Fundamental query on heaven

seamus

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm genuinely interested in how Christianity (or indeed any religion with a heaven/hell concept) resolves what seems to me, to be a fundamental flaw/contradiction in their version of the afterlife.

Let's say you have Margaret. Devout Catholic, goes to mass every week, gets her body and blood (every day during lent), repents for her sins and generally acts like a good Catholic should.

Her Husband Micheal, isn't. He wasn't even baptised. He enjoys his few pints down the local, every Sunday he goes to the local football matches before arriving home for a quick snooze on the couch. He's a good father, a good husband, but couldn't give a rat's ass about this religion stuff.

Margaret and Micheal are dedicated to eachother. They spend one a night every week on a "date", rarely spend any time apart and are hopelessly in love.

Of course, they inevitably die. Catholics believe of course that Margaret goes to heaven, and Micheal by virtue of not being Catholic, doesn't. But therein lies the contradiction. How can heaven be "heaven" for Margaret, if Micheal isn't there?

That is, if marriage is a binding of souls, a profession of love and dedication in front of God, then surely it is not possible to separate these souls without causing tremendous grief and suffering to both of them?

So, there are two possible conclusions:

1. Margaret, by virtue of association, must go to hell. This means that hell is very full and heaven is very empty. Indeed, heaven only contains those people who have never created a close personal relationship in their lives.

2. Micheal, by virtue of association, must go to heaven. This means that heaven is very full and hell is very empty. Indeed, hell only contains those people who have never created a close personal relationship in their lives and who never followed the Catholic faith.

TravelJunkie

Heaven or hell by association?? you've got to be joking.

Margaret, who would be close to God and have a daily relationship with him because she is a Christian (not because she's Catholic), might actually be praying for Michael, that he gets saved.

The Lord will answer her.

Michael one day could start his own relationship with God and might be even more committed and enthusiastic than her.

Watch this space!

seamus

TravelJunkie wrote: »

Heaven or hell by association?? you've got to be joking.

No, not really. Seems the only two logical outcomes IMO.

Margaret, who would be close to God and have a daily relationship with him because she is a Christian (not because she's Catholic), might actually be praying for Michael, that he gets saved.

So is this a blanket "get out of jail" card, i.e. if a christian prays for someone else to "be saved", then God will answer her?

What if she doesn't pray for him?

bubonicus

seamus wrote: »

So, there are two possible conclusions:

really?

seamus

bubonicus wrote: »

really?

As far as I can see. If I'm wrong, feel free to add more.

kelly1

seamus wrote: »

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm genuinely interested in how Christianity (or indeed any religion with a heaven/hell concept) resolves what seems to me, to be a fundamental flaw/contradiction in their version of the afterlife.

Let's say you have Margaret. Devout Catholic, goes to mass every week, gets her body and blood (every day during lent), repents for her sins and generally acts like a good Catholic should.

Her Husband Micheal, isn't. He wasn't even baptised. He enjoys his few pints down the local, every Sunday he goes to the local football matches before arriving home for a quick snooze on the couch. He's a good father, a good husband, but couldn't give a rat's ass about this religion stuff.

Margaret and Micheal are dedicated to eachother. They spend one a night every week on a "date", rarely spend any time apart and are hopelessly in love.

Of course, they inevitably die. Catholics believe of course that Margaret goes to heaven, and Micheal by virtue of not being Catholic, doesn't. But therein lies the contradiction. How can heaven be "heaven" for Margaret, if Micheal isn't there?

That is, if marriage is a binding of souls, a profession of love and dedication in front of God, then surely it is not possible to separate these souls without causing tremendous grief and suffering to both of them?

So, there are two possible conclusions:

1. Margaret, by virtue of association, must go to hell. This means that hell is very full and heaven is very empty. Indeed, heaven only contains those people who have never created a close personal relationship in their lives.

2. Micheal, by virtue of association, must go to heaven. This means that heaven is very full and hell is very empty. Indeed, hell only contains those people who have never created a close personal relationship in their lives and who never followed the Catholic faith.

Hello Seamus, the answer is in the bible:

Matthew 22:
24 Saying: Master, Moses said: If a man die having no son, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up issue to his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first having married a wife, died; and not having issue, left his wife to his brother.

26 In like manner the second, and the third, and so on to the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 At the resurrection therefore whose wife of the seven shall she be? for they all had her. 29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.

There will be no grief whatsoever. We will be joined with God instead of our spouse. Even if our spouse should end up in Hell, we will fully understand and agree with God's justice and see it as good. It's hard for us to understand this here and now but that's because we don't fully understand what it means to reject God's grace.

seamus

kelly1 wrote: »

Even if our spouse should end up in Hell, we will fully understand and agree with God's justice and see it as good. It's hard for us to understand this here and now but that's because we don't fully understand what it means to reject God's grace.

OK. Seems pretty clear cut. But does that "we will fully understand and agree", not interfere with the idea of free will? Do we not retain the right to question God, even in heaven?

calahans

seamus wrote: »

But therein lies the contradiction. How can heaven be "heaven" for Margaret, if Micheal isn't there?

Heaven is being united with God. It is not heaven in the sense that people use it every day. The bond with man could not be compared to that with God.

TravelJunkie

seamus wrote: »

No, not really. Seems the only two logical outcomes IMO.

Is your (illogical) logic based on the term used in a marriage vow of 'binding of the souls' ?

So is this a blanket "get out of jail" card, i.e. if a christian prays for someone else to "be saved", then God will answer her?

What if she doesn't pray for him?

God answers all prayers. I used to keep a prayer book (including a page with names for salvation) you won't believe how many people came to the Lord and some of which I was really surprised (Christians reading you must do this through your lifetime!) - but its important to know that it was not of my doing (ie. preaching to them)

About the 'get out of jail' card its not saved by default, more like God will work in Michaels life until he comes round. Michael will know if he looks deep into his heart for a consistent niggling and maybe one day he will decide to answer it.

bubonicus

seamus wrote: »

As far as I can see. If I'm wrong, feel free to add more.

You see, I don't have too, plenty of Christians will do that.

kelly1

seamus wrote: »

OK. Seems pretty clear cut. But does that "we will fully understand and agree", not interfere with the idea of free will? Do we not retain the right to question God, even in heaven?

You won't ever see the need to question God because you will be given full understanding of God's ways and see everything He does as good. You will be full of grace. When we die we are confirmed in loving or hating God and there will be far greater clarity, like lifting a veil. We will still have free-will which will already have been proven but this free will will be totally in harmony with God's will and we will see anything contrary to God's will as an abomination.

You're asking this question because of an effect of original sin. Our intellect and will are corrupted and we often pursue our own will instead of God's. Before the fall, Adam posessed the preternatural gifts of sanctifying grace, integrity and infused knowledge. i.e. we don't possess these gifts naturally since then.

philologos

seamus wrote: »

OK. Seems pretty clear cut. But does that "we will fully understand and agree", not interfere with the idea of free will? Do we not retain the right to question God, even in heaven?

Seamus, I read this in a book, but I may as well use it here as it's a reasonably good explanation.

Hell or the absence of God, only exists because people have chosen to be absent from Him. Therefore to actually fully respect their free will, hell has to exist. That's the simple logic behind it.

seamus

Thanks for the responses guys, interesting to see that viewpoint.

bubonicus wrote: »

You see, I don't have too, plenty of Christians will do that.

I don't understand your statement. Are you saying that you "don't have to" see any conclusions (as in, you put your faith in God), or you don't see a need to add any more conclusions?

TravelJunkie

Jakkass wrote: »

Hell or the absence of God, only exists because people have chosen to be absent from Him. Therefore to actually fully respect their free will, hell has to exist. That's the simple logic behind it.

I can't imagine how terrible it must be in the 'abscence of God' . I'm not merely saying this as a Christian, even new age and pagans find God in his creation. It also then explains why hell is also referred to as death (abscence of life)

bubonicus

seamus wrote: »

Thanks for the responses guys, interesting to see that viewpoint.

I don't understand your statement. Are you saying that you "don't have to" see any conclusions (as in, you put your faith in God), or you don't see a need to add any more conclusions?

kk, i'll bite.

You said "I"(as in you) only see two conclusions to a problem statment you put foward from your perspective(belief). I tried to say that, Christians or people who will look at things from a different perspective than you, will see more than two conclusions.

That's the problem with belief.

iUseVi

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I can't imagine how terrible it must be in the 'abscence of God' . I'm not merely saying this as a Christian, even new age and pagans find God in his creation. It also then explains why hell is also referred to as death (abscence of life)

What do you mean by "absence of God"? Is he always present at the moment then? For theists and atheists? Because I don't feel particularly tormented at present, so I suppose by your reasoning God must be present, yes?

JC 2K3

Jakkass wrote: »

Hell or the absence of God, only exists because people have chosen to be absent from Him. Therefore to actually fully respect their free will, hell has to exist. That's the simple logic behind it.

Wait, so if I'm happy on Earth without God, I'll be happy in hell? What about the eternity of torturous punishment?


On the subject of Heaven, from how Christians describe it, it seems a bit like going on a Heroin drip for the rest of eternity. Your friends and family are rendered meaningless, and you are eternally in a state of bliss.

rockbeer

TravelJunkie wrote: »

God answers all prayers.

That assertion is demonstrably false. (I wonder how many christians would agree with it though?)

Why does god never heal amputees, no matter how much they pray?

PDN

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Wait, so if I'm happy on Earth without God, I'll be happy in hell? What about the eternity of torturous punishment?

I guess the company you are with makes a difference. A eternity with Genghis Khan, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pope Urban etc probably wouldn't be a bundle of laughs.

TravelJunkie

rockbeer wrote: »

That assertion is demonstrably false. (I wonder how many christians would agree with it though?)

Why does god never heal amputees, no matter how much they pray?

God doesn't answer YES to everything, but he does answer.

bubonicus

PDN wrote: »

I guess the company you are with makes a difference. A eternity with Genghis Khan, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pope Urban etc probably wouldn't be a bundle of laughs.

An eternity with Hendrix, Hicks, Scott, Burton would be a great laugh....

rockbeer

TravelJunkie wrote: »

God doesn't answer YES to everything, but he does answer.

So why, in his wisdom, does no amputee ever qualify to have a prayer answered in the affirmitive? If we're to believe what we're told, he cures cancer readily enough.

TravelJunkie

rockbeer wrote: »

So why, in his wisdom, does no amputee ever qualify to have a prayer answered in the affirmitive? If we're to believe what we're told, he cures cancer readily enough.

I don't have all the answers you know.

I don't mean to be insensitive but you can't really cure an amputated leg. What the amputee is looking for is a miracle. I do believe in miracles but what greater miracle is there than to be able to be in Gods prescence and the receiver of his Grace? All else is secondary really. Our bodies, our circumstances, etc etc.

philologos

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Wait, so if I'm happy on Earth without God, I'll be happy in hell? What about the eternity of torturous punishment?


On the subject of Heaven, from how Christians describe it, it seems a bit like going on a Heroin drip for the rest of eternity. Your friends and family are rendered meaningless, and you are eternally in a state of bliss.

You aren't without God at all. You just think you are without God in Christian belief. God has been looking for you to come to Him since you were born. While you are on earth you are given the chance to decide where you want to spend eternity.

Pompey Magnus

PDN wrote: »

I guess the company you are with makes a difference. A eternity with Genghis Khan, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pope Urban etc probably wouldn't be a bundle of laughs.

Whilst an eternity with Ian Paisley, George Bush, St Paul, Alistair McGrath and C.S Lewis is going to Party Central?

JC 2K3

Jakkass wrote: »

You aren't without God at all. You just think you are without God in Christian belief. God has been looking for you to come to Him since you were born. While you are on earth you are given the chance to decide where you want to spend eternity.

Ok, but point being. If I'm content in my life, not feeling any attachment to any supernatural being, will Hell be any different?

I mean, what about the eternal burning and torture?

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

I guess the company you are with makes a difference. A eternity with Genghis Khan, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pope Urban etc probably wouldn't be a bundle of laughs.

Er, how do you know they aren't all in heaven?

philologos

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Ok, but point being. If I'm content in my life, not feeling any attachment to any supernatural being, will Hell be any different?

I mean, what about the eternal burning and torture?

Life will be very different, because life on this earth and the way it is, is due to the way that God created it and indeed God's continued presence in the world through the Holy Spirit. Life will not be the same as it is now, as you will be living without him. It would seem to me that life in hell would be absent of creation or form.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

Life will be very different, because life on this earth and the way it is, is due to the way that God created it and indeed God's continued presence in the world through the Holy Spirit. Life will not be the same as it is now, as you will be living without him.

What will it be like? What is God's presence doing at the moment?

JC 2K3

Jakkass wrote: »

Life will be very different, because life on this earth and the way it is, is due to the way that God created it and indeed God's continued presence in the world through the Holy Spirit. Life will not be the same as it is now, as you will be living without him. It would seem to me that life in hell would be absent of creation or form.

Define "creation" and "form" in this context.

Do you just mean we'll rot in the ground?

Again, what about this supposed burning for eternity??

Mena

kelly1 wrote: »

You won't ever see the need to question God because you will be given full understanding of God's ways and see everything He does as good. You will be full of grace. When we die we are confirmed in loving or hating God and there will be far greater clarity, like lifting a veil. We will still have free-will which will already have been proven but this free will will be totally in harmony with God's will and we will see anything contrary to God's will as an abomination.

Ok I'm going to go ahead and say it. To me, this appears to be utterly revolting. You're saying that we essentially become automotons here, that is, putting aside reality and reason and assuming this heaven and hell exist.

You can't say free-will remains and in the same sentence say that you will see everything "he" does as good. That just makes no sense.

To be fair, if these two places were actually to exist I'd pick hell. At least that way I'm not mind-controlled into agreeing with everything some supposed deity does, including the possibility of burning my friends and family alive with me watching and agreeing with this...