GPS Device for cycling

FrankGrimes

Do many people here use a GPS for tracking cycling stats etc?

I'm going to buy a cycle computer shortly but have birthday coming up so if a GPS device is a worthwhile gadget to get, I might drop some hints.

If it happened to also be of use for directions in the car, that'd be a big bonus. But if it did things like show me total metres ascended/descended, speed, distance, route, heart rate etc. it might keep things interesting with the cycling I plan doing when I recover from recent and forthcoming surgery.

Online would probably give best deals, right? I'll be in Atlanta in July so could pick it up there if cheaper, or could get it posted to a friend in New York if needed. So any suggestions for brands and models to look, and also any particular features to go for, are much appreciated.

Dirk Gently

The latest garmin edge sounds like what you're looking for. Very expensive though. Earlier versions of the edge (205 / 305) are cheaper but don't have a directions feature. I wanted one of these for ages but to be honest I got by with OS maps and street guides and now don't even need those as I know plenty of routes at this stage. Saved myself a fortune (price of a bike) doing it the old fashioned way.

I'd still love to have one but am not willing to pay so much for something that isn't really essential for my needs.

cyclopath2001

Directions feature on GPS is not very useful for cycling as while you can tell it to keep you off motorways, it's only interested in finding the quickest or most direct route for you, not the route you would choose. That and, missing roads (especially the small ones), wrong coordinates and an annoying emphisis on road numbers rather than town names make GPS cumbersome.

The training gadgets like the Garmin 305 don't do directions but will record your activitity and you can overlay the details onto Google Earth when you get back.

blorg

I have an Edge 305 and it's great (when it works, they are quite tempremental.) Doesn't do mapping though. You can pre-program a route into it and it will give you notification of where to go at the turns. This is a bit fiddly but it does basically work (used it on the Mick Byrne 200 and the W200 last year.) Nothing like a car GPS though, if you go off course it will just tell you that you are "X metres from course", it can't recalculate the route.

Was talking to someone with a 705 on this year's W200- he said it was not worth the upgrade. The mapping on the 705 is very expensive (more so than a cheap car GPS) and the screen small compared to a car navigation GPS. You will get a 305 a lot cheaper now that the 705 is out. (Note despite this advice I will probably upgrade myself anyway ;-)

So while they don't really do route direction/mapping, they do plot your progress very well- you can really get a handle on how you are improving (or disimproving!) On the bike itself, heart rate, altitude, grade and cadence are very nice to have.

cyclopath's points are valid although on "car" navigation GPSes you can get around this by setting "via" points. I have brought a "car" GPS with me on a long cycle where I didn't know the way before and it was marginally useful but in this particular circumstance a map was better. One thing I did find handy was how it could tell me upcoming distances, so I could figure out that taking this road rather than that road added 20km to the journey, etc. Battery life was a big concern as it only did 3 hours (I guess most of them expect to be plugged in to a cigarette lighter.)

Raam

I have the Garmin Forerunner 305. It is designed for use when running and cycling. It requires a separate bike mount, but it can be easily mounted to the handlebars with out it. It's a great piece of kit. There is a newer version out now, 405, which looks neater.

copacetic

Raam wrote: »

I have the Garmin Forerunner 305. It is designed for use when running and cycling. It requires a separate bike mount, but it can be easily mounted to the handlebars with out it. It's a great piece of kit. There is a newer version out now, 405, which looks neater.

I have the forerunner 305 too, but on the bike it isn't really that much better than a bike computer with heart rate imo. Although you can get a wireless cadence sensor to go with it.

Was looking at the 405 myself, a little nicer but not sure can justify the upgrade. 305s aren't getting much on ebay, guess could use it as a bike mounted one the whole time.

EH

You should consider a Nokia N95 mobile. It comes with built in GPS and street level maps. You can download the Nokia Sports Tracker free from there web site which give you the ability to track your rides, create routes and then export them to Google Earth. There's no heart monitor and unless you get a GPS with a separate altimeter the height gain will be very inaccurate. It also displays your speed, distance etc on the screen. Check out the below review:

http://www.s60.com/life/application/featured/news?action=archiveNews&whatshot=1&pbId=64&appweek=1&hotNewsId=401

The fact that Nokia are about to release the N96 and the recent release of the iphone 3G will mean the N95's will come down in price soon.

EH

Raam

copacetic wrote: »

I have the forerunner 305 too, but on the bike it isn't really that much better than a bike computer with heart rate imo. Although you can get a wireless cadence sensor to go with it.

Was looking at the 405 myself, a little nicer but not sure can justify the upgrade. 305s aren't getting much on ebay, guess could use it as a bike mounted one the whole time.

Mostly I bought it for the HRM, cadence and the ability to keep a log of what I've done.
Map-wise, it's basic. It can be useful, but I wouldn't rely on it.

copacetic

Raam wrote: »

Mostly I bought it for the HRM, cadence and the ability to keep a log of what I've done.
Map-wise, it's basic. It can be useful, but I wouldn't rely on it.

never used the map and didn't buy the cadence myself. not at the level where I need it really. Have stopped using the hrm myself too.

What I like about it most is having a record of all running and cycling without any effort. Just remember to wear it and thats it, sync it once or twice a month and you can't fool yourself about how much you think you have done.

How do you mount yours on the bars? Mine doesn't fit, too loose, even when on last hole. was gonna buy a timex mount for 5 quid or something to fit it on?

Raam

copacetic wrote: »

How do you mount yours on the bars? Mine doesn't fit, too loose, even when on last hole. was gonna buy a timex mount for 5 quid or something to fit it on?

I've stopped using the HRM too, it's freezing when you put it on!

I used to strap the watch around my light mount on the handlebars, but that got annoying, so I ordered one of these from Amazon. It is much more practical as it allows you to clip the watch on very easily. It requires that you completely remove the existing straps from the watch, however, it comes with a velcro strap that you can wear on your wrist, and then just clip the watch on to in the same way as you would to the handlebar mount.
When I ordered, Amazon weren't shipping some stuff to Ireland, so I had to get it sent to a mate in the UK.

Diarmuid

copacetic wrote: »

How do you mount yours on the bars? Mine doesn't fit, too loose, even when on last hole. was gonna buy a timex mount for 5 quid or something to fit it on?

I just taped some foam (1-2 inches thick) onto my handlebars and then mounted the 305 onto the foam. It doesn't cost anything and it works. Doesn't look great though

copacetic

Diarmuid wrote: »

I just taped some foam (1-2 inches thick) onto my handlebars and then mounted the 305 onto the foam. It doesn't cost anything and it works. Doesn't look great though

couldn't do that, it's all about the bling!

paddyb

ive got a polar cs400. its cheaper than the garmin and has much better battery life.

FrankGrimes

Wow, thanks for all the info on this lads, seems like there's plenty of options.

I reckon a Garmin Forerunner 305 is looking like the best option cos the price is quite reasonable and it does a lot of what I'm interested in and though it doesn't do all I mentioned, to be honest I don't do enough cycling to warrant the extra spend.

Plus, it has the added bonus of being useful for running too. Will it show me speed in miles/km per hour without having to get the extra cadence/speed kit?

When you mention the 305 is going cheap on ebay, which ebay site do you mean? I rarely use ebay cos I find it too much hassle to figure out final price cos they fleece you on shipping, but if there's a good enough deal that's worth it, I might go for it. Otherwise, I might look for an online US store that will ship to Ireland to see if the exchange rate means I can get it for around €150.

Raam

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Wow, thanks for all the info on this lads, seems like there's plenty of options

You're very welcome.

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Will it show me speed in miles/km per hour without having to get the extra cadence/speed kit?

Yup, it will.

copacetic

paddyb wrote: »

ive got a polar cs400. its cheaper than the garmin and has much better battery life.

it is actually a lot dearer that the forerunner 305 at the moment. it has better battery life because it isn't gps, so you need to ft sensors on the bike and it isn't any good for running imo.

The garmin is much easier to use and more versatile..

TinyExplosions

EH wrote: »

You should consider a Nokia N95 mobile. It comes with built in GPS and street level maps. You can download the Nokia Sports Tracker free from there web site which give you the ability to track your rides, create routes and then export them to Google Earth. There's no heart monitor and unless you get a GPS with a separate altimeter the height gain will be very inaccurate. It also displays your speed, distance etc on the screen. Check out the below review:

http://www.s60.com/life/application/featured/news?action=archiveNews&whatshot=1&pbId=64&appweek=1&hotNewsId=401

The fact that Nokia are about to release the N96 and the recent release of the iphone 3G will mean the N95's will come down in price soon.

EH

Sounds like a great plan that, and I have an N95 so may try some of it out -only thing I can foresee is battery life being an issue, and doesn't the gps stuff rely on a data connection too (to gprs or something)? (I'm not sure cos I've not really played with the gps in it yet, but I'll have to now!)

EH

I agree that battery life is an issue, the N95 8gig version (black one thats selling now) went some way to solving the battery issue but I find that after 2 hours with the GPS on the battery is starting to run low on my N95.
The Sportstracker doesn't use any phone network only the GPS signal. The maps program (Nokia GPS mapping software) asks you to enable network access when you turn on the program and I always say no. Its seems to work OK.

blorg

Diarmuid wrote: »

I just taped some foam (1-2 inches thick) onto my handlebars and then mounted the 305 onto the foam. It doesn't cost anything and it works. Doesn't look great though

I was going to suggest this- saw someone with this setup in the W200 (could have been you?)

copacetic

the bling blorg, the bling. for the babes and stuff.

blorg

copacetic wrote: »

the bling blorg, the bling. for the babes and stuff.

But the foam will protect my carbon handlebars! No, you are right, obviously I would never do this myself ;-)

FrankGrimes- if you want to use it for running too get the Forerunner, as it is multi-sport and does all the cycling stuff as well. If you are only using it on the bike though get the Edge as the display is twice the size and it can display twice as much stuff on the screen at once (max 8 items vs. max 4 items - I have it displaying 5, one big number taking up half the screen (HR) and 4 other items- elevation, cadence, grade and lap distance. I have a Cateye that does speed and the other normal stuff (time, avg speed, total distance etc.)

FrankGrimes

Thanks for pointing that out blorg - so is the only difference between the Edge 305 and Forerunner 305 the screensize and amount of info it can display on screen? I reckon I'll be going for the Forerunner in the hope that I get use out of it for some running too if so.

What features does your Cateye do that your Edge 305 does not, or do you just have it so you can see more info at the same time (i.e. info that the 305 actually does support)?

The Nokia N95 sounds like an interesting option alright, but I get my phone and bill paid by work so would be paying for it but only using it for this functionality, so I'll leave that go, good idea though.

blorg

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Thanks for pointing that out blorg - so is the only difference between the Edge 305 and Forerunner 305 the screensize and amount of info it can display on screen? I reckon I'll be going for the Forerunner in the hope that I get use out of it for some running too if so.

Effectively, yes- but the Edge doesn't do running, while the Forerunner does both running and cycling.

What features does your Cateye do that your Edge 305 does not, or do you just have it so you can see more info at the same time (i.e. info that the 305 actually does support)?

Cateye doesn't do anything the Edge doesn't do, except not run out of batteries ;-) It is there just as it is cheap (under €20) to see more info at once, and as a backup when the Edge runs out (happens often enough :-( )

FrankGrimes

Good stuff, I'll start the search for best price on the Forerunner 305 so....and will dig out a bit of piping insulation from the shed for taping to the handlebars cos my SCR 2.0 don't mind being a Sonia (she ain't the prettiest but she keeps on running and running).

I'll post back with the best price I find just in case there's others that might read this thread and find it of interest. Have to say it's a great forum ye have going here lads and ladies cos there's clearly plenty of hardcore cyclists here but everyone takes the time to help out newbies like myself - fair play.

Rein-in

FrankGrimes wrote: »

...I'll start the search for best price on the Forerunner 305 so....

Have a look on dabs.ie, it's €195 there, compared to €390 in Argos stores. Shop around.

jesus_thats_gre

I use the Nokia N95i when out cycling.. Also use the Sports Tracker software from Nokia for tracking my route, speed and so on.. You can upload them to sportstracker.nokia.com. It is extremely good.

Diarmuid

blorg wrote: »

I was going to suggest this- saw someone with this setup in the W200 (could have been you?)

No that wasn't me.

Another big advantage of the Edge 305 is that is has a barometric altimeter so the elevation data is a lot more accurate. Very useful if you climb a lot of mountains.

FrankGrimes

Diarmuid wrote: »

No that wasn't me.

Another big advantage of the Edge 305 is that is has a barometric altimeter so the elevation data is a lot more accurate. Very useful if you climb a lot of mountains.

mmm, that might change things alright - I defo like the idea of knowing how steep a climb is. The Forerunner 305 does not have a barometric altimeter so will it just not be able to give me this info at all or will it be able to give it but just in a less accurate manner?

penexpers

Just to give the flipside, I used to have a pretty decent bike computer on my bike with a hrm and now I've stopped using it completely. I think they restrict you somewhat because you're always keeping one eye on the speed and not on the road. Ever since I stopped using it, I've found the spins to be much more enjoyable. What I do instead is keep a rough idea of how long it took me and work out how far the spin was using mapmyride.com and work out a very average speed from there. I find this is more than enough for me.

copacetic

I never really look at mine during the ride, at the moment it is usually in a pocket or on my wirst. I just like it for recording everything more than anything else.

Raam

FrankGrimes wrote: »

mmm, that might change things alright - I defo like the idea of knowing how steep a climb is. The Forerunner 305 does not have a barometric altimeter so will it just not be able to give me this info at all or will it be able to give it but just in a less accurate manner?

Yes, it does, but I don't know how it measures it. One feature it does not have, is cumulated climbing, i.e. the amount you have climbed in total. It will show grade.

FrankGrimes

Thanks Raam, I reckon that might swing me towards the Edge 305 so - I don't do a whole lot of climbing but I'm defo planning on doing more and I'm pretty competitive with myself so knowing how much I've climbed overall in each ride, along with the time taken to do it, will help me push myself.

Even in my days of cycling from Firhouse into town for college, I'd set a few split points along my route and use those to gauge how I was doing with my Cateye and push on from there - reckon that was key in me getting the time down to 18 mins 21 seconds from Firhouse to Trinity front-gate....my next target will be Woodstown roundabout to the viewpoint beyond the Hell Fire club in 14 minutes and I'll take it from there I guess.

Raam

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Thanks Raam, I reckon that might swing me towards the Edge 305 so - I don't do a whole lot of climbing but I'm defo planning on doing more and I'm pretty competitive with myself so knowing how much I've climbed overall in each ride, along with the time taken to do it, will help me push myself.

It's only a small feature I think, but if it leads you to the Edge, then go for it. You won't be sorry no matter which one you buy. I know that the Forerunner is a great piece of kit, and reports are that the Edge is super too.

blorg

Just to throw a spanner in the works there- there are online services that will correct the elevation data based on the GPS tracks (e.g. they have a map with elevation.) So you can get good data _after_ even without a barometric altimeter.

Having said that, I wouldn't be without it, the barometric altimeter on the Edge is very useful indeed as an on-the-bike tool- I often program in routes with tags for the peaks, so I know even with unfamiliar routes how much climbing I have left. And on routes done before I know how much to the top.

Diarmuid

blorg wrote: »

Just to throw a spanner in the works there- there are online services that will correct the elevation data based on the GPS tracks (e.g. they have a map with elevation.) So you can get good data _after_ even without a barometric altimeter.

The Forerunner 305 estimates the elevation based on the gps location. As a result of this each successive point can vary quite a lot (for accurate elevation data). The result of this is that the absolute values are accurate enough (ie bottom of hill is shown as 350m but it might be 360m etc) but the cummulative data is useless. After climbing from 300 to 900m it might tell you that you have climbed 1100. The software correction on Motionbased is pretty poor.Here is a cycle I did yesterday. The elevation data should be about 2630m but is maked as 5487m! Way off!

Get the Forerunner if you plan on using it for running as well as cycling, if not definately get the Edge.

I wouldn't use any phone as a gps device. It wouldn't stand up to the elements (ie rain)

I would really miss my HRM if I didn't have it. The gps is more for analysing rides after the fact.

FrankGrimes

I'm going to go with the Edge 305 and have found it in a couple of places on ebay.com that will ship to Ireland.

I'm going to go for a refurbished one cos the price is so good and the feedback from other purchasers of the refurbs is very good.

It will work out at €168 delivered including insurance and that includes the cadence/speed sensor and the heart-rate monitor, so it's a very good price.

Gavin

Wow, that's a great price. Where is it from ?

FrankGrimes

Here is the link

blorg

That is an exceedingly good price. Worth bearing in mind that it will NOT have a warranty despite what the seller claims (Garmin refuse to warranty any product from eBay, even if it was new- discovered this when my own one had to go back to them) but at that price I don't think I'd be complaining.

blorg

Bear in mind also that you may get caught for VAT and duty which would add €50/60 depending on carrier clearance charges. You are least likely to get caught if it is sent by normal post.

TinyExplosions

Also bear in mind that it's listed as a refurb, not as a new one

cyclopath2001

Diarmuid wrote: »

I wouldn't use any phone as a gps device. It wouldn't stand up to the elements (ie rain)

The GPS will chew the battery and you might need some juice in the phone if you need to call for air support.

FrankGrimes

Yeh, I always reckon with these kind of things it needs to be a very good price to justify the hassle involved in returning it or not being able to return it at all and possible customs charges, but in this case the price does justify it so I'm giving it a go. Hopefully with it being a refurb, an early issues had occurred before it was refurbed, that can be a hidden benefit of refurbs but we'll wait and see.

blorg

I got a refurb back from Garmin after I sent my faulty one back and it looked pretty new, I think they actually slap a brand new casing on the refurbs. As to reliability, it had the latest firmware on and has been generally better than the last one but have had the battery charging/not wanting to turn on/garmin three finger salute thing. Also it has started up in diagnostic mode a few times saying that some internal test had failed; also had a problem a few days back where it would not find any satellites at all, and sometimes it doesn't like to recognise the cadence sensor. But this is all part of the fun of owning a Garmin, they are great when they work!

Caroline_ie

I was thinking of getting ethe Nokia 6110 with my upgrade ... is it good enough not to get lost on the WW when I train on my own ...?

FrankGrimes

Alrighty then, I'm back on my feet after a long lay off and ready to start easing back into some cycling. I have my Garmin Edge 305 installed and I think it's setup correctly (my tires say 700 x 25C on the side so judging by the tyre size table in the manual I set it up as 2105mm circumference).

Thanks to this thread, I've figured out how to plot a course and have done a dummy one just around my neighbourhood and will download to the 305 when I get home this evening.

I've a couple load of question on how to use it that I'm not clear on though despite reading the manual a few times.

When using a normal bike computer, no matter what I do, the odometer is always capturing my total distance - as long as I press Start and have the timer running will the 305 do this?

If I do just a basic cycle by clicking Start and getting it to start showing whatever data fields I have selected, will I be able to track this data and elevation profile when I download to my laptop?

I'll download my commuting route to work on it from mapmyride.com but let's say I decide to cycle home a different route - as long as the timer is running will I then be able to select that route afterwards and save it as an alternative Course?

On my commute to work, I'd like to set some interval points to track interim performance against - do I just press Lap at these points?

I set my route to work as an Out&Back course, when I get to work do I stop the timer and then just start it again when I'm heading home or do I need to create separate one way courses?

Am I right in thinking the basic functionality or Courses are what I'll mainly need and Workouts and Routes will be only every now and then?

Does the battery drain when turned off (i.e. if I charge tonight and leave it in my bag overnight, will it be much drained by the time I use tomorrow)?

blorg

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Alrighty then, I'm back on my feet after a long lay off and ready to start easing back into some cycling. I have my Garmin Edge 305 installed and I think it's setup correctly (my tires say 700 x 25C on the side so judging by the tyre size table in the manual I set it up as 2105mm circumference).

You don't need to worry about setting the tyre size, it works off the satellites and figures this out for itself.

When using a normal bike computer, no matter what I do, the odometer is always capturing my total distance - as long as I press Start and have the timer running will the 305 do this?

As long as you press start (and it has a GPS lock.) If you forget to, it will not record.

If I do just a basic cycle by clicking Start and getting it to start showing whatever data fields I have selected, will I be able to track this data and elevation profile when I download to my laptop?

Yes. Note what it records is not connected to what data fields you are displaying, you can not display a field and it will still record it.

I'll download my commuting route to work on it from mapmyride.com but let's say I decide to cycle home a different route - as long as the timer is running will I then be able to select that route afterwards and save it as an alternative Course?

Yes, it always records where you actually go even if you are following a course and go off it.

On my commute to work, I'd like to set some interval points to track interim performance against - do I just press Lap at these points?

That will work, although you can select any part of your route in the Garmin software (or SportTracks, which is better) to see time/distance/averages.

I set my route to work as an Out&Back course, when I get to work do I stop the timer and then just start it again when I'm heading home or do I need to create separate one way courses?

I wouldn't bother, I'd just cycle it and save that as two courses. You will get better accuracy that way and less "off course" messages.

Am I right in thinking the basic functionality or Courses are what I'll mainly need and Workouts and Routes will be only every now and then?

Depends how you use the thing. I mainly use it to record where I have gone, elevation profiles, etc. Occasionally plot a course I haven't done before (like the W200, Mick Byrne 200, etc.) and put in the stops, towns, controls, summits etc. so I know how far I have to the top. Sometimes use the virtual partner- that is a good one for gauging improvements.

Does the battery drain when turned off (i.e. if I charge tonight and leave it in my bag overnight, will it be much drained by the time I use tomorrow)?

If it if off, no, the battery does not drain much (no more than any lithium ion battery.) If you have it on but not recording the battery will be draining at the normal rate however. I get about 10 hours out of mine. you get into the habit of charging frequently. It is handy that it works of USB power.

FrankGrimes

Hey Blorg - I've mostly been away with work since this post - many thanks for the great info, much appreciated it.

Think I have it figured out now, though there's a few things niggling.

I thought that when I wanted to do a course I could just hit 'Do Course' and then the timer would start when I get to the start of the course, but it seems the timer starts running before I get to the course - is that right?

I've figured out how to plot a course on mapmyrides.com and import, but how do you save a course by selecting a route you've just cycled?

What advantages do you see in SportsTrack over Garmin software? I can't figure out how to upload routes to the device from SportsTrack so wouldn't like to have to use 2 apps unless there was a big difference.

Mapping the top of a climb as an interval sounds like a great idea and would really help the struggle up the last bits, but how do you do it?

No worries if this game of 20 questions has worn you down, but thanks for any pointers....we could maybe add this thread to the wiki as it's fairly comprehensive at this stage.

FrankGrimes

So after re-reading the manual a couple of times (it could be more straightforward), it seems that when you select Do Course you should start the timer and it will only start tracking your performance (for the virtual partner) on the course when you actually get there. Makes sense in one way but not in another - I'd prefer to see my actual time on the course so far instead of having to gauge how I'm doing against the virtual partner (i.e. my previous best time). Maybe I'm missing something, but I think I'll only start the timer when I get to the course.

Other than that it seems Routes aren't very useful as they just map a straight line between 2 points, and I'll probably use Courses for planned workouts as I'm more likely to have a particular journey I want to do instead of simple time and distance targets which is more suited to the gym.

So, I won't be using much of the functions, but it's still a very useful tool as I do like seeing the cadence and altitude info - if I could figure out how to include hilltops on my course and have it show me how far I have left on the climb, that's when it would really come into its own.

blorg

SportTracks shows good maps, etc and is just a bit more polished all round, but you can't use it to edit courses, etc.

If you have a course in the Garmin Training Center software you can select points on it and add a marker. I generally do this with the course open with the elevation profile- I'll click on the top of the hill on the profile, that will then highlight the section on the map and you can click to add an information point ("summit") - when doing the course one of the fields is "distance to next" point. You need to add the points on the map view rather than the profile.

FrankGrimes

Cheers Blorg, I'll give that a shot for sure.

Yeh, I could see SportsTrack has a nicer UI straightaway (the Garmin one is pretty poor tbh) but was wondering if there was major functionality differences, doesn't seem to be.

I have it setup to use my speed sensor instead of the GPS as I reckoned that would be more accurate - the GPS has a large margin of error at times - am I missing something?

I had to a bit of a hack job when installing the cadence sensor - there's a lot of space between the inside of my pedal crank and the sensor sitting on the frame. I had to cut a little piece of timber and put the magnet on that and then cable tie it secure. Am sure it'll come off sooner or later but it's doing the job for the minute and I'm sure I can afford the milliseconds the extra drag is losing me