What do you think is the best course of action for Ireland to take now?

FunkZ

Weathercheck wrote: »

Love to see how this poll works out, at the moment a large chunk of you actually want to leave the EU?

No wonder the No side won!

Once upon a time there was a small country with a small economy, then their big richer brothers in Europe helped their little brother out and send them lots of euro's to build up their small country and small economy. That small country got a big economy and became rich beyond their wildest dreams. Then that small country began to lose some of their richness due to poor government and a poor global economy. That small country was asked to decide whether the Europe should continue to expand and whether it was going to help the other countries in the EU because it is now a big brother. That country had now turned into a rich arrogant country and feared it would loss the euro's it had been given. The little country turned its back on its bigger brothers and a crisis ensued in the EU. That little brother was then sidelined from the EU and just as quick as it had become rich it turned back into a small country with a small economy. Would it be given help by its bigger brother in the future?

This is the first thing relating to LT that's actually made sense to me

SimpleSam06

Annatar wrote: »

Ohh Dear God!
If it wasnt for the EU we would be getting handouts from an Ethiopean version of Concern. "we may be starving, but look at those poor basstard Irish"

Absoloute tripe.

Annatar wrote: »

Celtic Tiger Arrogance, the belief we are more important than we actually are.

And yet here we are, stopping the EU juggernaut dead in its tracks.

Annatar wrote: »

Compare the amount of cash Brown had lying around to bail out northern rock with ROI total budget spend.

Er what does the bailout of a UK bank have to do with us?

ejmaztec wrote:

Many people refuse to accept that Ireland would not have been an economic powerhouse (short-lived though it's been), without having firstly joined the EU. These people, as well as living in Ireland, have dual nationality with the residents of cloud-cuckoo-land. I remember what Ireland was like before it joined, a stone-age backwater, especially outside Dublin.

That's like saying the sky is blue today and I just found a fifty euro note, so lets all bow down before the sky god. One doesn't lead into the other. The EU is opposed to our lower corporate tax rate, which was the decision mainly responsible for our tiger economy getting kicked off, and the reduction in interest rates, which started the property boom, was a global event, not due to the EU. In fact the ECB is raising interest rates to combat inflation, which will have a very detrimental effect on our economy.

I cannot believe the lack of understanding of these issues that people have today.

ejmaztec

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

That's like saying the sky is blue today and I just found a fifty euro note, so lets all bow down before the sky god. One doesn't lead into the other. The EU is opposed to our lower corporate tax rate, which was the decision mainly responsible for our tiger economy getting kicked off, and the reduction in interest rates, which started the property boom, was a global event, not due to the EU. In fact the ECB is raising interest rates to combat inflation, which will have a very detrimental effect on our economy.

I cannot believe the lack of understanding of these issues that people have today.

I cannot believe the number of people living in denial of the knock-on affect of EU membership. How do you think Ireland was able to afford giving tax-incentives to potential investors, many of whom would not have come here, whatever the tax incentives, had Ireland not been an EU member?

ART6

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Absoloute tripe.

That's like saying the sky is blue today and I just found a fifty euro note, so lets all bow down before the sky god. One doesn't lead into the other. The EU is opposed to our lower corporate tax rate, which was the decision mainly responsible for our tiger economy getting kicked off, and the reduction in interest rates, which started the property boom, was a global event, not due to the EU. In fact the ECB is raising interest rates to combat inflation, which will have a very detrimental effect on our economy.

I cannot believe the lack of understanding of these issues that people have today.

Couldn't agree more. The EU and the ECB have no interest whatever in Ireland's economy. Personally I believe that everything they have ever done was tailored to the needs of France and Germany, with Spain hanging desperately onto their tails. If the rising interest rates, the current strength of the Euro, and the endless bureaucracy and regulation cripple us, does anyone think they will even notice, or would have done even before the NO vote?

eoin2nc

The ignorance of some people.The Celtic Tiger was caused by:

1- Multinational corporations being attracted here due to our low taxes,educated workforca and, most important, acces to the EU markets

2- The BILLIONS given to us by the EU to improve infrastructure

3- Irish firms being able to expand into the EU markets


Anyone who thinks Ireland would have the economic growth it has experienced without the EU is mis-informed. Leaving the EU would be economic suicide.

Whats all this about fishing, OK if Ireland leaves the EU it can fish without quotas ect, which would lead to overfishing ect. But would this be able to employ the THOUSANDS of workers who would lose their jobs when Microsoft,Intel,Dell,Whyeth ect up and leave? I think not

kraggy

ejmaztec wrote: »

All of the governments in the EU are democratically elected to represent the interests of their countries.:rolleyes:

Yes, but just because people voted for a particular party in a particular country doesn't mean they agree with that party on this issue.

Not sure about mainland Europe, but here in Britain people are pissed that they didn't get to vote on Lisbon.

Tar.Aldarion

How long exactly would fish stocks in our water last as a matter of interest?
Also companies not only came to Ireland becasue of the tax rate, it was because they were in the eu.

Gu3rr1lla

I'm just going to say this and leave it at this. Please go research or google "FIAT money", "money as debt" or "credit money". Thanks.

SimpleSam06

ejmaztec wrote: »

How do you think Ireland was able to afford giving tax-incentives to potential investors

Not with the blessing of the EU, I can tell you that for nothing.

eoin2nc wrote: »

The ignorance of some people.

Oh I agree.

eoin2nc wrote: »

1- Multinational corporations being attracted here due to our low taxes,educated workforca and, most important, acces to the EU markets

Most importantly my arse. It would have been much easier and made more sense to locate in the UK or other European country if you just wanted access to European markets. The low corporation tax was the main reason to come here.

eoin2nc wrote: »

2- The BILLIONS given to us by the EU to improve infrastructure

And what a legendary infrastructure we have to show for it. :rolleyes:

eoin2nc wrote: »

3- Irish firms being able to expand into the EU markets

You couldn't run off our numbers on the export based industries here in Ireland, could you? I think you might be in for a surprise.

eoin2nc wrote: »

Leaving the EU would be economic suicide.

I think maintaining interest in the single currency and trade agreements is important, but I don't think we need the full political involvement we have at the moment.

eoin2nc wrote: »

How long exactly would fish stocks in our water last as a matter of interest?

Fish stocks are livestock, they replenish themselves, assuming you don't overfish them, which is fairly easy to manage.

Duffman

ART6 wrote: »

C If the rising interest rates, the current strength of the Euro, and the endless bureaucracy and regulation cripple us, does anyone think they will even notice, or would have done even before the NO vote?

LOL. You're concerned about the effect of the strength of the Euro on the Irish economy? It fell to a three-year low immediately, as a direct consequence of the referendum result. Result!

ejmaztec

kraggy wrote: »

Yes, but just because people voted for a particular party in a particular country doesn't mean they agree with that party on this issue.

Not sure about mainland Europe, but here in Britain people are pissed that they didn't get to vote on Lisbon.

In a democracy, even party members don't agree with everything churned out by the party, it being taking the rough with the smooth.

In the UK, I think the Lisbon trouble has been stirred up by the Tories and the "Let's kick Gordon out" media. Of course, Labour shot themselves in the foot to start with, promised a referendum, then used some feeble excuse to back-track on it.

I think that on the whole, Britain has been a bigger PITA for the EU in the past, than Ireland is at the moment.

rossie1977

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Also companies not only came to Ireland becasue of the tax rate, it was because they were in the eu.

yeah thats why US and Asian multinationals are now moving their european headquarters to Switzerland not because of the extremely low corporate tax rates but because Switzerland are in the EU............. oh wait :rolleyes:

ruskin

Ireland voted no. Full stop. Surely even those of you who voted yes believe that this is a democracy and that the voice of the people should be respected? Zarcozy and Barosso's attitudes really show the complete arrogance and downright stubborn attitude of Europe, in that from their point of view its full steam ahead with Lisbon. The fact of the matter is, that Ireland voted no, and thus the Lisbon Treaty is dead. I now hope other member states who have not ratified the treaty begin to say that their is no point in ratifying the treaty given Ireland's no vote. We are already hearing this from the Czech president. If all the 26 other states voted for Lisbon, then I really think EU leaders would put pressure on us to vote again. However, I realistically think other countries will scrap Lisbon in the coming months.

Duffman

rossie1977 wrote: »

yeah thats why US and Asian multinationals are now moving their european headquarters to Switzerland not because of the extremely low corporate tax rates but because Switzerland are in the EU............. oh wait :rolleyes:

Switzerland has agreements with the EU that allow free access to the single market. So as far as these companies are concerned then yes, they might as well be in the EU. Also, examples?

Zzippy

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

How long exactly would fish stocks in our water last as a matter of interest?

Forever if they are managed properly and exploited at sustainable levels.
Problem is, our waters (out to 200 miles) are open to boats from other EU countries, with some small restrictions on number of foreign vessels allowed within 50 miles. Trawlers from other countries, notably Spain and France, have overfished most of our fish stocks. Yes, Irish boats have done so too, but at least Irish boats are subject to inspection and penalties for quota breaches. The Spanish government has continued to turn a blind eye to its boats taking more than their quota.
If you want to see how fish stocks can be sustainably managed and exploited, supporting a thriving and valuable industry, look at Iceland. The reason - they didn't join the EU so they kept their fishing waters to themselves and managed the resource properly. You won't see too many Spanish trawlers there!

rossie1977

Duffman wrote: »

Switzerland has agreements with the EU that allow free access to the single market. So as far as these companies are concerned then yes, they might as well be in the EU. Also, examples?

and we couldn't sign similiar agreements with the EU because..............

Yahoo moving from London; Nissan, Cadbury, Cisco, Ralph Lauren, Ebay (Global administrative headquarters), Hitachi and Philip Morris and Google just opened a massive research facility in Zurich

it won't be long until Intel, Microsoft etc follow

davyjose

eoin2nc wrote: »

The ignorance of some people.The Celtic Tiger was caused by:

1- Multinational corporations being attracted here due to our low taxes,educated workforca and, most important, acces to the EU markets

2- The BILLIONS given to us by the EU to improve infrastructure

3- Irish firms being able to expand into the EU markets


Anyone who thinks Ireland would have the economic growth it has experienced without the EU is mis-informed. Leaving the EU would be economic suicide.

And what is so different between that and the situation we have right now?

Tar.Aldarion

rossie1977 wrote: »

yeah thats why US and Asian multinationals are now moving their european headquarters to Switzerland not because of the extremely low corporate tax rates but because Switzerland are in the EU............. oh wait :rolleyes:

I see you have all your facts in order. 'oh wait'

utick

Stekelly wrote: »

Whats democratic about a quarter of 1% of the population of Europe deciding it's future?

i dont know whats democratic about it either, but the other leaders decided there people didnt have a say on it.

Over one million people voted on it in ireland, more people voted in ireland on the lisbon treaty than the rest of europe combined.

More people have voted no than have voted yes to this treaty throughout europe, maybe you dont like the result but democracy can be apain in the a$$ at times but it must be followed

Duffman

rossie1977 wrote: »

and we couldn't sign similiar agreements with the EU because..............

We realised that full membership might confer other benefits perhaps? A massive new market for our goods, influence far beyond our size in international affairs, structural funds, prosperity, unprecedented economic development, the best quality of life our citizens have ever enjoyed. I could go on, but the suggestion that we'd benefit from leaving the EU is stupid enough to speak for itself I think.

rossie1977 wrote: »

Yahoo moving from London; Nissan, Cadbury, Cisco, Ralph Lauren, Ebay (Global administrative headquarters), Hitachi and Philip Morris and Google just opened a massive research facility in Zurich

Well the first example is from London where costs are among the highest in the world, corporate tax is like 30% and it's um, not in Ireland.

I don't see what you're reading into Google's move either.

Guy:Incognito

ruskin wrote: »

Ireland voted no. Full stop. Surely even those of you who voted yes believe that this is a democracy and that the voice of the people should be respected? .

TBH the people didnt vote no for the lisbon treaty. There was more than enough of the no vote that were voting for reasons totally outside the treaty (didnt understand it/ want the foreigners out :eek: /anti vrt vote :rolleyes: etc) that if they had educated themselves or kept out of something they dont understand it would have went the other way.

People should be made take a test to show they understand somehting before they are allowed vote for or against it.

davyjose

Duffman wrote: »

Switzerland has agreements with the EU that allow free access to the single market. So as far as these companies are concerned then yes, they might as well be in the EU. Also, examples?

Except they don't have to ratify Treaties against the will of their citizens.....

Tar.Aldarion

davyjose wrote: »

Except they don't have to ratify Treaties against the will of their citizens.....

We have a say in the market they have to trade in and it's laws, they don't.

davyjose

Stekelly wrote: »

People should be made take a test to show they understand somehting before they are allowed vote for or against it.

That's bullshìt; that's your idea of democracy? At the end of the day, if half the NO voters voted due to a lack of understanding, it isn't their fault. This was NOT an easy treaty to understand and one of the most significant things was the fact that it was VERY obtuse. There was no way the normal punter could fully understand every single nuance of it.

davyjose

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

We have a say in the market they have to trade in and it's laws, they don't.

Ehhh, so they only sell chocolate and cuckoo clocks in Europe now? We have a very small say in part of the market they trade in. They don't have to trade anywhere they don't want.
And a huge part of their economy is based on tourism and banking, something the EU would have no say in. In fact, they would surely have destroyed the banking services on them, as they did here with the fishing and agricultural industry.

Duffman

davyjose wrote: »

That's bullshìt; that's your idea of democracy? At the end of the day, if half the NO voters voted due to a lack of understanding, it isn't their fault. This was NOT an easy treaty to understand and one of the most significant things was the fact that it was VERY obtuse. There was no way the normal punter could fully understand every single nuance of it.

You're right. You might even say it wasn't really a suitable subject for a referendum at all, precisely for the reasons you identify.

utick

Stekelly wrote: »

TBH the people didnt vote no for the lisbon treaty. There was more than enough of the no vote that were voting for reasons totally outside the treaty (didnt understand it/ want the foreigners out :eek: /anti vrt vote :rolleyes: etc) that if they had educated themselves or kept out of something they dont understand it would have went the other way.

People should be made take a test to show they understand somehting before they are allowed vote for or against it.

lol dont pretend there wasnt just as many people voting yes just because of party lines, or all the politicians told us too, or even the scaremongering from the yes side.

also the fact that sinn fein were for a no vote had to of given the yes side at least a 10% boost.

If you want to discount peples poor decision making for voting no you have to do the same for the yes side, and im sure if you did this the no side would have come out even further ahead

Guy:Incognito

davyjose wrote: »

That's bullshìt; that's your idea of democracy? At the end of the day, if half the NO voters voted due to a lack of understanding, it isn't their fault. .

Of course it's their fault. How many times have you google something (anything) to get information about it? Why is this any different.

utick wrote: »

also the fact that sinn fein were for a no vote had to of given the yes side at least a 10% boost.

If your talking about political voting, the es side had 95% of the voters to begin with so.

utick wrote: »

If you want to discount peples poor decision making for voting no you have to do the same for the yes side, and im sure if you did this the no side would have come out even further ahead

I seriously doubt that. I didnt hear so much as on eno voter (outside of boards) that had a solid reason for voting no. Be they the celelbrities that chimed up (Ben Dunne , Louis Walsh and Sinead O'cooner between them came up with "I dont understand it and "were beign rushed") or any of the average joes questioned in the media. Dont even get me starte don the peopl eI work with.

rossie1977

Duffman wrote: »

We realised that full membership might confer other benefits perhaps? A massive new market for our goods, influence far beyond our size in international affairs, structural funds, prosperity, unprecedented economic development, the best quality of life our citizens have ever enjoyed. I could go on, but the suggestion that we'd benefit from leaving the EU is stupid enough to speak for itself I think.

massive new market by joining the eu but Switzerland are the EU's third largest goods supplier and second largest customer and 25% of the Swiss workforce are EU citizens

most of your other points can be debated too but i don't have time e.g. quality of life is broken into 9 areas with job security and material well being the only two one could say the EU had a part to play. the likes of Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are all in the top 6 places in the world with the highest quality of life, all outside the EU

Well the first example is from London where costs are among the highest in the world, corporate tax is like 30% and it's um, not in Ireland.

yeah but Yahoo moved their base from a city with the highest concentration of skilled business people in the world to a country outside the EU, a country with low corporate taxes and highly educated workforce... concidence or not
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arybvtcw0eolkf

jayok wrote: »

To the people who voted to "Leave the EU". Care to say why? I can't see any advantage of doing this and I would like someone to explain the advantages.

I didn't vote (in this poll), until you posted this, then I did