Bio based foam insulation

danyosan

Anyone any experience with this product?

Basically I'm looking into different methods of retro insulating a dormer bungalow, and I have been led to believe that pumped foam would be the way to go, and I came across this stuff.

Any help, tips, ideas welcome.

danyosan

Surely someone has some opinion on this. All I seem to be able to find on boards is talk of the bead insulation.

sydthebeat

as far as i know theres no certified system over here..

therfore no cert = dont use.

Chimpster

sydthebeat wrote: »

as far as i know theres no certified system over here..

therfore no cert = dont use.

I've been told they will have certification in Sept but until I see it I would hold off.

The risks are the 'breathability' of the material. There is a risk of your timbers rotting if this material doesnt breath sufficently.

danyosan

So would the bead insulation be the way to go? Its for a retro fit to an existing building.

sydthebeat

bead or fibre... my preference would be fibre..

see rockwool energy saver

danyosan

sydthebeat wrote: »

bead or fibre... my preference would be fibre..

see rockwool energy saver

cheers

spadder

Foam has been used in the states for the last twenty years with no major problems.



Like any insulation if you put it in the wrong place it will cause problems.

sydthebeat

spadder wrote: »

Foam has been used in the states for the last twenty years with no major problems.



Like any insulation if you put it in the wrong place it will cause problems.

Ireland is not the states, we have different climatic features and regulations.

spadder

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ireland is not the states, we have different climatic features and regulations.

agreed, Norhtern US has much harsher winters and temp variations.

I have seen foam in place in the US, it is much better than fibreglass or beaded insulations Imho.

RKQ

Retro fit is fine as your choices are limited.
No certificate no use, don't risk an untested product!

Understand it has been used in US but do they have our wind driven rain?

Lots of products that work fine in USA are totally unsuitable here!
I'd rather use a tested material, with an Irish certificate, that has been sucessfully used in Ireland or even Wales / Scotland etc.
Something thats been used 10 or 20 years, without a problem.

Its easy to put it in the cavity but impossible to remove!

spadder

RKQ wrote: »

Understand it has been used in US but do they have our wind driven rain?

They might have seen a small bit:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhUST6b6qNg&feature=related

RKQ

Long damp winter with consistent wind driven rain is hardly the same as a tornado!

They have tornados in the Caribbean also and use corrugated metal roof. Would you suggest uninsulated corrugated metal roof in Ireland would be ok!

They use igloo in the North pole would you suggest that construction too?



They build beautiful mud huts in Africa with straw roof.


Homebond are very careful to test all foreign construction methods in Ireland, in Irish conditions, to ensure they work in Ireland.


The fact remains it is untested and uncertified for use in Ireland.

spadder

The construction methods you mentioned are because of economic and local resource factors. We had many a house with corrugated metal roofs before the celtic tiger. Do you remember the Bull Mccabe promoting the virtues of a metal roof in " The field"?



I know from seeing the foam in action (in the US) it is a better solution. Fibreglass has to be one of the nastiest materials to bring into your house and work with.

http://www.asbestos-institute.ca/newsletters/nl-95-2/nl-95-2(part1).html


I understand this is a relatively new technology in Ireland, but I would have no problems using it in my house once ventilation issues are observed.

sydthebeat

spadder wrote: »

The construction methods you mentioned are because of economic and local resource factors. We had many a house with corrugated metal roofs before the celtic tiger.



I know from seeing the foam in action (in the US) it is a better solution. Fibreglass has to be one of the nastiest materials to bring into your house and work with.

http://www.asbestos-institute.ca/newsletters/nl-95-2/nl-95-2(part1).html


I understand this is a relatively new technology in Ireland, but I would have no problems using it in my house once ventilation issues are observed.

that article in the link is highly biased.

if you want to use it go ahead, but the OP came on asking for advise. The best advise is no certification equals no use.. .simple as.

Take for example if this was a new build and a BER assessment was done on it..... that insulation would have to be ignored completely.... no certification means it cant be included in calculations.

spadder

I understand it does not have homebond approval etc. As you metioned the OP was looking for advice,
I have seen it in use and I think it is an excellent system regardless of what Homebond think.

If it was my house i would'nt care about the BER rating, it's the Gas bill I am trying to reduce.

with regards to the fibreglass article, Google it yourself. I know from working with fibreglass it is a horrible material.

cheers
S

sydthebeat

spadder wrote: »

I understand it does not have homebond approval etc. As you metioned the OP was looking for advice,
I have seen it in use and I think it is an excellent system regardless of what Homebond think.

If it was my house i would'nt care about the BER rating, it's the Gas bill I am trying to reduce.

with regards to the fibreglass article, Google it yourself. I know from working with fibreglass it is a horrible material.

cheers
S

I always specify rockwool myself, because of its fire performance.

Im not talking about Homebond approval, im talking about IAB, BBA or relevant european standards that need to be met.

Having seen it in use does not determine its suitablility of performance over a 50 year lifespan. Testing under lab conditions does.

Spadder, im not questioning this product, i personally like the theory behind it, however as a professional i must act accordingly and couldnt advise someone as to the suitability of a product that hasnt been certified for the use its supposed to do. They claim a thermal conductivity valu eof 0.036 which is cloe enough to rockwool... as rockwool is certified, given a choice, i could only specify that ahead of teh soy based insulation.

spadder

Syd, What do you think of Hemp?

(not as a narcotic, but insulation)

sydthebeat

spadder wrote: »

Syd, What do you think of Hemp?

(not as a narcotic, but insulation)

lol... couldve got in trouble there!

Hemp is an excellent product. not only for its insulative properties, but also its ecological properties... it can actual absorb a lot of co2 over its lifetime.
the only negative points about it is you need greather thicknesses to match the insulation levels of say, PU or PIR..... also th eprice is a bit restrictive at the moment.

But if your serious about the green route, then definitely.

John mac

I always specify rockwool myself, because of its fire performance.

just had a look and there is no mention of Rockwool here! (on the latest list)

http://www.nsai.ie/index.cfm/area/page/information/CertProdInstal

plenty of yellow and white wool though. is it the same product just by a different manufacturer?

It seems to have been replaced, as it is mentioned on a few previous lists.

sydthebeat

http://www.greenspec.co.uk/html/product-pages/rockwoolenergy.php

John mac

yea i know its approved in England
but i was just pointing out that there are no approved Irish installers at the moment.
(I would like to get a quote from one) based on a few recommendations i have seen here.

there was on previous directories from the iab site.

danyosan

John mac wrote: »

just had a look and there is no mention of Rockwool here! (on the latest list)

http://www.nsai.ie/index.cfm/area/page/information/CertProdInstal

plenty of yellow and white wool though. is it the same product just by a different manufacturer?

It seems to have been replaced, as it is mentioned on a few previous lists.

Just did a cross reference there for installers. First one I checked from the rockwool website, also appears on the nsai list, although on the list it states instafibre white and yellow wool.

EyeOnTheBall

My brother got the roof rafters of his 150 year old cottage insulated with Biobased foam. They're relatively new here. If it's the same one you're thinking about it's soya based also. His was a retro fit (obviously). I know he was very, very impressed with it. He had asked about the condensation worries of an airtight house and was told that a good heat recovery ventilation system solves that. It does make sense, if your house is airtight, then you need some sort of ventilation to stop condensation (!!). He did say it was dearer than other insulations he had been looking at, but apparently when a house is airtight, it saves money on heating etc. He's a shrewd sod, so if he went with it then I suspect it's got to be okay. I'll be building a house next year and I'll be looking at putting it in.

gman2k

I've installed the soya based insulation in my new build timber frame house, and the job is spot on.
I've yet to be made happy regarding certification, but I've been promised that it's on it's way in the very near future.
PS the certification process is nothing less than a money racket, and anyone who tells you different doesn't know better. I know a good few manufacturers who've had hell over this. If you pays your money, you gets your cert (if the product is ok of course)
I'm not knocking the poster above re certification - far from it.
The other benefit of the soy based insulation is that it forms an airtight envelope (you still have to seal up elsewhere). I've done an airtight package, and installed a mech heat recovery ventilation system also.
If anybody wants to, they can come look at my build in the SE (at the weekends) just pm me.
I'll post again regarding certs...

sydthebeat

gman2k wrote: »

I've installed the soya based insulation in my new build timber frame house, and the job is spot on.
I've yet to be made happy regarding certification, but I've been promised that it's on it's way in the very near future.
PS the certification process is nothing less than a money racket, and anyone who tells you different doesn't know better. I know a good few manufacturers who've had hell over this. If you pays your money, you gets your cert (if the product is ok of course)
I'm not knocking the poster above re certification - far from it.
The other benefit of the soy based insulation is that it forms an airtight envelope (you still have to seal up elsewhere). I've done an airtight package, and installed a mech heat recovery ventilation system also.
If anybody wants to, they can come look at my build in the SE (at the weekends) just pm me.
I'll post again regarding certs...

certification matters a lot!

Firstly, if a new build TF uses a non-accredited product (ie if it doesn't have a certification that complies with TGD D) then that product HAS TO BE IGNORED from the calculations when assessing the Building Energy Rating of the dwelling. Imagine someone paying 10K to insulate their new build and then an assessor telling them that they only get a G rating because they have to ignore the product...!!!

Secondly, the same situation applies to 'certification in compliance with building regs'. If the product isn't certified with a cert recognised as part of TGD D, then the building cannot be certified To be in compliance with building regs.... and if any professional does certify it, then more fool them.

thirdly, certification is the consumers way of getting a guarantee that the product 'does what it says on the tin'. Without proper certification theres no proof that a product does what it claims... ie multifoils first came out saying they equated to 200mm of quilted insulation... that was quickly show to be balderdash when they applied for certification!!

Fourthly, if a company want to sell their product on the Irish market, then they should have no problem putting it to scrutiny to prove it works in the Irish climate and conditions. Yes, of course you have to pay for this. But if you don't, then do not expect an easy ride from professionals who have to deal with these products as part of their work.

gman2k

Thanks sydthebeat,

I spoke to my BER assessor, and he felt it was not as clear cut as you made out, but he is going to contact the SEI helpdesk regarding lack of certification.

Speaking to the insulation supplier, they are working hard at the moment sorting out accreditation with the BRE. He stated that the certification is expected in Oct 08.

sydthebeat

gman2k wrote: »

Thanks sydthebeat,

I spoke to my BER assessor, and he felt it was not as clear cut as you made out, but he is going to contact the SEI helpdesk regarding lack of certification.

Speaking to the insulation supplier, they are working hard at the moment sorting out accreditation with the BRE. He stated that the certification is expected in Oct 08.

Thats my understanding of the process anyway, im open for clarification... perhaps other here can shed some light??

sinnerboy

Page 3 Item B3 of this document below defines what "proper materials" are .

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1643,en.pdf

For how to calculate U Values - and what EN tests are relevant look here

http://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/rpts/uvalue/BR_443_(2006_Edition).pdf

How products are to be tested - specifically insulation products - see pages 37 + 38

I have looked some info published on a "naturally derived spray foam" - (forum rules forbid me to name names)

The product has "been in use" since 2003 - not long enough to establish a track record to show that by covering structural timbers with the foam - that the timbers do not subsequently rot . The OP query - "Anyone any experience with this product?" - the answer is not many people have - anywhere . It is a new product .

Statement that a lambda value of 0.036 "may be used" ( about the same as fibreglass ) - but no mention of how - in EN testing terms - this value is determined

Statement that surface Spread of flame class C1 was acheived "when tested" - but the EN test is not mentioned

Vapour resistance - values are stated - again with out reference to EN testing

To be fair - There is a statement that in March 07 European certification was applied for - results pending . The product may be fine ...... BUT as of TODAY , without

- a long track record of demonstrated success - IN IRELAND
- EN Certification / CE label
- IAB or BBA certification

I would not use it .

sinnerboy

gman2k wrote: »

I spoke to my BER assessor, and he felt it was not as clear cut as you made out, but he is going to contact the SEI helpdesk regarding lack of certification.

Please keep us up to speed with SEI response

gman2k wrote: »

Speaking to the insulation supplier, they are working hard at the moment sorting out accreditation with the BRE. He stated that the certification is expected in Oct 08.

And keep us up to date with this too please


Don't want to unfairly knock what may be a great product .
Just , as Syd said , multi foils "took a lot of people in" - only to disappoint

.

EyeOnTheBall

sinnerboy wrote: »

Page 3 Item B3 of this document below defines what "proper materials" are .

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1643,en.pdf

For how to calculate U Values - and what EN tests are relevant look here

http://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/rpts/uvalue/BR_443_(2006_Edition).pdf

How products are to be tested - specifically insulation products - see pages 37 + 38

I have looked some info published on a "naturally derived spray foam" - (forum rules forbid me to name names)

The product has "been in use" since 2003 - not long enough to establish a track record to show that by covering structural timbers with the foam - that the timbers do not subsequently rot . The OP query - "Anyone any experience with this product?" - the answer is not many people have - anywhere . It is a new product .

Statement that a lambda value of 0.036 "may be used" ( about the same as fibreglass ) - but no mention of how - in EN testing terms - this value is determined

Statement that surface Spread of flame class C1 was acheived "when tested" - but the EN test is not mentioned

Vapour resistance - values are stated - again with out reference to EN testing

To be fair - There is a statement that in March 07 European certification was applied for - results pending . The product may be fine ...... BUT as of TODAY , without

- a long track record of demonstrated success - IN IRELAND
- EN Certification / CE label
- IAB or BBA certification

I would not use it .

To Sinnerboy:
The old tale that's going around about spray foam 'rotting' attics comes from applicators in the UK who put on a closed cell insulation without allowing for breathability. That was just plain product ignorance and lack of adequate training.
It seems they didn't read the instructions on the barrel and ruined it......just like they did with their pints of Guinness!