Irish right wing party?

judas101

I'm a first time poster on this forum but am a long time lurker.

I was just wondering about people opinions on the possible emergence of a proper right wing party in ireland (i wouldnt rate the PD's)

a lot of people have major problems with the immigration system in ireland and the detrimental affects its having.

there are, undeniably, problems associated with immigration here and many feel the ireland is going the same way as france and england where there is much hostility and segregation. i myself have had negative experiences with illegal immigrants which are making me increasingly lean right.

my question is this, do you think a right wing party will emerge in ireland eventually and would you support them?

judas101

judas101 wrote: »

i myself have had negative experiences with illegal immigrants which are making me increasingly lean right.

You sure its not just one leg shorter than the other?

judas101 wrote: »

do you think a right wing party will emerge in ireland

Probably some mickey mouse thing.

judas101 wrote: »

would you support them?

Not me anyway.

bobbyjoe

What do you mean by right wing?
Not being smart there are lots of opinions about what it means.

judas101

well it means a party that upholds liberties of a civil society and the preservention of the domestic culture, usually in the face of external forces for change.

pinched that off wiki but it summed it up well i though:pac:

sink

Sounds more like conservatism than just plain old right wing. Right wing can mean low taxes small government and more libertarian policies. I could see a conservative movement gain momentum over the next few decades as people forget the bad old days and replace it with a feeling of nostalgia, but I don't see it being of a significant size maybe as large as the greens.

menoscemo

Do you mean a right-wing party a la the conservatives in UK? If so I guess we already have two or three of these.
Or do you mean a more extreme right-wing party like BNP or like the french FN (national front)?

Or are you really asking if FF/FG will take on anti-immigration policies? That is most likely because IMO they are both very populist.

Caoimhín

Ireland is indeed somewhat lob-sided towards the left. Personally i think both the left and the right opinion on any political discussion has some merit. The danger here is you need to be a bit clearer in your definition of a right wing party or you will raise the hackles of both extreme polarities.

menoscemo

caoibhin wrote: »

Ireland is indeed somewhat lob-sided towards the left. Personally i think both the left and the right opinion on any political discussion has some merit. The danger here is you need to be a bit clearer in your definition of a right wing party or you will raise the hackles of both extreme polarities.

Disagree. I believe Ireland is and has been governed by centre/right parties since it's inception.

redarmyblues

I think the real question is will a left wing party ever emerge in Ireland.

But Judas if you want to indulge your goosestepping tendencies, you should start up your own national movement....

Keep Ireland safe for Starbucks, McDonalds and MTV. No foreign muck here please, but you may have to flip your own Burgers since all the foreigners will be gone home.

sink

FF/FG are centre right. Labour is the only centre left with decent support. SF/SP would be far left. PD would be right of FF/FG but would not be far right.

Moriarty

The Immigration Control Platform has been in existence for a couple of years. That you apparently haven't heard of it (and I wouldn't blame you, they've never been elected for anything they've run for afaik) speaks volumes for the appetite for such a political party in Ireland at the moment.

Right wing can mean pro-immigration too, don't forget.

menoscemo

sink wrote: »

FF/FG are centre right. Labour is the only centre left with decent support. SF/SP would be far left. PD would be right of FF/FG but would not be far right.

Agreed except the greens are like labour pretty centre left and SF are definately moving more central, especially economically and becoming left-centre left.

We are a really conservative country and cannot see a popular far-right party emerging that is not just a bunch of loony racists.

judas101

Apologies for the vague description but yes i meant a party such as the french national front.

as mentionied above, ireland has always been ran from left of center and in my opinion is crying out for a right wing party such as the national front.

what's with the mud slinging 'red army'? judging from your username i can see that maybe youre not a fan of right wing politics but that was an ignorant comment to make.
Just so you know, there's a world of difference between a 'forgiener' and an illegal immigrant.

is_that_so

We are a conservative folk at heart and like things to stay the same, hence the basic centrist leanings of all of our major parties. In a lot of ways they reflect our own sense of where we think we should be- somewhere in the middle. Apart from the odd lurch to the left as long as it doesn't hurt us that much in things anti-war,green issues,local hospital services and more commonly to the right - ala Joe Duffy, Herald,Sindo, anti-immigration, anti-scumbag etc , collectively we prefer to hover around the middle.

So a real right wing or even left wing party is going to be stuck with a very small base and is probably reduced to skulking on the fringes.

sink

I am very anti BNP/National Front style far-right parties. They don't add any benefit to society and they just stir up trouble and cause tension between communities. There is no need for it, we're all living just doing the best we can who cares were you were born or what your race/religion is. It should not be a factor in social status or rights. I'm for sensible immigration control not too far from what we have now.

redarmyblues

Judas, how were you able to indentify the exact status of the illegal immigrants who provided you with your negative experiences, was it by the colour of their skin? ,and if not how exactly.

gordon_gekko

this country is crying out for a party that is willing to implement some badly needed thatcherite policys to deal with the stone around our neck that is the public service , fianna fail are too populist to make enemys in the unions , fine gael are hobbled by having to stay friends with labour in any potential future goverment to tackle public service inneficency and as for the rest , well the less said the better

this will not happen of course as elections in this country are utterly predictable , the vast vast majority of people vote for whoever there parents , grandparents and great grand parents voted for
that and the fact that for the most part , we are not at all an idealogical people , were fence sitters who dont like to be radical , be it either to the left or right and we perfer grumble about things than really make hard descisions , its no wonder bertie aherne was so popular here , he didnt like to make hard descisions and just wanted to be seen as a nice fella

menoscemo

judas101 wrote: »

as mentionied above, ireland has always been ran from left of center and in my opinion is crying out for a right wing party such as the national front.

your statement and indeed thinking are fundamentally wrong because FF and FG are centre right parties (willing to shift left in certain coalitions maybe, but never past centre)

Edit, and would you support this party?

judas101

ermm.... i hate to burst your bubble but fianna fail is a centre left party.

menoscemo

judas101 wrote: »

ermm.... i hate to burst your bubble but fianna fail is a centre left party.

Hmmmm, you are wrong. Started as a left-wing party in the 1920's and quickly beacame a centre/centre-right party.
It's ideologiy in terms comaprisons to other european countries can be seen in it's Alliance in the European parliament is with a group called the 'union for the Europe of nations' a conservative nationalist grouping
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_for_Europe_of_the_Nations

It's economic policies of low taxation/ market economy/ poor investment in public sevices are a clear identifier of it as a classic European conservative party.

sink

judas101 wrote: »

ermm.... i hate to burst your bubble but fianna fail is a centre left party.

No they broadly follow the liberal conservatism ideology with more populist stances when required. But if they didn't have to appeal to a broad electorate I'm pretty sure they would ditch the populism.

humberklog

menoscemo wrote: »

Hmmmm, you are wrong. Started as a left-wing party in the 1920's and quickly beacame a centre/centre-right party.
It's ideologiy in terms comaprisons to other european countries can be seen in it's Alliance in the European parliament is with a group called the 'union for the Europe of nations' a conservative nationalist grouping
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_for_Europe_of_the_Nations

It's economic policies of low taxation/ market economy/ poor investment in public sevices are a clear identifier of it as a classic European conservative party.

What about Bertie saying he was one of only two socialists in the Dail? Please don't burst my bubble!

Seriously though there is a big problem with parties that go FAR either way, left or right. People simply don't vote for it and haven't in a lot of years. It such a party developed in any serious form (v.unlikely) it'd probably be more of a street threatening loony fringe than a vote getting machine. Simply put...such rantings are very unsexy in these days Metropolitico. (I'll have that one!)

sink

Bertie a socialist, hah! He certainly bows to union pressure too often but he privatised many industries during his tenure. He's just playing to people who call themselves socialist but don't really follow traditional socialism.

menoscemo

I am a socialist too! Now privatise those hospitals and allow me to pay for them please.

segaBOY

Moriarty wrote: »

The Immigration Control Platform has been in existence for a couple of years. That you apparently haven't heard of it (and I wouldn't blame you, they've never been elected for anything they've run for afaik) speaks volumes for the appetite for such a political party in Ireland at the moment.

Right wing can mean pro-immigration too, don't forget.

They are getting more popular, Ted Neville doubled his vote to 804 first pref in the last election afaik

Still though, a party with nothing else on it's mind but immigration control seems a bit dangerous in my view

mikemac

I'm confused. If right-wing is big business, then they generally love immigration.
People willing to work for low wages and often afraid to speak up.
Look at America, it'll be the Republicans who do more for illegal immigrants than the Democrats.

I attended a Labour Ard Fheis and heard Prionas De Rossa claim at most a few thousand Eastern Europeans would arrive here.

If an experienced politican in Ireland and Europe hasn't a clue then I don't know who to put my trust in

LostinBlanch

FF, FG are catch all parties, in other words they're both centrist parties that will adjust policies to meet what they think the electorate wants. So they will swing left and right within certain parameters but will still remain centrist. So this is how Bertie could claim to be socialist while encouraging Harney to privatise the health service.

As both sink and moriarty have pointed out, there isn't the demand for an NF/ BNP style parties here. Eoin O'Duffy's blueshirts in the 30's were the closest we came but they faded away (thankfully). I don't agree with the Immigration Control Platform but accept that they may have a point (even, or especially, if I don't agree with them). We don't have to make the same mistakes that other countries made, but having gone through such huge social change in the last 20 years it's understandable how some people are uncomfortable with this change.

KERPAL

OP, we must have some sort of connection, i was just about to start thread about this very topic.

Personally, i think its a shame that FF have become an on the fence party, doing all in power to please the population. The PDs have become a farce, and tbh its a real pity MacDowell messed up in the general election, because he was the only shining light on the right(nice ring to that:D).

I will put my beliefs aside, but in any case, a proper right wing party, not too extreme mind you, is a must in order to obtain a healthy political equilibrium in this country.

We are becoming far too used to hearing the views from leftist parties, its not healthy.

There seems to be equal numbers of people complaining about the major parties being too left wing or right wing. I guess that means they're in the centre.

gordon_gekko

judas101 wrote: »

ermm.... i hate to burst your bubble but fianna fail is a centre left party.

both fianna fail politicians and even a good few number of fianna fail voters like to think of themselves as being left of centre but there nothing of the sort in reality

besides , fianna fail are a populist party , there only idealogy is power , there lack of idealogy is what has made them the most popular part over the yrs , as i said earlier , we are a deeply unidealogical people , the one really idealogical politican we had in this country in the last number of yrs ( michael mc dowell) was despised by most people , simply because he wasnt enough of a people pleaser
i dont count joe higgins because no one takes him seriously

redarmyblues

judas101 wrote: »

Apologies for the vague description but yes i meant a party such as the french national front.

as mentionied above, ireland has always been ran from left of center and in my opinion is crying out for a right wing party such as the national front.

what's with the mud slinging 'red army'? judging from your username i can see that maybe youre not a fan of right wing politics but that was an ignorant comment to make.
.[/quote

Judas you are pretty sensitve for a Nazi sympathiser, it was that kind of sniveiling spirit cost ye the reich, and Nazi sympathiser you are since you advocate the establishment of a racist holocaust denying party like the French National front here.

KERPAL

redarmyblues wrote: »

Judas you are pretty sensitve for a Nazi sympathiser, it was that kind of sniveiling spirit cost ye the reich, and Nazi sympathiser you are since you advocate the establishment of a racist holocaust denying party like the French National front here.

Its you kind of lunatics that berate people for sympathising with Nazis, but at the same time sympathise with Stalins reign of terror, Mao Tse tsungs forced industrial growth, North Koreas current dictatorship as well as Burmas current rulers. The disaster that has been socialism/communism has resulted in hundreds of millions more deaths than any far right rule has ever caused.

sink

To be fair if Hiltler won I'm sure the death toll would be a lot higher. But as far as I am concerned all extreme parties can go **** off, the decent people of Ireland don't want you and your bull****.

KERPAL

sink wrote: »

To be fair if Hiltler won I'm sure the death toll would be a lot higher. But as far as I am concerned all extreme parties can go **** off, the decent people of Ireland don't want you and your bull****.

The very fact that you feel the need to resort to cursing suggest to me that your the kind of person that when the crap hits the fan, you would be the first to go crawling in search of an extreme party.

Look im not defending Hitler here, and im not in particular favor of an extremist party, i was just responding to the chap who generalised right wingers as nazi sympathisers so i generalised him as stalin et al sympathiser.
A neo-con style party is what need imho.

And btw mate, Hitler would not have come near to killing the amount of people the communist rulers did had he not been defeated, just would not have happened.

judas101

sink wrote: »

But as far as I am concerned all extreme parties can go **** off, the decent people of Ireland don't want you and your bull****.

I'd probably agree with you.

Too far either side is no good but a better balance is the ideal.
Anyone who whole heartedly supports the philosophy of either side and rejects the other is crazy imo. I wasnt advocating the formation of a extremist party just gauging the opinions of whether ireland will ever have one.

So red army, you can stop with the highly insulting remarks. there's been a lot of insightful contributions made to this thread so far and yours are not one of them. if you could stop making preconceptions about me that'd be great.

sink

Well it's well documented that the National Front are holocaust deniers and nazi symphatisers and he mentioned them. BNP are not in the same category but they're still racist assholes. Wether Hitler would've killed as many as Stalin if he had won, is pure speculation and no-one can say categorically one way or the other. I can assure you as a Agnostic secular humanist who strongly believes parliamentary democracy and social capitalism, I would never support a far left or right movement unless I had a mental breakdown.

KERPAL

sink wrote: »

Well it's well documented that the National Front are holocaust deniers and nazi symphatisers and he mentioned them. BNP are not in the same category but they're still racist assholes.
Wether Hitler would've killed as many as Stalin if he had won, is pure speculation and no-one can say categorically one way or the other. I can assure you as a Agnostic secular humanist who strongly believes parliamentary democracy and social capitalism, I would never support a far left or right movement unless I had a mental breakdown.

First up, The National Fronts leader Le Pen has been accuse of holocaust denial, but this is a very convenient ploy for her political opponents.
Yes BNP are racist idiots imo, no grasp on politics or how to win the minds of people.

Secondly, in fairness you speculated first concerning Hitler would have killed more bla bla bla.

Thirdly, I cannot say I concur with you political viewpoint, its good to see an educated answer without the cursing.:)

nij

Far right parties are NEVER what a country needs. The only reason they come to power is that economic slowdown or even depression leads to anger, and anger breeds hatred, and that hatred is almost always directed toward "the foreigners". It's human nature to blame other "tribes" for problems, we are hard-wired to do so, and the lying, hate-spreading, fear-mongering leaders of right wing parties know that.

KERPAL

nij wrote: »

Far right parties are NEVER what a country needs. The only reason they come to power is that economic slowdown or even depression leads to anger, and anger breeds hatred, and that hatred is almost always directed toward "the foreigners". It's human nature to blame other "tribes" for problems, we are hard-wired to do so, and the lying, hate-spreading, fear-mongering leaders of right wing parties know that.

Alrite nij, i agree with you that when the crap hits the fan, people tend to go for the extreme parties, but you cannot say that they crawl to the right side solely.
Sinn Fein were at the height of their powers when the crap was hitting the fan, look at them now, they are a political farce, with aboslutely nothing to play on, now that we are prospering.
When people were desperate in Russia, They turned to Lenin the leftist, in China in 1949 they turned to Mao and so on.

Hitler and Stalin despised eachother so much because both knew that they were feeding off the same type of desperate civilian, and if Fascism became a success, then Stalins civilians would turn to facism and visa versa.

You cannot say that it is only Far right parties feeding off the desperate people, because in history, the Far left have done exactly the same, and probably have exploited these people to a bigger extent( USSR and all that only breaking up 2 decades ago).

is_that_so

nij wrote: »

Far right parties are NEVER what a country needs. The only reason they come to power is that economic slowdown or even depression leads to anger, and anger breeds hatred, and that hatred is almost always directed toward "the foreigners". It's human nature to blame other "tribes" for problems, we are hard-wired to do so, and the lying, hate-spreading, fear-mongering leaders of right wing parties know that.

The trouble with extreme parties in this country is that they are really no different to the likes of Finian McGrath, that Monaghan chap for hospitals or any other single issue candidate. Once their issues have been supplanted by another single issue they tend to disappear. If it's an issue we don't much care about in the first place then they are ignored.

That said less than 1000 votes can make you a councillor.

redarmyblues

KERPAL wrote: »

First up, The National Fronts leader Le Pen has been accuse of holocaust denial, but this is a very convenient ploy for her political opponents.
Yes BNP are racist idiots imo, no grasp on politics or how to win the minds of people.

Secondly, in fairness you speculated first concerning Hitler would have killed more bla bla bla.

Thirdly, I cannot say I concur with you political viewpoint, its good to see an educated answer without the cursing.:)

Firstly Kerpal Jean Marie Le Pen is an actual man. Jean is French for John he is not a Jean as in blue jeans.

He has not been merely accused of holocaust denial by his political opponenents he has been convicted of it by the courts.

Your friend Judas has not denied being a Nazi sympathizer. I think the two of you are in this together. I guess that you have the jackboots polished and uniforms designed; you are only waiting for recruits to the half baked goose stepping-neo con-racist-bigoted national movement you plan. Then you will fall out of a pub in Temple Bar and head straight for the Dail (hire a taxi you will all fit in) over the railings and Judas will assume his rightful place as fuehrer, only to be ousted, Judas will then in his cell in Mountjoy write a seminal work that will call the Gael to the swastika.

If this is not true please give us a coherent yet concise account of your political philosophy leaving out convenient but vague labels, and including, monetary policy, Economic policy the rights of the individual, Crime, Race, Foreign policy etc and brief assessment of the problems facing Ireland and how to deal them.

duggie-89

KERPAL wrote: »

Personally, i think its a shame that FF have become an on the fence party, doing all in power to please the population. The PDs have become a farce, and tbh its a real pity MacDowell messed up in the general election, because he was the only shining light on the right(nice ring to that:D).

I will put my beliefs aside, but in any case, a proper right wing party, not too extreme mind you, is a must in order to obtain a healthy political equilibrium in this country.

We are becoming far too used to hearing the views from leftist parties, its not healthy.

i disagree, we may be hearing left wing views but the actions we are seeing are more right in practice.

in one respect i would not mind seeing an openly right wing party on the stage instead of the wolf's in sheep skins of the likes of FF and FG, the PD's are a spent force and the best election result was McDowell going!

i have no time for that man.

i think one of the key questions that may need to be asked is will the end of populaism come soon and if so what will take its place?? and maybe what will have to occur for this to happen? i serious credit crunch?? an economic depression??

duggie-89

KERPAL wrote: »

Alrite nij, i agree with you that when the crap hits the fan, people tend to go for the extreme parties, but you cannot say that they crawl to the right side solely.
Sinn Fein were at the height of their powers when the crap was hitting the fan, look at them now, they are a political farce, with aboslutely nothing to play on, now that we are prospering.
When people were desperate in Russia, They turned to Lenin the leftist, in China in 1949 they turned to Mao and so on.

Hitler and Stalin despised eachother so much because both knew that they were feeding off the same type of desperate civilian, and if Fascism became a success, then Stalins civilians would turn to facism and visa versa.

You cannot say that it is only Far right parties feeding off the desperate people, because in history, the Far left have done exactly the same, and probably have exploited these people to a bigger extent( USSR and all that only breaking up 2 decades ago).

i think you would find that the **** hitting the fan which u talked about was started by right wing groups within both countries, the tsar in russia and his absolutism and the corrupt centre right KPT (i think thats what there name was) in china.

and i dont see how being in power in the north is a farce and the obvious threat that FF see SF as being, hence why they organised in the north.

kove

Isn't one of the few positive things that can be said about mainstream politics in Ireland that there is not such an obsession with trying to simplify everything into "right" and "left" as there is in some other countries? I think that's a credit to the Irish electorate.

Personally I tend to agree with the view that conservative ideals have been over-represented since the foundation of the state though.

Belfast

judas101 wrote: »

I'm a first time poster on this forum but am a long time lurker.

I was just wondering about people opinions on the possible emergence of a proper right wing party in ireland (i wouldnt rate the PD's)

a lot of people have major problems with the immigration system in ireland and the detrimental affects its having.

there are, undeniably, problems associated with immigration here and many feel the ireland is going the same way as france and england where there is much hostility and segregation. i myself have had negative experiences with illegal immigrants which are making me increasingly lean right.

my question is this, do you think a right wing party will emerge in ireland eventually and would you support them?

I agree with you about the PDs.

Sounds more like a party biased on Xenophobia rather than right wing.

If immigration in to Ireland is a problem does that mean that Irish emigration to other countries is also a problem.

if so are you in favour of all the Irish in the diaspora world wide being forced to return to Ireland and banning Irish for leaving to live in other countries.

Anti-immigrant policies are not only found in right wing parties. They can also be found in left wing parties.

What other policies does this party have to make it right wing.
What type of economic policies ?
What are your party policy on global warming ?
What is your policy on world free trade etc




What problems you had with immigrants here ?

good book on the subject
Immigrants: Your Country Needs Them (Paperback)
by Philippe Legrain (Author)

Overdraft

judas101 wrote: »

i myself have had negative experiences with illegal immigrants which are making me increasingly lean right.

Deleted User wrote: »

You sure its not just one leg shorter than the other?

Pure gold Conor, pure gold!

manic56

Do you think Ireland could benefit from a right wing no nonsense political party to stamp out the politically correct liberal trends that are helping ruin society?

Karoma

You're inviting a discussion on this? You liberal! To the camps with you!

Agent Smith

in other news.
Grass in believed to be green.

manic56

Karoma wrote: »

You're inviting a discussion on this? You liberal! To the camps with you!

Typical knee jerk liberal reaction.



Just because I my views lean to the right doesn’t mean I condone the atrocities committed in world war 2.


If you have nothing constructive to add to this thread then please ignore it.

marco_polo

What exactly would you like stamped out?