[Article] Bus Éireann fined 2 million euro

gjim

Your basic logic is nonsense

I beg to disagree. I suspect you don't understand logic at all, given that you took my example of the parents actions literally.

I wanted to make it easy for you as I heard a giant "whoosh" sound as I was reading your response to Ham 'n Egger but if you want it stated formally, here you go:

X being a necessary condition for Y does not imply a causal relationship between X and Y.

You can be charged and prosecuted legally only for being the cause and not for being a necessary condition.

Strictly speaking, that is not to say that the lack of ABS did not cause the accident. But a judge saying that the lack of ABS was a necessary condition for the crash to happen cannot be interpreted (as you have done) as a finding that the lack of ABS caused the accident.

shltter

gjim wrote: »

I beg to disagree. I suspect you don't understand logic at all, given that you took my example of the parents actions literally.

I wanted to make it easy for you as I heard a giant "whoosh" sound as I was reading your response to Ham 'n Egger but if you want it stated formally, here you go:

X being a necessary condition for Y does not imply a causal relationship between X and Y.

You can be charged and prosecuted legally only for being the cause and not for being a necessary condition.

Strictly speaking, that is not to say that the lack of ABS did not cause the accident. But a judge saying that the lack of ABS was a necessary condition for the crash to happen cannot be interpreted (as you have done) as a finding that the lack of ABS caused the accident.

You are trying to suggest that the judge merely put the lack of ABS as a condition that was necessary for the accident to occur as if in some way it was like rain or other traffic.
That is not what the Judge said.

Judge Pat McCartan said the bus would not have spun out of control and collided with cars before ending up on a ditch if the vehicle’s anti-lock breaking system (ABS) was working.

“I am satisfied that if the bus had ABS none of this would have happened,”

None of the victims’ families were present Judge McCartan said the absence of ABS was a significant factor that led to the fatalities and that Bus Éireann must take “direct responsibility” for the accident.

Davidth88

I find it ironic that the state is taking 2 million from the state, so basically we are all paying 50 cents for BE's errors.

Why are the managers not responsible for this , if they took the decision not to maintain the ABS ( and someone somewhere said , disconnect this , tie up the cable, take th bulb out ) then THEY should be personally resposnsible, if they were told by their mgr to say this then that person is responsible .....

So someone in BE ( or ex employee ) should be reaching into their piggy banks to pay this fine no the company.

I know in the UK if a mgr makes a decision that causes an accident they are personally responsible .

Victor

shltter wrote: »

Bus &#201 wrote: »

In hindsight our systems were not robust enough to detect when work on ABS was not being carried out properly.

That is not true and it is an attempt to pass the buck

I think they are admitting their management / QA system wasn't working, not the ABS system.

kove

Has anyone heard of any of the CEOs, managers or owners of any of these companies being charged, resigning or being fired because of this?

A CEO of a large company like Bus Eireann tends to get well paid on a risk and reward basis. When things go well for a corporation the CEO does very well out of it. When things go horribly wrong (to the extent that lives are lost) shouldn't resignations be expected? (If they've already happened please ignore this post and excuse my ignorance).

shltter

Victor wrote: »

shltter wrote:

That is not true and it is an attempt to pass the buck

I think they are admitting their management / QA system wasn't working, not the ABS system.

My problem with that line is

In hindsight our systems were not robust enough to detect when work on ABS was not being carried out properly.

It sounds like there was being work carried out on the ABS but it was not being done correctly and they failed to pick this up. This sounds like they were instructing someone to do the work but their systems were not picking up that work was not being done to standard

The truth is that the ABS had been disconnected and the company charged with maintaining the vehicle were not even aware that the vehicle had ABS fitted. So they had never been asked to do any work.

There was no system to detect if work on the ABS was been done properly because there was no work to be done as the company had made a decision to disable the ABS.

Victor

http://www.buseireann.ie/news.php?id=646&month=Aug

Bus Éireann Statement

Today at Trim Coroner's Court, an inquest returned a verdict on the tragic loss of five children at Kentstown on the 23rd May 2005, of accidental death arising from their injuries sustained in the school bus accident.

Following the verdict, the Chief Operating Officer of Bus Éireann, Mr Martin Nolan, said in a statement, the following:

“Today is a very sad occasion, and one which must be very difficult for the families who tragically lost their daughters on the 23rd May 2005.

On behalf of Bus Éireann I would like to extend the heartfelt condolences of everyone of us to the families of the five girls. We deeply regret the pain and grief the accident in Kentstown has caused them and our thoughts and sympathies remain with the families.”

Monday, 11th August, 2008