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Classification Query
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We probably should put those classification lists up on the NTSA website, y'know...
:eek:
Hold on now while I find that email where I asked you to set that up for me.....
Ah, here it is....
05/11/07
Mark
I was wondering if it were possible to add a link on the right hand side of the webpage under Agenda and Upcoming Events for the classification list? Rather than sending it out by email, this would make it a lot more accessible.
It's in pdf format, so it would be easy for everyone to read.
Oops
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It was a bit low, but then again, you've not mentioned that since then I've changed jobs twice and had to totally strip out the WTSC website and rebuild it thanks to some nice lads from Russia who hacked the site every other day for a fortnight (they weren't quite as bad as the ones who hacked it and redirected it to a militant, death-to-america style jihadist site :eek: ).
It's not like I'm slacking off over here y'know 0 -
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It was a bit low, but then again, you've not mentioned that since then I've changed jobs twice and had to totally strip out the WTSC website and rebuild it thanks to some nice lads from Russia who hacked the site every other day for a fortnight (they weren't quite as bad as the ones who hacked it and redirected it to a militant, death-to-america style jihadist site :eek: ).
It's not like I'm slacking off over here y'know
Y'know I'd be a lot more sympathetic if you weren't given to telling people that I was
Sorry, sense of humour overload again. I'm away on hols next week, and with a Nationals being held, finishing only 14 hours before I fly out I'm getting a little hysterical. :rolleyes:0 -
I know, it's not an easy problem to solve. The only issue I have is that the classification seems to be "rank the shooters, then split roughly into four parts". If someone inactive is hogging some "slots" in a higher class then is it fair to let them prevent someone from a lower class progress?
That's not quite how it works Conor. First of all I try and maintain a cut-off. I'm very loath to change them unless it's upwards.
Secondly, the hoggers in class A got there by shooting good scores. There's only one person who has maintained a position in class A with only one competitive outing, but no surprises when he hit the required score at his next appearance.
Others have been in and out depending on their record (me included). You unfortunately started going well after the last indoor shoot, but being in B is absolutely no bar to future success nor is it a bar for international selection. That's done purely on qualifying score in a selection match.
So keep collecting the glassware until September
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Ideally, you win the class before you get promoted, but that's not always possible when you get banditas from DURC jumping straight into class B or A on their first competitive outing.
It's not our fault that we have talented shooters who make an effort to train!In the end, so long as it's fair and transparent, there's not a whole lot that would make it fairer or more transparent.At least I can get the classifications out the day after a match.
I do appreciate that. It wasn't too long ago that I'd turn up to a match and ask "what class am I in?" and have the response "I dunno, what class are you supposed to be in?"0 -
Deleted User wrote: »RRPC - its great that you got the Fermoy shoot on but given that;
the majority of shooters are based in teh Dublin / Wicklow area, holding a match on in say, Balbriggan, would have probably have had a better result in terms of numbers.
Sorry Zaraba, missed your post there (must have had my peril sensitive sunglasses on)
Chicken and egg is right. We can't tell people to hold shoots, they decide for themselves. The issue about the DURC shoot is before my time, so in the age old way of politicians, I'll kick to touch on that one.
I take your point about the geographic location of shoots, but on the other hand if you were one of the few shooters in Dublin and all the shoots were in Munster, what would you say then?
We can't be seen (nor should we want) to implement a system of apartheid. The club makes the effort, we support the effort, the club grows, our sport growas and everyone benefits.
Everything in your first sentence is actually wrong at the moment and I've posted and said so here. Scores are going up, numbers are going up and competition is on the increase.I get really angry hearing people in the NTSA saying that 'scores are going down and matches are going down, but what can we do?'
Its the NTSA's job to try and fix this. I heard a lot of very, very good suggestions in a meeting in UCD two years ago and haven't seen any of them implemented appart from raising the qualifying score (which I agree with).
In the last twelve months, the number of people scoring above 570 has increased from 31% to 45% of the total and the total has increased by 34%.
Why is this happening? I believe that it has a lot to do with what I said in the last paragraph about supporting each other to grow the sport. We are doing everything we can to bring the people in the outlying clubs into the centre so that they can be allowed grow in the sport. If that means that we travel to Fermoy or Tullamore to support their matches, then that's what we do.
I think Sparks answered this. The squad system is still being worked on and I'm still not sure what value it has when you're talking about an active population of 40. Ideally that's your extended squad right there and when the lads have finished their NCTC score (you forgot Ray, Sparks) we'll see the coaching going around.Where are the squad shoots gone? Where are the regional level coaches?
Zaraba. You have to get these shooters out to matches to get them involved in the sport. There are obvious logistical problems, but we need to hear them to come up with solutions... together.When I was captain in DURC I was talking to the NSTA and saying that I have around 100 shooters who are reasonable plinkers and a very large number of air rifle shooters who were competitive shooters. I was asking was there anything the NTSA could do to help them - any plans for junior squad etc.
It has to be a two-way street otherwise there's no investment from either side of the equation.
If 100 air rifle shooters turned up to the Nationals, Geoff would think he'd died and gone to heavenNow you can sit there and say 'what can we do', but when every shooter in our squad new the name of one club, and was greatful to that club for help and supprt, and where asking who the hell are the NTSA, that shows that something isn't quite right
Sorry for having a go but that really pissed me off at the time and is one of the reasons why I haven't been around for the last while (before the exam revision started)
You know where I am Zaraba, I don't think any problem is insurmountable, provided everyone is willing to put their shoulder to the wheel.0 -
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Sorry Zaraba, missed your post there (must have had my peril sensitive sunglasses on)
Gotta get me a pair of those!Chicken and egg is right. We can't tell people to hold shoots, they decide for themselves. The issue about the DURC shoot is before my time, so in the age old way of politicians, I'll kick to touch on that one.
Grand - before my time as well, I just dug out all the correspondence recently.I take your point about the geographic location of shoots, but on the other hand if you were one of the few shooters in Dublin and all the shoots were in Munster, what would you say then?
We can't be seen (nor should we want) to implement a system of apartheid. The club makes the effort, we support the effort, the club grows, our sport growas and everyone benefits.
I think its great that you got it done. However, for myself (and many of the regulars) getting to Fermoy is practically impossible as we can barely get enough cars to get to WTSC or DRC on a good day.Everything in your first sentence is actually wrong at the moment and I've posted and said so here. Scores are going up, numbers are going up and competition is on the increase.
In the last twelve months, the number of people scoring above 570 has increased from 31% to 45% of the total and the total has increased by 34%.
Can you post up the number of air and .22 matches for the past 4 years?
They have picked up recently allright, but (it feels like) air is down quite a bit from 2004/2005Why is this happening? I believe that it has a lot to do with what I said in the last paragraph about supporting each other to grow the sport. We are doing everything we can to bring the people in the outlying clubs into the centre so that they can be allowed grow in the sport. If that means that we travel to Fermoy or Tullamore to support their matches, then that's what we do.
And that is very good - however, as I said before. There are a lot of us who can't travel that far.I think Sparks answered this. The squad system is still being worked on and I'm still not sure what value it has when you're talking about an active population of 40. Ideally that's your extended squad right there and when the lads have finished their NCTC score (you forgot Ray, Sparks) we'll see the coaching going around.
Personally, this is one of the biggest failings that I have seen in the NTSA.
When I started there was a training on once every month in UCD for air.
That gave a focus for each of your training sessions, you got coaching from an independent coach* and it gave people like me a chance to see people like Richy and Declan training. I learned 75% of what I know today from those few sessions.
RRPC - this is an issue I have heard the shooters ask for again, again and again.
*Lets not get into the good/bad of this coach. Personally, I learned quite a lot from him.Zaraba. You have to get these shooters out to matches to get them involved in the sport. There are obvious logistical problems, but we need to hear them to come up with solutions... together.
I was told pretty much to get lost as soon as I started brining this up. these shooters went to matches, and we suffered the usual high drop out rate.
However, I started asking around for advice and help and the only place I got it from was the aforementioned air rifle club.It has to be a two-way street otherwise there's no investment from either side of the equation.
Investment was lacking from the other side when I tried that approach.
RRPC - have a chat with me on Sunday about some of the responses I've gotten in the past.You know where I am Zaraba, I don't think any problem is insurmountable, provided everyone is willing to put their shoulder to the wheel.
RRPC - I put my shoulder up during my year as captain, and got **** all but a headache as a result back.
You are right - we have talent, we have people and there is will. It just doesn't seem to work out.0 -
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Didn't forget Ray, he couldn't get the time off to do the NCTC course so he's not allowed to give the course under the NCTC rules (or at least not all of it). He's put a lot of work into the back end with Matt and Geoff, putting together the course syllabus, it's just that we were talking about when it'd be delivered.when the lads have finished their NCTC score (you forgot Ray, Sparks) we'll see the coaching going around.
The best results we've had there have come from the solutions that were at the lowest level - ie, talk to them. The lack of information is a killer here - I mean, I was a member of DURC for four years before I learnt even that there were other clubs in the country and that there were competitions against them, simply because noone told me about them and we had no website or anything where I could go look - you cannot overestimate how important it is to push information out there. Newbies are often reluctant to go chase the information. You have to grab them, talk to them about matches, tell them what they're like, lay out exactly, down to the minute and cent and point what level of shooting they need to be at to go, when people are going, what's involved, how much it costs, what the craic is like, all of that.It wasn't me! wrote: »Hard to see how you get those people to turn up and compete though really
Incidentally, are shooters told about this place or the other websites these days when they join the club? Should I stick those URLs into the membership leaflet for next year?
Actually, if that's the deregistered DURC air open, noone stopped it from being run, it was just judged afterwards that it wasn't run well enough for the scores to count towards national averages (and it was a shambles, we were using the Luce hall gym and the pony club boxes and the tension in the lines kept pulling the tables towards the boxes and they kept having to stop the match to fix it and pick up the cards that fell off as a result).Deleted User wrote: »Grand - before my time as well, I just dug out all the correspondence recently.
It is, but it's always run in cycles. We're in a slump at the moment - right as most of the high scorers for the past few years hit the leaving cert and college, which is not a coincidence I think. And look a the scores - for a slump year, this is pretty good. There is progress from where we were.They have picked up recently allright, but (it feels like) air is down quite a bit from 2004/2005
I really can't agree with that.Personally, this is one of the biggest failings that I have seen in the NTSA.
When I started there was a training on once every month in UCD for air.
That gave a focus for each of your training sessions, you got coaching from an independent coach* and it gave people like me a chance to see people like Richy and Declan training. I learned 75% of what I know today from those few sessions.
*Lets not get into the good/bad of this coach. Personally, I learned quite a lot from him.
The problem was that those sessions were only good if you weren't past 520ish or were over 570ish in air rifle (or the equivalent in smallbore). Every one of the shooters who were in the middle range and looking to progress couldn't do so and didn't do so. At least not because of those training sessions. And the high-level shooters all said the same thing to me at some point or other over the years that those sessions were running. And it's not because Barry was bad, or Jock before him or Barry again before that. It was because you cannot fix a major fundamental problem - ie, we had no competitive coaching at all - by bringing in an outside expert for one and a half days a month. Coaches need to see their shooters to progress them in that range of scores. They need to work on training plans and see them shoot under stress in matches and a dozen other things that Barry simply couldn't do because he wasn't there all the time. He said so himself so often I lost count. That was the problem, despite all the ****e that was said about what the "real problem" was by some rather viciously small-minded people at the time. Coaching is a personal, one-on-one sort of thing. It's dependant on a lot of trust in the coach and trust in the shooter and time spent working together. This "get an expert in" idea has been tried, and the inverse (going to an expert for a weekend a month or doing it remotely) has also been tried. Both approaches simply failed.
That's not to say training camps don't work, by the way. Those are a wholly seperate kettle of fish. I've done the training camp thing in Kuortane with the guys winning the medals, and it was a magnificent experience and worth every minute, but it would have been useless to me if I hadn't had Matt and Geoff back home to work with. Training camps are an additional training tool, that's all.
What we need is a coach in every club. Look to N.Ireland - their commonwealth team cleared up all round them thanks to them having a local coach (and that the NTSA hasn't sent him to get ISSF-certified is a failing that ought to be rectified to be honest). That's the whole point of the coaches course - to get volunteers from every NTSA club to train to be coaches, with domestic coach tutors. That way, every club can train teams with properly accredited coaches (and probably get local sports partnership funding to help if they play their cards right).
Once that's been running for a while, and we have people training regularly again, then we had a plan on paper to bring back the national coaching again, with a different structure (domestic coaches again, ISSF-certified, seminars like we were running with guest speakers and so forth on things like sports nutrition, training techniques and so on, and technical training and training plans and so on). But the domestic coaches course has to be done first.
There are things that are broken and need to be fixed. That's a given. But other things are actually in pretty damn good shape, or are set to go but are waiting on things. The main problem I can see is that noone knows this because communications are not great.You are right - we have talent, we have people and there is will. It just doesn't seem to work out.
Which is actually a bit depressing because that's precisely how it was a decade ago as well
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