Just bought a car - already blue smoke.

ShiverinEskimo

Just picked up an 02 Saab 9-5 and pulling into my street i accelerate up my road and leave a cloud of blue smoke in my wake - 2 hours after driving it out of the garage. I took it for a drive and didn't notice a thing wrong - he's just serviced it for me since I agreed the sale but now this.

It was off a dealer with a 4 month warranty so it should be covered but at this stage I just wanna walk away with my cash back but I doubt a dealer will ever agree to that.

I'm sick, I mean physically sick.

Tails142

Did you have the handbrake on?

Could've just been something burning off if the car has been sitting up for a while.

Run_to_da_hills

Get an independant smog test on it, if it fails, ie burning oil/rings/valve seals gone bring it back. If thatl fails get a solicitors letter.

ShiverinEskimo

Tails142 wrote:

Did you have the handbrake on?

Could've just been something burning off if the car has been sitting up for a while.

It would have been sitting up for a while alright but I drove from Tallaght to Dundalk and its still happening.

Seems only to be happening when warm - did a bit of reading up and most forums I can find with similar descriptions say the turbo is on its last legs.

Going to get a good local mechanic I know to find out what's causing it and check everything else.

Such a kick to the balls to buy a lovely car and be all excited only to realise you've bought a dud.

peasant

Take it back to the dealer, that's what the warranty is for.

Don't drive it any more, a disintegrating turbo could kill the engine.

If it is only the turbo, that's a relatively easy (if expensive) fix (just bolt on a new turbocharger) ...but that's what the warranty is for.

stephenmarr

bring it back and get a refund. it might not be worth the hassle to keep it.
you never know what else could be wrong with it.

i had a problem with a subaru forester kept popping into netural when driving it had a 3month warranty.
brought it back garage said it was 1 loose bolt :rolleyes: wasnt happy with that so i told him i was bringing it to a subaru garage getting them to look at it and he would be billed with that he said my money would be ready to collect within the hour.

that told me everything he knew it would be expensive to fix.

Steve

That's nasty, sounds like the turbo's a bit sick alright.

I'd bring it back to the dealer and see what they have to say about it before spending money on an a mechanic to look at it.

Unless they specifically pointed out a defect to you as part of the sale then they have to repair, replace or refund (sale of goods act applies regardless of the warranty given).

bazz26

Lets not get ahead of ourselves yet folks.

Bring the car back to the dealer for them to inspect and see what the actual problem is and what they are going to do about it. Take it from there then.

BrianD3

Is the oil level OK? Could have been overfilled when they serviced it. I don't know if this would cause blue smoke though.

niceirishfella

Here what i would do - I's take the car back to the dealer and tell him what is wrong with the car and that you have lost confidence in the vehicle and you'd like a full refund. See what the response is.

If its not a positive one, tell him that you are covered by ‘The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980’, goods should be:
• Of merchantable quality
• As described
• Fit for its purpose
• Corresponding to sample

the car is not fit for the purpose and all of these above applies by law regardless of any warranty so you are entitled to your money back.
Be nice, but be clear and stern if need be - and dont leave without your cash back.

Steve

niceirishfella wrote: »

the car is not fit for the purpose

Sorry for being pedantic but "merchantable quality" is the one in question here not "fit for propose" - it's still a car and drives, that's it's purpose.

Anyway, how can he tell the dealer what's wrong when he doesn't know exactly what the cause is. Is looks like the turbo is faulty but it could be something else.

Steve

BrianD3 wrote: »

Is the oil level OK? Could have been overfilled when they serviced it. I don't know if this would cause blue smoke though.

I was thinking that but then thought I'd got it from watching F1.:D

niceirishfella

stevec wrote: »

Sorry for being pedantic but "merchantable quality" is the one in question here not "fit for propose" - it's still a car and drives, that's it's purpose.

Anyway, how can he tell the dealer what's wrong when he doesn't know exactly what the cause is. Is looks like the turbo is faulty but it could be something else.

hi Steve,
I listed all of the areas the act covers - sorry if had confused or overlaoaded the pedantic-ness (if this word exists):D in you.

Steve

niceirishfella wrote: »

hi Steve,
I listed all of the areas the act covers - sorry if had confused or overlaoaded the pedantic-ness (if this word exists):D in you.

soz, didn't mean to offend.:D

niceirishfella

No worries man, no worries.........

ShiverinEskimo

Aye - he's getting a phone call first thing monday morning. I'm in Dundalk and he's in Tallaght so it'll have to be driven again - prob not until next weekend the way I'm working.

I dont mind paying a local mechanic to just diagnose the situation if he can do it without too much labour. At least then I'll know the extent of the problem and be in control of the situation if he tries to bull**** me. But i'll be calling him first to see what kind of reception I get.

biggus

name the dealer here to see feedback. your not accusing him of anything yet.

old boy

ladd, a s#it load of blue smoke, take it back, park it, collect the dosh, make sure the oil level is up,before you drive, stop often, let it cool, a lot of tea or coffee, keep checking it on the way down, make sure that, THE OIL in the engine does not contain, gear oil.

ShiverinEskimo

old boy wrote: »

ladd, a s#it load of blue smoke, take it back, park it, collect the dosh, make sure the oil level is up,before you drive, stop often, let it cool, a lot of tea or coffee, keep checking it on the way down, make sure that, THE OIL in the engine does not contain, gear oil.

Its not overheating at all and when cruising there is no blue smoke whatsoever - I drove the whole way down the M50 and M1 and it was only as I pulled into my street that I noticed how bad it was and I've since tested it again and if I drive it really easy its fine - just whenever I accelerate even remotely harsh - poof...

This is why I think its the turbo.

S.I.R

blue smoke = head gasket failure.


congrats , you have a Buy & sell wreck

ShiverinEskimo

S.I.R. - Not neccessarily - head gasket failure would lead to smoke coming from a failure greasy messy engine bay. There doesn't seem to be any leakage around the engine and the blue smoke is only coming from the exhaust and only when driven with a bit of zest.

Head gasket tends to be an ongoing, constant blue smoke matter no?

Slidey

S.I.R wrote: »

blue smoke = head gasket failure.


congrats , you have a Buy & sell wreck

Good post there...not
When an engine emmits blue smoke it means it is burning oil (generally)
There are 3 main reasons for this and in a diesel a headgasket is rarely one.

1) turbo (if one is fitted), oil leak from the turbo in to exhaust and burning there or into intercooler and inlet manifold and burning in the engine.

2)Valve stem oil seals, where the seals on the vlve stems have deterioated or cracked and allow the oil that is lubricating the head to seep down past the valves and burn in the engine

3)Worn or damaged piston rings. Where the scarper ring is worn or a compression ring is damaged. Oil is left on the wall of the cylinder after burns then during combustion

To tarnish the dealer in this way is unfair. The vehicle may ahve been in stock for some time and the turbo could have failed due to this
Once contacted they may replace the turbo, no questions asked.
To the OP, i would ring them before I drove all the way there and ask them if they feel it will be alright.
I have seen turbos break up and either fall down the exhaust manifold doing damage or cause the engine to run on the oil which can be very frightening if you dont know what to do, esp if it is an automatic or in my case was a large truck with a crash box and a slipping clutch but that is another story!

ShiverinEskimo

Thanks Sideways. I've not named the garage for that reason, I've not been able to contact him yet and throughout the deal he seemed quite dead on. I'm going to see what reaction I get before I start naming and shaming.

All three possibilities you've listed are more or less what I was thinking myself and my brother-in-laws dad was a mechanic long ago and he straight away mentioned points 2 and 3.

In all these cases I imagine its a relatively easy fix and shouldn't lead to ongoing problems - would I be right to assume that?

I dont care about the cost as it is under warranty.

ShiverinEskimo

Ok - rang the garage and he was fairly sound about it all. He asked me to describe what was happening in detail. He said he'd book it in but one of his mechanics is on hols (hmm) so could take time.

I explained that I dont want to be liable for any more damage caused by driving it back down as I'm not certain its the turbo. He said to get a local mechanic to diagnose the issue and find out if its ok to drive for 100miles or so back down and offered a replacement car while its being repaired (offered, I didn't have to ask).

He even said that if it is just the turbo and not additional stuff he may order and deliver a turbo to me and send me a cheque to cover the cost of getting it done, I then asked would that still be covered under warranty if the work isn't done by him and he said yes, that he would send me a letter with the cheque confirming he agreed to have the work done locally.

TBH I couldn't have asked for a better response - apart from the mechanic on hols thing he's been more than accomodating so far. I'm still disappointed it happened so soon but as a mate said: "nice one, you're going to get a new turbo out of it".

Ferris

make sure that you keep an eye on the oil level. As the turbo wears it will use more and more oil. There have been cases of turbo's emptying the sump which will obviously, sieze the engine. Also if oil is finding its way to the cat converter it can damage this too.

Is it a petrol or diesel car? Just keep the oil level up and swap the turbo, infinately better than needing a new engine. I would say its best for him to fix the car due to warranty issues, he has to provide you with a replacement car too.

ShiverinEskimo

It is a petrol - and i checked the oil and if anything its slightly over-filled but its hard to judge with the saab because the dipstick is incorporated into the oil fill cap and to lock if you push it down and turn and it comes back up - the movement is around 1cm so not sure what the exact point is for the dip as the 1cm makes quite a diff on the distick marker.

Ferris

It should be ok, check the owners manual for the procedure for checking the oil tho to see if you're doing it right.

I had a turbo go in a VAG 1.9 diesel, started sounding like a supercharger! My mechanic said that a lot of the time people don't notice, the turbo empties the sump of oil and the engine siezes.

AsphaltRisin'

lads i've seen the turbos go very early on 4 of those around that year, and on several more at around 80/90k on cars that have been in company car fleets i was involvoed in managing at the time. good news for anyone who bought them when they were finshed up as company cars though is that they all got brand new turbos straight away

ShiverinEskimo

Local mechanics verdict:

90% sure its the Turbo packing in and that this was caused by sludge in the Sump.

Remedy:
New Turbo ~750 (Think this v. dear though)
Sump Drop and clean and new fill of fully synthetic oil
Labour for both

My local guy said he'd be charging €1500 for the work

Nasty. Rang the guy back and told him the above minus the prices. He said he's going to price a turbo and call me before 12 tomo.

Ferris

Thats not expensive for a new turbo, it was over a grand for a new one for my car.

Not your problem anyway, it needs to be fixed and paid for by the dealer.

ShiverinEskimo

He'll regret the day he bought that car after this I reckon, I only paid 9 for it and aleady he'll be shaving at least a grand off this for repairs.

There's a lot to be said about testing a car before selling it however and this should have been done prior to sale. Considering it took me one drive home (and twenty mins in my girlfriend following behind noticed the smoke but couldn't tell me) it wouldn't have taken much to find this issue.

Páid

Price the turbo at Scanveco in West Dublin. They are the main Saab importer in Ireland. Got a turbo for my Dad (02 Saab 9-5) earlier this year but I cannot remember how much it was but I remember it being very competitive.

http://www.saab.ie/main/IE/en/company.shtml

Henry Ford III

Dealer sounds to be handling this well enough tbh.

Fitting a new turbo and cleaning out a sump really isn't that hard nor labour intensive though. Check elsewhere as I feel €750 for this is pretty high.

ShiverinEskimo

I rang a crowd called Assured Performance in Walkinstown and priced it (my local fella recommended these) and it came to 580+VAT.

I must have been looking at the pre-VAT figures when I had a quick look. ~700 to 800 seems the norm.

Of course the garage will get the VAT back so its 580 for him. I'll be asking him for a copy of the receipt to show he's bought a new one and not a second-hand or refurb (if turbo refurb's exist - once they go, they go i reckon).

Ferris

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Of course the garage will get the VAT back so its 580 for him. I'll be asking him for a copy of the receipt to show he's bought a new one and not a second-hand or refurb (if turbo refurb's exist - once they go, they go i reckon).

They do exist, places in England do them but you need a new one.

ShiverinEskimo

Defo. He was to call me before lunch time today but so far no word. I'll give him til 4:30.

I'll definately be making sure its a new one. I'll be asking for the receipt.

peasant

Depending on what's gone on the turbo you don't necessarily need a new one.

The actual turbine wheels and the precision cast housing are the most expensive bits on a turbo, but they are quite durable as well.

What usually goes are the bearings and their housings/seals ...which means that the oil that should grease and cool them gets into the engine instead causing the bearings to seize/desintegrate.

As long as the turbine wheels and the shaft on which they sit are still ok and the bearing seats in the housing are unaffected, a refurbished turbo with new bearings and seals could work perfectly well for you .

Slidey

From what i have seen most car turbos do not have actual "bearings", instead the run on a bed of oil, sort of floating. Ball bearing turbos are more for high performance applictions
Turbos can often spin at speeds of over 100,000 rpm so refurbing them is a highly specailised job.
Consider 750 euro cheap, 3.0 trooper turbos for a while were 1800! Due to high failure rates the price has now come down..

Ferris

+1 Correct.

Most stock turbos run in a pressurised oil seal, thats why old dirty oil, low oil pressure and low oil temperature kill turbos very quickly. Its a good design because if the turbos are treated right the design will work indefinately.

Old oil, driving an engine hard when cold or switching off an engine after a run without letting the turbo cool is usually the killer of turbo's.

ShiverinEskimo

Especially for Saab 9-5 (2000-2002 I think) where the catalytic converter was placed too close to the oil pan so cooks the oil over time.

Supposed to change the oil every 6k miles.

S.I.R

slideways wrote: »

Good post there...not
When an engine emmits blue smoke it means it is burning oil (generally)
There are 3 main reasons for this and in a diesel a headgasket is rarely one.

1) turbo (if one is fitted), oil leak from the turbo in to exhaust and burning there or into intercooler and inlet manifold and burning in the engine.

2)Valve stem oil seals, where the seals on the vlve stems have deterioated or cracked and allow the oil that is lubricating the head to seep down past the valves and burn in the engine

3)Worn or damaged piston rings. Where the scarper ring is worn or a compression ring is damaged. Oil is left on the wall of the cylinder after burns then during combustion

To tarnish the dealer in this way is unfair. The vehicle may ahve been in stock for some time and the turbo could have failed due to this
Once contacted they may replace the turbo, no questions asked.
To the OP, i would ring them before I drove all the way there and ask them if they feel it will be alright.
I have seen turbos break up and either fall down the exhaust manifold doing damage or cause the engine to run on the oil which can be very frightening if you dont know what to do, esp if it is an automatic or in my case was a large truck with a crash box and a slipping clutch but that is another story!

i tend to keep things basic so yeah ill continue to as if i went into long winded explanations nobody here would understand me

blue smoke Yes is a primary indicator that the turbo could hasve worn seals/barings but generally 8/10 times its the headgasket...even the slightest bit and you get blue smoke...


if you have to put the foot down to get bluye smoke well then thats the turbo nackered.

if its the non turbo model the kasket has gone, its an opel omega engine... haven owned t he 9000 its the same engine till 2004 where saab built there very own Afair.

pin size leak is all you need then it warps...

opel engines are ok.... though i would reccomend asking you mechanic if this is right, havent done many 9-5's so yeah i only know from myown exp and what every saab mechanic ive ever met has told me...

Mr.Diagnostic

S.I.R wrote: »

i tend to keep things basic so yeah ill continue to as if i went into long winded explanations nobody here would understand me

blue smoke Yes is a primary indicator that the turbo could hasve worn seals/barings but generally 8/10 times its the headgasket...even the slightest bit and you get blue smoke...


if you have to put the foot down to get bluye smoke well then thats the turbo nackered.

if its the non turbo model the kasket has gone, its an opel omega engine... haven owned t he 9000 its the same engine till 2004 where saab built there very own Afair.

pin size leak is all you need then it warps...

opel engines are ok.... though i would reccomend asking you mechanic if this is right, havent done many 9-5's so yeah i only know from myown exp and what every saab mechanic ive ever met has told me...

What you posted was incorrect, as slideways pointed out. What you have posted here in response to him is equally incorrect.

Why post about how much experience you have when you have posted that you are just a few months into a panel beating apprenticeship? There is no shame in not knowing everything, or indeed much at all.

Ferris

S.I.R wrote: »

i tend to keep things basic so yeah ill continue to as if i went into long winded explanations nobody here would understand me

blue smoke Yes is a primary indicator that the turbo could hasve worn seals/barings but generally 8/10 times its the headgasket...even the slightest bit and you get blue smoke...


if you have to put the foot down to get bluye smoke well then thats the turbo nackered.

if its the non turbo model the kasket has gone, its an opel omega engine... haven owned t he 9000 its the same engine till 2004 where saab built there very own Afair.

pin size leak is all you need then it warps...

opel engines are ok.... though i would reccomend asking you mechanic if this is right, havent done many 9-5's so yeah i only know from myown exp and what every saab mechanic ive ever met has told me...

Why are you lying all the time? Try not posting if you don't know anything about a subject, like e30 bmw's, saab turbo's or old mercs. Subjects such as these don't figure highly in an 'apprentice panel beaters' workload.

I am no expert either (self trained from maintaining my own cars and reading honestjohn) but I try to post helpful comment's that are not cock and bull!

I'm thinking that a panel beater wouldn't get much time to read boards during the day either, there must be paint all over your keyboard:D!

ShiverinEskimo

Ok this just went south - he rang me back to say he's priced a refurbed turbo. I demanded a new turbo and he said not a chance - his is liable to fix it to driving standards, not provide new parts.

I then went down the road of getting my money back and he refused, says he doesn't have to refund me. I quote the sale of goods and services act and that the problem occured same day of purchase. He had the cheek to say I didn't report it for three days.

I got home at 5pm Saturday and tried calling him - he didn't answer. I rang him first thing monday morning and notified his of the issue.
He claims the car was driving fine when they had it - which can't be true because my girlfriend noticed the smoke when she literally pulled out of the garage.

Is there anyone knows whether or not I can get my cash back?

niceirishfella

He's totally worng - Put your grievance in writing to him immediately stating the sale of goods act.
He's bang out of order........

Ferris

Sorry to hear this mate, you have a few options to think about:

1. Take the refurb turbo, anything for an easy life and all.
2. Press him for a new turbo - preferred route.
3. Go legal, messy and time consuming.

If you go legal, tell him that you are doing so. Report it to SIMI (useless but why not!) and Consumer rights, get case reference numbers! You might want to get a solicitors letter to him after that if he's not playing ball.

One idea is to say to him that you have to keep driving the car in this condition, it will eventually suck the sump dry and blow the engine, leaving him with a big bill so he'd better sort it out for his own sake - do this off record!

Oh and he is liable, the car didn't blow a turbo in 3 days, ridiculous!

peasant

Personally I still think that a refurbed turbo should be ok.

I don't know about the legal side of things, if you can actually demand a new turbo ...but if it had happened to you outside of warranty you would probably consider a refurb if it was your money ...especially if you take the value of the car in relation to the price of the new turbo and fitting it.

Ferris

I refurbed a turbo and fitted it to my car and 20k later its fine, but I have heard horror stories.

It cost me £450stg for the refurbed one anyway so a new saab one is cheaper. This means that the dealer is getting it done for a lot less, not a good sign imo.

I don't see why the dealer is being so difficult about this, the new turbo is relatively cheap.

ShiverinEskimo

My head is wrecked. I've just written a giant letter that while very professional is sure to burn bridges.

I dont know what to do.

DaveM-sport

Only this fella here would take advice from SIR

<SNIP> offensive image removed (MODEDIT)

And as for the post with " Did you leave the handbrake post on"
Oh, dear....

Overlfilling an engine with oil can cause blue smoke though but when it does it means your more than likely already after doing damage to the seals anyway
I know a fella that filled up a Starlet GT turbo once up to the oil filler cap with oil. He got an almighty dose of abuse then and funnily the car still ran after he drained the oil out:eek:
Don't know how he didn't bend something

But obviously is the turbo in this case anyway as stated numerous times already since the problem is only there when the turbo is under pressure...

If he doesn't get you a new turbo, take him up on in his offer to let your local mechanic to do the work.
Then you'll be able to see is it just the seals that have failed or has the shaft worn and caused damage to the impellers and casing.
And also to inspect the condition of this "re-furbed" turbo to see if it will do the job

peasant

Warning for DaveM-sport

Stop haunting one user accross several threads and fora.

You're not making a good entrance for yourself here

One more post like this and you will be banned