why did god create cancer?

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote: »

and the possessor of a cruel sadistic heart, even if you are restrained by God from acting that out.

Er, what?

God clearly doesn't restrain people from acting out, nor would he according to your own religion because that would be influencing free will.

If could can restrain people from acting out why doesn't he restrain everyone from acting out?

To blame him for his cruel heart and then thank God for not letting him act out goes against the fundamental excuse your religion uses for why there is bad in the world.

Is it any wonder people say this stuff doesn't make sense ....

wolfsbane

Wicknight said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
and the possessor of a cruel sadistic heart, even if you are restrained by God from acting that out.
Er, what?

God clearly doesn't restrain people from acting out, nor would he according to your own religion because that would be influencing free will.

God doesn't give a fig for your free will, and He restrains it every day:
Many are prevented from desiring to do particular evils, as we see in most people's abhorrance of murder, for example.
Others are prevented from acting out their evil desires: the would-be murderer who misses his shot.
Some are executed by God, or by the state acting on His behalf.

If could can restrain people from acting out why doesn't he restrain everyone from acting out?

Because He has chosen not to. Instead, He saves some sinners from their sin and lets the others display their wickedness until His judgement falls.

To blame him for his cruel heart and then thank God for not letting him act out goes against the fundamental excuse your religion uses for why there is bad in the world.

God allowed man (and the devil and his angels) to sin, but He is under no obligation to continue to do so. He intervenes as seems best to Him. He is absolute Sovereign.

Is it any wonder people say this stuff doesn't make sense ....

I sympathise with your confusion - there are many unBiblical theories out there under the name of Christianity. Best thing is to check out for yourself what God says in His word (the Bible).

wolfsbane

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I love these posts, Wolfy. The Old Testament in full flight, only to be tempered with a dab of New Testament sentimentality.

Thanks for the appreciation, but you will find them solely New Testament in character. It's just your impression of the NT that is skewed (not blaming you, but those who misinformed you).

Try reading Romans, for example.

Flamed Diving

wolfsbane wrote: »

Thanks for the appreciation, but you will find them solely New Testament in character. It's just your impression of the NT that is skewed (not blaming you, but those who misinformed you).

Try reading Romans, for example.

Ok, I must be misinformed then. Perhaps I should have an ol read off the bible someday. It must be quite a read!

anti-venom

Why did God create anything bad? It would appear highly implausible that a benevolent and loving God would create anything that would hurt his creations. This has being furrowing the brows of believers for millennia.

I'n not sure if anyone has mentioned theodicy in the threads here. Theodicy is the means of reconciling the apparent goodness of God with the observable evil that clearly exists in the world. In order to exonerate God from any culpability for this evil a being had to be devised in order to take the flack for this evil. This is why characters like Satan were created. All the blame for the ills of the world could be placed squarely at his feet and God was off the hook, so to speak.

However, this would seem to fly in face in what the Christians believe about God. Are we now to believe that God, in his omnipotence, is incapable of dealing with a lesser being such as Satan? If God is the maser of all creation then is he not accountable for the creation of Satan and Satan's subsequent actions? How does theodicy explain away the presence of evil which surely existed long before Satan fell from grace? There are just too many questions which are not satisfactorily explained by the logical gymnastics of theodicy.

I would suggest that humans are the only creatures capable of evil acts. Evil is not a force from outside of us. It is not an overwhelming supernatural force which 'infects' us and compels us to commit unspeakable acts. No, evil is created solely by human minds. We cannot describe natural catastrophies such as pestilence and drought as 'evil' because there is no conscious mind behind it.

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote: »

Wicknight said:

God doesn't give a fig for your free will, and He restrains it every day:
Many are prevented from desiring to do particular evils, as we see in most people's abhorrance of murder, for example.
Others are prevented from acting out their evil desires: the would-be murderer who misses his shot.
Some are executed by God, or by the state acting on His behalf.


Because He has chosen not to. Instead, He saves some sinners from their sin and lets the others display their wickedness until His judgement falls.

Ok, aside from the fact that you are contradicting pretty much every other Christian on this forum who has ever discussed free will, how do you resolve the rather "interesting" idea of God and free will with the idea of God having to allow evil if he allows free will

If God is prefectly happy to curtail free will why then did he give Adam free will to sin, thus condemning all of humanity to a sinful nature

When non-Christians come on to this forum saying that God must be resonsible for the evil in the world the standard Christian response is that God didn't create evil, he allowed humans the free will to be evil because it is better for humans to have free will than to not, even if some use it for evil

You are now saying that God doesn't give a fig about us having free will. So what possible reason, in your mind, did God allow evil to be in the world?

wolfsbane wrote: »

I sympathise with your confusion - there are many unBiblical theories out there under the name of Christianity. Best thing is to check out for yourself what God says in His word (the Bible).

I would be interested in the bible passage saying God doesn't give a fig about human free will, and the response of the other Christians on this forum over your rather unique interpretation of free will and why God allows humans to sin (you seem to be saying so he can kick their buts when they do ... does he enjoy that?)

wolfsbane

Wicknight said:

Ok, aside from the fact that you are contradicting pretty much every other Christian on this forum who has ever discussed free will, how do you resolve the rather "interesting" idea of God and free will with the idea of God having to allow evil if he allows free will

Many Christians do not hold to my view on free will, but many do. It is in fact the classic Reformed position.

It is important however to define what we mean by free will. In the matter of moral choices, we are all free to choose according to our desires, to choose whatever our natures prefer. We are not forced to choose good or evil against our will, but do so according to our will.

If left to ourselves, every man would always choose to reject God and go his own way. For a man to choose otherwise, it requires God to give him a new nature, a new heart. He then chooses according to the desires of his new nature.

As to God having to allow evil if He allows free will (in the moral sphere), I agree. Adam & Eve's will was absolutely free, unlike ours. They could have chosen to obey God or not, and that being so evil was an outcome God had to allow. He could of course have ended it all when they made the big mistake, but chose not to. Which brings us to your next point:

If God is prefectly happy to curtail free will why then did he give Adam free will to sin, thus condemning all of humanity to a sinful nature

When non-Christians come on to this forum saying that God must be resonsible for the evil in the world the standard Christian response is that God didn't create evil, he allowed humans the free will to be evil because it is better for humans to have free will than to not, even if some use it for evil

You are now saying that God doesn't give a fig about us having free will. So what possible reason, in your mind, did God allow evil to be in the world?

Why did He allow free will, knowing this would be the outcome? He doesn't say. He is sovereign and infinitely wise, so I trust His judgement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
I sympathise with your confusion - there are many unBiblical theories out there under the name of Christianity. Best thing is to check out for yourself what God says in His word (the Bible).
I would be interested in the bible passage saying God doesn't give a fig about human free will,

There are several, but this is a classic:
Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

and the response of the other Christians on this forum over your rather unique interpretation of free will and why God allows humans to sin

As I said, my view is not unique, and several of the brethren here have addressed the issue before.

you seem to be saying so he can kick their buts when they do ... does he enjoy that?)

He would rather they didn't, but has permitted them to do so. But in His gracious will, He has determined that some of them would be rescued from their sin and its consequences. To accomplish that He sent his Son to atone for their sins, and His Holy Spirit to convert them, giving them a new heart so that they would repent and believe in Him.
Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

MrPudding

wolfsbane wrote: »

As to God having to allow evil if He allows free will (in the moral sphere), I agree. Adam & Eve's will was absolutely free, unlike ours. They could have chosen to obey God or not, and that being so evil was an outcome God had to allow. He could of course have ended it all when they made the big mistake, but chose not to. Which brings us to your next point:

Hold on there a minute. "He could of course have ended it all when they made the big mistake, but chose not to" I thought he was all powerful and all know and existed outside of time? Are you saying that once Adam went against him god went "Oh. Bugger. I didn't see that coming!" I always understood that he knew everything that was ever going to happen. So it is not a case of us asking why he did not change things after he saw them go wrong, but asking why he created an imperfect creature, when he knew before he did it that it would go bad and he would have to spend the next few thousand years smitting bad people?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Why did He allow free will, knowing this would be the outcome? He doesn't say. He is sovereign and infinitely wise, so I trust His judgement.

A bit of a cop out, no? Are you not is the least bit curious as to why he might do such an illogical thing?

wolfsbane wrote: »

As I said, my view is not unique, and several of the brethren here have addressed the issue before.

Several have attempted to address it but I have never seen an decent answer.

wolfsbane wrote: »

He would rather they didn't, but has permitted them to do so. But in His gracious will, He has determined that some of them would be rescued from their sin and its consequences. To accomplish that He sent his Son to atone for their sins, and His Holy Spirit to convert them, giving them a new heart so that they would repent and believe in Him.

But why? Why did he have to? What is the point?

MrP

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote: »

It is important however to define what we mean by free will. In the matter of moral choices, we are all free to choose according to our desires, to choose whatever our natures prefer. We are not forced to choose good or evil against our will, but do so according to our will.

If left to ourselves, every man would always choose to reject God and go his own way. For a man to choose otherwise, it requires God to give him a new nature, a new heart. He then chooses according to the desires of his new nature.

If that is true it makes even less sense than before that God would punish people for "rejecting God and go his own way"

What, is God going curse me (and everyone else) when he cursed Adam, then decide not to save me and then send me to eternal punishment because he decided to curse me and not save me.

That is totally add odds with the idea of a loving God.

Or are you a Christian who doesn't believe in a loving God, but rather a vengeful angry one.

wolfsbane wrote: »

As to God having to allow evil if He allows free will (in the moral sphere), I agree. Adam & Eve's will was absolutely free, unlike ours. They could have chosen to obey God or not, and that being so evil was an outcome God had to allow. He could of course have ended it all when they made the big mistake, but chose not to.

"Ending it" was not his only option. For a start he could have let everyone else have the same absolute free will as Adam did rather than cursing everyone to a life of sin.

Instead, according to you, he cursed everyone to be condemned to sin without him, then allowed some to sin and others not to, and punished for eternity those who he himself decide to not stop from sinning.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Why did He allow free will, knowing this would be the outcome? He doesn't say. He is sovereign and infinitely wise, so I trust His judgement.

Well more fool you.

Given that you are incapable of knowing if he is in fact infinitely wise, it is a very illogical position to hold given the contradiction of that position and what you have described above.

wolfsbane wrote: »

As I said, my view is not unique, and several of the brethren here have addressed the issue before.

None that I have come across. I would be interested in seeing who shares your view of God.

wolfsbane wrote: »

He would rather they didn't, but has permitted them to do so.

All evidence points to the contrary. He isn't permitting them to do so, he is creating their nature so that they will. You admit you don't know why he has done that, but equally you don't know if it was for a good reason or simply because that is how he gets his kicks.

It seems highly contradictory that a loving God would set things up in such a ridiculous fashion, to force people to sin by corrupting their nature and then punish them when they do.

Your blind faith that there is a as yet unknown reason that explains that contradiction away is largely meaningless as an explanation. You have no grounds to support that faith, and when faced with the evidence right in front of us the inescapable conclusion is that God simply enjoys making people suffer.

Flamed Diving

Is angry love not love all the same?