Better Achievement?

Tim Robbins

Munster winning the Heineken Cup or Leinster winning the Magners League?

One requires you get up for the big games, a little bit of luck (CA play their second team and give you five points), the other requires you get yourself up for the not so big games. Away to Glasgow in mucky weather when no-one cares etc. etc.

Stev_o

Atari!

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Munster winning the Heineken Cup or Leinster winning the Magners League?

One requires you get up for the big games, a little bit of luck (CA play their second team and give you five points), the other requires you get yourself up for the not so big games. Away to Glasgow in mucky weather when no-one cares etc. etc.

Winning is winning and trying to separate which is a better win is complete rubbish as is each is equal to the last. Both gave 100% to achieve there goal and thats what happened so therefore the achievements are the exact same.

Tim Robbins

Atari!

Stev_o wrote: »

Winning is winning and trying to separate which is a better win is complete rubbish as is each is equal to the last. Both gave 100% to achieve there goal and thats what happened so therefore the achievements are the exact same.

Agree. But the media separate them, so do many fans.

Amazotheamazing

About the same

One is one of the greatest club comps in the world, the other is a league where half the teams don't take it seriously.

The Welsh teams played their seconds to allow their players go to a training camp for the SA tour. Munster used it as a warm-up to the HEC, and the Scottish teams are asked who to play by their national coach. As a league it's getting better, but it's no-where near the HEC.

zAbbo

About the same

This year I'd have to say HC, due to the RWC making players miss the early games.

Tim Robbins

Atari!

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

One is one of the greatest club comps in the world, the other is a league where half the teams don't take it seriously.

The Welsh teams played their seconds to allow their players go to a training camp for the SA tour. Munster used it as a warm-up to the HEC, and the Scottish teams are asked who to play by their national coach. As a league it's getting better, but it's no-where near the HEC.

But French teams don't take the HC as serious as Irish teams.
If Munster brought as many fans as Toulouse to the final, there would be 8,000 fans at it, about the same as a Magners League game.

The Scarlets and Cardiff took the ML quite seriously this year. Ospreys agree played weak teams for a few games. Munster were in it, up until Leinster beat them and did take it seriously. They really tried to strangle an away game against Cardiff just to secure a win. It was anything but experimental Rugby.

Size=everything

Atari!

Yeah but I would also say that to win the Magners league is just as challenging as winning the HEC. You have to win week in week out and be consistent throughout.

Its a tough competition and shouldn't be scoffed at

Cool_CM

Atari!

As biased as I am as a Munster supporter, I really don't think it matters. People might say that Munster faced a better calibre of teams to win the HC but at the end of the day it was a great ending to a seaon that started off so badly for Irish rugby as a whole, one that whilst it wont banish the memories of the world cup will help to instill some much needed confidence back into Irish rugby. It was a great achievement on both the parts of Leinster and Munster and I don't think we should take away from this by debating which one was "better", the competitions are over and both titles are residing in Ireland. What more do you want?

toomevara

About the same

Cool_CM wrote: »

It was a great achievement on both the parts of Leinster and Munster and I don't think we should take away from this by debating which one was "better", the competitions are over and both titles are residing in Ireland. What more do you want?

+1, lets not go down a 'mine is bigger than yours' road...it's all good for Munster, Leinster and Irish rugby...its all gravy.....

EdgarAllenPoo

About the same

Regardless of the fact that it was Munster who won it the Heineken Cup will always be bigger than the Magners so I'd say that is a bigger achievement.

We seem to be punching above our weight in this country. We have such a small playing population and yet our teams have done so much this year.

Podge_irl

The HEC will always be viewed as the better acomplishment in general. I can't remember where I read it, but I read a piece which pointed out that Irish people especially have a facination with knock-out tournaments over leagues. I would tend to agree with that.

As to which is the better achievement in my view, I currently think the HEC is still harder to win, but you get teams not trying or just plain crap teams in both competitions. Leinster's run of 11 or 12 games unbeaten in the ML was very impressive. Again, next year will be a better test of the league as a competition, but it will always remain different to the HEC.

Diamondmaker

As Tim Robbons puts it, for Munster its more about getting up for 4 or 5 big games in a row. There is much more to a truly succesful season than that, but ultimately success is measured on the H Cup as it is the most popular competiton with viewers, so is it a popularity contest

But seriously in Ireland it is the big prize, Eng less so and the French would always rather the Top 14 if they had to choose.

No man could get away with claiming the Magners is a better win without being accused of sour grapes. However on the other side, the week in week out toughness of any league victory has its virtues.

The H Cup requires a different frame of mind than the league and vice versa but until the fans ( and thats all its about, bums on seats, TV ratings and a bit of a pedgree) take the ML more seriusly, the H Cup will alwys mean a lot more.

Id rather a HCup next season than an ML double for example, just to get that red monkey off our back and get out of the red shadow..

Phaetonman

About the same

Munster are the liverpool of rubgy.

bill_ashmount

About the same

Always the HC. The league is the equivalent to the GAA league, just a warm up for the main competition and a chance for the teams who can't win the big one to have a chance of a trophy in much the same way as football and hurling leagues.

puntosporting

About the same

The H cup is a far superior competion no denying it!
We would not have this question if leinster did not win it this year clutch at straws all you like lads leinster would give up the league in a heart beat for a H cup common like!

toomevara

About the same

In response to a poll on the go re: which is the better achievement,winning The HC or the ML. Think the better question is; if your province can win one major tournament next year which would it be....be honest!!

Amz

Hardly requires a new thread really.

Stev_o

Atari!

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Always the HC. The league is the equivalent to the GAA league, just a warm up for the main competition and a chance for the teams who can't win the big one to have a chance of a trophy in much the same way as football and hurling leagues.

But the argument is that in the league you have to be consistent all year [Podge's words i think] where is in HC you dont have to be so consistent as long as you preform on the day.


But why are people arguing Leinster won all their matches need to win and Munster won all their matches they needed to win the result was two trophy's in the Irish Cabinet. Can we just be happy about that i mean last year their was endless moaning about how both teams crashed and burned in both competition lets be happy we won something this year.

Podge_irl

Pretty similar topic, no?

toomevara

About the same

Amz wrote: »

Hardly requires a new thread really.

Would disagree, imo it should put the question concerning which prize is the more coveted to bed...but hey what do I know...(just thought I chuck that in as an edit, in case youre right!)

bleg

About the same

HC is a better achievment than winning the ML GP or top 14

Crash

Atari!

I'd say the HC - however in my mind, what Munster need to become a truly excellent team is to find that week in week out form thats required for the magners - for instance having had a loss of form essentially since Gloucester, it did show in the final in a number of players form.

Bleg, whatever about the ML, but not quite sure the justification for it being better than winning the GP or Top14 really. The french take the top14 waaaay more seriously than the HC, so its obvious which is a better achievement there for them.

Amazotheamazing

About the same

In the league it also helps if your entire pack isn't taken away during the season for the RWC and 6n's.

The ML's biggest issue is three national sides are being drawn from it, so the standard drops when the Int camps or comps are on. A team like Leinster, with a decent but not top level pack, and strength in depth in the backs will have an advantage over a team like Munster which loses it's first choice 1-10.

Phaetonman

About the same

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

In the league it also helps if your entire pack isn't taken away during the season for the RWC and 6n's.

The ML's biggest issue is three national sides are being drawn from it, so the standard drops when the Int camps or comps are on. A team like Leinster, with a decent but not top level pack, and strength in depth in the backs will have an advantage over a team like Munster which loses it's first choice 1-10.

Leinster lost plenty of players as well. Strenght in depth just means you are a better side.

Amazotheamazing

About the same

Phaetonman wrote: »

Leinster lost plenty of players as well. Strenght in depth just means you are a better side.

Not really, Munster were also losing back-up players like Sheahan and Buckley. Even where we have strength in depth our players were being taken.

Tim Robbins

Atari!

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Not really, Munster were also losing back-up players like Sheahan and Buckley. Even where we have strength in depth our players were being taken.

For how many games? Not many. Cronin's not a bad hooker, only right he should get his chance.

The keep the GP and top 14 going during VI nations weekends, they stop ML.

Basically, I think we have fallen for a load of hype and marketing from Sky, Heineken and RTE.
Rugby is just Rugby after all.

Pshan

About the same

The HEC without a doubt.

Crash

Atari!

Feck that, I want a double

louthandproud

About the same

HEC undoubtably

buck65

About the same

Would love to see the Magners Lge as a qualifier for the HCup, ie top 6 teams only qualify with last years Hcup winners/ and Parker pen cup winners also included.
This would force teams to compete in the ML even if they can't win it.
Imagine the great games in the last few weeks if teams were in 6th 7th or 8th place

louthandproud

About the same

The poll tells the story, most people if not all would prefer to win the HEC, that would include the players and management teams. Winning the Magniers league is also a big achievement but the HEC is the ultimate club competition in the Northern Hemisphere. Arguments about who takes is seriously aside, no one could argue that it isn't a more difficult tournament to win than the Magniers league.

Size=everything

Atari!

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Not really, Munster were also losing back-up players like Sheahan and Buckley. Even where we have strength in depth our players were being taken.

Not trying to start anything but Leinster suffered the same if not more.

Size=everything

Atari!

Didn't really think this needed a new poll but obviously the HEC because of its notoriety.

I still think winning the magners league is just as challenging as winning the HEC though. People may laugh at that when judging the type of opponents one faces in both but its the grueling week in week out matches away against awkward opponents that make the Magners League such a hard fought prize.

buck65

About the same

Went with the Henson option myself, honestly thought this was a piss take

Bounty Hunter

dont think anyone would choose the ML over the HC really

Size=everything

Atari!

I think theres a grain of "IN YOUR FACE" with this poll.

I mean its clear to everyone that they would prefer the HEC but thats not to say Leinster didn't achieve as much as Munster just that Munster won the preferable achievement!! They are both difficult competitions in their own ways. HEC is certainly the more exciting competition to win though

Tim Robbins

Atari!

buck65 wrote: »

Would love to see the Magners Lge as a qualifier for the HCup, ie top 6 teams only qualify with last years Hcup winners/ and Parker pen cup winners also included.
This would force teams to compete in the ML even if they can't win it.
Imagine the great games in the last few weeks if teams were in 6th 7th or 8th place

+ 1 seems an obvious no brainer.

Amazotheamazing

About the same

RickyHatton wrote: »

Not trying to start anything but Leinster suffered the same if not more.

No, not really.

Munster lost Horan, Flannery, Sheahan, Hayes, Buckley, O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Quinlan, Wallace, Stringer, O'Gara and Carney. 12 players.

Leinster lost O'Kelly, Contepomi, D'Arcy, O'Driscoll, Horgan, Hickie (who retired anyhow) and Dempsey. 6 players (didn't include Hickie as he was retired after RWC)

I wouldn't consider that suffering the same if not more.

toomevara

About the same

RickyHatton wrote: »

I think theres a grain of "IN YOUR FACE" with this poll.

Yeah, I realise it could be taken that way due to the insane tribal nonsense taking over on here of late...didn't mean it that way and I was the first to applaud Leinster's brilliant achievement this year, not only did they win the ML, but they were head and shoulders above everyone else in the league...I'm one of those obviously increasingly rare folk who take great pleasure when both leinster and munster do well..and no i've not been at the crack again....it is possible!

I just put the poll on because it would instantly show which is the most coveted sought after c'ship and its clearly the heineken...no other partisan or tribal reasons...although the G.Henson sounds tempting to me...

RuggieBear

bleg wrote: »

HC is a better achievement than winning the ML GP or top 14

I'd have to totally disagree with that I'm afraid. The Irish provinces would get chewed up and spat out in the Top 14. (and perhaps the Guinness Premiership too) We just don't have the squads to survive in that sort of intense grinding week in week out rugby.

Leinster and Munster would be lucky to be mid table and connacht and ulster would easily be near the bottom of either league (although i wouldn't say relegation). On our day and in one off games the provinces can beat anyone but no irish team would be able to get up for 20+ games that is required...

The magners league is different as the unions have a large say in player management. That means you can have a full strength team play second stringers a few times a season.

phog

About the same

In deciding which was the better achievement you should look at next year and ask yourself which of the Competitions would you prefer your club to win. In my case it's the European Cup by a country mile.

Junior

How about both ?

Sangre

About the same

RickyHatton wrote: »

I think theres a grain of "IN YOUR FACE" with this poll.

That's what I first thought, really goes to show how petty it has got around here unfortunately.

HC without a doubt. For the obvious reason that you're competing against the best clubs in all of europe in a KO pressure situation. Its the same reason most people would take the champions league over the premiership (although its not as obvious in football).

toomevara

About the same

Sangre wrote: »

That's what I first thought, really goes to show how petty it has got around here unfortunately.

.

can I refer you to post number 12 please....ta!

Sangre

About the same

I said thats what I FIRST thought. The general pettiness present on the forum made me jump to that conclusion (not because of your style) but obviously its not the case. Still a sad reflection on the forum's current state (its not that bad though!).

toomevara

About the same

Sangre wrote: »

I said thats what I FIRST thought. The general pettiness present on the forum made me jump to that conclusion (not because of your style) but obviously its not the case. Still a sad reflection on the forum's current state (its not that bad though!).

Thanks Sangre,no worries, am in full agreement re: the pettiness thing though...people are so bleedin' chippy of late...time for a new sticky or a soccer forum style sponsored membership perhaps?..I dont know, just getting really tedious, invasive and toxic of late....harrumph!!!

Phaetonman

About the same

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

No, not really.

Munster lost Horan, Flannery, Sheahan, Hayes, Buckley, O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Quinlan, Wallace, Stringer, O'Gara and Carney. 12 players.

Leinster lost O'Kelly, Contepomi, D'Arcy, O'Driscoll, Horgan, Hickie (who retired anyhow) and Dempsey. 6 players (didn't include Hickie as he was retired after RWC)

I wouldn't consider that suffering the same if not more.

What are you on about?

First six nations game, match day 22
Backs: Girvan Dempsey, Gordon D'Arcy, Robert Kearney, Geordan Murphy, Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan O'Gara, Eoin Reddan, Peter Stringer, Andrew Trimble, Paddy Wallace
Forwards: Rory Best, Tony Buckley, Simon Easterby, John Hayes, Jamie Heaslip, Marcus Horan, Bernard Jackman, Denis Leamy, Donncha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll, Malcolm O'Kelly, David Wallace



7 Leinster, 9 Munster

RuggieBear

threads merged.

RuggieBear

toomevara wrote: »

Thanks Sangre,no worries, am in full agreement re: the pettiness thing though...people are so bleedin' chippy of late...time for a new sticky or a soccer forum style sponsored membership perhaps?..I dont know, just getting really tedious, invasive and toxic of late....harrumph!!!

i'm trying my best.:(

Sangre

About the same

try harder

toomevara

About the same

RuggieBear wrote: »

i'm trying my best.:(

not a dig mate, don't envy you at all.. definitely a case of rather you than me!!!Just seems to have gone hog wild round here of late...