End of PC Piracy ?

MooseJam

came across this on the escapist, is this the end of piracy ?

Atari founder Nolan Bushnell says a new chip puts computer piracy on the verge of being eradicated.

Speaking at a conference hosted by Wedbush Morgan Securities, Bushnell said a motherboard chip on computers currently in production will wipe out piracy and thus boost sales in Asia and India.

"There is a stealth encryption chip called a TPM that is going on the motherboards of most of the computers that are coming out now," he said.

"What that says is that in the games business we will be able to encrypt with an absolutely verifiable private key in the encryption world - which is uncrackable by people on the internet and by giving away passwords - which will allow for a huge market to develop in some of the areas where piracy has been a real problem," he continued.

Bushnell said there was no stopping film piracy because they could simply be recorded and copied. Games, he added, "are a different thing, because games are so integrated with the code. The TPM will, in fact, absolutely stop piracy of gameplay."

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

hah
someone, somewhere will find a way.

MooseJam

I think it would be great if it's true, though I buy all my games

Jack Sheehan

Uncrackable? Blu Ray anyone?

Sherifu

Mordances with wolves wrote: »

hah
someone, somewhere will find a way.

It's a global effort.

AntiVirus

MooseJam wrote: »

because games are so integrated with the code

that's your answer right there

AlmightyCushion

MooseJam wrote: »

The TPM will, in fact, absolutely stop piracy of gameplay."

They should rename it the titanic.

So what happens if you install an encrypted game on a motherboard without one? Does the game not work? That would be a bad idea for a games company to require this tpm chip if their game doesn't work without it. The chip would have to be on every computer released over the past few years other wise they could rule out a lot of their customers.

If the game will work without the tpm chip then why would any mobo manufacturer put one on their motherboard (increased costs that gives no benefit)?

Also do you have a link for the article?

Onikage

New? They've been talking about this since 2002 at least. Palladium, anyone?

Placebo

india/pak 50 euro game = approx 4k ruppies.

you can get a motorbike there for 10k, on top of that average salary per year is less than 40k. [RS. not euros]

anyway theyll just have custom build pc's or buy motherboards without tcm
or someone will make a 'MODCHIP'

OR run iso images after a tcm user rips it?

MooseJam

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Also do you have a link for the article?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/84079-Atari-Founder-PC-Piracy-About-to-be-Eradicated

magick

the more they hype this up as "unlockable/unhackable"

the armies of hackers/coders are licking their lips at a shot at this, and will be eventually cracked.

Cuddlesworth

The problem with all methods of encryption is the decryption part. Simply reading the data on the chip during the game would present the decryption key. Its the exact same problem that has led to the fall of un-hackable blue-ray.

Encryption only works if you don't give them access to the key, for eg, a hard-drive encrypted and turned off. To access the password/key you need to already know it.

If the hard-drive is on and decrypting on the fly then the key is available already to examine and use at a later date.

i_am_dogboy

Could Nolan Bushnell be associated with some company offering DRM based on the TMPs going onto motherboards by chance?

The only way this could prevent piracy in all cases is if every developer from now 'till games stop selling start using an anti piracy solution built around the chips, and that would probably alienate most of us here, and most gamers in most places. Or they could build in some kind of legacy system that does the verification somewhere outside the chip, and that quickly lead to a situation like what Cuddlesworth mentioned. And of course the devices would have to be perfect.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

The problem with all methods of encryption is the decryption part. Simply reading the data on the chip during the game would present the decryption key. Its the exact same problem that has led to the fall of un-hackable blue-ray.

Chances are the device would be well shielded enough to prevent just reading the key from the chip, or else this is as much bull**** at gusto as the blu ray DRM scheme (which was only considered secure through it's convaluted nature, rather than being cryptographically solid). The blu ray DRM was cracked by statistical analysis of a certain part of the verification process from what I know, and that revealed a single key that's present on every single disk that uses the scheme. That's what I gather from it anyway, I could be wrong...

I can't think of how they'd plan on implementing this, the likes of the windows drive encryption uses cryptographic functions of the TPM, but I don't think they use the key that's on the device. Unless it's a big public key cryptography system, which would mean signing something when the game is started, phoning home to some big central sever and getting it verified, which would be far too costly to justify just to stop pc gaming piracy.

Anyway, I'm rambling, I think someone's trying to make some noise, rather than making an actual point, kind of like how that drunk at the end of the table will make some indecipherable noise every once in a while when nobody's paying any attention to him...

And if this somehow happen, and it is as intrusive as it could be, and it prevents me from giving a game to my friend to try it out, or just putting it on a second PC so I can play it in a different room, I'm just not going to buy games that use this kind of DRM. Simple solution.

Maximilian

That's a complete joke. I suspect people will simply reject any PC's with this chip included. In any event - it sounds as though this is aimed squarely at China.

Stephen

^^ Unlikely. TPM chips have been around for a good while now. Its quite possible you already have one, especially if you've got a laptop.

Maximilian

Stephen wrote: »

^^ Unlikely. TPM chips have been around for a good while now. Its quite possible you already have one, especially if you've got a laptop.

In that case, I for one, welcome our new TPM chip overlords.

Peanut

"..which will allow for a huge market to develop in some of the areas where piracy has been a real problem"

Yeah whatever... if this didn't seem like marketing BS from the start then that confirms it - it should be clear to a 2 year old that you can't assume that a copyright infringement = a lost sale.

Trode

Peanut wrote: »

"..which will allow for a huge market to develop in some of the areas where piracy has been a real problem"

Yeah whatever... if this didn't seem like marketing BS from the start then that confirms it - it should be clear to a 2 year old that you can't assume that a copyright infringement = a lost sale.

Especially not in the regions they're talking about. If anyone thinks that the game-playing population of places like Russia, China and Korea are going to rush out and buy all the latest games at full price each month if they can't pirate them, they are massively delusional. If they really think this will work, I hope they're happy only selling to a minority of net cafes and gold-farming outfits.

RedXIV

MooseJam wrote: »

which is uncrackable by people on the internet

I love reading that line. read it 3 times and laughed every time.

ballybay_eh

If it did work it'd mean cheaper games/software. Which is great if you actually pay for your software.

Otherwise its terrible news.



If it works.

Maximilian

RedXIV wrote: »

I love reading that line. read it 3 times and laughed every time.

If you actually did that - if that's actually what happened - then I'm afraid you are a deeply weird person

Maximilian

ballybay_eh wrote: »

If it did work it'd mean cheaper games/software. Which is great if you actually pay for your software.

Otherwise its terrible news.



If it works.

You assume that software publishers are actually honest in that way and would "pass on" the extra revenue by reducing prices.

By that logic, they would have already passed on savings made by digital distribution, since there's no discs, mastering, packaging, distribution costs, wholesaler cuts, retail cuts etc.

In many cases, the digital version is more expensive that the retail counterpart.

Its hard to have sympathy with these companies a lot of the time.

Branoic

What would happen if your machine went tits-up and you needed to get a new one? Would you not be able to play games you had to re-install on the new machine?

ballybay_eh

Maximilian wrote: »

You assume that software publishers are actually honest in that way and would "pass on" the extra revenue by reducing prices.

By that logic, they would have already passed on savings made by digital distribution, since there's no discs, mastering, packaging, distribution costs, wholesaler cuts, retail cuts etc.

In many cases, the digital version is more expensive that the retail counterpart.

Its hard to have sympathy with these companies a lot of the time.

We probably wouldn't see the benefits in the short term, no.

I was thinking nore so in the long run. Economic theory would suggest that eventually these savings would get passed on to us as a reduction in piracy would be equivalent to a reduction in costs.

Maximilian

ballybay_eh wrote: »

We probably wouldn't see the benefits in the short term, no.

I was thinking nore so in the long run. Economic theory would suggest that eventually these savings would get passed on to us as a reduction in piracy would be equivalent to a reduction in costs.

You would hope so but companies don't give a crap if they can gouge more money out of people. Markets don't always work according to theory. Good case for some Competition Authority to examine if you ask me.

Another reason for the pricing is there would be open war if the publishers tried to significantly undercut retailers by selling games online themselves. No doubt that consumers are being screwed however.

KamiKazi

Mordances with the proletariat wrote: »

hah
someone, somewhere will find a way.

Got that right.


This is almost as laughable as that Intel motherboard that supposedly stops cheating by monitoring user input etc.

Spunge

MACs had a chip which would allow the os only to be installed on a mac with that chip, but they bypassed that so now you can install it on pc hardware.

someone would crack it at some point.

Ross_Mahon

There will be a lot of angry pirates out there! But they will find a way around this nonsense....:mad:

Smellyirishman

Ross_Mahon wrote: »

There will be a lot of angry pirates out there! But they will find a way around this nonsense....:mad:

Why exactly is it nonsense?

Personally, I hope it works. I'm doubtful that it will in the long run but piracy is slowing down an industry I love.

RedXIV

Maximilian wrote: »

If you actually did that - if that's actually what happened - then I'm afraid you are a deeply weird person

I never pretended to be any other way! in fact i shall take it as a compliment!

MooseJam

Smellyirishman wrote: »

Why exactly is it nonsense?

Personally, I hope it works. I'm doubtful that it will in the long run but piracy is slowing down an industry I love.

+1

Maximilian

RedXIV wrote: »

I never pretended to be any other way! in fact i shall take it as a compliment!

I had a feeling you would say that

Trode

Branoic wrote: »

What would happen if your machine went tits-up and you needed to get a new one? Would you not be able to play games you had to re-install on the new machine?

No you wouldn't, but to be fair most modern DRM/anti-piracy measures have that result, or are aiming to.

This is no worse than others in that regard, but that doesn't mean it's in any way an acceptable or forgivable position.

User45701

The way to end piracy would be instead off mass producting games have each one slighty different in some way, like when they send out movies/tv shows to screeners/reviews, each one gets a slightly different copy that all look alike but each one would have one slightly altered frame so the studio knows who leaked it.

Games should be the same buying a game or other licenced software should require you register your name and address and each copy should be different that way you know who has leaked/hacked the product and they can be punished. (to really make it hurt it should be the full retail price x by the number of people who downloaded the product)

It would also create empoyment because they would need to hire people to keep track of all these records

Shiminay

...and push the price way up cause they have to pay for the infrastructure to support this and the wages of the employees who do the work...

Balfa

...and then the movie studios and game publishers will be two more groups of people with a Big Database Of Everyone.

No thanks.

Placebo

Require online registration upon installation, to play offline.
everyones got the net, if no net, get game shop to register.

Maximilian

User45701 wrote: »

The way to end piracy would be instead off mass producting games have each one slighty different in some way, like when they send out movies/tv shows to screeners/reviews, each one gets a slightly different copy that all look alike but each one would have one slightly altered frame so the studio knows who leaked it.

Games should be the same buying a game or other licenced software should require you register your name and address and each copy should be different that way you know who has leaked/hacked the product and they can be punished. (to really make it hurt it should be the full retail price x by the number of people who downloaded the product)

It would also create empoyment because they would need to hire people to keep track of all these records

"The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy."

Dinner

Placebo wrote: »

Require online registration upon installation, to play offline.
everyones got the net, if no net, get game shop to register.

You mean like Bioshock with SecuROM which did nothing but piss people off?
Oh, and it was cracked.

And no doubt when Spore and Mass Effect are released their even more ridiculous anti-piracy measures will no doubt be cracked too.

User45701

Kharn wrote: »

...and push the price way up cause they have to pay for the infrastructure to support this and the wages of the employees who do the work...

actually retails have a high margin to cover them for things, the margin they have would in most cases would be able to afford double the staff and thats not including any rebates they get from the game companes for hitting their targets

Peanut

Smellyirishman wrote: »

Personally, I hope it works. I'm doubtful that it will in the long run but piracy is slowing down an industry I love.

I don't know if it's really slowing it down... copyright infringement has always been around in one form or another, you can argue that it's easier now due to the internet and things like that, but the converse of that is that gaming is a much bigger industry now than it was 10-15 years ago.

Smellyirishman

Peanut wrote: »

I don't know if it's really slowing it down...

The PC industry most definitely is and plenty of Dev studios have cited piracy as the reason for it.

Peanut

Well it's an easy scapegoat, I don't find it very convincing though.

You could draw comparisions to the music industry, there are a myriad of reasons why sales may decrease over a given period, and copying may be one of them, but I think its effect is always overstated by publishers, and regardless there will always be a market for good content.

tramoredude

Copy Protection schemes will always be broken, because for every clever developer writing the copy protection there are 100 cleverer nerds hard at work trying to break the protection. There will never be a 100% bullet proof copy protection...

Even expensive audio editing suites like Cubase and ProTools that required a proprietery physical USB stick attached for the software to operate were cracked eventually with a program that could emulate the presence of the USB stick....

The only way to combat piracy, is to implement a worth-while online aspect.... Multiplayer games cannot be cracked as they need to connect to a server to play and dodgy serials are blacklisted (COD4 was an exception here but i dunno how the hell they messed up?! )

Steam is probably the best anti pircay system around at the minute, Steam makes it EASIER to buy the game than it is to pirate it, add great prices and the Steam Community aspect and it rocks...

Maybe stop selling hard copies And have each download specific to the customer so that they have to log in to their own copy of the game...

Or do what 3dBuzz.com do, if you buy video tutorials from them, your Name, Address and CC details are encoded into the video, I have never, EVER seen a 3dBuzz video on a torrent site... So, Buy games online, you download it, it works for 10 days, then your serial number arrives in the post, in order to continue playing, you enter your serial and you are never bothered buy online activation again..... If your serial number ends up online, you get a lawsuit.

/rant

P.s Excuse spelling, this firefox has no spellcheck?!

x in the city

hackers will just get clone copies of this so called chip and work around the code to by pass this.

nowadays hackers are quite a creative bunch and I dont think a 'special' chip would have them worrying too much.

next.......!

BeciMester

tramoredude wrote: »

So, Buy games online, you download it, it works for 10 days, then your serial number arrives in the post, in order to continue playing, you enter your serial and you are never bothered buy online activation again..... If your serial number ends up online, you get a lawsuit.

Back to the publisher having giant databases about people. Also, seeing that nowadays game makers mostly concentrate on pretty visuals/sound and neglect content/gameplay (respect to the rare exception), you'd probably beat the damn game by the time your serial arrives.

Overheal

Because you know, NOBODY would think to emulate the chip. The same way we can emulate a disk drive. Or a Games Console. Can't be done. Nope. Never. Just shoot yourselves.

RoosterIllusion

Jack Sheehan wrote: »

Uncrackable? Blu Ray anyone?

I'd broaden that to: "Uncrackable? Anything copy protection in the last 15 years anyone?"

Overheal

Yep. Even SecuROM has its holes.

Placebo wrote: »

Require online registration upon installation, to play offline.
everyones got the net, if no net, get game shop to register.

Yes, Lets just unplug and haul our 15kg gaming rigs into blanchardstown and hope it doesnt get purse-snatched by some pack of skangers.

Online Registration to play offline was exactly what SecuROM attempted to do, and despite its Cost Effective forecasts, I'm sure its been a collosal failure thanks in no small part to negative press, much less piracy.

Nehaxak

The actual final ASM code once disassembled and using a simple hex editor, will still fall victim to the pass/no pass simplistic crack method, the hardest part is actually finding that (or those) lines of code.
Regardless of encryption et all, it will matter little once the lines of code have been sniffed out.

However, it'll still be much easier in the longrun for a cracker to write an emulator for the chip itself or failing that, someone to send it off to China to be pulled apart and eventually cloned, probably improved and more than likely be cracked and popped on a USB drive then sold online for 20 dollars.

Sherifu

Gotta love the Chinese. And the Russians.