Race-baiting

gogglebok

There is a thread on AH at the moment that makes me queasy, and I'm wondering if anyone else feels the same. It turns on the similarity in sound between "niggard" and "******". It opens with the question "anyone else find black people niggards?" and develops much as you might imagine.

I'm not really interesed in the motives for this. It may be a swipe at PC. It may be something less creditable. At least one of the people on the thread is someone whose posts and politics I normally have great respect for. The point is that, whatever the motives, this thread would be extremely uncomfortable reading for many black people.

A sample post:

"I'm just aching to say that in front of a black person now. 'Jesus, I'm sick of these niggards'."

Is this really how we want to portray ourselves? I can't imagine people saying things like that if there was a black person in the room. If we say them so casually on boards we are painting ourselves as a white community, making jokes among ourselves. (Or something much, much worse.) Is that really kind?

In the short time I've been here I've become very fond of boards, and I appreciate that the moderators do a difficult job sensitively and well, and voluntarily. I've also been wrong about a few things. I may be wrong about this, and I would welcome disagreement.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

typical AH. But does sound a bit over the top even for that forum.

monkeyfudge

It's a potentially an interesting thread.

But it should probably be in the English Language forum instead.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

don't think it is really meant as a linguistics thread though

mike65

Its After Hours - the boards Bear pit!

That thread is about playing with language and probably seeing which use of niggardly will get Dudess to ban a poster.

Mike.

gogglebok

mike65 wrote: »

That thread is about playing with language and probably seeing which use of niggardly will get Dudess to ban a poster.

Regardless of the motives, are you happy with the content of the thread?

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

gogglebok

monkeyfudge wrote: »

It's a potentially an interesting thread.

But it should probably be in the English Language forum instead.

Sure, there are lots of interesting linguistic threads to be had about pejorative words, and about words that sounds like them. There are interesting issues of usage and context and etymology and a dozen other things.

But that's not the direction the thread took, and that's not what it seemed likely from the outset to elicit.

mike65

Its pretty mild - the way I view this sort of thing is being like the message board eqivilent of South Park, Harold and Kumar, Borat etc, its slapstick and easy to take offence at if you approach the thread with the "wrong" frame of mind.

Mike.

Esel

Fuppin' post a link! http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055314867&highlight=niggard

edit: Didn't bother reading the thread, looked up Wikipedia instead. A comment there about 'pinheads' probably picking up and using the term says it all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggard

gogglebok

mike65 wrote: »

Its pretty mild - the way I view this sort of thing is being like the message board eqivilent of South Park, Harold and Kumar, Borat etc, its slapstick and easy to take offence at if you approach the thread with the "wrong" frame of mind.

I have a lot of sympathy with that. The "****** Guy" episode of South park is a masterpiece, in my opinion. But if a white guy put it on in a crowd of strangers that was mainly but not exclusively white, I would feel very uneasy about it.

I also think the intent of that episode is easy to read as satiric, whereas it's hard not to see the AH thread as baiting. "Look, I can say '******' and get away with it!"

It feels wrong to me.

Tigger

its trollish if not deliberatly incitefull

"It was while giving a speech in Washington, to a very international audience, about the British theft of the Elgin marbles from the Parthenon. I described the attitude of the current British authorities as 'niggardly.' Nobody said anything, but I privately resolved—having felt the word hanging in the air a bit—to say 'parsimonious' from then on." [Christopher Hitchens, "The Pernicious Effects of Banning Words," Slate.com, Dec. 4, 2006]

_blank_

Tigger wrote: »

its trollish if not deliberatly incitefull

So is your usernamethen, only one letter different to the "n" word.

STOP OFFENDING ME WITH YORE USERNAME!!!

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

DesF wrote: »

So is your usernamethen, only one letter different to the "n" word.

STOP OFFENDING ME WITH YORE USERNAME!!!

is not amused:

Dudess

I think it's funny - I see it as kinda satirical and a piss-take of both racists and overly PC types. I think any black person who's offended by it would be quite silly really.
As for white people being afraid it's offensive: you can't constantly be tiptoe-ing around everything you deem somehow dodgy.

CuLT

I also think it is funny.

_blank_

Dudess wrote: »

I think any black person who's offended by it would be quite silly really.

Any black person who is offended by it is an absolute braindead moron tbh.

Like that American person ffs.

What if some group decided that "Babbage" was an offensive term, would we no longer be able to eat Cabbage?

That's ridiculous, isn't it? Well so is this "niggardly" thing.

The word is in no way etymologically related to the "n" word, no way at all.

If this is the way Boards is going, then we should start swear-filtering the work "Duck" because it sounds like fúck.

ffs.

Dudess wrote: »

As for white people being afraid it's offensive: you can't constantly be tiptoe-ing around everything you deem somehow dodgy.

Very true.

I'm sick to the back teeth of PC-do-gooders getting offended on behalf of others.

Get a fúcking life you numpty.

copacetic

It's not at all funny, personally I can't believe it was left open. A thread for everyone to try and see how close they can come to calling a black person the n word without actually doing it is just sad.

We aren't racist on boards BUT we do like to have a laught by trying to call black people by names close to the N word if possible.

Even if you allow the thread on its merits and ignore the fact it has an ulterior motive, its still racist as it tries to assign characteristics to all people based on the colour of their skin.

Sherifu

Tigger

DesF wrote: »

So is your usernamethen, only one letter different to the "n" word.

STOP OFFENDING ME WITH YORE USERNAME!!!

i'm not askling if we acn call black peoples tiggers
no need for caps lock i'm sure the nurse will be back soon

Xavi6

That South Park episode is a classic

Tigger

abso-fucking-lutley

Karoma

The Scientist wrote: »

I would have locked it. Bad taste imo...

We don't lock for "bad taste" unless it oversteps an imaginary line.
Where's the line? Buggered if I know; in a case like this, I let the users decide. I've only see two or three reported posts about the thread, all from the same user.
In this instance, I see no malice - insensitivty by the truck load, but no malice. Report posts that cross the line and we'll keep looking.

esel wrote: »

Fuppin' post a link! http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055314867&highlight=niggard

Can we ban esel? He used a naughty-sound-a-like word thing! BAN HEEEEM!

Dinter

The first post is this:

"anybody else find black people niggards? i mean, im from cavan and apparantly we are the most niggardly people according to irish slagging legend. i just happened . . . round of drinks... was it just him or are all black people niggards ?(without wanting to tar an entire race with the same brush!)?"

I would have thought it was pretty obvious it's not a serious or racist thread when in his first post the op puts his own county down.

If you think it sounds familiar to the other "N" word I'd say that unless it's actually mentioned I don't think people should take it upon themselves to think that they somehow know what another posters intentions are.

Also if Dudess is ok with it that's usually a pretty good sign that it's not a pejorative thread!!

Cuddlesworth

DesF wrote: »

If this is the way Boards is going, then we should start swear-filtering the work "Duck" because it sounds like fúck.

Holy Duck!
I'd duck that!
Duck you and your ducking attitude!
Two words, duck off!
You want to duck baby?
I could do with a duck.
Duck that, where the duck am I going to put the ducking thing in?


It could work...

TerrorFirmer

mike65 wrote: »

Its pretty mild - the way I view this sort of thing is being like the message board eqivilent of South Park, Harold and Kumar, Borat etc, its slapstick and easy to take offence at if you approach the thread with the "wrong" frame of mind.

Mike.

Very well said.

gogglebok

Dudess wrote: »

I think it's funny - I see it as kinda satirical and a piss-take of both racists and overly PC types. I think any black person who's offended by it would be quite silly really.

Do you think a black person would be silly to be uncomfortable at the "tar-brush" joke? Or the thread tags "fried chicken, nigggga, spades, and watermelon"?

biko

AH is the forum that brought you "I really hate Roma" about hating a certain spaghetti sauce. Along with the threads entitled "I hate travellers!" (about back-packers), "Too many poles in Dublin" (as in the solid phallic structures), "Send those monkeys back to the jungle" (about actual monkeys and the issue of animals in captivity).
Threads collected by Dudess

justsomebloke

Dinter wrote: »

The first post is this:

"anybody else find black people niggards? i mean, im from cavan and apparantly we are the most niggardly people according to irish slagging legend. i just happened . . . round of drinks... was it just him or are all black people niggards ?(without wanting to tar an entire race with the same brush!)?"

I would have thought it was pretty obvious it's not a serious or racist thread when in his first post the op puts his own county down.

I actually thought it was quite a good play on the PC brigade.

However that said I can't see a difference between this thread and any of the threads where the Roma gypsies are sterotyped as the OP in this thread is asking are all black people stingy feckers

TerrorFirmer

gogglebok wrote: »

Do you think a black person would be silly to be uncomfortable at the "tar-brush" joke? Or the thread tags "fried chicken, nigggga, spades, and watermelon"?

All in all, it's generally OK to poke fun at these stereotypes. In a lot of ways, it's no different to the drunken, red haired Irishman - it never actually offends, even if it can get very tiresome seeing those stereotypes in a lot of American productions. It's just light hearted. If you look at a lot of black comedians, some of their best materials are based around having a laugh at stereotypes. (Chris Rock - how not to get beat up by the police )

Recently enough we were watching Diary of the Dead on a large screen, and there was a bunch of us - in the scene where all the characters ask the black guys for supples one of my friends shouts "Take the guns, just leave the fried chicken and watermelon!"

Stereotypes can be amusing, and playing on such in good humor is not an indication of being racist.

gogglebok

DesF wrote: »

Any black person who is offended by it is an absolute braindead moron tbh.

Like that American person ffs.

What if some group decided that "Babbage" was an offensive term, would we no longer be able to eat Cabbage?

That's ridiculous, isn't it? Well so is this "niggardly" thing.

The word is in no way etymologically related to the "n" word, no way at all.

If this is the way Boards is going, then we should start swear-filtering the work "Duck" because it sounds like fúck.

ffs.

Very true.

I'm sick to the back teeth of PC-do-gooders getting offended on behalf of others.

Get a fúcking life you numpty.

I certainly don't have a problem with swearing, and this is not "the way boards is going". This is one boards user expressing unease, giving reasons, and asking whether others agree or disagree. I had hoped we could talk about this without anger or abuse, and I find your response disheartening.

Your "babbage/cabbage" analogy is faulty. The fact that "******" is an offensive word was not a capricious decision by a group of people. The AH thread is not a discussion of the word "niggard", except insofar as it sounds like ******.

gogglebok

Dinter wrote: »

The first post is this:

"anybody else find black people niggards? i mean, im from cavan and apparantly we are the most niggardly people according to irish slagging legend. i just happened . . . round of drinks... was it just him or are all black people niggards ?(without wanting to tar an entire race with the same brush!)?"

I would have thought it was pretty obvious it's not a serious or racist thread when in his first post the op puts his own county down.

If you think it sounds familiar to the other "N" word I'd say that unless it's actually mentioned I don't think people should take it upon themselves to think that they somehow know what another posters intentions are.

But you've just discussed your reading of the original poster's intentions, so I don't think that's a principle you can seriously espouse.

I didn't want to discuss motives, but I suppose it's inevitable. In this specific case, the mention of Cavan looks to me like a very thin-fig leaf for the ****** pun and the tar-brush joke.

That's not to say that I think anyone on the thread is necessarily a racist. The other option I offered is that it's the kind of pub chat that we have with a bunch of friends, which we wouldn't have if there was a black stranger at the table. If that's the case, it's based on the assumption that only white people are at the table. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Dinter wrote: »

Also if Dudess is ok with it that's usually a pretty good sign that it's not a pejorative thread!!

As I said, there are posters in the AH thread for whom I have the greatest respect.

gogglebok

biko wrote: »

AH is the forum that brought you "I really hate Roma" about hating a certain spaghetti sauce. Along with the threads entitled "I hate travellers!" (about back-packers), "Too many poles in Dublin" (as in the solid phallic structures), "Send those monkeys back to the jungle" (about actual monkeys and the issue of animals in captivity).
Threads collected by Dudess

If I was in England and a lot of people had a conversation about how much they hated Paddies, it wouldn't really placate me if they threw in a few rice references.

But as I pointed out in my original post, I'm pretty new here. I may be misreading the culture. My unease with the AH thread (and very possibly those others, if I'd seen them) may put me in a minority.

Rb

DesF wrote: »

I'm sick to the back teeth of PC-do-gooders getting offended on behalf of others.

Agreed.

Seriously, wtf? Do people not have other things in life to be concerned about? is this some kick back from the Celtic Tiger, that most things in peoples lives seem to be going ok so they have to find other things to get annoyed about (in Ireland anyway?)

From what I can see, it's mainly middle class people who are these PC do-gooders, which would sincerely suggest that the above is true, that they simply don't have anything else to moan about.

I could almost bet that the OP is a white, middle class person. There's black people (or at least 1) on Boards who don't seem to give a shíte about that thread.

gogglebok

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

All in all, it's generally OK to poke fun at these stereotypes. In a lot of ways, it's no different to the drunken, red haired Irishman - it never actually offends, even if it can get very tiresome seeing those stereotypes in a lot of American productions. It's just light hearted. If you look at a lot of black comedians, some of their best materials are based around having a laugh at stereotypes. (Chris Rock - how not to get beat up by the police )

Recently enough we were watching Diary of the Dead on a large screen, and there was a bunch of us - in the scene where all the characters ask the black guys for supples one of my friends shouts "Take the guns, just leave the fried chicken and watermelon!"

Stereotypes can be amusing, and playing on such in good humor is not an indication of being racist.

I'm all for freedom in comedy, but I don't think it's accurate to say that these stereotypes never offend or hurt people. From one of my favourite songs:

I'm sick of watching them break up
Every time some bird brain puts us down
Making jokes on the radio....

I'm also not saying that race jokes can't be funny. Some of them plainly are. I think the moral question is one of context, not content. I know some cracking paedophile jokes, but I'm not going to tell them at One In Four's next AGM. Would your friend have made the watermelon joke if he was sitting beside a black person?

The consensus here seems to be that AH is the kind of context where race jokes are OK, and people are generally happy with that. Is that a fair summary?

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

_blank_

gogglebok wrote: »

I know some cracking paedophile jokes, but I'm not going to tell them at One In Four's next AGM. Would your friend have made the watermelon joke if he was sitting beside a black person?

Erm, AH isn't a Black Panther's rally, so your little One In Four illustration is way wide of the mark, imo.

gogglebok

Rb wrote: »

Seriously, wtf? Do people not have other things in life to be concerned about? is this some kick back from the Celtic Tiger, that most things in peoples lives seem to be going ok so they have to find other things to get annoyed about (in Ireland anyway?)

I'm not annoyed, and have never suggested I was. I am curious to see your scale of "things in life to be concerned about", though. My post was apparently not worth making, but is worth deploring. How does that work? Have I added to the sum of human seriousness?

That's a lot more than I expected from the day when I rolled out of my bunk at PC Brigade Headquarters, saluted the carefully non-denominational flag, and set about the overthrow of all free speech.

copacetic

DesF wrote: »

Erm, AH isn't a Black Panther's rally, so your little One In Four illustration is way wide of the mark, imo.

ffs Des, equating one in four with the black panthers is a lot further off the mark that his attempt. We seem to be basically saying that it is grand because as far as we know no-one who is black has complained. If they do we will just tell them they are being a 'bit silly' and to run along now and stop being so niggardly and have a little laugh in our sleeves.

gogglebok

DesF wrote: »

Erm, AH isn't a Black Panther's rally, so your little One In Four illustration is way wide of the mark, imo.

And a Black Panther's rally isn't the only place people get upset about the use of the word ******. But I don't want to draw you into a game of analogy ping pong. All I'm saying is that certain jokes are inappropriate in certain contexts, regardless of the quality of the joke.

I've said several times here that I'm fairly new here and am trying to feel my way into the culture. That's why I'm asking questions, not striking positions or making accusations.

That's also why I think "Get a fúcking life you numpty" was a bit off.

_blank_

gogglebok wrote: »

That's also why I think "Get a fúcking life you numpty" was a bit off.

Ah ok, that.

It wasn't directed specifically at you.

It was direted at

PC-do-gooders getting offended on behalf of others.

Dinter

gogglebok wrote: »

I'm all for freedom in comedy, but I don't think it's accurate to say that these stereotypes never offend or hurt people. From one of my favourite songs:

I'm also not saying that race jokes can't be funny. Some of them plainly are.

I thought the whole issue was that people were saying niggardly as a pointed reference to *******.

Now you're saying that the issue is that black people are being called stingy??

Is it racist to use a similar word to ****** or is it racist to say black people are mean? It obviously can't be both, or can it or what exactly is this argument about. I'm actually confusing myself at this point.

Still it seems to be a bit of a tautology either way.

_blank_

Dinter wrote: »

Still it seems to be a bit of a tautology either way.

That's fairly offensive to tautologists.

gogglebok

DesF wrote: »

Ah ok, that.

It wasn't directed specifically at you.

Come off it, Des. It was a reply to my post. It was directed at me.

_blank_

gogglebok wrote: »

Come off it, Des. It was a reply to my post. It was directed at me.

Seriously, it wasn't.

It was directed at people who get offended on other people's behalf.

Give the full quote, in context.

Very true.

I'm sick to the back teeth of PC-do-gooders getting offended on behalf of others.

Get a fúcking life you numpty.

gogglebok

Dinter wrote: »

Now you're saying that the issue is that black people are being called stingy??

God, no. That couldn't further be from what I'm saying if it was swimming in the opposite direction with a jet-pack sticking out of its ass.

My concern about the thread is that it comes across as a thinly-veiled excuse to be use the word "******". The "stinginess" thing is a red herring, introduced in the first post. That wasn't seriously suggesting that black people are mean, and nobody took it to be. It was making a joke about calling black people a word that sounds like ******.

Can I ask a question that might simplify things? Why is the word "spades" one of the thread tags?

copacetic

Dinter wrote: »

I thought the whole issue was that people were saying niggardly as a pointed reference to *******.

Now you're saying that the issue is that black people are being called stingy??

Is it racist to use a similar word to ****** or is it racist to say black people are mean? It obviously can't be both, or can it or what exactly is this argument about. I'm actually confusing myself at this point.

Still it seems to be a bit of a tautology either way.

I think the point was that it is clearly meant to liken niggardly to the N word, but even if you ignore that (which the mods seem to be doing), the thread is still racist. So the thread is racist both ways.

Even the OP admitted he was trying to take a shot at the PC brigade on the first page ( by trying to post a racist thread that he would be let away with apparently).

biko

gogglebok wrote: »

But as I pointed out in my original post, I'm pretty new here. I may be misreading the culture. My unease with the AH thread (and very possibly those others, if I'd seen them) may put me in a minority.

Don't worry. As you say, you're new. AH takes a bit getting used to.
It is quite heavily moderated by AH mods who know the forum well and usually make the right decisions. Besides them are Cmods and Smods that can step in to help out. Finally there are ordinary posters that report posts to bring them to the mods' attention, using the button.

In time you'll be as cynical and sarcastic as the rest of us Btw take time to explore the rest of the site. It's much better/helpful outside AH I promise.

Dinter

DesF wrote: »

Seriously, it wasn't.

It was directed at people who get offended on other people's behalf.

Give the full quote, in context.

We could always start another thread now to see whether your comment was putting particular emphasis on particular pc do-gooders or whether it was a general comment on all pc do-gooders.

Then another thread to decide whether googlebok is a pc dogooder and if so, is it as one of the pc dogooders you referred to originally or the group your comment could have referred to if that was actually decided one way or the other in the first thread.

Then we would probably need another thread to decide if do gooders should be referred to as this or is it a stereotype. If it is a stereotype is it accurate or perjorative.

Sprinkle a few polls in and we'll soon have taken over all of feedback and be hammering at the door of the Thuinderdome!!

gogglebok

biko wrote: »

In time you'll be as cynical and sarcastic as the rest of us Btw take time to explore the rest of the site. It's much better/helpful outside AH I promise.

Ah yes, I'm looking forward to my crabbed decline.

Seriously, I really enjoy the whole place. Boards is a stone-cold guarantee that I will have the least productive summer ever. I mean that as a good thing. The fact that it's moderated on an unpaid basis is just admirable. It sounds like a gargantuan workload, and if I had to carry it I would bitch about it from dawn till dusk.

Terry

Hi.
Someone thought it would be funny to label black people as stingy by using a word that resembles the n word.

It's really not worth your while getting upset by something like this.

Just get drunk and enjoy the show.
That's what works for me.

Bye.


Hi again.
The tags have been edited.
Bye.