Abortion from a Atheist viewpoint

Galvasean

This was brought up in another thread. Rather than veer way off topic I felt this could use a thread of its own.
There's a poll. It's public so people will be able to see what you voted for. I do this (much like my poll in the Christianity forum) so people the poll is not aimed do not skew the results.
People of religious faith feel free to join the discussion, but please refrain from voting.

iUseVi

I am against abortion entirely

I voted pro-choice. I would be interested in your reasoning Galvasean. Do you think the foetus suffers in most cases?

Whilst I am pro-choice I do think there needs to be continued scientific study to see what foetuses can feel at certain stages of development. I don't think it's black and white.

Tar.Aldarion

I am against abortion except for in cases of rape

Nothing fits with my opinion in that pole. I am against abortion along with rape cases. In life threatening instances and so on a case can be made. If you believe a foetus is a human and is a life I don't think it should be punished for the crimes of it's father.

Galvasean

I am against abortion except for in cases of rape and also incest

Hmmm, it would seem the poll is not public. I could have sworn the box was ticked...

Onward. On the topic of the foetus suffering it seems likely that a foetus can feel pain from fairly early stages. Since most abortions are carried out after said stages it looks likely that suffering occurs. Although i also agre that we need to do more research on this topic.
As I voted that I will only condone abortion after rape has occurred (assuming this can be proven too, so people don't yell rape every time they were careless win the bedroom) I should explain my position. If a woman has had to go through the trauma of being raped one can only imagine the stress of pregnancy would be detrimental to her mental health. Also, giving birth to the offspring of one's rapist would, I can only imagine, be very traumatic.

Hope this helps. If anyone wants me to elaborate please don't hesitate to ask.

Tim Robbins

Undecided

Galvasean wrote: »

This was brought up in another thread. Rather than veer way off topic I felt this could use a thread of its own.
There's a poll. It's public so people will be able to see what you voted for. I do this (much like my poll in the Christianity forum) so people the poll is not aimed do not skew the results.
People of religious faith feel free to join the discussion, but please refrain from voting.

I am mainly against the concept of abortion. The problem with "pro-choice" is you never specified the choices. It's quite a complex issue so there would be quite a range of potential choices.

Galvasean

I am against abortion except for in cases of rape and also incest

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I am mainly against the concept of abortion. The problem with "pro-choice" is you never specified the choices. It's quite a complex issue so there would be quite a range of potential choices.

I put 'pro choice' in inverted commas as that is generally the phrase used when people mean 'I am in favour of allowing abortion'.

Tar.Aldarion

I am against abortion except for in cases of rape

Galvasean wrote: »

Hmmm, it would seem the poll is not public. I could have sworn the box was ticked...

Onward. On the topic of the foetus suffering it seems likely that a foetus can feel pain from fairly early stages. Since most abortions are carried out after said stages it looks likely that suffering occurs. Although i also agre that we need to do more research on this topic.
As I voted that I will only condone abortion after rape has occurred (assuming this can be proven too, so people don't yell rape every time they were careless win the bedroom) I should explain my position. If a woman has had to go through the trauma of being raped one can only imagine the stress of pregnancy would be detrimental to her mental health. Also, giving birth to the offspring of one's rapist would, I can only imagine, be very traumatic.

Hope this helps. If anyone wants me to elaborate please don't hesitate to ask.

The poll is public.

On the topic of it being traumatic, I believe she would be ok after a while, the baby(in my eyes) wouldn't have such a chance. It is traumatic yes but I don't think it justifies a death, she would need the right help around her during this. I know this would be a tough experience for the lady involved.

iUseVi

I am against abortion entirely

Galvasean wrote: »

Hmmm, it would seem the poll is not public. I could have sworn the box was ticked...

Someone already said. It is public, you have to click on the results to see who voted what.

raah!

I don't understand why whether or not someone being raped has any affect on it. I think the abortion debate is about whether or not the foetus is a person. If it is a person, you can't kill it, if it isn't you can. Whether or not the woman was raped has no baring on this, murder is already illegal.

It's mainly a scientific debate, not a philosophical or moral one as far as I'm concerned. And since there is a great deal of doubt in the scientific region, (on when brain function starts .. etc) people should er on the side of caution when murdering babies (lolz)

Anywya, I best get out of here, I was only drawn in by the evolution topic

,8,1

Abortion is Neo-pagan human sacrifice.

Galvasean

I am against abortion except for in cases of rape and also incest

,8,1 wrote: »

Abortion is Neo-pagan human sacrifice.

Good contribution.

Galvasean

I am against abortion except for in cases of rape and also incest

raah! wrote: »

I don't understand why whether or not someone being raped has any affect on it. I think the abortion debate is about whether or not the foetus is a person. If it is a person, you can't kill it, if it isn't you can. Whether or not the woman was raped has no baring on this, murder is already illegal.

To me, its kind of like a 'balance of suffering' issue. If the raped woman having to go through her pregnancy causes more pain than terminating the unborn I feel the abortion could be justified. Likewise were the woman to be suicidal, then both will ultimately end up dead, so abortion would be the only logical conclusion.

raah!

Unfortunatly when dealing with laws, we cannot take these things into account. If you murdered hitler you woudl still be sent to jail for murder, and since we are talking about making it legal/illegal that is really all that should matter

aidan24326

I am against abortion entirely

Galvasean wrote: »

I put 'pro choice' in inverted commas as that is generally the phrase used when people mean 'I am in favour of allowing abortion'.

I voted 'pro-choice' as this was the nearest option to what my personal opinion would be, but it only shows that your poll options are incomplete. I would not be in favour of allowing abortion in all cases, but of course the issue of where to draw lines is the big problem, and it's a problem that will likely never be solved as it's such a complex issue on which there will probably never be agreement.

Galvasean

I am against abortion except for in cases of rape and also incest

raah! wrote: »

Unfortunatly when dealing with laws, we cannot take these things into account.

Considering there has been proposed legislations to have abortion outlawed with exception of in cases of rape and incest such things are very much being taken into account on a wide scale.

raah! wrote: »

If you murdered hitler you woudl still be sent to jail for murder, and since we are talking about making it legal/illegal that is really all that should matter

If you murdered Hitler in a war scenario you'd be a hero, but i suppose that is beside your point.

Doctor DooM

I voted undecided.

I would say perhaps I veer towards pro choice.

I don't have kids, and I don't feel I have the right to decide for people in that situation whether they should be forced to come to term.

I would assume my opinion on this will change one way or the other with age.

OK-Cancel-Apply

I am against abortion entirely

Well, as you can see I'm very much pro-choice. My reasons are that I don't think a woman's uterus is the property of the state, nor do I think a human embryo can be considered life, any more that your arm, heart, liver etc..

Also, I highly doubt that something with no developed brain or nervous system can suffer pain, or have a concept of what 'being alive' even is.

OK-Cancel-Apply

I am against abortion entirely

SDooM wrote: »

I voted undecided.

I would say perhaps I veer towards pro choice.

I don't have kids, and I don't feel I have the right to decide for people in that situation whether they should be forced to come to term.

I would assume my opinion on this will change one way or the other with age.

I'd say that not having kids is advantage to you when considering this issue, as you are less likely to allow your emotions to cloud your judgement.

iUseVi

I am against abortion entirely

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Well, as you can see I'm very much pro-choice. My reasons are that I don't think a woman's uterus is the property of the state, nor do I think a human embryo can be considered life, any more that your arm, heart, liver etc..

Also, I highly doubt that something with no developed brain or nervous system can suffer pain, or have a concept of what 'being alive' even is.

Abortions that occur at later stages include those that have started to develop nervous systems. So it ain't quite so clear cut. As for the development of the brain - well, like I said, more research!

Galvasean

I am against abortion except for in cases of rape and also incest

I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure the nervous system develops fairly early. As for the functions of the brain, that is later, but we're not sure yet.

Holsten

I am against abortion entirely

100% pro choice.

JC 2K3

I am against abortion entirely

Where's the pro-abortion option? I hate the term "pro-choice".

If it's acceptable for a guy to masturbate or a girl to menstruate, then I don't see the problem with killing a zygote. After that, there's really no way of determining when it becomes a human.

Ultimately, I might seem a bit cold for saying this, but I really amn't too pushed about the death of something with zero real life experience or anything to define them as a unique person (DNA means nothing to me in this context).

iUseVi

I am against abortion entirely

JC 2K3 wrote: »

If it's acceptable for a guy to masturbate or a girl to menstruate, then I don't see the problem with killing a zygote. After that, there's really no way of determining when it becomes a human.

Abortion is not just about zygotes. A zygote is a very early stage of the development. Abortions can be carried out at much later stages.

OK-Cancel-Apply

I am against abortion entirely

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Where's the pro-abortion option? I hate the term "pro-choice".

If it's acceptable for a guy to masturbate or a girl to menstruate, then I don't see the problem with killing a zygote. After that, there's really no way of determining when it becomes a human.

Ultimately, I might seem a bit cold for saying this, but I really amn't too pushed about the death of something with zero real life experience or anything to define them as a unique person (DNA means nothing to me in this context).

Exactly! Where's the value? Some might say that abortion takes away potential for a life to develop, but like you said, so does masturbation, or indeed to decision to not have sex with somebody.

humanji

I am against abortion entirely

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Where's the pro-abortion option? I hate the term "pro-choice".

But there's a difference to those two terms. I'm pro-choice in that I'm personally against abortions, but believe that everyone should have the right to choose for themselves. So, I can't really be fully described as pro-abortion.

OK-Cancel-Apply

I am against abortion entirely

iUseVi wrote: »

Abortion is not just about zygotes. A zygote is a very early stage of the development. Abortions can be carried out at much later stages.

I think we need more options in the poll!

JC 2K3

I am against abortion entirely

iUseVi wrote: »

Abortion is not just about zygotes. A zygote is a very early stage of the development. Abortions can be carried out at much later stages.

Of course. But my point was that I can't see a problem with abortion at the moment of conception.

iUseVi

I am against abortion entirely

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Of course. But my point was that I can't see a problem with abortion at the moment of conception.

Well I can't see a problem with that either. As Sam Harris says, with the advances in genetic manipulation these days, every time you scratch your nose you are committing mass murder. All those skins cells were potential people! :pac:

For me the crux of the matter is the cut off point. At what stage does a foetus suffer? Not an easy answer I don't suppose. :rolleyes:

JC 2K3

I am against abortion entirely

So would you be ok with painless (to the foetus) abortions?

I never understood the suffering argument.....

iUseVi

I am against abortion entirely

JC 2K3 wrote: »

So would you be ok with painless (to the foetus) abortions?

I never understood the suffering argument.....

Hmm well the way I use the suffering argument is thus. If YOU were the foetus, would you be conscious of any suffering by your removal from the womb? If yes, then it is wrong. If no, then fine.

Obviously a zygote is not conscious of pain or suffering. A small foetus would also be unaware of anything, since it has no developed brain.

It's not a question of pain perception per se. You can easily kill full grown adults by anaesthetising, and they won't feel pain. But an adult would be entirely conscious of the process. They have a brain, and a fully developed nervous system, etc.

I don't know enough about embryology to make an informed judgement on abortion cut-off points. But in theory I am pro-choice.

Dinner

I am against abortion entirely

I'd be pro-choice. As has already been said it is no concern of the government if a girl wants to have an abortion.

But since it can be a life altering decision either way I think it's important that there is some degree of education about both outcomes, i.e. make them aware of the possibility of regret if she decides to along with an abortion as well as the difficulties faced with having a baby.But I'd hate to see abortion become commonplace and like a '1 hour photo' shop, or a place to go during lunch.

Hivemind187

I am against abortion entirely

I've made my feelings about the subject of abortion very clear in the past (much to the apparent dislike of many folks here) so I wont go into that again.

I would question why this is a valid question in the first place though (no offense intended to the OP) since I have ever understood why abortion is most often considered a theological question (or at least one with a heavy weight of theology). As an atheist I have bugger all opinion other than it not being a theological question.

As a libertarian (politics) and human being my opinions are rather strongly in favor of pro-choice.

limerick_woody

I am against abortion entirely

I would agree that there are not enough options. I voted pro-choice but that doesn't really cover it.

I think that abortion if justified for rape in all cases.

I would also contend that if the medical opinion is that the pregnancy, taken to full term would result in no quality of life for the baby - abortion is also justified.

I also feel that if the mother doesn't feel capable of rearing a child, perhaps because she is still a child herself, or feels she could offer no quality of life for the child, there is also a case to be made.

I wouldn't like to see 'abortion on demand', and i would like to see all abortions carried out as early as possible.

JimiTime

May i ask to anyone who only agree's with abortion for rape cases, or if the mother is deemed too young etc. Why is it wrong apart from these cases? Not looking to argue btw, just curious.

Orion

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I am mainly against the concept of abortion. The problem with "pro-choice" is you never specified the choices. It's quite a complex issue so there would be quite a range of potential choices.

Agreed. It's a much more complicated issue that allowed in the poll.

I wouldn't necessarily be in favour of abortion nor against it - but undecided doesn't suit me either. As Tar said - in life threatening cases the arguments for me would be in favour of saving the life of the mother - that's not catered for in the choiced. Similarly in rape cases or rape+incest cases there are just too many variables to consider.

MrPudding

I am against abortion entirely

I am pro choice, for reasons other posters have already mentioned. Mostly as I believe the rights of the woman supersede those of the embryo growing inside her. I would say , though, that I am not particularly pro abortion. I believe in a woman’s right to have one, but I would prefer if they were not needed.

I have to say though, I do have a problem with late term abortions, past the point where the foetus would be viable should it be delivered. So, my views could be summed up as follows. I believe a woman should have freedom to have an abortion for whatever reason up to the point where the foetus is viable on it own or with medical assistance. I may not necessarily agree with the woman’s reason for having it, but I believe she should have that right. I won’t get caught up in the rights of the embryo or foetus because as far as I am concerned the rights of the woman are greater. So that is nice and simple for me. For late term abortions my personal opinion is they should only be available in cases where there is a risk to the mother (be it physical or mental) or the quality of life of the child is questionable.

MrP

pH

I am against abortion entirely

MrPudding wrote: »

I am pro choice, for reasons other posters have already mentioned. Mostly as I believe the rights of the woman supersede those of the embryo growing inside her. I would say , though, that I am not particularly pro abortion. I believe in a woman’s right to have one, but I would prefer if they were not needed.

That I agree with, the "prefer they were not needed" bit in particular. Where medical problems exist or in case or a forced or non-consensual pregnancy (rape and child abuse primarily) I am in favour of abortion. As a means of dealing with unwanted pregnancies I'm not so sure. Clearly there's not real problem aborting a cell that fused with a sperm 10 minutes ago, and also clearly no one is in favour of allowing parents kill their children post-birth (though the act of birth is not that relevant in terms of development) Therefore it's the perennial problem of looking at this continuous process of embryo development and drawing a line through it somewhere.

What really cheeses me off is a substantial number of religiously motivated people being both anti-abortion and anti-contraception (see Ireland up to 1985). Hopefully through contraception and education we could get to the stage where women don't get pregnant when they don't want to and therefore we only need abortion for the medical/criminal cases above.

herya

I am against abortion entirely

I voted pro-choice, but I am against late term abortions. I think that the date limit for possible abortion should be set somewhere between the moment the nervous system is developed and the brain is developed, this one is for the scientists to decide. There should still be plenty of time for the rape/incest victims to make their decisions and act, as a woman I don't think you need months and months to do that.

Malari

I am against abortion entirely

I'm pro-choice. And I think that is a better description than pro-abortion - the woman who is pregnant should have the free choice. Anti-abortionists don't call themselves "anti-choice" because of the obvious negative connotations!

Despite the fact that I would have an abortion in the morning if I found out I was pregnant today, I can't say it would be easy, a carefree decision or something that wouldn't be a cause of emotional strain for the rest of my life.

DinoBot

I am against abortion entirely

Galvasean wrote: »

Hmmm, it would seem the poll is not public. I could have sworn the box was ticked...

As I voted that I will only condone abortion after rape has occurred (assuming this can be proven too, so people don't yell rape every time they were careless win the bedroom) I should explain my position. If a woman has had to go through the trauma of being raped one can only imagine the stress of pregnancy would be detrimental to her mental health. Also, giving birth to the offspring of one's rapist would, I can only imagine, be very traumatic.

Hope this helps. If anyone wants me to elaborate please don't hesitate to ask.

Hi,
So you are pro-choice because "the stress of pregnancy would be detrimental to her mental health" in the case of a rape victim.

So, if a woman was not raped but the stress of pregnancy would be detrimental to her mental health, would you be pro-choice for her then ?

Dades

DinoBot wrote: »

So, if a woman was not raped but the stress of pregnancy would be detrimental to her mental health, would you be pro-choice for her then ?

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but wasn't there already a choice in that situation?

all the stars

im pro choice.
Abortion wouldn't be my choice, but i do believe it should be a choice for others.

Malari

I am against abortion entirely

Dades wrote: »

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but wasn't there already a choice in that situation?

I know you're playing devil's advocate, but if you think all pregnant women choose to be that way, you're being a little naive.

All methods of contraception can fail, no matter how careful you are.

DinoBot

I am against abortion entirely

Dades wrote: »

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but wasn't there already a choice in that situation?

I dont think so.

He (or she, not sure, sorry) did give his reason for allowing abortion was due to the mental health of the woman and not actually because of the rape act itself. So, by that logic, anything which effects the mental health to that extent should come under the same conditions to allow abortion.

Dades

Malari wrote: »

If you think all pregnant women choose to be that way, you're being a little naive.

Never suggested that!

Malari

I am against abortion entirely

Dades wrote: »

Never suggested that!

OK So what was the "choice" that you refer to?

DinoBot

I am against abortion entirely

raah! wrote: »

Unfortunatly when dealing with laws, we cannot take these things into account. If you murdered hitler you woudl still be sent to jail for murder, and since we are talking about making it legal/illegal that is really all that should matter

So if a soldier had shot and killed hitler during the war would he have been put on trial for murder ?
Is killing illegal during war ?

CerebralCortex

Reductio ad Hitlerum

Tim Robbins

Undecided

Hivemind187 wrote: »

As a libertarian (politics) and human being my opinions are rather strongly in favor of pro-choice.

This is a silly argument. Surely if you give the choice to the baby they'd want to live and by enforcing death on them you are taking choice away from them.

Dave!

I am against abortion entirely

I am teh pro-choice.

Dades

Malari wrote: »

OK So what was the "choice" that you refer to?

To engage in something that may result in pregnancy!