Boonen Banned from TDF

bunnygreen

Well well,what do make of that,what is going on......

Caroline_ie

bunnygreen wrote: »

Well well,what do make of that,what is going on......

I am really annoyed ... Boonen was one of my favourite riders ... and not only because he was handsome ... I guess I still have Jens Voigt ... ( please Jens stay clean )

bunnygreen

Caroline,Jens is a monster,some sprinting uphill in this tears paris-nice,boonens a bit of a playboy,nice legs alright.

Caroline_ie

bunnygreen wrote: »

Caroline,Jens is a monster,some sprinting uphill in this tears paris-nice,boonens a bit of a playboy,nice legs alright.

Oh ye, Boonen has an Amazing looking backside and legs ( sorry guys ... that's my revenge from you talking about women's bum on a previous post ) ...

Voigt has always been my favourite pro cyclist ... my mother is still a fan of Indurain after all these years.

bunnygreen

yeah boonen is a good looking guy,i could have done with his ass and legs on the Wicklow 200,thats all.

TinyExplosions

bunnygreen wrote: »

yeah boonen is a good looking guy,i could have done with his ass and legs on the Wicklow 200,thats all.

I could have maybe done with his coke on the 200

bunnygreen

caroline,vous etes francaise n'est pas?

bunnygreen

Tiny,thats a trump.

Caroline_ie

bunnygreen wrote: »

caroline,vous etes francaise n'est pas?

Oui de Bordeaux ... but you wouldn't know ... I lost the accent after all these years...

Caroline_ie

What really annoyes me about Boonen taking coke it that, he probably hasn't just picked up the habit recently ... so, why do we only know about it now. Does it mean he was off cocaine during the tours? And on During training? I don't get drugs ... I much prefer a nice cup of tea.

penexpers

I think this is a good move by the ASO. Shows they are more interested in cleaning up the sport than UCI.

bunnygreen

Caroline,mais vous ne détruisez jamais le goût pour le thé

Caroline_ie

bunnygreen wrote: »

Caroline,mais vous ne détruisez jamais le goût pour le thé

Good effort ... mais je ne comprend vraiment pas cette phrase
Tea is my favourite thing in Ireland ... ahhh a nice cup of Barry's tea ... with milk and 1 teaspoon of sugar. J'emporte toujours mon the avec moi en France ... but they don't always have kettles ...

Raam

Boonen is one of my favourites. It's a pity he has let this happen.

Caroline_ie

I think we should start taking bets ... who do you think will get caught during the TDF this year?? ... maybe one of the Australians this time ( random guess )

bunnygreen

one of the columbians?

Caroline_ie

And something else I don't understand ...

http://www.europeloton.com/2008/05/basso-to-become-anti-doping-ambassador.html

* ... Hi My Name is Ivan and I have been off the doping for 2 years ...

TinyExplosions

I'm going to guess at Cavendish -simply cos he's so much to lose!

Raam

Valverde

blorg

penexpers wrote: »

I think this is a good move by the ASO. Shows they are more interested in cleaning up the sport than UCI.

Personally I think this is a cowardly media-driven move by ASO. Anti-doping, sure. But a distinction must be made between recreational drugs and drugs used for performance enhancement. As has been by UCI and WADA. You can be anti-doping in sport (as I most certainly would be) while being pro-legalisation for many recreational drugs. But at the end of the day, ultimately the two are not connected and SHOULD NOT be connected.

Point is, Boonen was not taking coke to help him win the TdF.

Next thing the TdF will have some rule banning 16 year olds as "performance enhancing."

sy

Yes but he knows thw score ( bad pun) and he was stupid to mess around with coke. These guys know that they can be tested at any time. No excuses. Its their responsibility to stay clean from ALL drugs. Really disappointed to hear he was caught. Great rider.

blorg

sy wrote: »

Yes but he knows thw score ( bad pun) and he was stupid to mess around with coke. These guys know that they can be tested at any time. No excuses. Its their responsibility to stay clean from ALL drugs. Really disappointed to hear he was caught. Great rider.

I disagree. There are rules. Cocaine outside competition is non-peformancing enhancing. 2 days is the rule. No-one disagrees with this. Even this result was supposedly leaked as Boonen had broken no anti-doping rule.

Anti-doping is not about "everyone hold hands and say NO to drugs", it's about unfair competition in sport. This distorts that message.

tunney

Caroline_ie wrote: »

What really annoyes me about Boonen taking coke it that, he probably hasn't just picked up the habit recently ... so, why do we only know about it now. Does it mean he was off cocaine during the tours? And on During training? I don't get drugs ... I much prefer a nice cup of tea.

We're not just hearing about it now. Its been in the rumour mill for months.

Off course he was off cocaine during the tours, it would show up in any tests.

Coke is only classed as an in-competition PED as it only gives benefit on the day, not in long term training.

I'm probably more anti-doping than they next guy but this wasn't doping, this was stupidity and partying.

tunney

penexpers wrote: »

I think this is a good move by the ASO. Shows they are more interested in cleaning up the sport than UCI.

Not really no.

Alcohol is considered a PED. Obviously an in-competition PED. How many people would test positive for alcohol in an out of compeition dope test?

Lets get clear on what is and isn't performance enhanhing doping. Coke out of competition is not performance enhancing.

tunney

blorg wrote: »

Personally I think this is a cowardly media-driven move by ASO. Anti-doping, sure. But a distinction must be made between recreational drugs and drugs used for performance enhancement. As has been by UCI and WADA. You can be anti-doping in sport (as I most certainly would be) while being pro-legalisation for many recreational drugs. But at the end of the day, ultimately the two are not connected and SHOULD NOT be connected.

Point is, Boonen was not taking coke to help him win the TdF.

Next thing the TdF will have some rule banning 16 year olds as "performance enhancing."

+1

(beat me to it)

penexpers

blorg wrote: »

Personally I think this is a cowardly media-driven move by ASO. Anti-doping, sure. But a distinction must be made between recreational drugs and drugs used for performance enhancement. As has been by UCI and WADA. You can be anti-doping in sport (as I most certainly would be) while being pro-legalisation for many recreational drugs. But at the end of the day, ultimately the two are not connected and SHOULD NOT be connected.

Point is, Boonen was not taking coke to help him win the TdF.

Next thing the TdF will have some rule banning 16 year olds as "performance enhancing."

I don't think ASO were approaching it from a doping point of view, merely an image point of view. I think they want everyone who enters the TdF to be totally clean of performance enchancing drugs and recreational drugs. Boonen as such a high profile rider was stupid to get caught and now he's paying the price.

Raam

I agree with the ASO for not wanting him in. I think he's a great rider, I'll still follow his results and he is still one of my favourites, however, the sport is already suffering from so many setbacks with doping that they simply have to leave him out. It doesn't matter if it's recreational and out of competition. The sport must be seen to be clean.

niceonetom

well quickstep have at least stood behind him.

i have to disagree with the ASO; this was not doping and that's a s far as their remit should go. recreational drug use (that has no performance enhancing effect) is none of their business, it's a matter for the law should it come to that.

i can see why they've banned him though, he would be a likely stage winner and they don't want that kind of publicity, but i dislike their make-it-up-as-we-go-along policy as to who can and can't race and why. it's basically saying "it's my gaff, i can do as i please". it's true, but that doesn't make it right.

DirkVoodoo

But this is what I don't understand, and you see it with footballers too (Being a Chelsea fan I am remembering Mutu and Bosnich flushing their careers down the toilet). Not only are they role models to fans and under the glare of the media spotlight, but they live and breathe an industry that enforces extremely strict testing.

Surely they aren't stupid enough to think that they can get away with it? I don't know how long trace amounts of cocaine remain in the body, but if I were a professional athlete, I wouldn't stake my career and reputation on a pretty silly pastime. Like Caroline said, he should probably have stuck to a cup of tea per day.

erizo

and what about all the politicians that run different countries in europe that are high on coke?

and what about all those taxi drivers that drive you high on coke on a saturday night?

how many people does coke, nowadays, off-season, during the season...
and it is not considered a enhancing drug, anyway, i guess it is fair to be banned, because it is a drug.

Limestone1

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I don't know how long trace amounts of cocaine remain in the body, but if I were a professional athlete, I wouldn't stake my career and reputation on a pretty silly pastime. Like Caroline said, he should probably have stuck to a cup of tea per day.

Usually 24hrs but up to 48hr max. - it's one of the quicker ones to be expunged hence more suitable for people who are regularly drug tested than for example cannabis which can remain in the body for weeks.
It is a bit unfair that he can be banned for non performance enhancing drugs but I guess it is illegal so once it went public they could hardly ignore it after all the scandals of the last few years.

Hungrycol

Leaving aside the fact that he is a hero to may Belgian and French kids that Dirkvoodoo said but also the fact that Joe Soap just hears that another top cyclist gets caught with drugs. Performance Enhancing or not it is damaging to the sport and the ASO are right not to be associated with drug users recreational or not.

DirkVoodoo

How many politicians and taxi drivers are high profile figures who are role models to many? I'm not excusing them, but they are far less likely to get found out. I'm not getting into a debate about the morals of drug use, but if you are a world famous cyclist, its not too smart.

Hermy

Professional athletes, and professional cyclists particularly, should not be consuming Cocaine. That Boonen was caught is a good thing as it shows yet again that the testing procedures are working. That ASO banned Boonen from the Tour is perfectly understandable as they and others continue the uphill battle to remove all drug taking - performance enhancing or otherwise - from the sport of cycling. Boonen is the only one to blame here as he is the one consuming the drug.

blorg

tunney wrote: »

Alcohol is considered a PED. Obviously an in-competition PED. How many people would test positive for alcohol in an out of compeition dope test?

Lets get clear on what is and isn't performance enhanhing doping. Coke out of competition is not performance enhancing.

Exactly- Cyclists used to lash down brandy during the Tour, Tom Simpson indeed died on Mont Ventoux having taken a mix of alcohol and amphetamines.

There is a wide perception among the general public that doping is about "drugs" in the sense of "just say no to drugs" and this is not what it is about at all.

It is about performance enhancement and there are plenty of perfectly legal substances that are on the banned list. Caffeine and pseudoephedrine (Sudafed) only came off very recently, and there were plenty of people who thought they should stay banned. Cyclists have been banned for over-zealous use of their asthma inhalers.

So your "nice cup of tea" until recently was a banned substance (if you drank enough of it!) And IMHO probably still should be, more so than cocaine out of competition.

blorg

Hermy wrote: »

Professional athletes, and professional cyclists particularly, should not be consuming Cocaine. That Boonen was caught is a good thing as it shows yet again that the testing procedures are working. That ASO banned Boonen from the Tour is perfectly understandable as they and others continue the uphill battle to remove all drug taking - performance enhancing or otherwise - from the sport of cycling. Boonen is the only one to blame here as he is the one consuming the drug.

It is not an anti-doping agency's job to campaign against illegal recreational drug use. It is their job to prevent unfair competition in sport.

Should Boonen be banned for the TdF because he was caught speeding while drink driving? Worse than recreational cocaine use IMHO. Sets a bad example, etc etc.

penexpers

blorg wrote: »

It is not an anti-doping agency's job to campaign against illegal recreational drug use.

ASO aren't an anti-doping agency though.

Hermy

But it is their job to try and clean up a sport who's credibillity is being destroyed by drug cheats.
Moreover, it is the responsibillity of every rider to ensure that they do everything they can to improve the image of this much maligned sport.
Boonen should know better.

blorg

penexpers wrote:

ASO aren't an anti-doping agency though.

Fair point, and they can invite who they like- my point is though that they are doing this for all the wrong reasons.

Hermy wrote: »

But it is their job to try and clean up a sport who's credibillity is being destroyed by drug cheats.

(emphasis added.) Sure, and this is sending just the wrong message. It furthers the mis-perception in the public's mind that doping simply = illegal drugs, when it is actually about cheating. It's not the drugs that are the problem, it's the cheating!

niceonetom

blorg wrote: »

It is not an anti-doping agency's job to campaign against illegal recreational drug use. It is their job to prevent unfair competition in sport.

Should Boonen be banned for the TdF because he was caught speeding while drink driving? Worse than recreational cocaine use IMHO. Sets a bad example, etc etc.

i agree.

the "role model" argument is nonsense, becoming famous because you can ride a bike really fast does not mean you somehow owe the public perfect behaviour. i'm sure the ASO would love all the riders to be nice clean cut young men who say their prayers every night before going to bed (alone!) at 9pm, but so what? they should not be invigilators of moral purity beyond performance enhancing doping. other matters should be decided by the legal courts - or the court of public opinion (sponsorship contracts etc.)

this is not an exercise in preventing cheating (which would be fine), this is an exercise in public relations (a poor one, in my opinion, cycling's image could benefit from a few more party animals, instead of dour, skinny, cry-babies).

again, i understand why the ASO have done this, but it's disingenuous to claim this as a victory for the anti-doping campaign.

tunney

Hermy wrote: »

Professional athletes, and professional cyclists particularly, should not be consuming Cocaine. That Boonen was caught is a good thing as it shows yet again that the testing procedures are working. That ASO banned Boonen from the Tour is perfectly understandable as they and others continue the uphill battle to remove all drug taking - performance enhancing or otherwise - from the sport of cycling. Boonen is the only one to blame here as he is the one consuming the drug.

Eh do you understand the concept of doping?
Do you know the difference between a PED and a recreational drug?
He wasn't *caught*.
He never failed a test.
WADA, UCI and the Flemish Cycling Authority don't think he did anything wrong. (Moral aspects excluded).

Raam

It's not about cheating or even about anti-doping. It's about image. If a pro-footballer was caught taking cocaine, I'd expect the same treatment for him.
If a co-worker was caught taking cocaine, I'd be happy to see the back of him.
Drink-driving doesn't carry the same ability to leverage an attack on the TdF's image. Cocaine usage has an inherent association with all bad press it has seen over the years.

Gavin

Raam wrote: »

If a co-worker was caught taking cocaine, I'd be happy to see the back of him.

If it doesn't affect their work (performance) how does it affect you and your work. You and your company don't have the right to perform justice as you see it, it's up to the courts/law of the land.

Same as with this guy. He breaks the law, the law deals with him. He does his time or whatever was required. After that he has paid his dues and no one else should be allowed to enforce their morals on him.

Raam

Verb wrote: »

If it doesn't affect their work (performance) how does it affect you and your work. You and your company don't have the right to perform justice as you see it, it's up to the courts/law of the land.

Same as with this guy. He breaks the law, the law deals with him. He does his time or whatever was required. After that he has paid his dues and no one else should be allowed to enforce their morals on him.

Who cares if a company has a right to perform justice? Whether they do or don't is immaterial to my wish not to work along side drug users. I fear that parallel is drawing us away from the issue of Boonen.
Race owners DO have a right to perform justice, because it's their race. They don't hire Boonen, they don't fire Boonen, but they can say who comes to their party. I support their decision in this matter.

DirkVoodoo

Raam wrote: »

It's not about cheating or even about anti-doping. It's about image. If a pro-footballer was caught taking cocaine, I'd expect the same treatment for him.
If a co-worker was caught taking cocaine, I'd be happy to see the back of him.
Drink-driving doesn't carry the same ability to leverage an attack on the TdF's image. Cocaine usage has an inherent association with all bad press it has seen over the years.

Exactly. Both Mutu and Bosnich as I mentioned were sacked by Chelsea. It's a bad image for the club and it puts out a bad image to young kids that these guys who you idolize are doing engaged in snorting cocaine and still get cheered on a football pitch on saturday. Its a message to the rest of the sporting world in general that it will not be tolerated.

I dont buy the "britney spears" argument tom (sorry, my words not yours). When someone becomes famous through achievement and earns that celebrity, the flip side of being adored by millions and signing autographs is that people are going to be following your every move and pouncing upon every mistake you make. I'm not saying he owes his fans anything, but at his level of fame a certain level of responsibility is expected (unlike what we seem to get from Ms.Spears)

He is a professional cyclist and not one of us casual enthusiasts. If he is willing to risk his career on getting high at the weekends or speeding at double the limit then he gets what he deserves. I feel some sympathy for him however, perhaps some more guidance from those around him is what he needed.

Raam

From Roadbikerider.com, my favourite site today...

6. RACING ROUNDUP
Gleaned from news sources worldwide. Credited where exclusive.

---For the second time this year, former world champion Tom Boonen has been linked to cocaine. And this time it apparently will cost him dearly. The Tour of Switzerland said it won't permit him to start on Saturday. The Tour de France also declared him ineligible (he's the reigning green jersey points champion). In addition, the French ProTour team Bouygues Telecom called off contract negotiations for the 2009 season. Boonen, 27, a 2-time winner of Paris-Roubaix, was positive for cocaine in an out-of-competition drug test in late May shortly before the Tour of Belgium (he won the final stage). The news broke on Monday.

Boonen apologized yesterday and said he'll take a break from racing for an unspecified period. His team, Quick Step, called his drug use a personal matter and said he won't be punished. He will also escape sanctions by the International Cycling Union (UCI) and the Belgian Cycling Federation because his positive test did not occur during competition. However, he could face criminal charges in Belgium and he stands to suffer in the court of public opinion in a sport striving to overcome its drug-tainted image. Boonen's life in the fast lane has also resulted in 2 suspensions of his driver's license for speeding, the second of which included being over the legal limit for alcohol. Earlier this year, Tornado Tom was accused but found not guilty of supplying another pro cyclist with cocaine.
______________________________________

---Overheard: "Tom Boonen is a big champion but a big champion must also be exemplary. The integrity of the Tour, and of the teams participating in the Tour, could be harmed." -- Christian Prudhomme, Tour director, announcing that the Belgian superstar will not be permitted in next month's race.

---"Red card, end of the negotiations." -- Jean-Rene Bernaudeau, Bouygues Telecom manager, saying Boonen's drug use means contract talks are over.

---"I'm not perfect and I'll accept the consequences." -- Tom Boonen

niceonetom

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I'm not saying he owes his fans anything, but at his level of fame a certain level of responsibility is expected...

does this seem contradictory to anyone else?

my objection is that he hasn't actually broken any rules of the sport. his exclusion is therefore unfair in my opinion. if sponsors wish to drop him, or if his team wanted to cancel his contract i think that would be entirely up to them...

the ASO obviously places protecting the tour's reputation (ha!) above any concept of 'fairness', and would rather have a controversy free bunch of donkeys out there rather than risk putting some suspect thoroughbreds out to compete, i see their point, i just disagree with it.

it's the same reason i object to the exclusion of Astana. the ASO feel entitled to make up whatever rules they like, whenever they like, because they have the sport by the balls (Le Tour!). the last thing the sport needs is an unaccountable event organiser throwing its weight around as if it were a governing body. imagine if the olympics operated on an invitation only basis, and countries could be excluded on the whim of the organisers.

Hermy

tunney wrote: »

Eh do you understand the concept of doping?

I never mentioned doping but I'm familiar with blood doping if that's what you mean.

Do you know the difference between a PED and a recreational drug?

I've read books on the subject.

He wasn't *caught*.He never failed a test.

Allegedly he has been caught.

WADA, UCI and the Flemish Cycling Authority don't think he did anything wrong. (Moral aspects excluded).

Cocaine is a banned substance according to WADA.

Tunney, I'm sick and tired of the cheating that goes on in cycling and the excuses that are made when people are caught. This sport needs to be grabbed by the scruff of the neck and dragged into a new realm of clean competition. And whether someone is loaded up to the gills with human growth hormone or was a bit too liberal with their Ventolin inhaler or just decided to mess about with cocaine the weekend before the start of the Tour of Belgium doesn't matter a damn to me. If professional cycling is to regain its credibility then the riders need to stay the fcuk away from anything on WADA's banned list!

Hungrycol

Hermy wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of the cheating that goes on in cycling and the excuses that are made when people are caught. This sport needs to be grabbed by the scruff of the neck and dragged into a new realm of clean competition. And whether someone is loaded up to the gills with human growth hormone or was a bit too liberal with their Ventolin inhaler or just decided to mess about with cocaine the weekend before the start of the Tour of Belgium doesn't matter a damn to me. If professional cycling is to regain its credibility then the riders need to stay the fcuk away from anything on WADA's banned list!

Well said

blorg

Hermy wrote: »

Cocaine is a banned substance according to WADA.

Hermy, read the heading on the top of page 8, which lists cocaine (under S6. STIMULANTS):

SUBSTANCES AND METHODS
PROHIBITED IN-COMPETITION
In addition to the categories S1 to S5 and M1 to M3 defined above, the following categories are prohibited in competition:

There are over-the-counter cough remedies and decongestants in that list, are you saying an athlete can't take them if they have a cold out of competition in the winter season? Boonen did nothing to contravene WADA regulations and this has been confirmed by WADA themselves. These are all short-term stimulants that provide no benefit unless taken while racing.

Tunney, I'm sick and tired of the cheating that goes on in cycling and the excuses that are made when people are caught.

As am I- and taking cocaine recreationally out of competition has what exactly to do with cheating? Illegal drug use, sure, but illegal in the "criminal" sense and absolutely nothing to do with doping.

Hermy

Hermy wrote: »

the riders need to stay the fcuk away from anything on WADA's banned list!

Maybe I could have phrased that a bit better.

blorg wrote: »

There are over-the-counter cough remedies and decongestants in that list, are you saying an athlete can't take them if they have a cold out of competition in the winter season?

There's a world of difference between taking a cough bottle and snorting cocaine. I accept that cocaine is not a P.E.D. and to the letter of the law he may have commited no offence but three days before the start of the Tour of Belgium is hardly out of competition.