New Alcohol Legislation re: Opening Hours

odyssey06

Apparently the government are passing legislation which will end early houses, also off licences can't open until 1030am - does anyone know if this affects supermarkets also? Will they be able to sell beer before 1030am?
Edit: Just read the full Indo article and apparently it will affect supermarkets.

Other features of the new legislation:
(1) Off-licence opening hours will be significantly cut back. They will open from 10.30am -- not 7.30am, as now -- until 10pm. Sunday opening hours will be from 12.30pm to 10pm.

(2) Provisions allowing early morning opening of pubs near fairs and markets will be repealed.

(3) Off-licences and the advertising of alcohol in supermarkets will have to be clearly separated. Where this is not possible, it must be sold from behind a counter.

(4) Gardai can seize drink from anyone in a public space if they look likely to cause disruption. Officers will also be able to take drink from those under 18 in public if they believe it is not going to be consumed in a private home.

(5) The Bill sets out detailed regulations to restrict or ban advertising drink at a cut price. In addition, regulations may be introduced to ban events which could encourage heavy drinking.

Please move if posted to wrong forum...

BeerNut

odyssey06 wrote: »

Sunday opening hours will be from 12.30pm to 10pm.

I'm especially miffed at this one, as the Government-appointed Advisory Group's recommendation was to standardise opening at 10.30 every day. But obviously there's a real danger someone going to 11 o'clock Mass will be tempted in to the offy to buy cans of Linden Village instead, with dire consequences for our national moral fibre.

odyssey06 wrote: »

Off-licences and the advertising of alcohol in supermarkets will have to be clearly separated.

Building this will take time. There'll be a planning process to be gone through in a lot of cases, I'd say. However, Tesco in Rathmines will be feeling particularly smug right about now.

odyssey06

I don't think (1) or (2) will make much difference. Is there is a significant problem with buying alcohol in supermarkets before 1030am? Or with early houses causing public disorder?

I thought Gardai already had the powers listed in (4).

Some supermarkets and shops have been a bit lax in (3) so this one seems fair enough.

And (5) is a bit questionable.

oblivious

odyssey06 wrote: »

I don't think (1) or (2) will make much difference. Is there is a significant problem with buying alcohol in supermarkets before 1030am? Or with early houses causing public disorder.

not really, but its looks like the government see the publican as a provider of good alcohol and off sale from shop as bad

the beer revolu

oblivious wrote: »

not really, but its looks like the government see the publican as a provider of good alcohol and off sale from shop as bad

I thought that offies couldn't open till 10.30 already.
Also, supermarkets don't see alcohol as soon as they open - again, I thought it was 10.30.

And to second the point; What is so different about Sunday for buying alcohol?

odyssey06

the beer revolu wrote: »

I thought that offies couldn't open till 10.30 already. Also, supermarkets don't see alcohol as soon as they open - again, I thought it was 10.30

Off licences couldn't open until 1030, but supermarkets could sell alcohol from 8am as part of their normal trading hours as they are "mixed traders". So the legislation is bringing the hours for mixed traders in line with pure off licences.

And Sunday has always been later at 1230 for both supermarkets and off licences.

lostexpectation

what about closing time and club hours???

BeerNut

the beer revolu wrote: »

And to second the point; What is so different about Sunday for buying alcohol?

"Remember the Sabbath Day, To Keep it Holy and not get Langered until the Early Afternoon, and Only Then in a Pub with Ear-Splitting Formula 1 on All Six Plasmas." -- Deuteronomy 5:12 (VFI edition).

lostexpectation wrote:

what about closing time and club hours???

No change yet, but late licensees must have CCTV installed.

The bill is here, btw.

Looks like there'll be no more collecting or using your supermarket loyalty points on drink either -- section 15.

Blisterman

odyssey06 wrote: »

(5) The Bill sets out detailed regulations to restrict or ban advertising drink at a cut price. In addition, regulations may be introduced to ban events which could encourage heavy drinking.

This is worrying.
Irelands enough of a rip off anyway. This is only going to make it worse.

Also "Encouraging heavy drinking". WFT? Can people not make decisions for themselves any more?

God I hate this whole nanny state bullcrap. It's amazing how the human race lasted until now, without these laws.

BeerNut

Blisterman wrote: »

Irelands enough of a rip off anyway. This is only going to make it worse.

Only if you're not a publican.

kenmc

odyssey06 wrote: »

In addition, regulations may be introduced to ban events which could encourage heavy drinking.

So there goes Paddys Day, Christmas and Weekends

DenMan

Take me back to Vienna. Down the road from the hotel was a EuroSpar and you can buy all alcohol from 7am. Happy Days

yoyo

Ok, So this means people will stock up knowing the offie will close earlier and prob get more drunk as a result on said day, more brilliant logic and ideas from the irish government, its it 100% official now?

Nick

BeerNut

yoyo wrote: »

its it 100% official now?

It's not the law yet, if that's what you mean. There's still time to write to your TDs to ask them to vote against it.

'Cos that'll work.

yoyo

BeerNut wrote: »

It's not the law yet, if that's what you mean. There's still time to write to your TDs to ask them to vote against it.

'Cos that'll work.

Lmao dont think they'll do anything, im not on the voting register which cant help lol!

Nick

grenache

odyssey06 wrote: »

I don't think (1) or (2) will make much difference. Is there is a significant problem with buying alcohol in supermarkets before 1030am?

Not in supermarkets, but in off-licences there is. I work in one in Limerick and we open at 9am. So from that early hour you have whinos coming in and buying drink, then drinking it outside on the streets surrounding the shop - its not good for the locality or the shops image. I'm delighted this legislation is being brought in - it will lessen the likelyhood of street drinkers hanging around in the early morning, and i get an extra 90 minutes in the leaba

BeerNut

And an early night as well.

oblivious

grenache wrote: »

and i get an extra 90 minutes in the leaba

Will they not have you in working away or will you not be down 90 minutes pay?

Blisterman

grenache wrote: »

Not in supermarkets, but in off-licences there is. I work in one in Limerick and we open at 9am. So from that early hour you have whinos coming in and buying drink, then drinking it outside on the streets surrounding the shop - its not good for the locality or the shops image. I'm delighted this legislation is being brought in - it will lessen the likelyhood of street drinkers hanging around in the early morning, and i get an extra 90 minutes in the leaba

Maybe the shops should just refuse to serve the Winos. It hardly helps their reputation, anyway.
I know the off licence in Clonskeagh does that.

grenache

oblivious wrote: »

Will they not have you in working away or will you not be down 90 minutes pay?

We will open at 10.30am so thats when i start work. One cannot do much work if the shop is not open. And yes i'll be down in pay, I do one or two 9-11 shifts per week, so now that will a 10.30-10 shift, thus i'll be receiving 2.5 hours less pay.

odyssey06

Update: The government has rowed back on a few features of the legislation. I think we should be worried when they base changes like this on 'anecdotal' evidence.

From today's Indo:
Justice Minister Dermot Ahern had cited "anecdotal evidence" that they were being used by problem drinkers, but told the Dail last night that he was "now disposed" to allow them to retain their early opening hours. The news has been welcomed by the owners of around 40 such pubs in the country, including the seven early houses in the Donegal fishing port of Killybegs, three in Cork city, and 12 in Dublin. However, the new Intoxicating Bill will not allow any new early houses to be opened and will prevent existing early houses from selling take-out alcohol in the mornings... The move to abolish the early houses was recommended by the Government's Alcohol Advisory Group, which said their original purpose when set up 80 years ago -- to serve fairs and markets -- no longer applied.
Mr Ahern also announced that he was deferring legislation which would have required supermarkets, petrol stations and shops to voluntarily introduce "separation walls" to keep alcohol products away from groceries.
He said he would allow retailers to implemented an independently verified "code of practice" (including separation walls) instead.

rubadub

odyssey06 wrote: »

Sunday opening hours will be from 12.30pm to 10pm.

Laws are still based around some mythological character supposed to have died 2000 years ago. Crazy stuff.

Hours were brought in to help with the war effort, the war is over guys, plenty of people do not work 9-5 anymore either, 24hr is the only fair thing to do. Why should shift workers have their social lives dictated to them with reasoning from the early 1900's or 2000 years ago.

BeerNut

rubadub wrote: »

Why should shift workers have their social lives dictated to them with reasoning from the early 1900's or 2000 years ago.

Because Irish people people have shown themselves consistently incapable of drinking sensibly. Liberalise drinking times and the country will asplode. Nanny has to control us because we can't control ourselves.

And, according to the TV, we've had enough.

Borderline prohibition right there is what that is there (said like John Giles)

Prof.Badass

If people feel their freedom is being limited then subconciously they will rebel.

That's why a very very small minority of people act irresponsibly.

Nothing bad will happen with 24 hour drinking cept for less people being stabbed coz everyone goes home at different times not only meaning less people on the streets at any time but also way smaller queues for taxi's.

Frankiestylee

odyssey06 wrote: »

(4) Gardai can seize drink from anyone in a public space if they look likely to cause disruption. Officers will also be able to take drink from those under 18 in public if they believe it is not going to be consumed in a private home.

..

I'm not a fan of that one really... I got a warning the other day after buying some beer. I was standing outside the shop where I bought the cans, just waiting for one of the other lads, stone cold sober and a garda walked by, stopped, doubled back and gave us a warning. I wish this bit of the bill was a bit less subjective, some members of the Gardai don't exactly have the best subjective judgement I've found.

sioda

Does this mean I can no longer get a breakfast at a pub at 8 in the morning??

BeerNut

Nope. The only way pubs are affected is a further reduction in the extent to which they need to compete for business. The early houses are safe. You'll need to go to one for your eye-opener as the petrol stations aren't allowed sell it to you for another half hour.

girl_friday

Apparently this all came into being at midnight tonight... I read the paper 5 out of 7 days and heard nothing about this til the news tonight! Apparently it will effect nightclubs too...

Anyone know if it effects bar extensions for special functions or residents bars in hotels?? Just curious as I have a few hens/weddings/50th birthday parties coming up...

Thanks

BeerNut

girl_friday wrote: »

Anyone know if it effects bar extensions for special functions or residents bars in hotels??

I shouldn't think so, unless they're using a dodgy theatre licence.

Elem

Theatre licence is gone so no more nightclubs.. everyones getting a publicans licence so you won't have 3.30 late opening anymore.

BeerNut

Elem wrote: »

Theatre licence is gone so no more nightclubs.. everyones getting a publicans licence so you won't have 3.30 late opening anymore.

Where do you see this?

Late licences ("special exemption orders") are still allowed for, they just have new conditions attached. It's Section 10 of the bill (p.9).

Irishstabber

Had first hand experience of the newest gov't farce last night. Went out for a drink after work(I'm a barman) but unfortunately couldn't enjoy myself in the hour I had. Tried the Viper rooms after Purty Kitchen closed to chance it. But no the little man was screwed over by the gov't again. I wouldnt mind the places which did enjoy special exemption orders such as coppers and viper rooms etc aren't the type of place in which you would find 'scum' or any bad riff-raff. Just decent people having a good time.
I dont for one second understand the mindframe of the gov't which is hurting the employment of many people by doing this. And not only barmen and security staff but I'm pretty sure our tourist sector will be hit. And in the long run it wont make a flaming difference to so called 'binge drinking' and trouble on the streets...infact it may cause more.
Its a massive farce and I dearly hope it wont be long until the gov't realise their stupidity to do such a thing in this day and age.(*cough* when it hits the gov't coffers through excise duty *cough*)

sedohre

The Irish Government sucks! Backward, corrupt and ignorant AH's.

heggie

has any place got these special exemptions on a weekly basis?

BeerNut

Yes. Some places even have late licences several nights a week.

heggie

so for coppers, viper room etc nothing has really changed?

Elem

BeerNut wrote: »

Where do you see this?

Late licences ("special exemption orders") are still allowed for, they just have new conditions attached. It's Section 10 of the bill (p.9).

I manage a nightclub in Dublin city centre, and from Wednesday our theatre licence is removed and we were issued with publican licence. No more after 2.30 drink severing. The bar extension every night to open to 2.30 is now €420, previously €210. These news laws are destroying Irish businesses.

Viper Room, Pal Joeys, SIN and any other business with a theatre licence will close at 2.30, previously 3.30. These new laws come into effect to help 'public order'. Within the next few weeks everyone will realize these new laws will make the streets an unsafe place.

BeerNut

Do you really think that closing an hour early will make that much of a difference? (This is a genuine question -- I'm not a late-night drinker and it doesn't look like much of a change to me.)

Plus, the Irish on-trade rarely have a problem passing on their costs to consumers. €210 a night seems easy enough to recoup on cover price and drinks. What are the margins on a bottle of Ballygowan these days?

Elem

BeerNut wrote: »

Do you really think that closing an hour early will make that much of a difference? (This is a genuine question -- I'm not a late-night drinker and it doesn't look like much of a change to me.)

Plus, the Irish on-trade rarely have a problem passing on their costs to consumers. €210 a night seems easy enough to recoup on cover price and drinks. What are the margins on a bottle of Ballygowan these days?

We only open our doors at 10, our theatre licence only permits us to serve alcohol 1hour before performance. We make all our money in the last hour.. we could have 5 people in the club during the week until 2.30. Most of the customers that come in at this time are industry staff. Monday-Thursday will be recorded at a massive loss for us.. im not going to publish the estimate. People come to our club because it's late opening. We need customers to sell 'Ballygowan'. We also lose one of our best nights, which is Sunday, as the new law states we must close our business day at 1am. We cannot open earlier during the day because i think we will be wasting our time.

Nightclubs don’t make as much money as pubs because we have a lot of expenses i.e. DJs, Lighting, Sound and a lot more staff. I can see all the usual nightclubs closing or trying a different route of business within the next 6 months. Adding the extension to open until 2.30 is €420.

sprinkles

Elem wrote: »

Viper Room, Pal Joeys, SIN and any other business with a theatre licence will close at 2.30, previously 3.30. These new laws come into effect to help 'public order'. Within the next few weeks everyone will realize these new laws will make the streets an unsafe place.

This true? This is yet another backward step for the country. I think people are big and ugly enough to decide when to drink until. All this is doing is forcing EVERYONE our onto the streets at the same time. Taxi/chippers will be swamped with drunkards and the resulting violent incidences will increase. Stagger the closing times and you control the flow of people on the streets.

The government are getting more and more removed from the people imo.

BeerNut

Elem wrote: »

We only open our doors at 10, our theatre licence only permits us to serve alcohol 1hour before performance.

But now you have a full pub licence, right? Can you open earlier and get me and my daytime drinking euros?

Elem wrote: »

We make all our money in the last hour.. we could have 5 people in the club during the week until 2.30.

Could this be because it's the last hour? With the last hour moved to 2.30, it's quite possible that this will remain the case, though there'll doubtless be a period of adjustment while the punters learn this.

Elem wrote: »

We cannot open earlier during the day because i think we will be wasting our time.

Or you could give it a go. Try a different approach to selling drink for a living. This legislation was designed to make life easier for regular publicans. Become a regular publican.

Elem wrote: »

Nightclubs don’t make as much money as pubs because we have a lot of expenses i.e. DJs, Lighting, Sound and a lot more staff. I can see all the usual nightclubs closing or trying a different route of business within the next 6 months.

Which looks like good common sense to me.

Elem wrote: »

Adding the extension to open until 2.30 is €420.

But you're only out €210 since you were already spending €210 a night.

Elem

BeerNut wrote: »

But now you have a full pub licence, right? Can you open earlier and get me and my daytime drinking euros?

We've nothing really to offer people, we are a nightclub. We would have to start doing food.. which cost more money to open a kitchen and staff.


Could this be because it's the last hour? With the last hour moved to 2.30, it's quite possible that this will remain the case, though there'll doubtless be a period of adjustment while the punters learn this.

You werent listening.. it's industry staff we get in our doors at 2.30..

Or you could give it a go. Try a different approach to selling drink for a living. This legislation was designed to make life easier for regular publicans. Become a regular publican.

Which looks like good common sense to me.

It was changed for 'public order' and i was told that from the horses mouth. You give us the money to transform a entire nightclub then? Since its that simple.. planning permission on a temple bar property ect...

But you're only out €210 since you were already spending €210 a night.

We had a theatre licence, we didnt have to pay extensions.

Any more questions?

The Free Man

THIS COUNTRY IS BACKWARDS!

seriously, almost every country i have been in you can get a beer at any hour of the day or night.

im raging!

BeerNut

Elem wrote: »

Any more questions?

Err, no. I think it's fairly clear by now that I know shag-all about your business. Anyway, I hope you can make a go of it under the new regime.

The Free Man wrote: »

seriously, almost every country i have been in you can get a beer at any hour of the day or night.

And in most of them people know how to drink properly, whereas Irish people (or at least those you see spilling onto Camden Street in the early hours of Sunday mornings) don't.

The main problem is that the powers-that-be have got the cause and effect backwards, not copping that alcohol restrictions encourage binge drinking more than they control it.

This, added to the powerful vintners' cartel, leaves us with loud crowded superpubs selling rubbish drink at inflated prices to people who just want to swill as much as possible before they all get kicked out simultaneously.

The new act makes scapegoats of the off-trade. More alcohol legislation is due in the autumn. I'm guessing this one will blame either the bears or the immigants.

Elem

Very bad call for the government. We deserve better.

sedohre

If the Irish people are treated like children, then they will act like children!

Give the responsibility back to the people to make their own choices.

Yeah of course some people would go a bit mad for a while if we had 24hr opening like in countries, but it would balance out in time.

I wish this government would grow up.

Is there actually any way to get the government to abolish this nonsense? Seriously :cool:

Publin

BeerNut wrote: »

And in most of them people know how to drink properly, whereas Irish people (or at least those you see spilling onto Camden Street in the early hours of Sunday mornings) don't.

The main problem is that the powers-that-be have got the cause and effect backwards, not copping that alcohol restrictions encourage binge drinking more than they control it.

This, added to the powerful vintners' cartel, leaves us with loud crowded superpubs selling rubbish drink at inflated prices to people who just want to swill as much as possible before they all get kicked out simultaneously.

The new act makes scapegoats of the off-trade. More alcohol legislation is due in the autumn. I'm guessing this one will blame either the bears or the immigants.

Would agree with all of that. However, I'd suggest that maybe the reason that Irish people don't know how to drink properly, is not helped by how we're treated in relation to it i.e. more regulation, instead of more responsibility.

I'm struggling to understand the Government's thinking if "help[ing] public order" is the (or a major) reason for this legislation, as Elem said. As others on this thread have stated, I can see this leading to further chaos. Everyone kicked out at the one time, everyone going for food at the same time, everyone looking for taxis/buses at the same time. The bigger the (drunken) crowd, the more potential for violence. The same number of Garda will be on the streets at this time I'd imagine, as it would be impractical to make them come in just for an hour or 2 per night.

On top of this, people will continue to drink the same amounts, and those who usually have another hour to drink their fill, will simply order 3, 4 or 5 pints at last orders and lash them back, leaving them more drunk and thus more likely to act foolishly. The drink then only really starts to take its toll on them properly when they hit the air and are kicked out after drinking up time. The potential for violence and the strain on services is only increased by this move to curtail opening hours IMO. At least when a limited number of niteclubs opened until 3:30, the crowds from the late bars/2:30-close pubs had cleared and the next crowd could be better managed by taxis/chippers/Gardi etc.

I also feel sorry for those who work in pubs (or jobs with similar hours). I used to work in one myself and with last orders at half 11, we were all done and ready to get out by half 12/1 o'clock. Now, by the time you get into town, queue for a club, and fight your way to the bar for a pint, it's hardly worth your while with no half 3 clubs.

We're being treated like children, possibly because we (as a nation) act like we do in relation alcohol. However if the semi-taboo status was removed, maybe it wouldn't be seen as such a big deal and people would cop on?? The tightening and tweaking of laws hasn't worked, they would have been better off trying further relaxing the regulations at least for a trial period IMO, although I do believe it would take a while for people to get used to it and pace themselves properly.

Last orders at 2:30 is going to be busier than ever........

As for closing offies earlier, that's just madness. I can't understand it at all. Why?? People are buying the booze, going home and enjoying their purchases. They aren't going to be out on the streets causing trouble or the like (presumably). Ok you can argue buy your drink earlier, but 10:00 pm is hardly that late! Coming out of one of the last showings in the cinema and you and the partner fancy a bottle of wine or few drinks, no longer can you stop off in the offy on the way home. Just a bit of a pain in the arse really and I'm not sure why exactly they've decided to restrict off-licence opening hours? Unless of course it's to force more people into over-priced pubs. Well, all it's going to force me to do it buy my drink earlier. It could however just as easily lead to some people buying a heap more early in the night "just in case" and end up drinking more heavily as a result.

heggie

as I said on another thread, the only reason I can think of for closing off licences early, is to benifit the publican.

Red-Room

Hey there, just reading this thread and I would like to put my tuppence into the cup here.:)

I am a DJ and I work in one of Dublin's late venues covered under a "Theater Licence", the Gaiety. We are arguably the best known late night venue in Dublin and have legally served till the wee hours. Saturday Morning last weekend, I finished working a minute after 3AM, as did my other DJ and two bands in the club. I tidied up my bits and bobs and headed back to my car and left the bar, happy for my nights work to be over. This weekend gone (Bank Holiday) was a different thing altogether.

The club opened on Friday night some 30 minutes early and was empty then as nobody knew we were opened earlier, this will probably be the case for some weeks. Our theater licence (It still exists, by the way) stipulates that the bar serves for 30 minutes after the show/performance. My order was to finish at 2AM as this is the requirement of the Act; the bar continued to serve till 2:30AM. Two regular girls wondered why I stopped so early; I told them it was the new laws and we discussed how they were going to affect the trade in the long term. Lounge staff almost fought over who picked up the few empties that were there to be cleaned up, doormen twiddled thumbs as the usual deluge to head on was replaced by an unblissful silence. We could probably have closed early it was that quiet but in fairness everywhere was quiet; Saturday was no different.:(

The difference of one hour will do a lot of damage to the club as there is less incentive to pay into a club that runs for less than 3 hours in terms of music and dancing. Some venues will go to the wall, there is no doubts about it. Some venues like the Viper room or Pal Joeys genuinely stay open late to offer a late drink in a modicum of comfort and put on a credible show in the form of a live singer/band; these two are stuffed with black shirts of the city's various bars early in the week and are by and large well frequented and well run and enjoyable. These two bars will shut at 1AM on a Sunday, if they can justify opening Sunday's anymore. Venues like Sin, Copperface Jacks and the George (I understand it recently got a Theater Licence though I could be wrong here) have taken the piss out of the Theatre Licence to make a fast buck and have to accept some of the blame for the cull in hours. Compare the Gaiety (12-15 door staff and as many bar staff), full CCTV, space, quiet areas, safety curtains, 2 bands, 2 DJ's and a cinema show and an electrician on site with other late night venues and while we are a different business in so many ways, in terms of drinking and entertainment we are now lashed into the same category as every pub in the city; we are just another pub. While we availed of the performance aspect of the licence held to make extra money, it was still done within the terms; no taking the mickey of the law as some places have done.

Most of all though, the inability of punters and publicans to act rationally and sensibly during the green paper stage of the Act has led to the current situation being as harsh as it sounds. It is as simple as this; many Irish people can't seem to drink without doing trebles or shot rallies or mega cocktails and for the most part, it happens in late bars in towns and city centres. I work at weddings and birthdays as well out of town in the "locals" and they are far more civil than some of what you see in town even with an exemption applied for; undoubtedly that is because of the drinking environment of the event. Publicans also have to accept that they need to do more to encourage safer drinking, a lesson they have not learnt since they cried wolf with Mícheal Martin with the Smoking Ban a few short years ago.

I await comments and replies/contradictions eagerly and hope I have made sense in what I have said.:)