The end of BOD?

d-gal

I am feelin that BOD should not be captain anymore and subbed off for a while, he is a great defensive player but woeful going forward, he has lost his pace and jink over the years and it seems we need a new centre pairing now! If our centres attacked well we could have beaten aus easy and given New Zealand a even better run for their money.
O'connell to take over captaincy?

New era of centres? Earls/Fitz - Fitz/Kearney - Earls/Hurley

I have great admiration for BOD but he living off his reputation and media press, time to step down

Junior

I've said this before about BOD, he's a very special special talent, and it's obvious that he's at the limit of what his body can take, he needs someone to take him aside and change his training routine, his way of 'rugby' life. I think if he's pushed the same as the rest of the team we won't get the best length of life out of him.

Sherifu

He has been run into the ground.

Teferi

I reckon he has one final world cup in him, he said himself that that would be a great time to set down too.

I agree Junior, changing around his routine would be good for him.

Gelio

He has done his country proud hes not quite finished playing but maybe its time to hand over the armband.
Anyone ever consider kearney as a captain in a few years time?

Tim Robbins

d-gal wrote: »

I am feelin that BOD should not be captain anymore and subbed off for a while, he is a great defensive player but woeful going forward, he has lost his pace and jink over the years and it seems we need a new centre pairing now! If our centres attacked well we could have beaten aus easy and given New Zealand a even better run for their money.
O'connell to take over captaincy?

New era of centres? Earls/Fitz - Fitz/Kearney - Earls/Hurley

I have great admiration for BOD but he living off his reputation and media press, time to step down

Earls can't get into the Munster team. Kearny don't have the hands to play center or the quick feet to move in traffic. Hurley ihas yet to proove himself.
Just because he won a H Cup doesn't mean his up to international level.

RugbyFanatic

d-gal wrote: »

I am feelin that BOD should not be captain anymore and subbed off for a while, he is a great defensive player but woeful going forward, he has lost his pace and jink over the years and it seems we need a new centre pairing now! If our centres attacked well we could have beaten aus easy and given New Zealand a even better run for their money.
O'connell to take over captaincy?

New era of centres? Earls/Fitz - Fitz/Kearney - Earls/Hurley

I have great admiration for BOD but he living off his reputation and media press, time to step down

You want to put Hurley at centre???

Even Kearney at centre is silly but Hurley?? :eek:


I don't know who I'd give the captaincy to possibly Best but not O'Connoll he simply hasn't been playing well and has not even been able to sort his own lineout. Bad decision maker IMO but better than BOD who from what I can see is silent for the games

Stev_o

BOD's not gone he's still there but the chances of him getting back to his best are slim to none. Its the exact same thing with Wilko both players started international rugby very young and got to the highest levels of international rugby when they were in their early twentys [Wilko was 19 playing in the 1999 RWC, BOD i think was 19/20 in that RWC not too sure]

It gets too a point where your body is able to keep up with the amount of injuries thats afflicting it. BOD will still be here but he'll be mediocre at best and its the exact same with Wilkinson shame how the intensity of rugby can really wear down the best talent you have but thats rugby for you.

d-gal

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

You want to put Hurley at centre???

Even Kearney at centre is silly but Hurley?? :eek:


I don't know who I'd give the captaincy to possibly Best but not O'Connoll he simply hasn't been playing well and has not even been able to sort his own lineout. Bad decision maker IMO but better than BOD who from what I can see is silent for the games

hurley has a good step and generally very good defensively, just an option to test, with kearney he is still very young so he should be tested everywhere coz he can develop alot more. Again just options and suggestions.

Best? The man does not even have a guaranteed starting place!

Crash

He does now :P

RugbyFanatic

d-gal wrote: »

hurley has a good step and generally very good defensively, just an option to test, with kearney he is still very young so he should be tested everywhere coz he can develop alot more. Again just options and suggestions.

Best? The man does not even have a guaranteed starting place!

Look I like Hurley but I don't feel he'll ever be anything above a below average centre. He has possible potential on wing or at fullback but not as a centre.

After Flannery's displays I'd say Best is first choice for the considerable future.

He's mature, has the respect of the team, talkative and has captained Ulster. I just feel that hes the best of a bad bunch of leaders

I've no doubt Kearney will step up in a few years though as captain. Confidence, assured play and despite being a young player in the team is very talkative

dc69

Earls will be a future Ireland centre,of that im sure.I dont even think hurley will ever be international player.Hurley is 24,he is not going to get any better.

He would need to get dramatically better to even get on the team in any position.

Im all for youngster improving,but at 24,if you can't catch well and your defence is dodgy,training isnt gona improve you dramatically.

The centre partnership for Ireland will be Fitzgerald and either Earls or O'Malley.Earls has unbelievable talent as does O'Malley,so we are likely to still have a top class partnership in the future.

Hurley should have been playing years ago ie 20-22,to have developed a bit more.He wasnt and this is the result.

Amazotheamazing

BOD was injured yesterday and he still scored a try.

What he needs is a break from all rugby until next January, he's clearly out of shape and unfit. Give him a chance to fully recouperate. We can try Fitz or Earls at 13 for the Autumn tests.

The ELV's won't suit a player like Rory Best, the future is mobile hookers like Flannery and Cronin.

dc69

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

The ELV's won't suit a player like Rory Best, the future is mobile hookers like Flannery and Cronin.

Flannery is 29 and best is 25,best is the future and should now be given that spot permanantly,regardless of who is better.Realsitically,he wll be the hooker in 2011.

How has the end of bod,turned into flannery and best discussion lol

Who is cronin,is he any good?

Amazotheamazing

dc69 wrote: »

Flannery is 29 and best is 25,best is the future and should now be given that spot permanantly,regardless of who is better.Realsitically,he wll be the hooker in 2011.

How has the end of bod,turned into flannery and best discussion lol

Who is cronin,is he any good?

Cronin is the Munster hooker who's moving to Connacht next year. Incredibly pacey, tracked down the Clontarf winger in the AIL final two years ago, scores tries for fun in the AIL. Was playing for Ireland A yesterday. He's a big guy too, so he's well able for the scrum and the hard work.

Best is still an "iffy" thrower who offers nothing around the pitch. The ELV's were almost designed to weed guys like him out. If he's our future, then our future isn't going to amount to much.

Danger_Dave

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Cronin is the Munster hooker who's moving to Connacht next year. Incredibly pacey, tracked down the Clontarf winger in the AIL final two tears ago, scores tries for fun in the AIL. Was playing for Ireland A yesterday. He's a big guy too, so he's well able for the scrum and the hard work.

Best is still an "iffy" thrower who offers nothing around the pitch. The ELV's were almost designed to weed guys like him out. If he's our future, then our future isn't going to amount to much.

I agree with you on Cronnin think he's going to be top class. However to say Best offers nothing around the park is a stretch. On the ELV's Im not convinced the Northern Hemisphere will accept after the trial.

Give him till Xmas off, needs a long break , after that i think this jerk reaction that is career is over will be forgotten again.

P.S Healy did well in the Scrum against England Saxons. Earls Looks to be quality. Cronnin promising, Keatly when he came on looked impressive. Some exciting Irish players coming up ! .

Amazotheamazing

When you consider a modern hooker is effectively an auxiliary flanker now, you have to agree Best is simply too invisible in the loose, and that's under the old rules. Look at the SH front rows are able to carry and pass and play it well in the loose. Cian Healy is the future of propping too, 15 years ago he'd be a flanker, now every flanker that is not quite good enough to be a backrow but still too good to drop will play prop.

Whether we like it or not, it's what the ELV's are bringing us.

The ELV's will not suit Best, at all.

Danger_Dave

Theres more scrums in the Super 14 with the ELVS from the statistics this year, than last year without the ELV's in the super 14. With all the Free kicks that are going to be given instead of penalties. Teams have started to scrum down alot more to put the other teams entire pack in the set piece.

Rory Best is the best hooker we have for scrums, so with his throwing/Scrum and he is average in the loose not weak. The ELV's are not going to be totally unsuitable for him.

Abercrombie Dud

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

I don't know who I'd give the captaincy to possibly Best

im sorry now but that is absolutley insane!the guy can;t even get a game fo ireland and look at his leadership at Ulster and where it took them; to the foot of the table and their most promising players leaving.

Crash

There have been things rotten in that team for a while now, don't think you can really put all the blame on their table position on Best to be honest. Wouldnt say he'd be my first choice for captain, but a lot of those are slowly ruling themselves out in the way they play and the lack of leadership they show on the pitch, tbh.

RugbyFanatic

Abercrombie Dud wrote: »

im sorry now but that is absolutley insane!the guy can;t even get a game fo ireland and look at his leadership at Ulster and where it took them; to the foot of the table and their most promising players leaving.

Can't even get a game for Ireland?

I am sorry but you obviously haven't watched much Irish rugby games.

I think this tour has shown that Best is our no.1 hooker and Flannery for all his great loose play simply can't do the basics and it costs us.

Ulster were a disaster not because of poor captaincy but because they were an extremely poor side and were poorly coached.

Tell me who you think should be our captain then? And don't even try saying O'Connoll who couldn't even control his own lineout this tour!

The team is lacking leaders we only have 3 options :
Brian O'Driscoll,
O'Connoll,
Best


and of those 3 I'd give it to Best

Danger_Dave

He's the best of a bad bunch

davyjose

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

The team is lacking leaders we only have 3 options :
Brian O'Driscoll,
O'Connoll,
Best


and of those 3 I'd give it to Best

We have more than 3 options. I'd have ROG ahead of Best any day.

RugbyFanatic

I love ROG but as we've seen hes simply not a leader, hes not a motivator and has been known to drop his head in games. Leaders are strong individuals. People that others look up to and from what I have heard from reliable sources O'Connell, O'Driscoll and Best are the three most respected individuals amongst the squad.

Abercrombie Dud

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

Can't even get a game for Ireland?

I am sorry but you obviously haven't watched much Irish rugby games.

I think this tour has shown that Best is our no.1 hooker and Flannery for all his great loose play simply can't do the basics and it costs us.

Ulster were a disaster not because of poor captaincy but because they were an extremely poor side and were poorly coached.

Tell me who you think should be our captain then? And don't even try saying O'Connoll who couldn't even control his own lineout this tour!

The team is lacking leaders we only have 3 options :
Brian O'Driscoll,
O'Connoll,
Best


and of those 3 I'd give it to Best

no i wouldnt say POC not at all,hes managment of the lineout was a shambles

best starts maybe every 2nd game for ireland, you want a captain who can go from no.2 to 16 in one game?

and best's performance as captain against argentina on the summer tour lst summer was a joke.we were 5 points down 10 mins before half time and he went for the scrum 5 times in a row.yes we put them under pressue and should have got a penalty try,but the ref didnt budge so why not just take the points if the ref wouldnt give away.but we kept going until we we knocked the ball on.

my personal choice would be ROG and his leadership for munster during the HC group stages was rock solid.

Danger_Dave

Abercrombie Dud wrote: »

no i wouldnt say POC not at all,hes managment of the lineout was a shambles

best starts maybe every 2nd game for ireland, you want a captain who can go from no.2 to 16 in one game?

and best's performance as captain against argentina on the summer tour lst summer was a joke.we were 5 points down 10 mins before half time and he went for the scrum 5 times in a row.yes we put them under pressue and should have got a penalty try,but the ref didnt budge so why not just take the points if the ref wouldnt give away.but we kept going until we we knocked the ball on.

my personal choice would be ROG and his leadership for munster during the HC group stages was rock solid.

You've got your facts wrong Im afraid. It was Simon Best who captained Ireland against Argentina. Also the reason we took 5 scrums was two fold. one we had them under pressure at scrum time and any good ref would have awarded a penalty try. Two Jeremy Staunton could'nt hit a Barn Door that Night.

P.S I do not like ROG as captain, after one game for Munster he criticized players on his own team , saying that they did'nt want it enough. Also we've had a back in as captain for to long, it needs to be someone in the pack in my opinion.

Abercrombie Dud

Danger_Dave wrote: »

You've got your facts wrong Im afraid. It was Simon Best who captained Ireland against Argentina. Also the reason we took 5 scrums was two fold. one we had them under pressure at scrum time and any good ref would have awarded a penalty try. Two Jeremy Staunton could'nt hit a Barn Door that Night. quote]

my apoligies you couldnt be any more correct.

but your also wrong!

Danger_Dave wrote: »

Two Jeremy Staunton could'nt hit a Barn Door that Night. quote]

it was paddy wallace who couldnt hit the barn door!i actualy think staunton was commentating on the game...

Danger_Dave

Abercrombie Dud wrote: »

it was paddy wallace who couldnt hit the barn door!i actualy think staunton was commentating on the game...

Your wrong again ! , Paddy wallace was nursing an injury after the the first test and Jeremy Staunton was called from the A squad to play in the Second Test. Zing !

Abercrombie Dud

im gonna stop before i make an even bigger fool out of myself.:p

besides guys i think we've (myself included) gone off the subject off BOD's fall from grace.:o

taidghbaby

is it ok if i talk about the thread title?????

no bod isnt finished....he needs a good rest to recharge the batteries and regain the hunger!! he might also need to loose a few ounces (but hey who doesnt )

and OP as for your options :eek::eek::eek:

maybe earls if he gets more provincial gametime....but hurley and kearney-never!!!

Sundy

d-gal wrote: »

hurley has a good step and generally very good defensively, just an option to test, with kearney he is still very young so he should be tested everywhere coz he can develop alot more. Again just options and suggestions.

Best? The man does not even have a guaranteed starting place!

I believe Hurley had a shocker in the A game. Not much good id he cant even step up to that level.

irishbucsfan

Sundy wrote: »

I believe Hurley had a shocker in the A game. Not much good id he cant even step up to that level.

Agreed he was absolutely terrible.

dc69

How much game time,do munster fans think Earls would get next year?.I would bench mafi tbh and put Earls in,he looks a gem imo.

I think Hurley is evidence of what happens,if you dont play them young.

P_1

To veer even further off topic who fancies Connaught's chances next year.
I must say I was very impressed by Murphy and Keatley in the Churchill Cup.
Last year if Connaught had a decent backline they'd be in the Heineken now IMHO.

dc69

pithater1 wrote: »

To veer even further off topic who fancies Connaught's chances next year.
I must say I was very impressed by Murphy and Keatley in the Churchill Cup.
Last year if Connaught had a decent backline they'd be in the Heineken now IMHO.

Keatley has a very good placekick.Its a ballsy move for him,cause he is young and is most likely in college in Dublin,so he is obviously taking rugby very seriously to move.

P_1

dc69 wrote: »

Keatley is a leinster play.I hope IF they have sent him to connaught,its a loan.Cause he could be good.

1 year contract I believe. Fionn Carr too.
Good move if you ask me. They're never going to get ahead of the galactacos this year. Better off them getting gametine in Connaught than playing AIL/ getting splinters.

dc69

pithater1 wrote: »

1 year contract I believe. Fionn Carr too.
Good move if you ask me. They're never going to get ahead of the galactacos this year. Better off them getting gametine in Connaught than playing AIL/ getting splinters.

I edited my original post,cause i re-read that he had moved:)

P_1

dc69 wrote: »

I edited my original post,cause i re-read that he had moved:)

No worries :pac:
Could be a good idea, send the young hotshots off to Connaught for the year and have them return much improved. Seems Connaught is finally being used as it as intended

marco_polo

dc69 wrote: »

How much game time,do munster fans think Earls would get next year?.I would bench mafi tbh and put Earls in,he looks a gem imo.

I think Hurley is evidence of what happens,if you dont play them young.

He should definately be a regular on the bench for the start of next season, I think he will be, as he has really put his hand up in the last few games. This season he only appeared a once or twice on the bench and annoyingly Anthony Horgan was picked ahead of him towards the end of the season.

Also he and he is still very young so he should still be eased demand of full time professional rugby gently, much like the way Luke and Rob were at Leinster a few years back to the credit of the Leinster management. I seems that Munster re-evaluated their conservative policy of bring young players through after the Llannelli Q/F defeat of the season before last and I hope the improvement in this regard continues under the new management.

I think you are a little harsh on Hurley, even though he had a couple of poor games for Ireland A. Bear in mind he has probably really only played three top class rubgy games in his career so far. I do fully accept your point about his development being left very late, but I don't think it is nescessary too late. Even if he only ever becomes a very good player for Munster I will be happy enough. I think after next season we will be able to make a much better judgement on his true potential.

marco_polo

pithater1 wrote: »

1 year contract I believe. Fionn Carr too.
Good move if you ask me. They're never going to get ahead of the galactacos this year. Better off them getting gametine in Connaught than playing AIL/ getting splinters.

Great to see Cronin will be getting some game time there as well, he looks like he could be a real gem too. I would love to see them finish above Ulster next season, as Ulster seem hell bent on filling their side with ageing SH Journeymen instead of taking a chance on promising younsters.

I hope we might see him back at Munster in a few years time (Sorry for being selfish Connacht fans )

P_1

marco_polo wrote: »

I hope we might see him back at Munster in a few years time (Sorry for being selfish Connacht fans )

Well they are meant to be the development province

dc69

marco_polo wrote: »

I think you are a little harsh on Hurley, even though he had a couple of poor games for Ireland A. Bear in mind he has probably really only played three top class rubgy games in his career so far. I do fully accept your point about his development being left very late, but I don't think it is nescessary too late. Even if he only ever becomes a very good player for Munster I will be happy enough. I think after next season we will be able to make a much better judgement on his true potential.

Maybe I am.Il be honest and say the first time I can remember seeing him play was the final and jauzion made **** of him every time a ball was kicked.I saw him as a major liability.

Im concerned not about his running abilities and I think his defence can be improved upon,my main concern is his catching.He doesnt seem to have that confidence or timing that is required at the top level.He is a tall lad,taller than kearney but he mistimes his jumps every time I see him.

Bearing in mind im just a spectator,If I was an opposition coach I would target him all day long.

I think he is really unlucky that he has kearney as competition as this guy looks the real deal and that may hinder his development regards Ireland.

Im really liking earls,I think he will be great.I dont fancy him at 13 at all though,but I think he can be a great 12.So should be nutured as a 12 imo.

marco_polo

pithater1 wrote: »

Well they are meant to be the development province

/puts on helmet, runs for cover

P_1

marco_polo wrote: »

/puts on helmet, runs for cover

Well it'll make a welcome change from the usual Leinster Munster scheissefests :eek:

dc69

I think Bernard Jackman is a fine example of how good connaught can be for a player.Many say jackman is not good enough for Ireland but I hope he continues at Leinster for years,the guy has been immence.

marco_polo

dc69 wrote: »

Maybe I am.Il be honest and say the first time I can remember seeing him play was the final and jauzion made **** of him every time a ball was kicked.I saw him as a major liability.

Im concerned not about his running abilities and I think his defence can be improved upon,my main concern is his catching.He doesnt seem to have that confidence or timing that is required at the top level.

I think he is really unlucky that he has kearney as competition as this guy looks the real deal and that may hinder his development regards Ireland.

Im really liking earls,I think he will be great.I dont fancy him at 13 at all though,but I think he can be a great 12.So should be nutured as a 12 imo.

I don't see Hurley ever unseating Rob from the 15 shirt for Ireland in any case as he looks well on his way to becoming one of the best fullbacks in the world. As regards Earls I would 100% like to see him developed as a center from the off. This season I hope he can put in a good bit of game time both from the bench and starting, because I have a feeling that Tipoki may not be around the season after next so he should be a center spot up for grabs.

I hope he doesn't suffer from the same problem that all young players playing Irish sports do, the mentality of 'of stick the young lad in on the wing / corner forward / etc.

pithater1 wrote: »

Well it'll make a welcome change from the usual Leinster Munster scheissefests :eek:

I'm sure RuggieBear, Crash_000 and Amz will be thrilled with a bit of variety

P_1

True, also having Elwood up there is surey good for the younger players. Afterall he did coach the U20s to a grand slam in 07.
It'll be interesting to see how they get on. Hopefully they'll finish above Dragons/Ulster

dc69

marco_polo wrote: »

I don't see Hurley ever unseating Rob from the 15 shirt for Ireland in any case as he looks well on his way to becoming one of the best fullbacks in the world. As regards Earls I would 100% like to see him developed as a center from the off. This season I hope he can put in a good bit of game time both from the bench and starting, because I have a feeling that Tipoki may not be around the season after next so he should be a center spot up for grabs.

I hope he doesn't suffer from the same problem that all young players playing Irish sports do, the mentality of 'of stick the young lad in on the wing / corner forward / etc.



I'm sure RuggieBear, Crash_000 and Amz will be thrilled with a bit of variety

I think if we just replace munster and leinster with ulster in every sentence,they will be ok with it:D

Podge_irl

marco_polo wrote: »

I would love to see them finish above Ulster next season, as Ulster seem hell bent on filling their side with ageing SH Journeymen instead of taking a chance on promising younsters.

To be fair Ulster were playing a good number of youngsters towards the end of this season and a fat lot of good it did them. They are losing several senior players and they absolutely had to replace them with experienced players or they would be in serious trouble.

subfreq

I think BOD does have too many miles on the clock and perhaps he is entering that phase of his career where he has to rethink his game to match what the body can do. He still has a lot to offer in the green jersey though and it's a few years previous to be writing him off.

I do however think that changing the captaincy this Autumn would be a god thing. O'Connel is the natural choice but I would go with Heaslip instead. A captain at number 8 is a huge asset and like BOD he will lead by the example of his performance for years to come. What he lacks in leadership now he will grow into and the tea, will go with him I think.

Heaslip more than any other player is the face of modern/future Irish rugby at the moment.

geoff29

im totally in favour of o'driscoll and think he can do the next world cup.

yes, hes lost pace - but that's been the case for quite a while now - he still has the step though - you don't really lose that - but from all his injuries top end pace is hurting.

despite this however, i dont think people like Kearney, Fitz and Trimble possibly would play how they play without O'Driscoll being there - now i'm not meaning to belittle them - but i'd bet good money on them trying to raise their own performances to impress the O'Driscoll - they are at an age remember that would have seen them looking at O'Driscoll when they were in late school years and left thinking 'wow'!!

so, i agree with the others - he def needs time off - possibly lose some of the bulk which i know is pretty relentless/intrinsic/devestating in his defence - he's an almighty tackler and incredibly brave - and how many turnovers?? that's experience right there - and a level of fearlessness that a lot of other player dont seem to have. if he lost some weight though - might give some relief to tired muscles and bones.

reckon he could come back after a few months rest as a slightly slimline version of himself, and be back to cause havoc amongst the others again.

re his captaining abilities - was never much of a fan - wonder what kidney will do. however, if he were to somehow manage to give all the pr b.s that would be great - though im sure its in his contract. but above all, he may not have the voice of a leader, but as i mentioned earlier in how others perceive him on the pitch, he absolutely leads by example.

i say keep him!