does beyond the ususal selected sound bytes and slogans.

Kevster

turgon wrote: »

What an unbelievably ignorant point of view. Im not even going to bother replying.

I assume that you are referring to your own reply just a few back up the list? If so, then yes: You were unbelievably ignorant.

Take care,
Kevin.

Kevster

I am somewhat appeased today, in fact, because there is an article by Willie O'Dea in the Sunday Independent that reinforces what I have said.

Kevin.

oscarBravo

It's time this thread started conforming to the charter, which I recommend everybody read before replying again.

craichoe

We need these guys:
http://langerland.com/content/view/78/59/


To be honest though, i really hope Ireland doesnt leave the EU, i think we take the ability to travel and work easily around the EU completely for granted. I'm an Irish Expat living in the Netherlands, non EU citizens have to go through an AWFUL lot to work here easily.

molloyjh

Kevster wrote: »

I assume that you are referring to your own reply just a few back up the list? If so, then yes: You were unbelievably ignorant.

Take care,
Kevin.

Harsh but fair I would have said......Lets face it the US multi-nationals are here for 2 main reasons. The corporation tax rate and the access to the European market. Take either away and we would be in a spot of bother. The idea of leaving the EU and relying on farming and fishing is ludicrous, and smacks of a "take the money and run" attitude.

ChocolateSauce

stevedublin wrote: »

We are an island surrounded by water

There's another type?

brianthebard

obl wrote: »

[british accent]You, sir, are an idiot.[/british accent] The only reason this country is on it's knees right now, and wasn't for the last 20 years is the EU. There is no logical reason for leaving the EU.

out of interest what was the ecc doing for ireland in the 80's?I see people saying we'd be nowhere without them,but from roughly 1980 to 1995 there wasn't much happening here.Whys that?

Scofflaw

brianthebard wrote: »

out of interest what was the ecc doing for ireland in the 80's?I see people saying we'd be nowhere without them,but from roughly 1980 to 1995 there wasn't much happening here.Whys that?

It was giving us money, but our economic policies were so bad, our governments so corrupt, profligate, and unstable, that it was exactly like giving aid to a third-world banana republic - hence the Boomtown Rats song of the same name.

cordially,
Scofflaw

K-9

brianthebard wrote: »

out of interest what was the ecc doing for ireland in the 80's?I see people saying we'd be nowhere without them,but from roughly 1980 to 1995 there wasn't much happening here.Whys that?

Probably from 73 to 87 there was nothing happening.

Then our own politicians tackled our economy. We can't blame the EU for our failures just as we can't credit the EU for all of our success.

kevteljeur

With all due respect to the OP, we're running in circles here, since we've had this discussion already on a previous thread. Running might even be too generous a word. I somehow doubt that this duplication will give us any clearer answers, although I do wish the Isolationists would give a bit more credit to our elected politicians for any percieved shortcomings of our country. I hope you've all been voting according to your convictions.

Ri na hEireann

The only qualm I have with free speech is that anybody can make a point,which is clearly an outlandish cry for attention, not back it up, but consider it a purposeful and often a factual contribution to a conversation.

Leave the EU....please surely this is a joke?

kevteljeur

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

The only qualm I have with free speech is that anybody can make a point,which is clearly an outlandish cry for attention, not back it up, but consider it a purposeful and often a factual contribution to a conversation.

Leave the EU....please surely this is a joke?

Sadly, this and this and this suggest otherwise. Interestingly there still have been no sound economic arguments in favour of leaving, and suggestions as to how to maintain the economy became increasingly outlandish in those threads. It's worth a quick read, some of the more entertaining but serious suggestions, such as 'militarily retaking Northern Ireland', or suggestions to maintain the economy by trading fish, agricultural produce, gas, oil and jobs with the rest of the world using our native charm to remove trade tariffs, are worth the price of admission.

SimpleSam06

kevteljeur wrote: »

Interestingly there still have been no sound economic arguments in favour of leaving

No one is saying there are economic reasons for leaving. The EU as a trade block has always been a ripping success. Its the political reasons that are starting to overshadow that.

kevteljeur

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

No one is saying there are economic reasons for leaving. The EU as a trade block has always been a ripping success. Its the political reasons that are starting to overshadow that.

Sure, I should have phrased that differently; I didn't mean reasons for leaving, rather how the economy here would be sustained and weighting that against having no further influence on our nearest trading partners.

Having slightly less influence but maintaining our economy versus no influence at all and potentially losing much of what we've built? Seems a clear choice to me... Please keep in mind Norway's 'democracy by fax' situation; that could be us.

SimpleSam06

kevteljeur wrote: »

Having slightly less influence but maintaining our economy versus no influence at all and potentially losing much of what we've built? Seems a clear choice to me... Please keep in mind Norway's 'democracy by fax' situation; that could be us.

I think the idea that seems to be arising in some quarters is that this (little) influence comes with a price, and people are starting to ask if if that price might be too high.

molloyjh

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

I think the idea that seems to be arising in some quarters is that this (little) influence comes with a price, and people are starting to ask if if that price might be too high.

And what exactly is the price?

brianthebard

Seanies32 wrote: »

Probably from 73 to 87 there was nothing happening.

Then our own politicians tackled our economy. We can't blame the EU for our failures just as we can't credit the EU for all of our success.

A lot of people both here and in other debates have sought to praise the EU for the "celtic tiger" yet the EU had nothing to imput when the country was nearly bankrupt in the 80s. Just wondering like.

molloyjh

brianthebard wrote: »

A lot of people both here and in other debates have sought to praise the EU for the "celtic tiger" yet the EU had nothing to imput when the country was nearly bankrupt in the 80s. Just wondering like.

I refer you to Scofflaws post on that matter (in case you missed it!)

Scofflaw wrote: »

It was giving us money, but our economic policies were so bad, our governments so corrupt, profligate, and unstable, that it was exactly like giving aid to a third-world banana republic - hence the Boomtown Rats song of the same name.

cordially,
Scofflaw

O'Morris

Scofflaw wrote: »

our economic policies were so bad

Examples?

sink

O'Morris wrote: »

Examples?

Restrictive tax rates of up to 60% stifled businesses & growth and took more away from the exchequer than it earned. Irresponsibly borrowing a large proportion of GDP which the country could not afford. And a severely overvalued currency destroyed exports, not to mention the political corruption. At the time Ireland was the joke of Europe.

kevteljeur

sink wrote: »

Restrictive tax rates of up to 60% stifled businesses & growth and took more away from the exchequer than it earned. Irresponsibly borrowing a large proportion of GDP which the country could not afford. And a severely overvalued currency destroyed exports, not to mention the political corruption. At the time Ireland was the joke of Europe.

In fact the phrase was, if memory serves me, 'the sick man of Europe'.

K-9

brianthebard wrote: »

A lot of people both here and in other debates have sought to praise the EU for the "celtic tiger" yet the EU had nothing to imput when the country was nearly bankrupt in the 80s. Just wondering like.

That was my exact point! I don't agree they had a massive influence, but important all the same.They had some input to our success at the start. The Structural funds Reynold negotiated in the early 90's was of massive importance to a country that was paying a huge chunk of its income on debt servicing. It just could not have got that kind of money otherwise. After that I think the EU has had a small influence in our economy.


The EU did not have borrowing criteria for member states in the 80's so the EU could not force us to adhere to strict economic criteria as it can now. Basically we got the funds but we completely ran our own economy and we f***ed it up. We also wasted some of our funds.

The IMF were ready to take over our debts as the Govt. was borrowing to pay debt.

There is little chance of that happening now with the criteria on borrowing etc.

So overall, the EU had little influence over our economy in the 70's and 80's other than say, here's the money spend away!