The people of Ireland have spoken.

dlofnep · 13-06-2008 1:30pm #1

In a resounding Yes to democracy, no to Lisbon. It's time for the yes side to accept defeat and take note. This is democracy in action. If the people of Europe had the opportunity to vote, I am sure we would have seen similar results across the board. The people of Ireland have spoken for the people of Europe, but I fear - the other countries will still go forth with the Lisbon treaty, muting the outcry of the Irish people and their very own people, while Ireland will become exempt for the stipulations of the cryptic text, known only as the Lisbon Treaty.

bill_ashmount · 13-06-2008 1:34pm

Ya, congrats to the No campaign. A great victory despite the forces mounted against you.

You stood tall and refused to be broken. A great day for all Europeans.....

vandermeyde · 13-06-2008 1:37pm

The treaty needs to be ratified by all countries in order for it to become law so in effect we've vetoed it. As things stand currently, it's dead in the water.

BlitzKrieg · 13-06-2008 1:44pm

congrats to the *no* campaign, how much a I may disagree with you, when it came down to the wire you had more support.

But on a side comment and not one to be taken too seriously.

with posts like the OP's why is it always people on the *yes* being accused of being arrogent?

dlofnep · 13-06-2008 1:49pm

vandermeyde wrote: »

The treaty needs to be ratified by all countries in order for it to become law so in effect we've vetoed it. As things stand currently, it's dead in the water.

I read a report yesterday that said there was plans to possibly still go ahead with it for the rest of the member states, but make Ireland except. It was a backup plan from Brussels. I guess we'll see?

BlitzKrieg - I didn't mean to come across as arrogant, but the YES campaign has been on a high horse all through this debate and spoke down to many voting no - trying to ridicule them.

nacho libre · 13-06-2008 1:53pm

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

congrats to the *no* campaign, how much a I may disagree with you, when it came down to the wire you had more support.

But on a side comment and not one to be taken too seriously.

with posts like the OP's why is it always people on the *yes* being accused of being arrogent?

There are arrogant people on both sides of the divide. It is good you are not badgering people for voting no and accept the outcome- unlike others here who give off the vibe they are suffering from the ignorance of the masses. That kind of carry on is insufferable. If a yes vote had carried i'd have accepted it and not starting insulting people for voting no. It's not asking much to expect maturity and humility from both camps.

dlofnep · 13-06-2008 1:56pm

Agreed with nacho libre. If the YES campaign had of won, I wouldn't be here right now questioning it. It would accepted it as part of democracy.

Ri na hEireann · 13-06-2008 2:02pm

dlofnep wrote: »

I read a report yesterday that said there was plans to possibly still go ahead with it for the rest of the member states, but make Ireland except. It was a backup plan from Brussels. I guess we'll see?

BlitzKrieg - I didn't mean to come across as arrogant, but the YES campaign has been on a high horse all through this debate and spoke down to many voting no - trying to ridicule them.

Legally they can't just go ahead with it and make Ireland exempt...that's a non-runner.

I don't think the YES campaign has been on a high horse. I just think that it must have been awfully frusrating to fight a campaign on the basis of discrediting a NO side who didn't really make any argument that related directly to the treaty,but rather voiced reservations about Europe.

The NO campaign ,undeniably put a haze over every possible issue they could and the Irish people decided this was enough to vote no....We have to accept this and move forward even if it was the wrong decision...which it was in my opinion.

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-06-2008 2:04pm

Agree with the OP. The people of spoken now we should have our views listened to and respected.

vandermeyde · 13-06-2008 2:10pm

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

Legally they can't just go ahead with it and make Ireland exempt...that's a non-runner.

I don't think the YES campaign has been on a high horse. I just think that it must have been awfully frusrating to fight a campaign on the basis of discrediting a NO side who didn't really make any argument that related directly to the treaty,but rather voiced reservations about Europe.

The NO campaign ,undeniably put a haze over every possible issue they could and the Irish people decided this was enough to vote no....We have to accept this and move forward even if it was the wrong decision...which it was in my opinion.

I think one of the major mistakes was that the YES side, particularly our esteemed Taoiseach, were so lofty and arrogant in their approach that they spent more time attacking the messengers on the NO side rather than attacking the message.

I voted Yes but I found it distasteful in the extreme that anyone who dared to vote No was being tarred as some kind of loony, anti-EU ignoramus.

People are entitled to vote however they choose. Democracy at it's finest.

As I've said elsewhere, if other countries/institutions have a problem with the democratic will of the Irish people, they can fup the fup off.

Zube · 13-06-2008 2:18pm

vandermeyde wrote: »

I
I voted Yes but I found it distasteful in the extreme that anyone who dared to vote No was being tarred as some kind of loony, anti-EU ignoramus.

And yet before the result is even in, the anti-EU loonies are already on here calling for Ireland to leave the EU!

nesf · 13-06-2008 2:22pm

I can respect the people, it's their call. As much as I dislike the "rule of the mob" aspects of referendums, it's the mechanism that we use for this kind of thing and you have to abide by the mobs call in these matters.

What annoys me is the some of the groups that fought for the No campaign. I can respect Sinn Fein for the most part because outside a little spin and misrepresentation (like our voting weight being halved), they fought a standard political campaign of finding the discontents and fighting to get that vote out yesterday. There are genuine people out there who were No voters and weren't swayed by the emotive **** stirring by other groups, I can respect this.

Groups like Cóir and Libertas on the other hand were lying through their teeth. Abortion wasn't an issue in this referendum. All the major groups, including Sinn Fein, agreed on this but that didn't stop Cóir cynically lying about it and stirring **** up about. Libertas changed what they were saying every other day it seemed, all the time denying they'd ever said X or Y even when there was plenty of evidence to show that they had. This annoys me and it's what I hate about mob politics. It's not fought on the issues, or any noble idea of the country's best interest but based on lies and **** stirring on a emotive and divisive issues.

It's left a very bad taste in my mouth. I don't blame the people themselves, it's very easy to mislead people with complicated documents like these. They fed on deep rooted fears that were not relevant to any serious discussion of the document, but hey that's politics isn't it.

Ulyanov · 13-06-2008 2:34pm

This was not democracy in action. The very fact that there was such a poor voter turnout proves the people didnt know what they wanted. The people have not spoken, they didnt turn up.

That is the victory for the no camp. They scared people away. To say Irish people have spoken for the people of Europe is a remark grossly wide of the mark. How can this be proven? Have millions of Europeans took to the streets in protest. Have governments fallen throughout Europe because they have not been afforded a referendum?

The answer is No they havent. To say it is a good day for Europeans?
No basis for this comment.

bill_ashmount · 13-06-2008 2:41pm

Ulyanov wrote: »

This was not democracy in action.

Wrong

nesf · 13-06-2008 2:43pm

Ulyanov wrote: »

The very fact that there was such a poor voter turnout proves the people didnt know what they wanted.

It was a good turnout for a referendum tbh.

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-06-2008 2:46pm

Ulyanov wrote: »

This was not democracy in action. The very fact that there was such a poor voter turnout proves the people didnt know what they wanted. The people have not spoken, they didnt turn up.

Oh for the love of God please spare us the low turnout bollocks. If it had been a Yes vote we'd not hear such remarks.

It WAS democracy in action and the people voted No. Accept it.

In/Casino/Out · 13-06-2008 2:50pm

I would have to agree that this is not a victory for democracy. Less than half the population voted and those that did often did not know enough to make a really informed decision.
This is just as much true for the yes vote as it is the no vote. I would find it hard to believe anyone could argue with the fact that the majority of voters didnt know what it was about and voted accordingly.

CerebralCortex · 13-06-2008 2:53pm

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

congrats to the *no* campaign, how much a I may disagree with you, when it came down to the wire you had more support.

But on a side comment and not one to be taken too seriously.

with posts like the OP's why is it always people on the *yes* being accused of being arrogent?

Good point, perhaps with maybe a better delivery with the terms of the treaty I may have voted yes.

CerebralCortex · 13-06-2008 2:55pm

In/Casino/Out wrote: »

I would have to agree that this is not a victory for democracy. Less than half the population voted and those that did often did not know enough to make a really informed decision.
This is just as much true for the yes vote as it is the no vote. I would find it hard to believe anyone could argue with the fact that the majority of voters didnt know what it was about and voted accordingly.

Its funny while voting I met an oldish man who thought it was a general election it was kind of funny but sad at the same time. :pac:

Hitman Actual · 13-06-2008 2:56pm

Ulyanov wrote: »

This was not democracy in action. The very fact that there was such a poor voter turnout proves the people didnt know what they wanted. The people have not spoken, they didnt turn up.

It was a higher than usual turn-out for a referendum. And the Yes side reckoned that if there was a turnout of 45%+, it would be enough to swing if for them. They were wrong on that as well...

I agree with much of what nesf said. Whatever about Sinn Fein, Coir and Libertas got away with an extremely misleading campaign. Some of the No camp are talking about a misleading/scaremongering campaign by the Yes camp, but it was nothing on the scale of the outright lies perpetuated by Coir and Libertas.

skearon · 13-06-2008 2:57pm

nesf wrote: »

Groups like Cóir and Libertas on the other hand were lying through their teeth. Abortion wasn't an issue in this referendum. All the major groups, including Sinn Fein, agreed on this but that didn't stop Cóir cynically lying about it and stirring **** up about. Libertas changed what they were saying every other day it seemed, all the time denying they'd ever said X or Y even when there was plenty of evidence to show that they had. This annoys me and it's what I hate about mob politics. It's not fought on the issues, or any noble idea of the country's best interest but based on lies and **** stirring on a emotive and divisive issues.

It's left a very bad taste in my mouth. I don't blame the people themselves, it's very easy to mislead people with complicated documents like these. They fed on deep rooted fears that were not relevant to any serious discussion of the document, but hey that's politics isn't it.

Well put, and apart from being the worst foreign policy decision we Irish have ever made, it just shows that engaging in a deliberate policy of spreading confusion through misrepresentation works.

Now that they have sidelined Ireland in Europe, I wonder will the No side be just as proud of themselves when they find foreign investment bypassing this country, jobs going, and the dole queues growing. Yes well done lads, a day you tell your grandchildren about as they leave the country to find jobs.

mewso · 13-06-2008 3:06pm

When will the Government learn? They should have worded it differently:-

Should we Reject the Lisbon Treaty?

Vote Yes - to reject the Lisbon Treaty.
Vote No - to accept it.

Woulda been quids in then.

CerebralCortex · 13-06-2008 3:21pm

skearon wrote: »

Well put, and apart from being the worst foreign policy decision we Irish have ever made, it just shows that engaging in a deliberate policy of spreading confusion through misrepresentation works.

Now that they have sidelined Ireland in Europe, I wonder will the No side be just as proud of themselves when they find foreign investment bypassing this country, jobs going, and the dole queues growing. Yes well done lads, a day you tell your grandchildren about as they leave the country to find jobs.

How does sideline us in Europe exactly? I'm curious to know and if it does is that the kind of Europe we want: one that sidelines us for exercising our democratic right, I want to stay in Europe I want Europe to work as well as it can none of these reasons have anything to do with why I voted No. In fairness delivery of the treaty was pathetic. Its terms of implementation undemocratic. IMHO

kerry4sam · 13-06-2008 3:26pm

Absolutely shocking how the political parties are not in tune with the people of Ireland ...

The YES vote got off to a real slow start that just never gained any substantial momentum. I am disappointed it wasn't ratified and i am worried as to what will happen to our future as a result ...

imeddyhobbs · 13-06-2008 3:28pm

There was once a book titled "How the Irish saved civilization". They have done it again. The governments of "free" Europe tried to impose a rejected Constitution (wrapped in the smelly fish paper of a "treaty") on their citizens. The Irish have shown courage in the face of EU government cowardice:)

nesf · 13-06-2008 3:33pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

How does sideline us in Europe exactly?

In fairness, it has been something discussed seriously as a possibility in the media outside of Ireland, like the Economist and the Financial Times. No one likes the idea of it but it's an idea that's been floating about for a long time but since enlargement it's gaining a bit more support.

zuchum · 13-06-2008 3:36pm

I'm emigrating, you're all morons

imeddyhobbs · 13-06-2008 3:43pm

zuchum wrote: »

I'm emigrating, you're all morons

Emigrating to somewhere that you dont have a voice?

Try mainland europe

Dave! · 13-06-2008 3:45pm

zuchum wrote: »

I'm emigrating, you're all morons

lol

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-06-2008 3:50pm

zuchum wrote: »

I'm emigrating, you're all morons

May I suggest China.

seamus · 13-06-2008 3:57pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

How does sideline us in Europe exactly?

As mentioned, it could be something which leaves as something of a hanger-on state.

The French PM (?) said today that if the vote was turned down by us, that the other members should go ahead and ratify it, then we'd see what kind of legal arrangement could be made re: Ireland.

It could be a matter where we opt into a handful of the Lisbon things - stuff which doesn't modify any previous treaties, but get excluded from other initiatives when they would contradict the Nice treaty.

It may even be a matter of hanging on for two years until we've opted into and implemented most of the Lisbon stuff anyway and then just asking people to approve a treaty which we've mostly subscribed to.

Kovik · 13-06-2008 3:57pm

Congratulations to Declan Ganley, an unaccountable, unelected, unvetted political spokesman with an enormous financial interest in the outcome of this vote, for purchasing a referendum.

Democracy indeed.

kerry4sam · 13-06-2008 3:57pm

zuchum wrote: »

I'm emigrating, you're all morons

In a few years you won't be the only person thinking that way

skearon · 13-06-2008 3:58pm

zuchum wrote: »

I'm emigrating, you're all morons

Because of the referendum No result? No, stay and help expose the lies of Libertas, SF etc

gordon_gekko · 13-06-2008 3:59pm

the no vote of the people must of course be respected , however as gay mitchell said on radio earlier , all those on the no campagin and all those members of the public who voted no must now take responsibility for there descision

Hitman Actual · 13-06-2008 4:01pm

seamus wrote: »

As mentioned, it could be something which leaves as something of a hanger-on state.

The French PM (?) said today that if the vote was turned down by us, that the other members should go ahead and ratify it, then we'd see what kind of legal arrangement could be made re: Ireland.

It could be a matter where we opt into a handful of the Lisbon things - stuff which doesn't modify any previous treaties, but get excluded from other initiatives when they would contradict the Nice treaty.

A German MEP was talking earlier about a two-speed EU as well. Not just for Ireland, but for other countries who are not happy with the Treaty. Which is strange seeing as it looks like every other country will ratify it anyway, if what Barroso is saying pans out.

Actually, that's exactly what you're saying. Us on our own with a slimmed-down version of the Treaty.

skearon · 13-06-2008 4:05pm

kerry4sam wrote: »

Absolutely shocking how the political parties are not in tune with the people of Ireland ...

These are the same political parties we voted for just over a year ago in a general election? 96% of the TDs we elected were in favour of the benefits saying Yes to Lisbon would bring to Ireland and it's people.

What is shocking is how a well and secretly funded organisation, Libertas, which is unelected and an unaccountable, can, by throwing huge sums of money into advertising, persuade people to vote a certain way with bogus and false arguements.

imeddyhobbs · 13-06-2008 4:07pm

Kovik wrote: »

Congratulations to Declan Ganley, an unaccountable, unelected, unvetted political spokesman with an enormous financial interest in the outcome of this vote, for purchasing a referendum.

Democracy indeed.

It was this movie that made me vote the way that I did http://www.infowars.com/?p=2672
Ganley unelected like the European Commission?are you making a comparison
?
Anyway looks like libertas will become a political party soon

Kovik · 13-06-2008 4:13pm

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

It was this movie that made me vote the way that I did http://www.infowars.com/?p=2672
Ganley unelected like the European Commission?are you making a comparison
?
Anyway looks like libertas will become a political party soon

That's the worst film I've ever seen.

The commission represents the EU on issues primarily relating to administration and has no bearing on national or individual representation. Your interests are represented by the MEPs you elect and by the various ministers of the government you elect as they represent the country in over a score of EU councils where the vast majority of transnational EU policy is made and in which every single country has an effective majority on all issues that would directly impact national policy, with or without Lisbon.

dlofnep · 13-06-2008 4:27pm

Kovik wrote: »

Congratulations to Declan Ganley, an unaccountable, unelected, unvetted political spokesman with an enormous financial interest in the outcome of this vote, for purchasing a referendum.

Democracy indeed.

Yes, Declan Ganley was the only person campaigning for a no vote... :rolleyes:

The people who won the no vote are all of us who were on the ground distributing leaflets across Ireland over the past few months. Organised meetings, speeches, debates.

kerry4sam · 13-06-2008 4:33pm

skearon wrote: »

These are the same political parties we voted for just over a year ago in a general election? 96% of the TDs we elected were in favour of the benefits saying Yes to Lisbon would bring to Ireland and it's people.

Look at how the majority of people have stood up now though and ignored the voice of these elected politicians; who if they really had their ears to the ground would have predicted this outcome and done something sooner.

Retribution · 13-06-2008 4:38pm

dlofnep wrote: »

In a resounding Yes to democracy, no to Lisbon. It's time for the yes side to accept defeat and take note. This is democracy in action. If the people of Europe had the opportunity to vote, I am sure we would have seen similar results across the board. The people of Ireland have spoken for the people of Europe, but I fear - the other countries will still go forth with the Lisbon treaty, muting the outcry of the Irish people and their very own people, while Ireland will become exempt for the stipulations of the cryptic text, known only as the Lisbon Treaty.

Well first of all i want to thank you for voting No in this referendum. As you have said we didnt have any chance to say our opinion about Lisbon.. We were simply cut off from the decision our goverments did it themselfs. You were the only nation in Europe which have got the oportunity to say what they really think about "force extensions" in europe. I know the whole Lisbon treaty and i belive its wrong. Our Constitution Tribunal should acuse our politics for voting YES but as in the rest of Europe nowdays democracy is dying.. That's why once again i want to thank you because most likely you have saved remainings of our freedom.

Tom - from Poland

P.S. I want to apologise for my bad English

dlofnep · 13-06-2008 4:40pm

Glad we could speak on our behalf which reflected your opinion Tom. Like I said, I believe if the rest of Europe had a voice on this - it would most likely have been a resounding NO.

Kovik · 13-06-2008 4:48pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes, Declan Ganley was the only person campaigning for a no vote... :rolleyes:

Libertas spent more on their campaign than every major political party combined.

In addition, they refused to make the source of their funding public.

The vast majority of lay campaigners, leaflets and No advertising came from this group.

This wasn't a democratic exercise. It was a hatchet job by the person with the deepest pockets.

Retribution · 13-06-2008 4:56pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

May I suggest China.

Hong Kong is a nice place to live

same Macao.. both "part" of China empire.

imeddyhobbs · 13-06-2008 5:03pm

Kovik wrote: »

Libertas spent more on their campaign than every major political party combined.

In addition, they refused to make the source of their funding public.

The vast majority of lay campaigners, leaflets and No advertising came from this group.

This wasn't a democratic exercise. It was a hatchet job by the person with the deepest pockets.

That all sounds like sower grapes to me.
What does it matter where they get money from,they did'nt pay people to vote no so thats not an issue,Are you saying that they did something wrong?

dlofnep · 13-06-2008 5:04pm

Kovik wrote: »

Libertas spent more on their campaign than every major political party combined.

In addition, they refused to make the source of their funding public.

The vast majority of lay campaigners, leaflets and No advertising came from this group.

This wasn't a democratic exercise. It was a hatchet job by the person with the deepest pockets.

More money? Perhaps.. More man-power and time? Certainly not. I was on the ground for the no campaign. I'm full aware of the time put in from the no sides. SF did much more on the ground than Liberlies did.

But you want to talk about money? FF has more money than all the NO parties put together, along with political swing - and look what that got them. The people of Ireland voted no because it was their wish to do so, and not because Declan Ganley asked them.

nesf · 13-06-2008 5:07pm

dlofnep wrote: »

More money? Perhaps.. More man-power and time? Certainly not. I was on the ground for the no campaign. I'm full aware of the time put in from the no sides. SF did much more on the ground than Liberlies did.

Libertas was far better funded than SF from what I heard from people in SF down here. SF definitely did way more on a grassroots level but considering that Libertas doesn't have a grassroots movement to speak of really, you'd expect this.

Kovik · 13-06-2008 5:09pm

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

That all sounds like sower grapes to me.
What does it matter where they get money from,they did'nt pay people to vote no so thats not an issue,Are you saying that they did something wrong?

Their strategy was dependent on outspending the legitimate parties in the country. Their arguments were unfounded and nebulous at best and they succeeded in it by simply bombarding the public with their demonstrably false pronouncements. Though the Yes parties and lobby groups succeeded universally in contradicting these nonsense claims, the No side dominated in terms of the distillation of their (mis)information.

uptherebels · 13-06-2008 5:18pm

Kovik wrote: »

Their strategy was dependent on outspending the legitimate parties in the country. Their arguments were unfounded and nebulous at best and they succeeded in it by simply bombarding the public with their demonstrably false pronouncements. Though the Yes parties and lobby groups succeeded universally in contradicting these nonsense claims, the No side dominated in terms of the distillation of their (mis)information.

I wouldnt say succeeded universally in contradicting these nonsense claims,for example micheal martin on the tv the other night was asked for a yes or no answer as to wether the treaty would or would not force us to increase our miitary spending.Now instead of giving a proper answer he started to ramble on about the great job we do as peacekeepers.

dlofnep · 13-06-2008 5:48pm

nesf wrote: »

Libertas was far better funded than SF from what I heard from people in SF down here. SF definitely did way more on a grassroots level but considering that Libertas doesn't have a grassroots movement to speak of really, you'd expect this.

Yes, I already stated that they were better funded. Declan Ganley is worth a few 100 million. I was highlighting that money doesn't win everything, it's the people who are out on the ground, going door to door who win - not the almighty buck.

The people of Ireland have spoken.

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