Squats - smith machine or Dumbell's?

Chucky the tree

which is better? Obviously no rack to do them with.

Pen1987

Dumbell squats?


I'd go with smith machine!

BossArky

Pen, you are kidding right?

OP, google goblet squats.

Hanley

Clean it and front squat it.

cowzerp

If its going for heavy weight i'd say smith squats, lots on here will say dont do them but in my gym there is no squat rack so i use the smith sometimes, now dumbell squats are a fine exercise but most people can squat more than they can hold in there hands, plus the large dumbells can get in the way of proper technique!

do both and use other exercises such as deadlifts, lunges etc...

Mikel

Better to do none at all than some with a smith machine, especially heavy ones.
Deadlift instead

Boston

Beyond all the issues with the smith machine restricting movement and forcing bad form, I also think it gives you the false sense of security at heavy weights. If you can't handle the weight on a smith machine then you can't roll it off your back, instead you have to hope you've enough power in your wrists to control the weight. I personally know what I would rather rely on.

Chucky the tree

I am doing deadlifts for back already so something else would be handy. Completely forgot about the front Squat.

Mickk

Hanley wrote: »

Clean it and front squat it.

Clean what?

amazingemmet

Mickk wrote: »

Clean what?

The floor

brianon

Google "dumbbell clean". Stay clear of smith machine. DB all the way.

Brian?

http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/SmithSquat1.html

Although I do hate doing squats on a smith machine, it feels unnatural.

Hanley

Mickk wrote: »

Clean what?

The thing you normally do squats with

rubadub

Hanley wrote: »

Clean it and front squat it.

I started front squats a week or so ago. Only did 43kg for about 20reps, (I can deadlift ~130kg), had DOMs for about 4 days after! Though I had not done leg work in a while.

Some good info about them on the stronglifts site.

http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&q=%22front+squat%22+site%3Astronglifts.com&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f

EileenG

Avoid the smith machine, I put my back out squatting on one, and that was just on my warm-up sets.

You'll look less impressive with free weights, but your body will thank you.

Mickk

Hanley wrote: »

The thing you normally do squats with

Well if the OP has heavy dumbells and a smith machine I would guess he is in a gym without a free bar or rack, so I was wondering if you were talking about cleaning dumbells. Am I right OP you dont have acess to an olympic bar?

edges

Stay away from the smith machine.

Instead you have:
Dunbbell squats, dumbell front squats, step ups, split squats, lunges, bulgarian split squats, single leg squats (with or without weights added), single leg deadlifts.

Are there any free bars? Try zercher squats.

Put your mate on your shoulder and squat.

Imagination is all you need.

Stay off the smith machine, they were invented by health and saftey types to lower the gym's insurance premiums. Oh and they'll more than likely injure you in the long term.



Dave
www.WG-Fit.com

Chucky the tree

Mickk wrote: »

Well if the OP has heavy dumbells and a smith machine I would guess he is in a gym without a free bar or rack, so I was wondering if you were talking about cleaning dumbells. Am I right OP you dont have acess to an olympic bar?

My bad. I have an olmypic bar alright, just no Squat rack.*

Mickk

Chucky the tree wrote: »

My bad. I have an olmypic bar alright, just no Squat rack.*

If you have a smith machine it would be really easy to adopt it to work as a rack aswell. Otherwise cleaning the bar up and front squatting would be the best option I think or you could get a trap bar and do trap bar squats.

cowzerp

EileenG wrote: »

Avoid the smith machine, I put my back out squatting on one, and that was just on my warm-up sets

im not saying im a big an of smith squats, but there just like a leg press really, have there place-the main problem with them is when people use them in the same way as a standard squat, this is when problems occur, the positioning needs to be adjusted to suit the unnatural movement..mainly feet forward!

Mickk

cowzerp wrote: »

im not saying im a big an of smith squats, but there just like a leg press really, have there place-the main problem with them is when people use them in the same way as a standard squat, this is when problems occur, the positioning needs to be adjusted to suit the unnatural movement..mainly feet forward!

The problem with that is it basically makes it a hack squat...

Pugsley

Chucky the tree wrote: »

My bad. I have an olmypic bar alright, just no Squat rack.*

I also have no squat rack, but have been making do by cleaning the bar and doing front squats. Limits the amount I can squat considerably (to what i can clean basically) but its still a great exercise, ended up with a pretty mighty clean too actually.

shabby

briankeating wrote: »

Although I do hate doing squats on a smith machine, it feels unnatural.

+1 cant ever imagine using a machine for any exercise, free weights all the way!!!:cool:

Hanley

Pugsley wrote: »

I also have no squat rack, but have been making do by cleaning the bar and doing front squats. Limits the amount I can squat considerably (to what i can clean basically) but its still a great exercise, ended up with a pretty mighty clean too actually.

My first year training in my college gym I was reduced to doing it too. I remember it used to KILL my wrists, but they got used to it and I still maintain the flexibility to clean grip front squat when most can't.

thebiggestjim

Defo front squats with the dumbell. Feel them quads burn!!!!

Transform

There is more to leg work than just squats in whatever form.

e.g. lunges, split squats, straight leg deadlift, step ups etc

justsomebloke

dumbell thrusters FTW

jfit

Say no to the Smith Machine,

One legged squat "pistol", front squat, deadlift, one legged deadlift, Saddle deadlift "jefferson squat", behind back deadlift, Hack Squat, the list goes on - no need for Smith Machine.

Hanley

You know I'm going against the grain here, if you're looking for pure muscle growth and nothing else, there's really not that much wrong with the smith machine if you use it properly.

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

My first year training in my college gym I was reduced to doing it too. I remember it used to KILL my wrists, but they got used to it and I still maintain the flexibility to clean grip front squat when most can't.

Smith machine kills my wrists doing benchs, I am not sure why but I only do dumbbell bench press now.

Hanley

briankeating wrote: »

Smith machine kills my wrists doing benchs, I am not sure why but I only do dumbbell bench press now.

I would guess it's because your bar path is wrong. To minimise wrist stress you really need to be keeping the bar over your elbow (lift your arm up like you're benching, make sure your wrist is directly over your elbow, that's a strong position. Now bend your wrist back so it's behind your elbow, feel the extra stress already?).

One of the problems with the smith machine is that it's a fixed bar path. When I'm benching the bar tends to move in a slight diagonal or "J" path (moving straight up from my chest and gently back as I get near the top).

If you're going to bench in a smith machine you might want to try setting up with the bar further down your body (or your body further up the bench!!). If you do this and tuck your elbows in towards body a bit more you SHOULD avoid cocking your wrists back too much.

cowzerp

Hanley wrote: »

I would guess it's because your bar path is wrong. To minimise wrist stress you really need to be keeping the bar over your elbow (lift your arm up like you're benching, make sure your wrist is directly over your elbow, that's a strong position. Now bend your wrist back so it's behind your elbow, feel the extra stress already?)..

Agreed..

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

If you're going to bench in a smith machine you might want to try setting up with the bar further down your body (or your body further up the bench!!). If you do this and tuck your elbows in towards body a bit more you SHOULD avoid cocking your wrists back too much.

cheers man, I'll give that a go in about an hour. If my wrists hurt afterwards I'll cursing you though.

Hanley

briankeating wrote: »

cheers man, I'll give that a go in about an hour. If my wrists hurt afterwards I'll cursing you though.

No pressure so.... Grip a little outside shoulder width, keep your elbows in close to your body and bring the bar down towards below your nipples or there abouts. There won't be as much emphasis on the chest, but it'll take it off your wrists!

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

No pressure so.... Grip a little outside shoulder width, keep your elbows in close to your body and bring the bar down towards below your nipples or there abouts. There won't be as much emphasis on the chest, but it'll take it off your wrists!

That worked a treat, cheers man.

It felt like much more of a workout for my triceps than my chest, they were on fire half way through the 3rd set. Good fire though I suppose

Hanley

briankeating wrote: »

That worked a treat, cheers man.

It felt like much more of a workout for my triceps than my chest, they were on fire half way through the 3rd set. Good fire though I suppose

Haha score. It's normal to feel it more on the triceps with that sorta grip. Play around tho. Move you hands out a bit, set up a little higher on the bench, change your elbow position... All these things will have an effect on which muscle gets hit the most.

Generally, the greater your elbow tuck and the lower on your body the bar goes, the more tricep it'll be. Flared elbows and a touch nearer to your neck will be more chest. BUUUUUT an extreme flair at the elbows puts your shoulders in a nasty position.

Throw the bench up on an incline if you want even more chest involvement. Believe it or not, once I get my next comp outta the weight I'm gonna spend 8-10 weeks training like a bodybuilder, hitting machines, the smith and all that jazz!

BossArky

Hanley wrote: »

I'm gonna spend 8-10 weeks training like a bodybuilder, hitting machines, the smith and all that jazz!

Can you elaborate on that? Do bodybuilders use the smith as it has more of an bodybuilding effect rather than pure strength on a free weights bench?

Hanley

BossArky wrote: »

Can you elaborate on that? Do bodybuilders use the smith as it has more of an bodybuilding effect rather than pure strength on a free weights bench?

I'm tossing two ideas around in my head at the moment, either smolov, or doggcrapp. Smolov as you know would be squatting 4x a week with free weights, but I'd probably follow that up with rest-pause work ala Doggcrapp.

The thing about RP work is that lot of it is done to failure or near failure, so unless you've a good training partner available to pull the weight off you, safety needs to be taken into consideration. Hence the smith.... BUUUT when it comes down to it, I don't think my chest is going to care what its pushing against. A free bar, a machine, or a smith like.

Basically with DoggCrapp you train each muscle group 2x every 6 days or so. So chest day one might be an incline smith press, day two might be hammer strength bench press. When you stop progressing on one of these you change exercises, so perhaps close grip smitth bench or dumbbell press maybe.

It's a tried and tested system and one that has got awesome results with people who are crazy enough to do it as described. I suppose the core idea behind it is to push big compound movments and to get stronger on them, regardless of whether they're machines or not. If you get considerably stronger on them then by rights your strength with free weights should rise once you get back used to them again. Plus you'll have a shed load more muscle and improved leverages.

Anyway, that's the prevailing theory. I guess I'll have to report back on how it works now.

EDIT: Obviously this isnt something that I think a beginner should attempt. You need to have a base to work off before any of this stuff is gonna work. I'm quite confident that my form on the major lifts is more than good enough right now so it's not like I'll be foregoing that for the sake of machine training.

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

Haha score. It's normal to feel it more on the triceps with that sorta grip. Play around tho. Move you hands out a bit, set up a little higher on the bench, change your elbow position... All these things will have an effect on which muscle gets hit the most.

Generally, the greater your elbow tuck and the lower on your body the bar goes, the more tricep it'll be. Flared elbows and a touch nearer to your neck will be more chest. BUUUUUT an extreme flair at the elbows puts your shoulders in a nasty position.

Throw the bench up on an incline if you want even more chest involvement. Believe it or not, once I get my next comp outta the weight I'm gonna spend 8-10 weeks training like a bodybuilder, hitting machines, the smith and all that jazz!

Will give that a go so, but of course every answer spawns new questions.

If I was to do 5x5 bench on the smith this way, would it be too much to go and do 5x5 with an incline on, or would i better off doing something like flys to target the chest a little more?

I know one thing for sure though, i won't need to do any tricep pulldowns in future.

rubadub

Hanley wrote: »

My first year training in my college gym I was reduced to doing it too. I remember it used to KILL my wrists, but they got used to it and I still maintain the flexibility to clean grip front squat when most can't.

I was doing front squats and found the grip limiting too, I ended up holding the bar up, but then that was also limiting. I found on a site today about using lifting straps, instead of the straps looping on your wrist, they go on the bar. Now you hold the stray ends and whip the bar up. Now your knuckles are facing your face and the grip is easier.



http://www.straighttothebar.com/2006/10/holding_the_bar_in_the_front_s.html

Chucky the tree

Hanley wrote: »

My first year training in my college gym I was reduced to doing it too. I remember it used to KILL my wrists, but they got used to it and I still maintain the flexibility to clean grip front squat when most can't.

bumpity bump.


So is it normal to have very sore wrist from doing it? I was worried it could of just been down to poor form but I suppose the extra rotation is always going to take it toll on the wrists a bit.

amazingemmet

In an ideal front suat you shouldn't have any stress on the wrists as the bar should be resting on the platform made by your chest and delts