Should we leave the EU?

Kev_ps3 · 13-06-2008 1:36pm #1

Now that the Irish people had the courage to reject the Treaty should we leave the EU and become an Independent country again?
I think it is. Taking orders from other countrys is not something any patriot should support.

Pal · 13-06-2008 1:37pm

in before the lock

marco_polo · 13-06-2008 1:38pm

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Now that the Irish people had the courage to reject the Treaty should we leave the EU and become an Independent country again?
I think it is. Taking orders from other countrys is not someone any patriot should support.

If we do we should have to pay all those grants back.

13-06-2008 1:40pm

1. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
2. No.
3. See 1.

Rb · 13-06-2008 1:41pm

marco_polo wrote: »

If we do we should have to pay all those grants back.

The money raped from our fishing industry should cover it.

Kev: It was a vote against the treaty, not Europe. People can still be pro-Europe and anti-treaty, if you can't understand that then you should keep quiet tbh.

dog-man-star · 13-06-2008 1:42pm

of course we shouldn't leave Europe, this was not an anti-Europe vote. People voted no because they didn't know what they were voting yes for. The yes campaign gave no explanations as to what would happen and this lack of information made people vote no. I'm confident the Irish people would not vote to leave Europe.

gandalf · 13-06-2008 1:43pm

Did the French and Dutch leave after they rejected the constitution :rolleyes:

Rb · 13-06-2008 1:44pm

gandalf wrote: »

Did the French and Dutch leave after they rejected the constitution :rolleyes:

Exactly.

I have to say though, this "omgz it's the end of the world" reaction is quite comical though:)

BMH · 13-06-2008 1:44pm

Rb wrote: »

The money raped from our fishing industry should cover it.

Remember that time I asked for a source for that and you refused? I think it was around 10 minutes ago, but you're back at it already.

marco_polo · 13-06-2008 1:44pm

Rb wrote: »

The money raped from our fishing industry should cover it.

Kev: It was a vote against the treaty, not Europe. People can still be pro-Europe and anti-treaty, if you can't understand that then you should keep quiet tbh.

So they have fished hundreds of billions of euros have they :rolleyes:. The OP asked the question sa to whether or not we should leave, not me. I am saying if were independent then we would pay our own way.

Do you tell everyone who has a different opinion to you to keep quiet?

mike65 · 13-06-2008 1:44pm

We can't leave.

Had the Lisbon referendum been passed then Ireland could have, at the moment there is no mechanism to allow it but Lisbon made provision for leaving.

Ironing or what?

Mike.

eoin2nc · 13-06-2008 1:45pm

This is one of the worst suggestions I have ever heard.

Do you know how many people would be made unemployed if we left the EU?

RB do you really think the fishing industry would been able to replace the thousnads of jobs lost if the US multinationals pulled out, due to us leaving the EU?

You really dont have a clue, do you?

kevteljeur · 13-06-2008 1:46pm

marco_polo wrote: »

If we do we should have to pay all those grants back.

Absolutely, we would have to, and to lose the euro too. We would suddenly be in a position of having to reinforce borders to all EU countries (including the UK), no longer have free access to European markets for our goods or business, and countless EU citizens would need to apply for citizenship, visas or need to leave.

There would no longer be financial support for the Irish economy, and we would once again be a very small, isolated country out in the cold in a world which doesn't have an awful of time for isolationist loners.

The world isn't very stable right now and small, powerless countries like Ireland need to know who their friends are.

Sherifu · 13-06-2008 1:49pm

mike65 wrote: »

We can't leave.

Had the Lisbon referendum been passed then Ireland could have, at the moment there is no mechanism to allow it but Lisbon made provision for leaving.

Ironing or what?

Mike.

Now that's comedy.

brianthebard · 13-06-2008 1:50pm

Rb wrote: »

Exactly.

I have to say though, this "omgz it's the end of the world" reaction is quite comical though:)

Posted via Mobile Device

brianthebard · 13-06-2008 1:51pm

Rb wrote: »

Exactly.

I have to say though, this "omgz it's the end of the world" reaction is quite comical though:)

absolutely.
almost worth voting no to see the overreaction.Posted via Mobile Device

Kev_ps3 · 13-06-2008 1:53pm

We might lose a bit of money but we could be glad to know that we are running our own country. We can be a good well off country on our own. Dont believe the lies that we cant survive unless there is some suger daddy like the EU leaning over us.

Rb · 13-06-2008 1:54pm

BMH wrote: »

Remember that time I asked for a source for that and you refused? I think it was around 10 minutes ago, but you're back at it already.

Hit search and find it yourself. It's been mentioned enough over the past few weeks that had you been paying attention you would have seen it. I don't need to go googling to link an article for you tbh.

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-06-2008 1:55pm

We don't need to leave the European Union if they respect democracy and the rights of ALL NATIONS.

If they do not, and recent reports indicate they want to press ahead anyway which shows how they view democracy, then perhaps withdrawal is an option that should be left on the table imo.

I do not wish to be part of an entity that does not respect my democratic values. The Treaty itself declared that they believed in such values:

Every citizen shall have the right to participate in the democratic life of the Union. Decisions shall be taken as openly and as closely as possible to the citizen.

Now are they true to their word or will they press ahead despite the concerns of EU citrizens? We shall see.

Ritchi · 13-06-2008 1:55pm

mike65 wrote: »

We can't leave.

Had the Lisbon referendum been passed then Ireland could have, at the moment there is no mechanism to allow it but Lisbon made provision for leaving.

Ironing or what?

Mike.

Ha, that's brilliant.

eoin2nc · 13-06-2008 1:56pm

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

We might lose a bit of money but we could be glad to know that we are running our own country. We can be a good well off country on our own. Dont believe the lies that we cant survive unless there is some suger daddy like the EU leaning over us.

A bit of money? Do you know how many people are employed in this country by US multinationals, just so they can export in the EU markets?

How are we not running our own country?

Look at the state of this country before it joined the EU and it should give you an accurate picture of what it would be like if we left

Rb · 13-06-2008 1:57pm

eoin2nc wrote: »

RB do you really think the fishing industry would been able to replace the thousnads of jobs lost if the US multinationals pulled out, due to us leaving the EU?

You really dont have a clue, do you?

We won't be leaving the EU so what does it matter?

Also lol at you and your silly little attitude.

CerebralCortex · 13-06-2008 1:57pm

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Now that the Irish people had the courage to reject the Treaty should we leave the EU and become an Independent country again?
I think it is. Taking orders from other countrys is not something any patriot should support.

What motivates you man?

eoin2nc · 13-06-2008 1:58pm

Rb wrote: »

Hit search and find it yourself. It's been mentioned enough over the past few weeks that had you been paying attention you would have seen it. I don't need to go googling to link an article for you tbh.

So the fishing indutry would be able to employ everyone in Microsoft,Dell,Intel,Whyeth ect who wolud lose their jobs?

70% of this country is employed in the services sector, which is totally dependent on the EU.

Do you know anything about your own economy?

Well thats just my 'silly atitude' to the EU

minidazzler · 13-06-2008 1:59pm

We should leave the EU in my opinion. But not because I don't like the EU, because I don't think we are of any benefit to the EU. We are and always have been a country of takers, yet we complain about giving a little back. Just think back to hen more countries joined the EU. Irish people complained that we would have to give grants to those countries.

We are of no benefit and we are holding back Europe. Why don't we just throw in the towel and pay them all the money back and see if we can stay afloat on our own.

kevteljeur · 13-06-2008 1:59pm

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

We might lose a bit of money but we could be glad to know that we are running our own country. We can be a good well off country on our own. Dont believe the lies that we cant survive unless there is some suger daddy like the EU leaning over us.

"might lose a bit of money" is a bit of an understatement. More than a few people like to overlook that Ireland's temporary prosperity owes more than a little to our friends over on the continent. They subsidised it. They helped to channel it in the right directions so that Ireland became a good place in which to do business. Now, what you're suggesting is that if Ireland is outside the EU, no longer has access to those markets, that foreign investment has a reason to stay here and not go to Eastern European countries, which are now far more competitive than Ireland. The competitive advantage that Ireland used to have, of a very cheap, well-educated workforce, is gone.

You're clearly not paying a mortgage, because if you were then like many people here you would fear a wage drop that put you in a position of earning less than half your outgoings, and that's what would happen if Ireland left Europe. And it would happen within weeks.

O'Morris · 13-06-2008 2:02pm

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Now that the Irish people had the courage to reject the Treaty should we leave the EU and become an Independent country again?
I think it is. Taking orders from other countrys is not something any patriot should support.

Yes, I think we should leave the EU. Maybe not straight-away, but as a long-term goal I would like to see us taking steps to becoming an independent country again.

In the short-term we should consider transferring our membership from the EU to the EFTA.

mike65 wrote:

We can't leave.

What do you mean by that? Why can't we leave?

VinLieger · 13-06-2008 2:02pm

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

We might lose a bit of money but we could be glad to know that we are running our own country. We can be a good well off country on our own. Dont believe the lies that we cant survive unless there is some suger daddy like the EU leaning over us.

Im sorry but i have to ask this. Are you even old enough to vote?
Because the arguments you are coming out with sound like something a 12 year old would say.

Zube · 13-06-2008 2:04pm

VinLieger wrote: »

Because the arguments you are coming out with sound like something a 12 year old would say.

Par for the course on the "No" side.

minidazzler · 13-06-2008 2:05pm

O'Morris wrote: »

Yes, I think we should leave the EU. Maybe not straight-away, but as a long-term goal I would like to see us taking steps to becoming an independent country again.

We were an "independant" Country for all of 50 years max. and they were pretty piss poor times.

We cannot survive on our own no matter how long we wait.

kevteljeur · 13-06-2008 2:05pm

eoin2nc wrote: »

So the fishing indutry would be able to employ everyone in Microsoft,Dell,Intel,Whyeth ect who wolud lose their jobs?

70% of this country is employed in the services sector, which is totally dependent on the EU.

Do you know anything about your own economy?

No, you're wrong, uncontrolled over-fishing of rapidly diminishing stocks* is the way forward. And then after that we can try and go back to farming, and live off the land. Not in an efficient practical way like the EU we'd suddenly be competing with, or like Brazil with farms the size of Irish provinces, but with bits of land left over from after corrupt, mismanaged planning processes.

Hell, we'd be great on our own! I can't wait!

*Our weak, penniless government would of course pay for the fuel.

marco_polo · 13-06-2008 2:05pm

O'Morris wrote: »

Yes, I think we should leave the EU. Maybe not straight-away, but as a long-term goal I would like to see us taking steps to becoming an independent country again.

In the short-term we should consider transferring our membership from the EU to the EFTA.

What do you mean by that? Why can't we leave?

How would joining the EFTA benefit us? Implementing practally all of the EU legislation without having any of the voting rights.

VoidStarNull · 13-06-2008 2:05pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

We don't need to leave the European Union if they respect democracy and the rights of ALL NATIONS.

If they do not, and recent reports indicate they want to press ahead anyway which shows how they view democracy, then perhaps withdrawal is an option that should be left on the table imo.

I do not wish to be part of an entity that does not respect my democratic values. The Treaty itself declared that they believed in such values

Hang on a sec, isn't that the treaty we just voted against?

kevteljeur · 13-06-2008 2:09pm

O'Morris wrote: »

Yes, I think we should leave the EU. Maybe not straight-away, but as a long-term goal I would like to see us taking steps to becoming an independent country again.

This isn't a world that has a lot of time for a notionally independent country of just 4 million people, who won't be able to participate in the powerful economic bloc right next to it. Ireland will be economically steam-rollered. You will see mass emigration once again, and our so-called neutrality will be sold off in no time.

VinLieger · 13-06-2008 2:09pm

I honestly dont think people realise how isolated we would be if we left the EU. We are a tiny island on the very edge of europe with a population of about 5-6 million. If we left europe our economy would be decimated we wouldnt be able to cope with the massive increase in import/export prices for one and there would be a myriad of other costs as well. And before anyone asks i voted no.

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-06-2008 2:10pm

VoidStarNull wrote: »

Hang on a sec, isn't that the treaty we just voted against?

The one they wouldn't allow anyone else in the EU have a vote on you mean? Uh, no. It's not.

mike65 · 13-06-2008 2:10pm

What do you mean by that? Why can't we leave?

fromk bbc

An exit clause allowing member states to leave the European Union if they choose has been agreed by the majority of delegates at a convention on Europe's future.

Under current EU treaties, there is no acknowledged way of withdrawing from the Union.

The Convention - which is drafting a future constitution for the EU - has now completed two days of public debate on institutional issues and will meet again next month.

It is due to present a draft constitutional treaty to a European summit in June.

The proposed exit clause would allow any member state to withdraw from the EU.

The procedure would be legally and politically complicated and it would take at least two years.

But a majority of delegates at the Convention argued that a democratic body should allow countries to leave if they want.

Representatives of countries where opposition to the EU is strong, like Britain and Denmark, said the exit clause would undermine eurosceptic arguments that they were trapped in the EU with no escape.

Mike.

Phototoxin · 13-06-2008 2:11pm

People voted no because they didn't know what they were voting yes

Im so sick of this sh*t.

Ever consider that people voted no because they WANTED to and that that's all that matters in a referendum.

seriously its really irritating and all it does is detract from the yes 'side'

VoidStarNull · 13-06-2008 2:13pm

It's funny how all of the anti-EU folk have come out of the wood work since the vote finished. Where were ye all while the treaty was being debated? Pretending to be in favour of a "better EU", or the "EU as it is already is", I'm sure. :pac:

VinLieger · 13-06-2008 2:13pm

Phototoxin wrote: »

Im so sick of this sh*t.

Ever consider that people voted no because they WANTED to and that that's all that matters in a referendum.

seriously its really irritating and all it does is detract from the yes 'side'

Its not bull**** there is no way for the avergae person to understand the legalise nonsense that the treaty was made up of. There is no way something as confusing and complicated as Lisbon should have ever even been put to a public vote.

Rb · 13-06-2008 2:14pm

eoin2nc wrote: »

So the fishing indutry would be able to employ everyone in Microsoft,Dell,Intel,Whyeth ect who wolud lose their jobs?

70% of this country is employed in the services sector, which is totally dependent on the EU.

Do you know anything about your own economy?

Well thats just my 'silly atitude' to the EU

And what does that matter? Are we leaving the EU? No, no we're not.

The low taxes attracted the companies here, if we lose them it'll be as a result of
A: A hike in taxes
B: A drop in taxes in another country where the cost of labour is a lot lower than here.

They're not going anywhere as a result of today, we're not leaving Europe as a result of today.

As I said previously, you can be Pro-EU and Anti-Treaty, do you understand that?

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-06-2008 2:14pm

Phototoxin wrote: »

Im so sick of this sh*t.

Ever consider that people voted no because they WANTED to and that that's all that matters in a referendum.

seriously its really irritating and all it does is detract from the yes 'side'

Well said. They are ignorant and have closed minds.

Crash · 13-06-2008 2:14pm

We might as well leave. From the EU's point of view at the moment we don't really bring much of the ideals of cooperation to the table, we're continuously naysayers etc. - so why should they have to put up with us, for example?

Phototoxin · 13-06-2008 2:16pm

Its not bull**** there is no way for the avergae person to understand the legalise nonsense that the treaty was made up of. There is no way something as confusing and complicated as Lisbon should have ever even been put to a public vote.

then why is everyone saying oooh vote yes if they dont understand either. Im sorry but thats a silly argument.

I'm glad we could choose unlike nazi britian.

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-06-2008 2:16pm

crash_000 wrote: »

We might as well leave. From the EU's point of view at the moment we don't really bring much of the ideals of cooperation to the table, we're continuously naysayers etc. - so why should they have to put up with us, for example?

What nonsense. The people of Europe who were denied a chance to exercise democracy will be thrilled with this vote. Cooperation must have the support of the people. We are not here for their benefit, they are there for our benefit. That's democracy.

kevteljeur · 13-06-2008 2:17pm

Phototoxin wrote: »

Im so sick of this sh*t.

Ever consider that people voted no because they WANTED to and that that's all that matters in a referendum.

seriously its really irritating and all it does is detract from the yes 'side'

I think the biggest problem was asking people to vote on something at a time of serious economic uncertainty. If people are stressed, and things aren't looking good, then having a bunch of people shouting at you about "VOTE YES!" or "VOTE NO!", and the things they're asking you amounts to "The treaty is Shemmeb embelem mebebemmle egenb. Pick one." - Well, no is, was and always will be the safe option.

When in doubt, just say no. It's what we're been told since we were kids.

DeVore · 13-06-2008 2:18pm

One thing that annoyed me throughout this and other EU votes is this idea that we owe the EU for our economic upswing in the 90's and after.

The fact is that up until just about the year I graduated everyone simply emigrated and went to London, Berlin, Boston or Sydney. The period around when I left college (1991) marked a change in that trend and I found my generation (and I) had decided to stick around and work here.
Companies like Baltimore, Iona, Trintech all popped up, we had more entrepreneurs then any other country in Europe.

We were a generation beaten in school and driven through an unreconstructed Leaving Cert system which honed a certain amount of dog eat doggedness due to an uncompromisingly brutal points system.

People stayed and worked and put their finances on the line to build something here. It didnt arrive by UPS from Brussels one day you know.

I dont doubt that the EU has been good to Ireland but its insulting to say that they were the primary people behind our growth.

DeV.

kevteljeur · 13-06-2008 2:19pm

crash_000 wrote: »

We might as well leave. From the EU's point of view at the moment we don't really bring much of the ideals of cooperation to the table, we're continuously naysayers etc. - so why should they have to put up with us, for example?

No, they've invested in us. They want their money back like all good business people. We're kicking and screaming and refusing, but they'll get it back.

carveone · 13-06-2008 2:22pm

crash_000 wrote: »

We might as well leave. From the EU's point of view at the moment we don't really bring much of the ideals of cooperation to the table, we're continuously naysayers etc. - so why should they have to put up with us, for example?

We can't leave them. I wonder can they leave us? The Lisbon treaty will be ratified by 26 out of 27 countries leading to a lot of talk on the radio at the moment about a two speed EU. Must go find out what on earth that means!

I turned off the radio after some guy said that the Irish people were in a bad humour and that's why they voted no.

eoin2nc · 13-06-2008 2:22pm

Rb wrote: »

And what does that matter? Are we leaving the EU? No, no we're not.

The low taxes attracted the companies here, if we lose them it'll be as a result of
A: A hike in taxes
B: A drop in taxes in another country where the cost of labour is a lot lower than here.

They're not going anywhere as a result of today, we're not leaving Europe as a result of today.

As I said previously, you can be Pro-EU and Anti-Treaty, do you understand that?

Yes I know you can be Pro-EU and Anti-Treaty, but from your post you said that any loses incurred if we left the EU could be made back from the fishing industry.

I was disagreeing with that point. Your right the rejection of the Treaty isnt going to cause any business to leave, for now at least

kevteljeur · 13-06-2008 2:24pm

DeVore wrote: »

One thing that annoyed me throughout this and other EU votes is this idea that we owe the EU for our economic upswing in the 90's and after.

The fact is that up until just about the year I graduated everyone simply emigrated and went to London, Berlin, Boston or Sydney. The period around when I left college (1991) marked a change in that trend and I found my generation (and I) had decided to stick around and work here.
Companies like Baltimore, Iona, Trintech all popped up, we had more entrepreneurs then any other country in Europe.

We were a generation beaten in school and driven through an unreconstructed Leaving Cert system which honed a certain amount of dog eat doggedness due to an uncompromisingly brutal points system.

People stayed and worked and put their finances on the line to build something here. It didnt arrive by UPS from Brussels one day you know.

I dont doubt that the EU has been good to Ireland but its insulting to say that they were the primary people behind our growth.

DeV.

Sure, it didn't all come from them; good timing, a well-educated and well-trained workforce which spoke English as a first language was a huge selling point. But they did pump a lot of money into infrastructure and so allow the government to cut taxes in every way, especially to business and foreign investors (by paying for things that, ideally, the Irish state could have invested more money into).

I believe that this is one of the things the EU wants to put a stop to; undercutting tax rates in other countries in order to be more competitive. The dreaded harmonisation, which I'm very much in favour of.

Should we leave the EU?

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