Vote on the Lisbon Treaty here. (Quit yer bitchin')

biko

I've seen plenty of call for a poll on this so here goes:
This is your chance to see what boards (a prefect representation of the Irish population) is going to Vote.

edit: could a AH mod pls change the poll close date to 13th instead?

Dave!

Okay

Xavi6

Atari I haven't a clue what it's all about

robinph

It would be a no from me, if I could.

ninebeanrows

The reasons why people are voting no are absurd.

Don't ruin Europe on us all, if you're voting in protest in the government, please just abstain from voting.

ruskin

Lisbon is bad for Ireland. My main gripe with this treaty is as follows:

1. Military spending MUST be incresed (why should Ireland, a neutral country do this?)
2. Ireland cannot have an independent foreign policy that conflicts with the EU majority. Even if the majority of the Irish republic disagree with a European action, Ireland as a country MUST support Europe.
3. Corporation tax will be incresed.
4. The health services will become more privatised.
5. The overall concept of Ireland being a 'state' of europe instead of a country does not sit well with me.

If it is rejected, in spite of what the politicians say, it WILL AND MUST be renegotiated in order to give Ireland a better deal. Cowen and co. just dont want the hastle of doing this as it shows them losing face.


The Irish public has a chance here to say to Europe that though we may be small, we have a voice, and the fatcats in Europe choking on their red tape must listen to us

Steve_o

I don't understand it... if someone could explain it in Laymans terms I'd be able to make a better decision, because all the Politicians do is argue and talk over each other and as a result, I haven't a fu**in clue whats goin' on... This political bullsh** of throwing statements around, only to have someone say the exact opposite is pi**ing me off, and annoying thing is, all these statements by both sides are not being backed up with references to the Treaty document itself, so I haven't a clue who is telling the truth (if there is one) and who's scaremongering!!! As a reult i don't know how i'm voting, but i'm am leaning to the NO side at the moment, its seems like the safe option, because i dont get it...:mad:

Sorry for ranting!

humanji

There should be options for "I'm voting yes/no and don't know why" and " I'm voting no to punish the government for something unrelated/because other countries have a problem with their governments".

humanji

Steve_o wrote:

I don't understand it... if someone could explain it in Laymans terms I'd be able to make a better decision, because all the Politicians do is argue and talk over each other and as a result, I haven't a fu**in clue whats goin' on... This political bullsh** of throwing statements around, only to have someone say the exact opposite is pi**ing me off, and annoying thing is, all these statements by both sides are not being backed up with references to the Treaty document itself, so I haven't a clue who is telling the truth (if there is one) and who's scaremongering!!! As a reult i don't know how i'm voting, but i'm am leaning to the NO side at the moment, its seems like the safe option, because i dont get it...

Sorry for ranting!

Basically, for the layman, it'll mean f*ck all noticeable difference in your life. The Yes scaremongers will tell you that voting no will destroy Ireland, but it won't. And the No scaremongers will tell you that voting yes will destroy Ireland, but it won't.

Irishcrx

I'm voting no I have my reasons and I know what it is all about just not arsed rambling on about it again.

Steve_o

humanji wrote: »

Basically, for the layman, it'll mean f*ck all noticeable difference in your life. The Yes scaremongers will tell you that voting no will destroy Ireland, but it won't. And the No scaremongers will tell you that voting yes will destroy Ireland, but it won't.

Which way are you going to vote yourself?

Spud83

Boards does not represtent Ireland at all. If they did we would have a FG goverment right now.

humanji

Steve_o wrote: »

Which way are you going to vote yourself?

Currently thinking yes (it might change), because I see a tiny amount of benefit and nothing really bad about it at all.

Sherifu

AJ, Irish.

darkman2

Voting no - because of the cynical attempt to make the treaty completely unreadable after reconsidering it last night. Sorry but I would have voted yes otherwise but its just such a blatant exercise at intimidation of the Irish electorate and complete disrespect in the EU parliment for democracy. Remember the EU parliment (this great 'democratic' institution) has voted to IGNORE the Irish vote. They have already voted to ignore their own electorate's for cycnical reasons. Not even consider it but IGNORE it. It was so blatant. If thats their message to us - I will send my message to them through voting no.

Sam Vimes

ruskin wrote: »

3. Corporation tax will be incresed.

this is not true. most of your other points are debatable but this one is 100% not true. maybe you should get the truth before you make a decision based on a poster you read.

as i've been saying in another thread, i'm still undecided because i don't believe anything either side are telling me and i don't have the time, inclination or competence to read the treaty for myself so it's unlikely i'll vote. i voted AJ above

Winters

darkman2 wrote: »

Voting no - because of the cynical attempt to make the treaty completely unreadable after reconsidering it last night. Sorry but I would have voted yes otherwise but its just such a blatant exercise at intimidation of the Irish electorate and complete disrespect in the EU parliment for democracy. Remember the EU parliment (this great 'democratic' institution) has voted to IGNORE the Irish vote. They have already voted to ignore their own electorate's for cycnical reasons. Not even consider it but IGNORE it. It was so blatant. If thats their message to us - I will send my message to them through voting no.

I know i am going to get banned for this for a while. But you are a ****ing idiot. Its a legal document that is filled with a lot of legal talk and big words to stop as many loopholes and dangers from appearing etc.. You don't refuse to use a solicitor/lawyer just because you don't understand the big complex words they use in court do you?

If you don't understand it don't vote on it. And don't be a ****ing child and vote No because you cant understand it. There is a wealth of information out there from both sides, from independent positions all over the web, on news papers etc.

If you don't understand it then don't vote, let the people who do understand it vote. If you dislike the government and want to vote no just to spite them, stay at home and don't vote. Read up on information yourselves and vote either yes or no depdning on what suits you best. Dont be a ****ing muppet.

mikemac

Voting yes.

The poll is worthless. FF would have been destroyed in last election if you believed the boards polls.
But the type of person who uses Boards are often the type least likely to vote. (youngish, less conservative,)

Winters

micmclo wrote: »

Voting yes.

The poll is worthless. FF would have been destroyed in last election if you believed the boards polls.
But the type of person who uses Boards are often the type least likely to vote. (youngish, less conservative,)

Nerds find it difficult enough to get up to go pee, let alone to get up and go vote

darkman2

Summer Glau wrote: »

But you are a ****ing idiot.

:eek: but im still voting no.

Daftendirekt

ruskin wrote: »

Lisbon is bad for Ireland. My main gripe with this treaty is as follows:

1. Military spending MUST be incresed (why should Ireland, a neutral country do this?)
2. Ireland cannot have an independent foreign policy that conflicts with the EU majority. Even if the majority of the Irish republic disagree with a European action, Ireland as a country MUST support Europe.
3. Corporation tax will be incresed.
4. The health services will become more privatised.
5. The overall concept of Ireland being a 'state' of europe instead of a country does not sit well with me.

1. Not technically true. The treaty says we will have to improve our military capabilities. That's pretty vague, and open to interpretation, although it is debateable.

2. False. The treaty specifically says that any military action undertaken under the common defense policy must respect the foreign policy of the member states. Also, the triple lock system will still be in place.

3. Blatantly false. This has been refuted again and again and again. The EU has no control over direct taxation, and Lisbon doesn't change that. Besides, we wouldn't be the only member state to oppose tax harmonization, and even if it was pushed on us, we'd have to have a referendum.

4. Again, false. Not too knowledgeable in this area to be honest, but from what I've read Lisbon won't affect public services, like transport, health, education, etc. AFAIK all it does is close certain loopholes in the competition laws that would allow privatised former publicly owned companies to benefit at the expense of privately owned comanies.

5. Ireland is already a state of Europe, and won't any more or less so if Lisbon passes.

johnnyq

Weathercheck wrote: »

The reasons why people are voting no are absurd.

Don't ruin Europe on us all, if you're voting in protest in the government, please just abstain from voting.

Don't patronise people there are much better reasons than voting no than voting yes:

5 reasons to vote No:

1) Endorsement of the Arms Industry and militarisation of the EU
2) The treaty does not do anything to prevent the power of Big Business over workers rights following recent EU court judgements
3) We still have an unelected commission who sets EU laws PLUS we get an unelected President and Foreign Minister (under different names of course)
4) Ireland loses 30+ vetos in exchange for vitually NOTHING.
5) This treaty is 96% the same as the EU constitution which was already rejected by French & Dutch voters who are not allowed vote again

This treaty is particularly right wing and needs to be renegotiated. It's no wonder that the Trade Unions and Left Wing politicians like Senator David Norris is voting No.

ruskin

Whenever a majority of politicians tell you something will benefit you, then you can safely bet that it wont"

vote no

Daftendirekt

ruskin wrote: »

Whenever a majority of politicians tell you something will benefit you, then you can safely bet that it wont"

vote no

Whenever Sinn Féin tell you something won't benefit you, then you can safely bet that it will.

See what I did there?

humanji

Summer Glau wrote: »

Nerds find it difficult enough to get up to go pee, let alone to get up and go vote

Why would you bother to get up?

suspectdevice

i never vote but i am actually going out to vote on this. i'm an anarchist, truly. but in the true anarchic tradition, i rely on the inherent good nature of my fellow citizens in order for calm to prevail. so i am not supporting democracy, i am supporting you all that want a no vote.

marco murphy

Voting No will not bring chaos to Ireland, which is what some Fianna Fail representatives claim. Dermot Ahern himself said that it will have no effect if we vote no, and that was on his visit to Argentina. France and Holland voted against the same thing in 2005. The inflow of foreign direct investment to France shot up from $32.6bn (€20.8bn) in 2004 to $81 (€51.6bn) in 2005 when the French voted no and also to $81bn (€51.6bn) in 2006. Opponents of the treaty do not claim that the no vote was good for investment, merely that it had absolutely no detrimental effect. There more likely thing to happen is that France will push their agenda to harmonise corporation tax, which will see jobs being shifted from here.

Vote No - Then we all can have input into garnering a better deal.

useful_contacts

no













no


















AND NO















:cool:

Agamemnon

I don't know what way I'll be voting yet so I'll be keeping an eye on these threads to get an idea of the arguments on either side. I am also willing to trade my vote for sexual favours, so if you want me on your side, put out or get me some lovin'.

Daftendirekt

Agamemnon wrote: »

I don't know what way I'll be voting yet so I'll be keeping an eye on these threads to get an idea of the arguments on either side. I am also willing to trade my vote for sexual favours, so if you want me on your side, put out or get me some lovin'.

ASL???

(Heavy breathing)

prendy

darkman2 wrote: »

:eek: but im still voting no.

its your stated reason for voting no that makes you an idiot.

have already voted to ignore their own electorate's for cycnical reasons. Not even consider it but IGNORE it. It was so blatant. If thats their message to us - I will send my message to them through voting no.

what the fcuk has this to do with the Lisbon treaty?

Sam Vimes

johnnyq wrote: »

1) Endorsement of the Arms Industry and militarisation of the EU

in what way? where in the treaty does it say that?

johnnyq wrote: »

2) The treaty does not do anything to prevent the power of Big Business over workers rights following recent EU court judgements

so we're voting no because of what it doesn't do? well it also doesn't abolish weekends. that must be a reason to vote yes!

johnnyq wrote: »

3) We still have an unelected commission who sets EU laws

again, that stays the same regardless of a yes or no vote

johnnyq wrote: »

PLUS we get an unelected President and Foreign Minister (under different names of course)

yet again, we already do. the only difference is the president serves for two years instead of six months

johnnyq wrote: »

4) Ireland loses 30+ vetos in exchange for vitually NOTHING.

what are these vetos? are they important? does changing these things to QMV make the EU work more efficiently without negatively affecting us?

johnnyq wrote: »

5) This treaty is 96% the same as the EU constitution which was already rejected by French & Dutch voters who are not allowed vote again

both parties who are currently in power said that if they were elected they would vote yes. maybe it's an important 4%. we share 99% of our dna with monkeys for example

johnnyq wrote: »

This treaty is particularly right wing and needs to be renegotiated. It's no wonder that the Trade Unions and Left Wing politicians like Senator David Norris is voting No.

in what way is it right wing? personally i think it's right wing to make sweeping statements without any back up, such as the above

ScumLord

ruskin wrote: »

Lisbon is bad for Ireland. My main gripe with this treaty is as follows:

1. Military spending MUST be increased (why should Ireland, a neutral country do this?)
2. Ireland cannot have an independent foreign policy that conflicts with the EU majority. Even if the majority of the Irish republic disagree with a European action, Ireland as a country MUST support Europe.
3. Corporation tax will be incresed.
4. The health services will become more privatised.
5. The overall concept of Ireland being a 'state' of europe instead of a country does not sit well with me.

I was going to reply but it's all been done better. From what I've been told that post is all lies. Reading the book I'm pretty sure I saw veto next to all those points.


On Irish neutrality though, I don't think Europe is going to go around picking fights and dragging us into them. Europe's not prone to war mongering. At the same time if Spain or one of our EU cousins gets attacked we should help them and god forbid we got attacked. It would be necessary for Europe to help us because we couldn't defend the country from the gale force wind. That's nothing against our lads their the best they can be but our army is an afterthought.



Tis a big yes for me, I'm pro eastern European birds.

darkman2

prendy wrote: »

its your stated reason for voting no that makes you an idiot.



what the fcuk has this to do with the Lisbon treaty?

This attitude from the yes side - which I use to support is exactly why this treaty wont pass. Calling me an idiot for stating my reason to vote no does not help the yes cause. Im voting no on the principles involved and also an issue in the treaty from the line which is to deal with 'distortion of competition' in which I believe our corporate tax rate is open to a court challenge. It is the line in the treaty which, without mentioning direct or indirect taxation, is the serious gamble. How can you have 'distortion of competition' through indirect taxation? An increase in corporate tax in this country could very well be fatal to our economy.

I am not an idiot for voting no. I have a democratic right to do so.

ruskin

Im sick of people who think they know what the treaty is about mocking those who intend to vote know because they do not understand the treaty. There is nothing wrong with voting no because you do not understand the treaty. You would never in your right mind sign a contract you dont understand, so why would you do the same thing here? If you are unsure, then vote no.

cornbb

I'll be voting yes.

Lets make a few things clear -

- Voting no because you "can't understand the legal mumbo jumbo" (or more likely can't be arsed trying to understand it) is stupid. Apparently 30% of people who intend to vote no fall into this bracket. Go to theReferendum Comissioner's website (the only source you can assume will be somewhat neutral) and read the facts, not some stupid scaremongering propoganda from either side. Stay at home if you still really can't understand it.

- Voting no because you're protesting against the government is stupid.

- Voting no because you've been brainwashed into thinking scary things are gonna happen is stupid. This includes anything anything with the keywords abortion, euthanasia, militirisation, conscription and harmonised tax rates.

I honestly can't believe people are being scared so much by all of this. Go and read the facts. Its not a big deal people!

darkman2

ruskin wrote: »

You would never in your right mind sign a contract you dont understand, so why would you do the same thing here?

Obviously certain people here would. We are not called the stupid Irish for nothing.

They can go on calling me and others idiots for voting no but it does not help the yes side.

Dinner

ruskin wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with voting no because you do not understand the treaty. You would never in your right mind sign a contract you dont understand, so why would you do the same thing here? If you are unsure, then vote no.

No, you stop being so lazy and read any of the millions of sites out there to understand the treaty then decide. If you are given a contract you don't understand you go and ask someone who does understand it to translate it for you. You don't have a strop and refuse to read it.

Voting no becuase you don't agree with it is fine, but voting no because you're to lazy or stupid to find out whats in it is ridiculous.

The same stands for those who are voting no because they don't like the government.

johnnyq

Let's look at some of the reasons to vote yes:
Okay let's take your three points:

Efficient:
Wouldn't it be more 'efficient' if the Irish people didn't have a public vote for the Lisbon treaty - since legal experts have been saying that Ireland didn't actually need to have one this time. 'Efficiency' at the expense of accountability is not a good thing.

Transparent:
Lol, do you call the 300+ pages of the unitelligable Lisbon Treaty transparent? What a good starting point for a more transparent Europe!!!
Since Lisbon is already a smokescreen 96% of the Constitution which was already rejected, this doesn't hail much for your argument of transparency.

Benefits of the EU:
Yes there have been benefits and because we contribute MORE from now on, Europe's investment will be repaid. That's the give take nature of the EU.
BUT that does not mean we have to sell our democracy in the process and turn the EU into an unaccountable militarisated state.

darkman2

Arabel wrote: »

Voting no becuase you don't agree with it is fine, but voting no because you're to lazy or stupid to find out whats in it is ridiculous.

Go on then, explain it. Ive tried to read it three times and whilst I understand some of it.....most of it is unreadable and for certain people to come on here and accuse people of being lazy or stupid or idiots - epecially when their preference all along is biased toward a yes vote is an act of monumental stupidity on their part. Why? Because your treating the vast majority of the Irish people like that who say they DONT understand it. People, rightly, wont be treated like that and the Yes campaign will get the bloody nose it deserves. Dont treat people like that. This is a democracy. Im fed up with all these little Hitler types issuing the threats and insulting voters because they dont agree with them.

ruskin

Arabel wrote: »

No, you stop being so lazy and read any of the millions of sites out there to understand the treaty then decide. If you are given a contract you don't understand you go and ask someone who does understand it to translate it for you. You don't have a strop and refuse to read it.

Voting no becuase you don't agree with it is fine, but voting no because you're to lazy or stupid to find out whats in it is ridiculous.

The same stands for those who are voting no because they don't like the government.

Its great that there are 'yes-men' like you Arabel who are there to tell us the stupid, lazy Irish public what is best for us

jimmycrackcorm

i'm voting yes because i haven't seen a single truth in the no campaign arguments. The closest they come hp speculation.

Posted via Mobile Device

I'm voting no for one reason alone.

Solidarity between Member States: the Treaty of Lisbon provides that the Union and its Member States act jointly in a spirit of solidarity if a Member State is the subject of a terrorist attack or the victim of a natural or man-made disaster.

From: http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm

Now, with a terrorist threat always in the air these days, I am not taking the chance of having being forced into a war. When London was subject to the terrorist attacks, what would've happened there? We go to war against the arabs? Start a new world war?

No Thank you very much.

Dinner

darkman2 wrote: »

Go on then, explain it. Ive tried to read it three times and whilst I understand some of it.....most of it is unreadable and for certain people to come on here and accuse people of being lazy or stupid or idiots - epecially when their preference all along is biased toward a yes vote is an act of monumental stupidity on their part.

People like Sink, Scofflaw and Johnnyq have gone through great lengths to argue
their respective opinions in a very clear way in the EU Forum. Which I have found to be the easiest way of understanding the main points of the treaty.

Do I know it inside out? Of course not, and I'm not saying every voter should. I'm just saying that every voter should attempt to make an informed opinion on their vote rather than voting no because they decided not to try.

Is that so much to ask?

cornbb

Papa Smut wrote: »

I'm voting no for one reason alone.

Solidarity between Member States: the Treaty of Lisbon provides that the Union and its Member States act jointly in a spirit of solidarity if a Member State is the subject of a terrorist attack or the victim of a natural or man-made disaster.

From: http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm

Now, with a terrorist threat always in the air these days, I am not taking the chance of having being forced into a war. When London was subject to the terrorist attacks, what would've happened there? We go to war against the arabs? Start a new world war?

No Thank you very much.

We can't be "forced into a war":

http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/lisbon_treaty_changes_eu.html#e wrote:

E. Mutual Assistance

The Treaty provides that Member States have an obligation to aid and assist another Member State which is the victim of armed aggression. This assistance is to be in accordance with the UN Charter. The type of aid and assistance that is required is not specified. Mutual assistance is expressly stated not to compromise the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States which includes Ireland’s policy on neutrality.

Hogmeister B

While a lot of people are voting no because they simply don't understand the legal jargon, it should be pointed out that several key drafters of the treaty (Jean-Claude Juncker and Valery Giscard d'Estaing) have stated that the treaty was purposely designed to be inaccesible to the average citizen.

Even after studying law for two years, i myself find it incredibly difficult to understand.

It is in no way stupid to vote no on a treaty that, far from being a naturally complicated legal text, is designed to be unreadable.

darkman2

Arabel wrote: »

Is that so much to ask?

No of course not. Its open to so many different interpretations that court challenges on practically every issue seem likely. Whether they would succeed or not is moot point - i.e taxation. Its the idea that we are going make ourselves vulnerable that is sitting uneasy with alot of voters.


I would also like to counter the argument above saying that an increase in defence spending is not called for. It is under this treaty. Now, I support an increase in defence spending in this country - but it is untrue to say that there is no commitment to do so under this constitution. The French President has been talking about over the last few weeks despite being asked to keep his mouth shut for now so the treaty passes in Ireland. I hope he keeps talking!

prendy

darkman2 wrote: »

This attitude from the yes side - which I use to support is exactly why this treaty wont pass. Calling me an idiot for stating my reason to vote no does not help the yes cause. Im voting no on the principles involved and also an issue in the treaty from the line which is to deal with 'distortion of competition' in which I believe our corporate tax rate is open to a court challenge. It is the line in the treaty which, without mentioning direct or indirect taxation, is the serious gamble. How can you have 'distortion of competition' through indirect taxation? An increase in corporate tax in this country could very well be fatal to our economy.

I am not an idiot for voting no. I have a democratic right to do so.

where in your earlier post did you give those reasons, i called you an idiot based on the reason you gave not the way you were voting.

have already voted to ignore their own electorate's for cycnical reasons. Not even consider it but IGNORE it. It was so blatant. If thats their message to us - I will send my message to them through voting no.

what you said in your last post makes sense although i dont agree with it so therefore i retract my idiot comment.

i do still however feel that an awfull lot of people are voting no to "get one over on the government". this Treaty from what iv read on it does not impact ourr day to day lives, it merely sets in stone whats already being done.

And no it doesnt affect any of our tax rates, that is explicity stated in it.

if it did affect corp tax then i would be deffo voting against it as i wouldnt have a job!

Dave!

Papa Smut wrote: »

I'm voting no for one reason alone.

Solidarity between Member States: the Treaty of Lisbon provides that the Union and its Member States act jointly in a spirit of solidarity if a Member State is the subject of a terrorist attack or the victim of a natural or man-made disaster.

From: http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm

Now, with a terrorist threat always in the air these days, I am not taking the chance of having being forced into a war. When London was subject to the terrorist attacks, what would've happened there? We go to war against the arabs? Start a new world war?

No Thank you very much.

Can you find where it says in the treaty that we must provide military assistance in such an event?

WooPeeA

Papa Smut wrote: »

Now, with a terrorist threat always in the air these days, I am not taking the chance of having being forced into a war. When London was subject to the terrorist attacks, what would've happened there? We go to war against the arabs? Start a new world war?

No Thank you very much.

What if Ireland will be attacked by bloody terrorists or Irish tourist will be kidnapped somewhere in the world? After Lisbon Treaty you can be sure that brothers from other countries will stand next to you to help (btw. there's no even a single word in Lisbot Treaty about attacking anybody).

You must be aware of the fact that terrorists crime organizations really don't care about where are you from, all they care is amount of their victims.

humanji

ruskin wrote: »

Im sick of people who think they know what the treaty is about mocking those who intend to vote know because they do not understand the treaty. There is nothing wrong with voting no because you do not understand the treaty. You would never in your right mind sign a contract you dont understand, so why would you do the same thing here? If you are unsure, then vote no.

That is just a ridiculous argument. To use your analogy (and to rip off a post someone made somewhere else), there are two contracts in front of you. One that says yes and one that says no. If you're unsure, you're better off signing neither, or finding out about both contracts.