What's wrong with Lukes

RichardB2

Why has CHL not been getting support from the poker community?

mormank

i found that they didnt like randomers in there. i certainly was not made to feel welcome in there by the regulars when i was in there recently

RasTa

I got fed up of Tommy threating to beat people up and the staff doing nothing about it. Also the numbers where pretty poor, shame as it's a nice place.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

simple too many clubs in Dublin competing against each other

falterego

Have to say I've always been made very welcome when I've been there and I wouldn't be a regular on the live scene. Lower numbers are a vicious circle, people cite low turnouts as a reason not to drop in but how etc etc

kmick

Only went there once found them very friendly. Dealers were good and did not get annoyed at my constant mistakes. Would go back.

jem

a few of us went up one sat night and had a great time, numbers low but great structure and very friendly.

zuutroy

mormank wrote: »

i found that they didnt like randomers in there. i certainly was not made to feel welcome in there by the regulars when i was in there recently

I didnt find this at all. I was back for a weekend recently and myself and a few mates who never play live went in and found everyone (players/dealers/staff) really nice and nobody got annoyed with our constant string-betting and not posting...just some jokes about not having an auto-post button :pac:

Very good place imo...not that I've anywhere to compare it with

latenia

It can be a bit cliquey and of that small group of players the standard is definitely higher than you would get on some random table in the Fitz for example.

Glowingmind

I think a lot of it is down to a large chunk of dublin's playing populations already having a regular spot. Gamblers tend to be creatures of habit. When i first started playing live, i floated around all the card rooms, but now I play almost exclusively in the sporting emporium, despite the fact that lukes tourneys all have better structures. I've maybe been in 4-5 times since it opened and have never had anything but a pleasant experience (excluding the losing), but as someone who likes their routine I'll likely be sticking at the SE.

YULETIRED

all things being equal I like the athmophere in CHLs more than anywhere when the place has a few tables going.....so how to attract a few more people?

1. advertse tournys more agressively
2 Have a weekly 150 buy in on the weekend (to be different)
3. attract absolutely terrible cash players like the fitz and the SE....


the area where lukes is is a good catchment area and yet nothing denotes it as a casino.....is advertisng not allowed? leaflets in pubs in baggot steet etc? sign outside? the SE has great big lights and a huge sign...can chls have a temp one for the evenings they can put up?


my 2 cents...

YULETIRED

mormank wrote: »

i found that they didnt like randomers in there. i certainly was not made to feel welcome in there by the regulars when i was in there recently

probably becuase you say 'in there' too often.

suprised you got that impression though.....

Ollieboy

There is a problem with 1 or 2 regulars who I would rather take outside and !!!!!. Some of the players lack manners, but this is common in all the casino's in town and nothing new to CHL.

As Willie already mention, advertising would help but I don't really understand what the problem is, I think as already mention, most players go to the same place out of habit.

CHL casino is one of the best in Dublin, but I think the market is just over supplied and CHL's is taking the hit on this.

To be honest, I dont see any of the casino doing well in town with tourneys, most people just want to play online as its easier. I dont understand people playing cash at 1/2 as its impossible to beat the rake at live poker, unless your getting all the fish all the time, but this will result in the fish going broke and not coming back in the long run. If the fish go the SE and Fitz, than CHL will struggle to attract any new players.

maybe holding a festival would help to launch the place, more active tourney structure with sats or something, but I don't know if this would work as the SE is struggling to get a decent field for its 500 and 1k games.

With so many people playing on PPP or GJP why not link up with them and let people use there online bankroll to play live?

Macspower

CHL is by far my favourite spot when playing live....

the tourney structures are the best in town ... dealers are top class.. always made feel welcome... decent food at the breaks of any of the larger tourneys.... deli downstaris.... it has everything going for it apart from lacking one thing...... FISH!!

particularly in cash games.... personally I don't like Omaha and generally the only game available is ROE and the standard while I'm sure it's beatable it's no SE or Fitz ..

Part of the reason I think thjis is the case is that it is supported by guys from here and it's a regular thing to have 4 or 6 boardsies at a table in there where you dont get that other places...

Just my own opinion....

coillcam

I have only been to luke's about 4 times so far in the last 6 months that I've been in Dublin and I must say that I think it is a fantastic place.

Staff are excellent and tourneys have excellent value in their structures. The cyber cafe is cool aswell and you can even pick up some nice grub there too.

The only negatives I would have are the occasional low turnouts for tourneys and limited number of cash games going. There are 1 or 2 mouthy idiots of regs but that doesn't bother me as most places have a lot more.

mormank wrote: »

i found that they didnt like randomers in there. i certainly was not made to feel welcome in there by the regulars when i was in there recently

I can certainly say that the above was not the scenario when I first turned up and for subsequent visits, in fact I have never had a more welcoming or helpfull reception in any card room in Dublin, Galway or Mullingar.

The only place where I ever had a genuinely negative vibe or reception was in the 4 aces in Galway.

I'd love to see Luke's thriving and getting the numbers it deserves, but alas with the current number of card rooms/casino's around it is going to be very hard IMO to change things. As mentioned before there is too much competition around and somewhere else needs to close for things to improve.

doke

Macspower wrote: »

the tourney structures are the best in town ... dealers are top class.. always made feel welcome... decent food at the breaks of any of the larger tourneys.... deli downstaris.... it has everything going for it apart from lacking one thing...... FISH!!

....

Agreed. Standard definitely seems higher there, which is good if you're looking for an education from the better players, but not good for the bankroll.

I have to say I've always found almost everyone associated with the place extremely friendly. Highest overall standard of dealers in Dublin IMO, and there don't seem to be any unpleasant ones either.

Tommy threatening to beat you up or throw you down stairs is almost a rite of passage on the live Dublin scene, right up there with the General ranting "Oi, you very lucky man!".

I really hope the place takes off: it probably just needs to build a bit of critical mass. As someone said, low numbers is a vicious circle.

Get In There

RasTa wrote: »

I got fed up of Tommy threating to beat people up and the staff doing nothing about it.

I dont get why Tommy gets so much flak in here. He provides banter at the table and makes the game more humorous. I enjoy having him at my table, it's never quiet. He's some character for sure. Of course he may not be everyone's cup of tea- Some of you may think he lacks class, fair enuff maybe you could be right. But if you have any class yourself, bad-mouthing him in a popular forum which he doesn't read is not really the way to address any issues you have with him.

Back on topic, I've only been in the Jackpot once or twice, then started going to CHL exclusively. (I went into fitz for the 1st time last sun) On my first visit, I went in with a couple of friends and I have to agree with the guy who posted ages ago and said he felt like he was stepping into someone's house and not a casino. But there was a welcoming feel to it so I went back again on my own and started popping in friday evenings (helps that I work around the corner) and I always feel welcomed by the players and the staff who are really nice, especially the eye candy! Right now, I dont really have/cant think of any real ideas of how CHL can attract more support from the poker community in dublin but yeah linking up with an irish-based site like PPP or GJP wouldnt be such a bad idea!! But arent they already with gutshot?

RasTa

Get In There wrote: »

I dont get why Tommy gets so much flak in here. He provides banter at the table and makes the game more humorous. I enjoy having him at my table, it's never quiet. He's some character for sure. Of course he may not be everyone's cup of tea- Some of you may think he lacks class, fair enuff maybe you could be right. But if you have any class yourself, bad-mouthing him in a popular forum which he doesn't read is not really the way to address any issues you have with him.

I've no issue with Tommy, have fun with him at the table(in short bursts might I add) but I can remember 3 times when he was threaten to throw people down the stairs or calling someone an English pig etc etc, so I can see for a newbie who doesn't adopt the "ah sure it's only Tommy" approach, how they would never go back to Luke's n maybe tell their friends!.

Get In There

This thread is in danger of getting de-railed me thinks...

Jools Poker

I love Tommy - and I love Luke's - I'll always feel most at home there as it was there in the old Merrion that I first started playing live. There's no doubt the tournaments there have the best structures and I love the friendly atmosphere - but the numbers are a real deterrent. These days I tend to go there more when I want a friendly game with some old faces and some good craic - if I want to go out and try score a good result I'll go where the numbers are....

Tight Ted

Anyone care to tell us outsiders who Tommy is??? LMAO!!

Get In There

He was playin in the fitz on sun cos he was at my table making us all laugh, the cheeky bugger.

RichardB2

As the OP I'd love to get this back on topic here,
there may well be an issue with one or two of the regulars
but really as poker players are we not letting an opportunity slip away here.
An extra club offering good structures, staff, atmosphere etc can't be bad!

IMO the issue with CHL's comes down to one basic essential ... numbers.
Luke must be the best floor manager in the business
and it's heart breaking to see his dream dying a slow ugly death.

As a suggestion why not make a particular effort as boardsters and agree a night
to show our support and try to build some atmosphere in the place?
Perhaps the 1st Thursday in June head in and play the €50 double chance,
it'll cost €60 to play a decent structure with 7,000 chips.
Sure I might even provide some value at a cash table

smurph

Yeah sorry about the derailment,
That sounds like a great idea

doke

RichardB2 wrote: »

As a suggestion why not make a particular effort as boardsters and agree a night
to show our support and try to build some atmosphere in the place?
Perhaps the 1st Thursday in June head in and play the €50 double chance,
it'll cost €60 to play a decent structure with 7,000 chips.

Sounds like a plan.

DeadParrot

Macspower wrote: »

CHL is by far my favourite spot when playing live....

the tourney structures are the best in town ... dealers are top class.. always made feel welcome... decent food at the breaks of any of the larger tourneys.... deli downstaris.... it has everything going for it apart from lacking one thing...... FISH!!

particularly in cash games.... personally I don't like Omaha and generally the only game available is ROE and the standard while I'm sure it's beatable it's no SE or Fitz ..

Part of the reason I think thjis is the case is that it is supported by guys from here and it's a regular thing to have 4 or 6 boardsies at a table in there where you dont get that other places...

Just my own opinion....

Exactly, I get the opinion that a lot of weaker players view Lukes as a poker venue (and rightly so) and thusly assume the players will be better and the game harder and they havent as much of a chance of winning.

I'm not really explaining meself here well...alt+tabbing madly here but I hope you can catch me drift

Ollieboy

starting to sound like a return to teh boards grudge match, maybe the defending champion would leave his lovenest in the sticks to come out and play and have a few beers....lol

ionapaul

Tight Ted wrote: »

Anyone care to tell us outsiders who Tommy is??? LMAO!!

Don't suppose he is a loud Dub with a moustache? Could be any one of dozens of Dublin regs with that description but would help narrow it down for me; is his son quite young and a bit heavy-set?

I'm not sure I agree that CHLs location is the best; the foot traffic past there later at night is light compared to the Jackpot, the SE and that road is not as well lit as where the Fitz is and this in itself is a little off-putting I think. Some efforts should be made to alert the public to where it is and what it offers; most people have come across the other three card rooms but CHL is a bit of a mystery in comparison.

Theresalwaysone

I think Lukes needs to diversify from the set ways of all the other clubs. Every other club has the same PL games and Tourneys.

Maybe run another NL game to rival the Sporting, most people seem to have grievances with the Sportings dealers and food. Lukes is 100times better on both fronts.

Raise Awareness, I dont know many people outside the core poker community that know of Lukes, but they all know the Fitz or "Collossus". I don't know the best way to approach this but it needs to be done. In Colleges perhaps? Sponsor some event or whatnot? Run a "student game" much like the Jackpots 20game.

Actively encourage a Monthly Boards Grudge Match, the banter would be mighty and the atmosphere better (Ive just seen this mentioned previously in the thread) but it would be a great idea and I know many boardies who would definitely turn up to support Luke and Staff, myself included.

These threads sprout up occasionaly however and nothing seems to change, lukes seem to be making some effort in that they have agreed to the small stakes game for us bustoers and they do listen, it seems to be the punters who don't respond.

5starpool

I'm not sure 1 night at a tournament will be of any benefit.

Personally the reason I haven't been there is a long time is not down to people, layout or anything like that. It is down to numbers pure and simple. I don't play that many tournies lately, and when I do they are either monthly games or weekends and I generally like to see a decent few numbers in there or at least have the option of a cash game afterwards. If I was to go to a tournie in Lukes, and get knocked out at 10.30, then the fact that (so I have been told) it is usually close to midnight when a cash game kicks off isn't an attractive option, especially since by 9pm most nights there is a full Omaha game going in the Fitz. Never mind the nights when I only want a cash game. Lukes isn't even an option then due to the start time.

I would love to have the option of going to Lukes, and I know this numbers argument is a vicious circle etc, but this is plain and simple the reason. Another small part would be that I would nearly be embarrassed to show my face in there now it has been so long.

It doesn't help having the most successful club around the corner from you either. The plain fact is that 4 clubs is too many for a live scene the size of the one here. I have never been to the Jackpot, and go to the SE maybe 10 times a year ish as well only.

ollyk1

Ollieboy wrote: »

starting to sound like a return to teh boards grudge match, maybe the defending champion would leave his lovenest in the sticks to come out and play and have a few beers....lol

In fairness Ollie he hardly has time for the interweb these days!! Lovenest indeed :rolleyes: Do they not have broadband in Limerick is that it???

P.S. It's all about marketing to a wider community outside of regular poker players. Bring in fish and the rest will follow. Having one-off events for the community at large whilst good for getting the name out there and trying to change perceptions in the poker community is not nearly as effective as everyone knowing that you are going to get a nice easy plh game any night of the week.

Slash/ED

Is Tommys son the fella who celebrates winning all ins like he's Pippo Inzaghi?

I think the main problem with Luke's is, as has been said, the perception that it's a small player pool that is, by in large, better than the other clubs. How can you attract punters from the Fitz, Jackpot or SE cash games to come to a club with less selection and a tougher table? The bottom line for most players is simply their win-rate and if that'll be better elsewhere they wont come and I really can't see how Lukes can solve this without alot of advertising to attract the random punters into the place who, in turn, attract the regulars.

And I've said it before, it is only a minor detail I know, but I just don't like the name. I think to the average punter it seems kind of unprofessional, or something. It alone wont turn anyone off going but I still think the others simply sound better, more like 'real' casinos or something, and it could have a tiny tiny effect on the more casual persons decision to decide on which casino to goto especially for a first time.

Theresalwaysone

Jammer go on msn.

Slash/ED

Give me twenty minutes...It's about time I got up and had some lunch...

cardshark202

The big problem imo is the building is not really set up for a casino/poker room. The merrion died there for a reason. It is a shame cos I like Luke and would like to see him succeed, but he would be better off starting something in a new building in a different area imo

DeadParrot

cardshark202 wrote: »

The big problem imo is the building is not really set up for a casino/poker room. The merrion died there for a reason. It is a shame cos I like Luke and would like to see him succeed, but he would be better off starting something in a new building in a different area imo

Also a very good point.
But with the capital involved in establishing a new premises that is tailor made for his needs, he might do well to stick where he is, build up the clientèle and then move to more attractive premises

jbravado

The tournies are great/food/staff/etc but they NEED more numbers for tournies/cash-Im not sure how you go about this but I cant imagaine a lot of the weeknd crew even know its a casino. I agree maybe diversify from what the others are offering-try and establish it as THE place where bigger nl/pl games happen or whatever. I dont think its anything to do with the percieved standard of players tbh-merrion always used to be hugely popular with student population maybe run some games where tickets to bigger ganmes are included-but let them know where the place is!
I hope it picks up as obv Luke is top notch and will certainly try and make it in to play that game.

BarrierReef

I haven't been to the place in months, When I did call in the lack of Action led me striaght around the corner to the Fitz where the tables were packed.

If it was my business, I would be trying to build a regular base of clients for cash games, the only way I can see that happening is to perhaps offer Zero Raked games for a period ( say 3 months ), or rakeback for cash players that they collect every month. ( I don't think it would even have to be that much to generate some interest )

Another thing that works very well in some of the smaller vegas card rooms, is a best hand ( every hour ), in the Luxor I think it is about $50 ( It doens't even have to be that much ) , Also the Bad Beat jackpot should be alot easier to win with smaller prizes and requirements.

I know places have their cash game leagues, but they don't appeal to me ( or most casual players ) as I don't play often enough to build up the hours to qualify, and end up contributing to other's prize pool.

One last thing if they got rid of the "String Bet" nonsense that is in all Dublin Card Rooms and allowed player to cut chips when betting, I have a feeling that that would be very popualar

Goodluck2me

DeadParrot wrote: »

Also a very good point.
But with the capital involved in establishing a new premises that is tailor made for his needs, he might do well to stick where he is, build up the clientèle and then move to more attractive premises

disagree totally, i he built it up he wouldnt need to move.

Goodluck2me

BarrierReef wrote: »

I haven't been to the place in months, When I did call in the lack of Action led me striaght around the corner to the Fitz where the tables were packed.

If it was my business, I would be trying to build a regular base of clients for cash games, the only way I can see that happening is to perhaps offer Zero Raked games for a period ( say 3 months ), or rakeback for cash players that they collect every month. ( I don't think it would even have to be that much to generate some interest )

Another thing that works very well in some of the smaller vegas card rooms, is a best hand ( every hour ), in the Luxor I think it is about $50 ( It doens't even have to be that much ) , Also the Bad Beat jackpot should be alot easier to win with smaller prizes and requirements.

I know places have their cash game leagues, but they don't appeal to me ( or most casual players ) as I don't play often enough to build up the hours to qualify, and end up contributing to other's prize pool.

One last thing if they got rid of the "String Bet" nonsense that is in all Dublin Card Rooms and allowed player to cut chips when betting, I have a feeling that that would be very popualar

wow. all very good points

DeadParrot

goodluck2me wrote: »

disagree totally, i he built it up he wouldnt need to move.

I was saying in regards to Reggies point of the venue not 100% suitable.
at the moment a move wouldnt be viable, but if he built it up he could look at expansion to a better premises.
Do you not agree that the location and amenities at CHL's are not exactly 100% attractive?

bohsman

5starpool wrote: »

Another small part would be that I would nearly be embarrassed to show my face in there now it has been so long.

I think thats become a problem for a few people, it really shouldnt.

Will start a thread about a grudge match now, was actually discussing it with gholi at the irish open, about time we had another one. Thread up for ideas http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=56062001#post56062001

DeVore

I love Lukes and Luke has been a mate since the first day I set foot in a casino.
Its bad that a lot of people havent shown any loyalty. I dont mean that everyone should up sticks from the Fitz, I still play there sometimes but I also make a point of playing in CHL's (as much for the structures as anything else!).

There are positives and negatives about the place but I will make those points (and have made them) to the people involved.

In terms of something positive... Luke has always supported Boards and we should consider supporting him back too. I'm up for a Boards night sometime but I dont have time to organise it these days I'm afraid... I'll happily play in one though!

DeV.

Goodluck2me

DeadParrot wrote: »

I was saying in regards to Reggies point of the venue not 100% suitable.
at the moment a move wouldnt be viable, but if he built it up he could look at expansion to a better premises.
Do you not agree that the location and amenities at CHL's are not exactly 100% attractive?

It was said that the place wasn't busy due to its unattractive location, i.e. that if they moved they would possibly attract more people. I thought you said they should build up the clients then move, which makes no sense, as they would have already solved the problem, moving was supposed to appease.

thechamp87

RichardB2 wrote: »

Why has CHL not been getting support from the poker community?

Hi Luke.

bohsman

thechamp87 wrote: »

Hi Luke.

lol at thinking Luke could manage to turn on the internet and manage to set up an account here. It is a chl regular that does not work for them in any way though.

mormank

zuutroy wrote: »

I didnt find this at all. I was back for a weekend recently and myself and a few mates who never play live went in and found everyone (players/dealers/staff) really nice and nobody got annoyed with our constant string-betting and not posting...just some jokes about not having an auto-post button :pac:

Very good place imo...not that I've anywhere to compare it with

well when i was there a couple of the regulars kept makin snide comments about me to eachother and whenever i said something like, 'sorry are you referring to me?' they would just look at me and then say 'am i talking to you?'.

when i finally had enough of this behaviour i left to scouls of 'ah its only an excuse so he can protect his profit!!'. and then i was chased outside and threatened by one of the guys i was playin against!!!

luke to be fair came str8 out and gave me the usual assurances but no way i need that kinda sh@t when im playin a game of cards!!

mormank

YULETIRED wrote: »

probably becuase you say 'in there' too often.

suprised you got that impression though.....

point taken!!!

strewelpeter

Lukes has everything going for it except numbers. The Tournament structures, food, location, and in some respects its atmosphere all put it just ahead of the SE and the Fitz IMHO.

Maybe there isn't room for four clubs in Dublin, if so then it would be a shame if Lukes was the one to lose out.
There are plenty of marketing efforts that could be tried and some of Barrier reefs ideas are very good. Also the ideas of close links to online sites (that locals use) could bring in more new players.

I'll just mention again a point I've brought up a couple of times and I still think there is a better answer to it that I haven't figured out yet, I've spoke to Luke about it recently:
When I'm home I drive up to Dublin on a Friday night to play, A couple of times I've passed by a heavily promoted game that has more players than the combined tournament entries in all the clubs in Dublin on the same night. There are no dealers and only a % of the entries are returned as prize money. There are probably many reasons why people prefer to be ripped off in a shed in County Kildare than get excellent value for money in a well run comfortable club with professional dealers but IMO one of the main reasons that people flock to these games is the signs that have been posted in every pub and on the side of the road for weeks before the game promoting the main fact of the game - €10,000 Guaranteed
Surely if you want to bring people out to a club guarantees are the one sure way to do it.
A guarantee of 10 or 15K for the Monthly game and 5K - 8K weekly game (the two best structured regular games going) might cost a bit of overlay in the first month but as marketing budgets go.
One way or another some creative thinking is needed , it genuinely saddens me to see only 25 people turn up for an event of the quality of the Monthly game.

[heres an absurd idea that could work - Make the guarantee 15K and get a sponsor from an online site to underwrite any overlay by having it paid into online accounts - they get new accounts and share the risk.]

CourierCollie

Slash/ED wrote: »

And I've said it before, it is only a minor detail I know, but I just don't like the name. I think to the average punter it seems kind of unprofessional, or something. It alone wont turn anyone off going but I still think the others simply sound better, more like 'real' casinos or something, and it could have a tiny tiny effect on the more casual persons decision to decide on which casino to goto especially for a first time.

I'm sure the name isn't the problem. I remember thinking it was strange at first, but, it's kinda grown on me. Also remember mentioning the Sporting Emporium to some non poker playing friends and they almost fell over laughing(probably at the idea of me getting exercise)!
Have to say I've felt more welcome there than in any of the other 3. Wasn't aware of any 'regulars', other than the staff.

Ollieboy

strewelpeter wrote: »

Lukes has everything going for it except numbers. The Tournament structures, food, location, and in some respects its atmosphere all put it just ahead of the SE and the Fitz IMHO.

Maybe there isn't room for four clubs in Dublin, if so then it would be a shame if Lukes was the one to lose out.
There are plenty of marketing efforts that could be tried and some of Barrier reefs ideas are very good. Also the ideas of close links to online sites (that locals use) could bring in more new players.

I'll just mention again a point I've brought up a couple of times and I still think there is a better answer to it that I haven't figured out yet, I've spoke to Luke about it recently:
When I'm home I drive up to Dublin on a Friday night to play, A couple of times I've passed by a heavily promoted game that has more players than the combined tournament entries in all the clubs in Dublin on the same night. There are no dealers and only a % of the entries are returned as prize money. There are probably many reasons why people prefer to be ripped off in a shed in County Kildare than get excellent value for money in a well run comfortable club with professional dealers but IMO one of the main reasons that people flock to these games is the signs that have been posted in every pub and on the side of the road for weeks before the game promoting the main fact of the game - €10,000 Guaranteed
Surely if you want to bring people out to a club guarantees are the one sure way to do it.
A guarantee of 10 or 15K for the Monthly game and 5K - 8K weekly game (the two best structured regular games going) might cost a bit of overlay in the first month but as marketing budgets go.
One way or another some creative thinking is needed , it genuinely saddens me to see only 25 people turn up for an event of the quality of the Monthly game.

[heres an absurd idea that could work - Make the guarantee 15K and get a sponsor from an online site to underwrite any overlay by having it paid into online accounts - they get new accounts and share the risk.]

agree with this, Guarantees create interest and get people in. Last month Luke Guarantee 5k for the EOM game, to be fair this was about 3k to little, as 8k was 40 players. 40 players should always be the target, get players in for the tourneys and the cash games will come. Offer the rakeback on cash tables and a cheaper rake or both, this will attrack players and word of mouth will spread. But linking up with PPP is a must, Gunshot are nobodies in the Irish industry and Irisheyes in the Fitz's is also a joke. Means nothing to people.

Also, 500 games every 1/4 with sats weekly and again gaurantees. One of the best clubs in Ireland is the Macu in Cork and it works for them. I've a lot of time for Luke and the guys in CHL's, but I've no interest in going to town for 20 player game that starts at 9:30 when it should start at 8:30. I've stop playing live over the last year, mostly due to little value offer anywhere in Dublin