Are high prices the primary reason for the pub trade being down?

gurramok

Following on from this thread(http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055303101), do you think that high prices are the primary reason for the lack of trade that the pubs get?

If you think it's primarily the smoking ban, random breadth-testing or some other reason(please state), vote no.

Of course the pubs themselves never say it's high prices so lets see what boardsies say.

c - 13

I think its prices alright. I mean lets say you drink bottles of miller for example, these can be bought in an off license for about E1 per bottle or less. You go to a bar and you'll pay roughly E5 for the same item.

I understand wages, service, lighting, heat etc have to be factored on but still. Thats quite a difference.

I go to the pub occasionally, but i'm staying at home much more often than not this weather with some beers and friends, costs a damn siight less and theres no queuing at bar etc.

BobTheBeat

I would say a variety of things are contributary. Some things that people mightnt have considered previously include:-

: Somewhat 'ageing' population simply moving on from the pub centric social scene.
: Influence of the healthy lifestyle ideals people have (possible irony here). For instance, people believing a night on the beer is no longer an option, so they stay at home a drink two bottles of wine!
: Older and middle aged people genuinely being afraid to go to town at night. I think the younger generation have become somewhat desensitized to the goings on after turfing out time, the kind of things that the older generation do not understand or are appalled at.
: People just being good old fashioned 'tight' with their money. Booze is cheaper in the offy. Cheap booze plus friends at home >> expensive night out in a fairly restricted social scene. By restricted I mean, not many places to go if your only interested in a relaxed night out.

Of course, Im open for criticism on all of the above. I do feel that these are the smaller issues on people's minds, but nonetheless are contributory.

stovelid

I think the smoking ban has brought as many people back to the pubs as have left. I'd definitely go with a mix of high prices and, especially in rural areas, random testing.

stovelid

Was discussing this with my belgian housemate and he tells me that on the continent some pubs charge in the region of €8 for a pint. So with regards to that, it doesn't seem that bad here.

Its just the changing culture. We're moving slowly away from the pub-scene and focusing more on the house parties.

stovelid wrote: »

I think the smoking ban has brought as many people back to the pubs as have left.

I'd definitely go with a mix of high prices and, especially in rural areas, random testing.

I have to agree with the smoking ban. Had they not brought it in, I would have stopped going near a pub years ago. Also, does anyone have any statistics on whether drink-driving fatalities have decreased since random testing was introduced?

Sherifu

Combination of breath testing and prices.

gurramok

Yeh, forgot to mention the obvious like the offy being alot cheaper and drinking at home especially for the younger types.

Its just the publicans are running yet another radio ad campaign and are targetting this aspect but not once have you heard anything about prices.

mikemac

It isn’t high prices and complaining about high prices isn’t new.
I remember moaning when they made cider more expensive than larger about 6 years ago.
10 years ago people were complaining about high prices

I’ll try to get a link but a government minister once said that when the price of a pint passed IR£1, then the government should resign. Might have been Jack Lynch?? There is a classic quote

The Dublin posters will post their outrage at €6 pints but rural pubs charge less than that.
And it’s rural pubs that are closing down, the city centre pubs in main cities are doing ok

I don’t think it’s the smoking ban.
Without a doubt the drink driving crackdown has savaged trade in rural pubs.
And drink in an off-licence has never been cheaper so that's the price factor I suppose

Remember folks, don’t just this of this from a Dublin perspective, it's rural pubs that are suffering more.
But then having villages with 3-4 pubs wasn't going to last forever

reregholdsworth

i'd go with a fair mixture of the above

For me, I am reluctant to spend loads of money at the pub in order to get a hangover so that I can't do anything else with the rest of my weekend.

although the pub is still an important part of my life, every other weekend or so.

must be getting old.

kaimera

testing and prices to an extent.

prices havent stopped me up in DUB

Steve_o

I think the prices play a big part, also the cost of taxis, and to a lesser extent (imo) the smoking ban.

Wibbs

Prices are a big factor I reckon. The growth in off licences added in to that. I do think the smoking ban had an effect. It was quite obvious at first, but now we're so used to it it's subtle. I remember reading the stats on pubs closing down in the aftermath of the smoking ban and it certainly had an effect, both rural and urban. The first run of pub closures happened in the first years after the ban. The dynamic of going out has changed I've noticed. Now people will get a few tinnies in then head out much later. The testing has had an effect in rural areas that's for sure.

nc6000

c - 13 wrote: »

I think its prices alright. I mean lets say you drink bottles of miller for example, these can be bought in an off license for about E1 per bottle or less. You go to a bar and you'll pay roughly E5 for the same item.

I understand wages, service, lighting, heat etc have to be factored on but still. Thats quite a difference.

I go to the pub occasionally, but i'm staying at home much more often than not this weather with some beers and friends, costs a damn siight less and theres no queuing at bar etc.

Apparently many pubs are buying bottles of beer at knockdown prices in off licenses and supermarkets and then selling them on in their pubs at normal price. :mad:

No wonder people are staying at home. When I was out last week I was being charged €4.40 for a Guinness which wasn't as good as a can of draught. I sat there thinking it was waste of money. Much better value to have people around or go to someone elses house.

Maximilian

The driving issue is probably just an issue for people living in rural areas I imagine.

I'd say it is price. There's another thread here complaining about being forced to buy bottled water in some pub for €3.50 or something. Pretty much every pub in Dublin charges over the odds for everything. Is it any wonder people turn their backs on pubs given a reason. That coupled with the smoking ban.

JangoFett

I don't really think the pub culture is dying as has been reported

Portlaoise and Mountrath have some really great pubs and never have problems gettin punters in. The only pubs that DO have problems gettin people is cuz of the rough crowd drinking there or the owners is a dick or the owners doesn't allow anyone but rich solicitors in there....there's a place like that in Portlaoise

S.I.R

the thing with living in dublin is , cheap crappy pints are 2.50-3.50 , a good drinkable pint is 4, then there petrol and diesel which is daylight robbery and theres high un-employment...

Goodbye celtic tiger.... :mad:

The Artist

in my area theres a about 9 or 10 give or take closed down which is sad news as the pubilicans have worked all the years to make ends meet.
As i met a few of the publicans around and asked why the closure.?
1.smoking ban has driven away the customers and lost a lot of buisness/
2. the changes of drink drive limits.
3.to much competion with the off linceces.
4.taxes on the barrels
5.the minimum wage laws.
As well as that their beer gardens are not allowed as im sure they banned that too?
The publicans are sick and tired of the goverment.

Keano

There is nothing more I enjoy than a nice pint down my local but I go out once a month if even that.

To me beer has become a luxury item that I can do without.

kevmy

Well being from a rural area and living in Galway I kinda see both sides of the coin. The type of rural places that are closing down are the kinda places that never done a good trade. They are the ones in the middle of nowhere with catered solely for pensioners, were run by pensioners, with a shed out the back for a jacks. The random testing hit these places hard but so did the fact that the younger generation wouldn't go near them without major renovations, which the elderly proprietor didn't have the energy for so he just closed.

In rural towns not that many pubs have closed and also the pub is still the centre in small rural towns as offies aren't prevalent and it's harder to round up a crew for a house party.

Demographics also play a part the Celtic Tiger coincided with the baby boom kids reaching their late teens/ 20's. Now both are winding down and the baby boomers are settling into houses not pubs.

Rising prices affect closing down of pubs in that years ago you could plod along with a few regulars and just youself behind the bar. With rising prices everywhere you can make more money by selling up/ changing jobs the continuing to run a pub.

ScumLord

I think the problem is a pub isn't a public house anymore. I remember when we where kids we spent loads of time in the pub, they always had arcade machines or a pool table or something for the kiddies to play. Now it's just an uncomfortable building to get drunk in. The only people that can take advantage of a pub these days are drinkers.

Publicans aren't trying to get business in, they're doing nothing new and that's why their failing to bring in customers that can't afford to be drunk anymore. People can't have a pint after work and drive home anymore, so give them some other reason to come in.

gurramok

So from the good replies..

Rural - breadth testing, the young crowd wont goto rundown pubs where owner has not enough of dosh to renovate(same applies to urban), prices not really as issue for rural?

Urban - Prices, Offy is better value and related cost of living to have a night out, noisy pub issue as well where you can't have a conversation and pigheaded bouncers(sorry pighead )

RATM

I reckon the high prices and the smoking ban do have an effect. But another thing to take into consideration is the sheer variety of things to do in the evenings nowadays compared with 15 years ago. Back then it was an option of the pub or cinema for a night out.

Now we have ppl going to their local gym, taking all sorts of night courses, dance classes, etc. We've also had an explosion of restaurants with ethnic cuisine that also compete with pubs for social spending. These things just weren't available back then but now pubs have way more competitors for peoples social time.

KaG1888

KaG1888 wrote: »

I was discussing this the other day while driving down to Shannon. We went through a load of towns between 1-5pm & none of the pubs were open. Back as close as 5 years ago this wouldnt be the case and you'd have people in there from as early as 11 in the morning. It comes down to alot of things I think. The smoking ban, much stricter enforcement on drink driving(rightly so) & as RB pointed out , the rip of publicans themselves! Going from the mid nineties backwards the people you see on the street binging with cans in Dublin & other towns/cities would be mostly in the pub because they could afford it!

Even though the dying of this culture is somehow sad it is for the good of the country in the long run.

Heres a quick symbol that this culture has brought us http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/Kag1888/LOL-1.jpg

As I said in the other thread yes! Ol lads now buy cans of Guinness and bring them back to their house instead of being those lads that were practically part of the furniture in pubs. Much cheaper and they can smoke their pipe in peace !

mikemac

gurramok wrote: »

So from the good replies..

Rural - breadth testing, the young crowd wont goto rundown pubs where owner has not enough of dosh to renovate(same applies to urban), prices not really as issue for rural?

Urban - Prices, Offy is better value and related cost of living to have a night out, noisy pub issue as well where you can't have a conversation and pigheaded bouncers(sorry pighead )

+1
I reckon this sums it up pretty well.
There are different issues affecting rural and urban pubs

danniemcq

i live in letterkenny and used to live across from a pub, dead handy but never went there took the 10 minute walk to Tesco and bought in the off licence there, just couldn't afford drinking in a pub for any length of time.

I know of a few places that will remain nameless as i dunno on the legality of this but they sold cans and bottles from the off licence (which they owned) in the pub which knocked a fair bit off the prices.

Phototoxin

E2.20 - E2.60 for a CAN of coke in a pup. why bother teetotaling ?

danniemcq

liver will thank you the next morning

Radharc na Sleibhte

No, staying in is the new going out.

Degsy

Was in a pub i used to frequent and i noticed a bottle of Larios Gin in the Dublin Dry Gin optic.I know the stuff from being in spain where its about 4.50 a bottle in off-licences.Its also undrinkable muck that you wouldnt use to clean out a cage.I asked the barman was it on special or something and he said "no,this is what we carry".What he meant was they're getting it for a fraction of the cost of decent gin and selling it as the real deal.Pure ****ing greed,no quality concerns whatsoever,as long as they can minimise the overheads and ramp the profits up and up.That particular pub was (is) well-known for flat pints that have been known to make people sick,christ knows where they get the beer fromm if they're willing to sell substandard spirits.

Should report those **** Degsy.

Vinegar Hill

Combination of smoking ban and prices I'd say

Blisterman

I highly doubt people drinking at home is the reason why.

I read somewhere recently, that only about 10% or so of the alcohol sold in Ireland is drunk at home. One of the lowest percentages in the world, I believe.

I think the real problem is the clampdown on drinking and driving. You'll notice it's mainly rural pubs shutting down. There's not too many pubs in Dublin City Centre going out of business.

The solution?
Well we can't exactly legalise drunk driving, but I think publicans should be a bit more enterprising, and provide shuttle buses or something, to drop people home.

Parsley

gurramok wrote: »

If you think it's primarily the smoking ban, random breadth-testing or some other reason(please state), vote no.

"Sorry, your beer gut is too big to drive." :pac:

simonw

Blisterman wrote: »

I highly doubt people drinking at home is the reason why.

I read somewhere recently, that only about 10% or so of the alcohol sold in Ireland is drunk at home. One of the lowest percentages in the world, I believe.

Did it mention we have the highest percentage of alcohol being drunk in fields? :pac:

Blisterman

You've obviusly never been to spain.

nomorebadtown

c - 13 wrote: »

I mean lets say you drink bottles of miller for example, these can be bought in an off license for about E1 per bottle or less. You go to a bar and you'll pay roughly E5 for the same item.

I understand wages, service, lighting, heat etc have to be factored on but still. Thats quite a difference.

I go to the pub occasionally, but i'm staying at home much more often than not this weather with some beers and friends, costs a damn siight less and theres no queuing at bar etc.

This is it. The level of over-pricing in pubs is just so outrageous, how can publicans expect people to pay this much more?

I think a better question would be: Why don't you go to the pub?

My answer is definitly the price of drinks - alcohol and non alcoholic.

snickerpuss

I couldn't be bothered to pay €9 for a jack and coke and then struggle to have a conversation with anyone all night.
Like a nagon of jack daniels is roughly €10 and they're charging nearly €6 a shot. Why would you bother?

Blisterman

Well to be fair, look at the prices of coffee or food you make at home, compared to a coffee shop or restaurant.

It's probably about the same level of markup.

Another major reason for the pub trade to be down, is that there are just too many pubs in Ireland.
Towns of 100 people with three pubs, just isn't going to last.

Doctor DooM

I have drank in Dublin pubs my whole life.

I'm a non smoker so the ban didn't really affect me, it's all good.

I took a girl out recently and it was the last straw. Her vodka and coke came in at 7.50. The shot of vodka cos 5 euro.

I can buy a bottle of vodka in the local offy for 21.

I have decided to save the money and, you know, buy a house instead. Once a month from now on. House parties all the way.

celticwe

Offos cheaper
Smokin ban
4.50 pint heineken:eek:
smell of piss and bo

mikemac

Phototoxin wrote: »

E2.20 - E2.60 for a CAN of coke in a pup. why bother teetotaling ?

A can? Don’t you mean a bottle
I’ve never been in a pub that serves cans, does this go on?

Maximilian

Blisterman wrote: »

Well to be fair, look at the prices of coffee or food you make at home, compared to a coffee shop or restaurant.

It's probably about the same level of markup.

Another major reason for the pub trade to be down, is that there are just too many pubs in Ireland.
Towns of 100 people with three pubs, just isn't going to last.

Sure you're right but just because others engage in this doesn't justify it.

A double espresso is about €2.25 -2.50 in Dublin. It was €1.80 in Starbucks in Veil, Colorado. And thats an expensive ski resort miles from anywhere, where you would expect to get ripped off. Take the exchange rate into account and its even cheaper.

This country is insanely expensive really. The problem is that rampant over-charging is highly contagious in this country. Everyone does it because they see everyone else at it too. They get away with it. There are no repurcussions and people seem to accept it (but moan still). How anyone on McJob wages survives at all is a mystery.

Mossy Monk

The cost is keeping me away.

The Artist

Blisterman wrote: »

You've obviusly never been to spain.

i have.
heinken lager 1 litre €2.85
fags € 3.20
As for drinking at home,yes the fag ban as we used to go the every sunday evining to play cards(45) it was a great craic when we were able to smoke but now they dont turn up no more as its stupid to stop during games and go out for a smoke.
Scores forgoten,pints nicked or cleared of the table as bartender thinks we have gone.
So we drink and smoke at our neighbours and play cards trouble free.
imo there is more at home rather than the pubs as the atomosphere is gone.
Bring back the ould times and the govermnent leave us alone as we are old enough to decide to what we want! Hence "The nanny state!"

nomorebadtown

celticwe wrote: »

4.50 pint heineken

lol, you'd be lucky. was recently in a dublin city centre bar and was told my pint was €6.10. i put it down on the bar and left.

The Artist

someone is too pissed to decide?

kevmy

Maximilian wrote: »

This country is insanely expensive really. The problem is that rampant over-charging is highly contagious in this country. Everyone does it because they see everyone else at it too. They get away with it. There are no repurcussions and people seem to accept it (but moan still). How anyone on McJob wages survives at all is a mystery.

Don't confuse this country with Dublin. It really gets my goat when people do this. The majority of people do not live in Dublin and the majority of pub closures are not in Dublin.

Most of the places which have closed were probably places where you'd get Guinness for €3.40 and lager for €4. It's not in my opinion the high prices which are driving pubs out of business in the main.

Maximilian

kevmy wrote: »

Don't confuse this country with Dublin. It really gets my goat when people do this. The majority of people do not live in Dublin and the majority of pub closures are not in Dublin.

Most of the places which have closed were probably places where you'd get Guinness for €3.40 and lager for €4. It's not in my opinion the high prices which are driving pubs out of business in the main.

Different reasons for the drop-off in Dublin and in rural areas. I think I said that earlier.

You have a goat?

Mackman

IMO its definatly the prices. It was great when you could go out and get pissed on £20, now its around the 100euro mark for a decent night out. Its not just the pub prices, its taxi and food prices too, cause lets face it, who doesnt crave a Kebab or a snackbox on the way home?

ART6

Alan Ford wrote: »

i have.
heinken lager 1 litre €2.85
fags € 3.20
As for drinking at home,yes the fag ban as we used to go the every sunday evining to play cards(45) it was a great craic when we were able to smoke but now they dont turn up no more as its stupid to stop during games and go out for a smoke.
Scores forgoten,pints nicked or cleared of the table as bartender thinks we have gone.
So we drink and smoke at our neighbours and play cards trouble free.
imo there is more at home rather than the pubs as the atomosphere is gone.
Bring back the ould times and the govermnent leave us alone as we are old enough to decide to what we want! Hence "The nanny state!"

Absolutely. I now rarely go to the village pub when yer woman and I used to go regulary with mates. Our local is a mile and a half down the road, and I would have a couple of jars of the black stuff and drive home, cautiously and with the experience of 40 years of driving behind me. We all liked to have a fag or three. Now, if I want a fag I have to stand outside, and i no longer am prepared to risk my (clean) licence by drinking anything if I'm going to drive (I am even nervous about coffee in case they have included that in the breathalyser tests without me knowing). Our village pub has changed hands three times in the last three years, and is bound to go under sooner or later.

Yes, the "nanny state" indeed, overfilled with do gooders who want to stop anyone doing anything that offends them. The smoking ban was introduced to protect workers and customers from passive smoking, but I don't recall that working in a pub or going into one for a drink was ever compulsory. When the ban first came in it was hard to get a drink in Waterford because all the bar staff were outside having a fag.

Raekwon

High prices is one of the major factors that are keeping people away but only last weekend I found that over-zealous doormen are adding weight to the ‘cons’ of going to the pub and the ‘pros’ are rapidly shrinking fast.

I was stopped at the door of a pub last weekend because I was wearing trainers, I haven't been stopped for years but this particular EE bouncer took exception to me and refused me entry so I ended up ringing my mates that were already inside and we all moved to another pub down the street to spend our hard earned cash (I actually spent close to €100 that night so I guess it was their loss in the end).

At the end of the day I just have to laugh, publicans are complaining because they are losing business yet they still stick to stupid rules like 'neat dress essential' etc and turn away potential customers for minor infringments of those rules. Ah well, I have no sympathy for the muppets!