RKQ meeting of Architectural Technicians

RKQ

We had an excellent meeting last night. It was a very relaxed and friendly meeting of 10 self employed individuals, in Portloaise. We travelled from a number of counties, from across the country, so we felt Portlaoise was the most central location. A lot of experiences and views were shared over three and a half hours. The debate was very enlightening and positive, as the IATGN was not on the agenda. We found two solutions to AIB problem.
I feel we have the experience, friendship and momentum to achieve our goals, for the good of our Profession. Contact the usual email address for further information. All Architectural Technicians need to get involved in getting their Profession recognised, in Ireland. We need to continue to work together to achieve progress.
It is unfortunate that the IATGN web site went off line last night also. It was a great forum for communicating to all members of the network. Their is nothing to fear from honest debate. The truth is out there!

Slig

what?

smashey

I'm aware of this happening in a few areas throughout the country but I'm not sure if this is the right place for it. I'll see what Mellor and muffler think.

muffler

I dont really understand the abbreviation of the title and Im not sure this is the right forum for this topic but I do see the need for it to be debated. In a way it is relevant to the forum but Im not convinced that this is the right place or time.

Is there another forum we can put it or is their a separate web site we can link to and redirect others to?

Deputy Dog

But you's arent professionals, an Architect is a professional, a cad technician isnt what an architect is, far from it. Im disrespecting your job, im just saying it takes or should take more than drawing and being a cad technician to consist as being described as a profession.

Perhaps, im missing somehting here?

sydthebeat

DD..... :eek:

Whos talking about Cad Technicians???

Please stay on topic.... Architectural Technicians are most dfinitely professionals....

muffler

Deputy Dog wrote: »

But you's arent professionals, an Architect is a professional, a cad technician isnt what an architect is, far from it. Im disrespecting your job, im just saying it takes or should take more than drawing and being a cad technician to consist as being described as a profession.

Perhaps, im missing somehting here?

Make a comment like that again and what you will be missing is your right to post here and thats a promise.

Dont think for 1 minute that you are going to come on here and belittle my fellow professionals. Take this as a yellow card and infraction given.

Any further nonsense like this will get you a red card.

smashey

Deputy Dog wrote: »

But you's arent professionals, an Architect is a professional, a cad technician isnt what an architect is, far from it. Im disrespecting your job, im just saying it takes or should take more than drawing and being a cad technician to consist as being described as a profession.

Perhaps, im missing somehting here?

You're missing a grasp of the English language. As muffler said, any more stupid comments like that and you won't be posting here again.

RKQ

We met as Professionals, with a wish to promote our Profession. We do not fear taking steps to regulate and improve our profession. We are eager to meet and discuss a number of issues, with like-minded people, in the hope of improving our profession. We are happy to use Cad as a design tool, in our offices. I did not mention Cad in my post. A number of us are employers. A number of us may be eligible for membership of RIAI yet a number of us would prefer to remain Technicians! We would be happy to see a Profession Oganisation in Ireland, that would represent our interests and promote our Profession. Sadly this organisation does not YET exist. We are eager to help in its formation and development. I do hope that we can have a positive and open debate on this board.

muffler

Deputy Dog wrote: »

Perhaps, im missing somehting here?

Yes - The sheriff

Slig

I am missing something here!! I am an architectural technician with absolutely NO wish to become an architect, never wanted to be one and am proud of my profession, it does annoy me that there is no professional body for arch tech and it annoys me when people with no qualification refer to themselves a architectural technicians as it annoys architects when non-qualified designers call themselves architects.

I dont think this is the proper forum however for this discussion, I think Art and Architecture is probably more appropriate as this forum should not advocate any professionals and there are probably more professionals there to debate this

Slig

Sorry Deputy Dog but you are missing something, an Architectural technician is NOT a cad technician and with a degree I think I should be able to refer to my qualification as a profession. A cad technician has a 2 week course in autocad.
Comparing a cad technician to an Architectural technician is like comparing an ambulance driver to a doctor. An Architectural technician specialises in the construction aspect of a design, making the architects concept a reality and translating the features of the design into shapes and structures that can be built, insulated, waterproofed and through design will blend into the rest of the building. Architects dont do details, in fact only a small part of an architects job is actually design, in large projects architects are the heads and lead the design team of engineers, architectural technicians etc. They need to insure that the project is on time and budget and that all problems are sent to the correct professional.

Mellor

Deputy Dog wrote: »

But you's arent professionals, an Architect is a professional, a cad technician isnt what an architect is, far from it. Im disrespecting your job, im just saying it takes or should take more than drawing and being a cad technician to consist as being described as a profession.

Perhaps, im missing somehting here?

missing something indeed.

Slig wrote: »

in large projects architects are the heads and lead the design team of engineers, architectural technicians etc. They need to insure that the project is on time and budget and that all problems are sent to the correct professional.

Just to expand on this, the person running a large job doesn't have to be an architect, some of the biggest jobs in this country were run by technicians. Some of the most senior people in the countrys biggest practices are technicians.
Just incase a layperson drifting by gets the wrong idea

sas

Mellor wrote: »

Just incase a layperson drifting by gets the wrong idea

Lay person here.

What is the difference between an architectural technician and an architect?

The more I've read this thread the more I've wondered about this. Obviously the 3rd level courses vary at some point but in what manner? Is there an apprenticeship period post college similar to accountancy?

I've also heard the term architectural technologist. How does that vary from technician or is it the same thing?

smashey

sas wrote: »

Lay person here.

What is the difference between an architectural technician and an architect?

The more I've read this thread the more I've wondered about this. Obviously the 3rd level courses vary at some point but in what manner? Is there an apprenticeship period post college similar to accountancy?

I've also heard the term architectural technologist. How does that vary from technician or is it the same thing?

I'll leave this to Mellor. My head fries at the thought of typing an explanation.

sinnerboy

Different training SAS . I'm a tekkie myself .

Architects are trained to create spaces . Tekkies are trained to enclose them .

Best sound bite / over simplification I can think of to explain

We work together in practices , but this is not always the case .

sinnerboy

3 canabals were temping in a large architectural practice

They would "have" a staff member for lunch each day .

The elder canabal said one day " careful from now on - they are getting suspicious around here . Only pick staff they won't notice missing "

Few days later on the way to the dole office the elder says " I said only staff they won't notice missing - but OH NO ! you two HAD to eat a technician" :pac::pac::pac:

Mellor

sinnerboy wrote: »

Different training SAS . I'm a tekkie myself .

Architects are trained to create spaces . Tekkies are trained to enclose them .

Best sound bite / over simplification I can think of to explain

We work together in practices , but this is not always the case .

Thats a simple enough example, which is generally the best kind

I normally go with, Architects design how a building looks, and Techies design how to build it,
Its not perfectly accurate, but its ok.

Schooby

Looked for definitions, none easily found but got random job requirments from recruitment agencies which might clarify to some extent:

Arch technician:
Strong Technical skills and a good working knowledge of current building regulations, Enthusiasm and proficiency in AutoCAD essential. 3D Graphic skills an advantage. Previous experience of working drawings / detailing on large scale projects desired

Architect:
design flair and project management experience. Ability to control and have responsibility for own cost base is required as is the need to be fully conversant with Irish planning and regulatory requirements. Excellent contract admin background, good communication skills and AutoCAD experience essential.

ardara1

Chartered Inst Arch Technologies -

Web site: http://www.ciat.org.uk/
I have the greatest respect for the organization and it's membership, top man last year was from Ireland! Quite a sizable grouping within Ireland.

muffler

Schooby wrote: »

Arch technician:
Strong Technical skills and a good working knowledge of current building regulations, Enthusiasm and proficiency in AutoCAD essential. 3D Graphic skills an advantage. Previous experience of working drawings / detailing on large scale projects desired

That would be a standard enough requirement.

Schooby wrote: »

Architect:
design flair and project management experience. Ability to control and have responsibility for own cost base is required as is the need to be fully conversant with Irish planning and regulatory requirements. Excellent contract admin background, good communication skills and AutoCAD experience essential.

And that would also be a frequent requirement for a technician from the cherry picking companies looking for a good technician.

Slig

And to simplify it further, most of the professionals on this forum asking questions on HOW to build something are Architectural Technicians/Architectural Technologists/Technical Architects/Assistant Architects/Architectural Engineers (all names for the same profession and all too much of a mouthfull when asked what you do!)

sinnerboy

correction - most of those ANSWERING questions are .... as described

Slig

sinnerboy wrote: »

correction - most of those ANSWERING questions are .... as described

And to simplify it further, most of the professionals on this forum asking questions on HOW to build something are Architectural Technicians/Architectural Technologists/Technical Architects/Assistant Architects/Architectural Engineers (all names for the same profession and all too much of a mouthfull when asked what you do!)

thats what I said

sydthebeat

slig, you said 'ASKING' instead of 'ANSWERING'... just SBs way of upping the profession....

RKQ

Now that we have accurate definitions.

1. How do we promote our Profession?
2. How do we ensure that the general public understand the definitions?
3. How should we work together to form a Irish professional organisation?
4. Should RIAI(Tech) and CIAT join together, in Ireland?

Slig

sorry, thats me dislexia showing, I focused on the wrong word.
what are the professional bodies available for an arch tech to join?

sydthebeat

Slig wrote: »

sorry, thats me dislexia showing, I focused on the wrong word.
what are the professional bodies available for an arch tech to join?

at the moment either RIAI (tech) or CIAT

both involve a lenghty process, dependant on your experience....

Mellor

ardara1 wrote: »

Chartered Inst Arch Technologies -

Web site: http://www.ciat.org.uk/
I have the greatest respect for the organization and it's membership, top man last year was from Ireland! Quite a sizable grouping within Ireland.

The CIAT are a good organisation, and thet, imo, recognaise the abilities of an Arch. Tech in greater depth than the RIAI.

RKQ wrote:

Should RIAI(Tech) and CIAT join together, in Ireland?

I think a stand alone org is need, it would be too hard to merge too pre-existing organisations. Especialy considering involves merging the irish branch of the CIAT, with the (Tech) section of the RIAI. Merging some of one with some of another is messy (


I'm sure most of you are aware that there was an irish organisation, which disbanded and members transfered to the BIAT (the CIAT pre 2006)

Mellor

Slig wrote: »

Architectural Technicians/Architectural Technologists/Technical Architects/Assistant Architects/Architectural Engineers (all names for the same profession and all too much of a mouthfull when asked what you do!)

Agreed on the mouthful, but I would say they are the same. In fact, I would say they are all different, I separate each of those into its rightful place, all 5 of them.
Some people would be offended it they were refered to by the wrong one, as some are slightly belittling.

No6

Hey RKQ, good to see you've got the ball rolling here too!! Joining the RIAI is very quick if you've attended a RIAI recognised course, DIT WIT and fromerly LIT and I believe CIT at one stage but not anymore and have 2 years post qualification experience in an RIAI practice. Otherwise you have to do the entrance exam. Joining CIAT takes a bit of time but its up to you to put the work in for your POP records, the biggest problem with CIAT here is that no colleges are recognised so you've got to do all the sections no exemptions, its just more work. CIAT is only for techs thought and i've found them very proactive sor far. In relation to the Architect vrs Technician thing, the training is different and to my mind the results depends on the individual, I've worked with very talented Architects and Technicians and also some very bad ones and all shades inbetween. The technician biggest problem as far as I can see is the lack of understanding form the outside the profession of what we actually can do, The RIAI have protected their title and fair play to them but nobody is looking after us and no one will except ourselves!! I liken it to "The Blues had a baby and called it Rock & Roll" - the Tech profession is even younger than Rock & Roll, give it time all we need is Elvis!! Shake those hip RQK!!

topcatcbr

just found this threat great work

topcatcbr

RKQ wrote: »

We had an excellent meeting last night. It was a very relaxed and friendly meeting of 10 self employed individuals, in Portloaise. We travelled from a number of counties, from across the country, so we felt Portlaoise was the most central location. A lot of experiences and views were shared over three and a half hours. The debate was very enlightening and positive, as the IATGN was not on the agenda. We found two solutions to AIB problem.
I feel we have the experience, friendship and momentum to achieve our goals, for the good of our Profession. Contact the usual email address for further information. All Architectural Technicians need to get involved in getting their Profession recognised, in Ireland. We need to continue to work together to achieve progress.
It is unfortunate that the IATGN web site went off line last night also. It was a great forum for communicating to all members of the network. Their is nothing to fear from honest debate. The truth is out there!

How did i miss this was it advertised

RKQ

The meeting was advertised on the IATGN web site, for two weeks. It came about as a result of the IATGN National Committee feeling it could not approach a bank regarding its policy change, regarding Certificates of Compliance.
A large number of Self employed individuals felt this important issue should be addressed.
We met last thursday, in Portlaoise. Our numbers continue to grow.
We welcome all interested people, including paye. We need to create a policy that will address issues as they arise. We need to be proactive.

I started this tread, to build on the positive outcome of our meeting. We felt it was important to let everyone know that we exist and want to increase in number. As self employed individuals, we have great determination and drive. We need to achieve results.

We are very interested in improving our profession and getting recognition from the Law Society, all financial istitutions and all Government Departments.

We believe in an Irish organisation being formed, like CIAT in the UK. We hope the IATGN can achieve this. We will help in any way we can but we will also do what is necessary to protect our business'.

We feel that open and constructive debate is important, unfortunately the IATGN discussion board went off line on Thursday.
You are welcome to pm for details of our next meeting.

topcatcbr

RKQ wrote: »

The meeting was advertised on the IATGN web site, for two weeks. It came about as a result of the IATGN National Committee feeling it could not approach a bank regarding its policy change, regarding Certificates of Compliance.
A large number of Self employed individuals felt this important issue should be addressed.
We met last thursday, in Portlaoise. Our numbers continue to grow.
We welcome all interested people, including paye. We need to create a policy that will address issues as they arise. We need to be proactive.

I started this tread, to build on the positive outcome of our meeting. We felt it was important to let everyone know that we exist and want to increase in number. As self employed individuals, we have great determination and drive. We need to achieve results.

We are very interested in improving our profession and getting recognition from the Law Society, all financial istitutions and all Government Departments.

We believe in an Irish organisation being formed, like CIAT in the UK. We hope the IATGN can achieve this. We will help in any way we can but we will also do what is necessary to protect our business'.

We feel that open and constructive debate is important, unfortunately the IATGN discussion board went off line on Thursday.
You are welcome to pm for details of our next meeting.

I am an arch tech living in portarlington
I check the IATGN for news only and rarly look at its discussion board as i find it is not very active. I would be interested being involved.

RKQ

Hi Topcatcbr. Welcome to our group! Drop me a line for details. All email addresses etc will be treated confidentially.
We grew from the discussion board on the IATGN site. We were referred to as the "Independent Initiative" by the National Committee.
We share the same goals as the IATGN and are members of it but our meeting was totally independent of the IATGN.
Our actions will be decided by concensus. We have no problem in taking the initiative and being proactive for the good of all.
There are many "changes" on the horizon, that affect us all. We must work together to secure our future. The definitions above are quite accurate today, this may not always be the case. We need to be recognised by the general public, as a Profession.
On a lighter note, it was great to meet as individuals, with common goals and chat about every day issues, Architecture, Technology, Planning, BER, Air tightness etc. As a group we are talented and specialist in a number of areas. Its great to be able to share our knowledge and experiences.
Boards.ie is an excellent board, very well run. There are some very interesting treads on this site.

muffler

RKQ wrote: »

Now that we have accurate definitions.

1. How do we promote our Profession?
2. How do we ensure that the general public understand the definitions?
3. How should we work together to form a Irish professional organisation?
4. Should RIAI(Tech) and CIAT join together, in Ireland?

One of the first things you should have done and should still do is discuss this with the forum mods before embarking any further on your crusade.

muffler

RKQ wrote: »

Hi Topcatcbr. Welcome to our group! Drop me a line for details. All email addresses etc will be treated confidentially.
We grew from the discussion board on the IATGN site. We were referred to as the "Independent Initiative" by the National Committee.
We share the same goals as the IATGN and are members of it but our meeting was totally independent of the IATGN.
Our actions will be decided by concensus. We have no problem in taking the initiative and being proactive for the good of all.
There are many "changes" on the horizon, that affect us all. We must work together to secure our future. The definitions above are quite accurate today, this may not always be the case. We need to be recognised by the general public, as a Profession.
On a lighter note, it was great to meet as individuals, with common goals and chat about every day issues, Architecture, Technology, Planning, BER, Air tightness etc. As a group we are talented and specialist in a number of areas. Its great to be able to share our knowledge and experiences.
Boards.ie is an excellent board, very well run. There are some very interesting treads on this site.

I cant speak for the other mods here but they will have their own say on this Im sure but Im not happy with you welcoming anyone to anything on this forum especially using a phrase like

Hi Topcatcbr. Welcome to our group! Drop me a line for details. All email addresses etc will be treated confidentially

As I said in another post you should be talking to us here and not trying to set up your own organisation through a forum of boards.ie

sinnerboy

For what it's worth I agree with muffler .
This forum ain't the place

RKQ

Sorry Muffler & Sinnerboy. I'm just trying to get a debate going. I'm not trying to set up a group. Just trying to get some interest going. Let people know whats happening and get their point of view.....

1. How do we promote our Profession?
2. How do we ensure that the general public understand the definitions?
3. How should we work together to form an Irish professional organisation?
4. Should members from RIAI(Tech) and CIAT join together, in Ireland?

How do I contact ye to discuss this tread?

sydthebeat

I think it would be a shame if someone is deliberately restricted from trying to progress our profession in a proactive and hand-on way. Yes, this forum is probably not the proper place, in theory, for this use..... but surely you could bend the rules for once. perhaps make it a sticky and direct all associate posts there?

Our profession has been in the doldrums for way too long now, and with the inception of the building control bill, and the registering of the title of architect, you will definitely see uninformed sectors make provisions for only architects to be acceptable for process..... the certification from financial institutions is only the first..... we all know how ludicrous it is at the moment when the technician compiles the FSC or DAC application, yet cannot sign off the work because the requiring body doesnt recognise us....

Perhaps we could be a bit more accommodating of what RKQ is trying to do?

muffler

PMs all the way lads.

The public will be bored otherwise.

topcatcbr

RKQ wrote: »

Sorry Muffler & Sinnerboy. I'm just trying to get a debate going. I'm not trying to set up a group. Just trying to get some interest going. Let people know whats happening and get their point of view.....

1. How do we promote our Profession?
2. How do we ensure that the general public understand the definitions?
3. How should we work together to form an Irish professional organisation?
4. Should members from RIAI(Tech) and CIAT join together, in Ireland?

How do I contact ye to discuss this tread?

Well done I think we need an independent forum (like this one) to express these issues.

I am an architectural technician and am not a member of either of RIAI(Tech) or CIAT as i do not see how either one can properly represent us. the RIAI are primarily interested in their Architect members as was evident by the work done by them in relation to the new building control act. They ensured that their architect members could sign certs of compliance but left their tech members hanging. I don't have a problem with this as they are only doing what they were set up to do and look after their architects. While the CIAT is a good organization it is based in the UK and does not recognise any Irish third level qualification for full membership. Thus a lengthy process to become a full member.
I understand that they are trying to change the building control act to allow its members to issue certs of compliance.

How do we promote our Profession
We promote our profession by doing the best job we can and upholding professional standards. Respect will follow.

Public understanding i dont know

How should we work together to form an Irish professional organisation
We should use our ties with the RIAI and CIAT as a spring board as the CIAT did during their early years

Should members from RIAI(Tech) and CIAT join together, in Ireland?
This is up to them but i believe their is allot of interest in an irish orgonization.

I think the time is now to set up an Irish organization for Irish Architectural techs to deal with Irish issues. We should however hold on to the ties with the RIAI and CIAT as they have a lot of combined expertise and experience which will prove invaluable.

Supertech

Topcatcbr - the building control act has nothing to do with Certs of Compliance ....

sydthebeat

Supertech...

the building control act can be used by financial institutions to refuse certs from non-recognised professions.... it has already happend... not directly as a result of the act, but certainly accommodated by the act....

this is a good thing.... i make no bones about it...

however technicians missed the boat with the act as to getting the profession Legally and Legitimately recognised.....
Why would a financial institution accept certs from a profession that has
a. no legal standing
b. no legal definition
c. no lobby group
d. no historical weight of argument....

Slig

Thats the part that really sickens me.
I cant sign a cert of compliance in my own right but I am the only one in our office that is capable of carrying out an inspection

sydthebeat

There goes this thread ....... :rolleyes:

No6

Lets please keep to the subject in hand , Arch tech's do have a problem in gaining recognition from institutions such as the Law Society and the Banks. This is because we are new young profession only around 40 years or so. We will hopefully have an Irish body which will represent us in the IATGN, but they are only in the process of setting themselves up and are currnetly as a group unable to assist self employed Techs. To my mind its time for us techs to get off our collective butts and stop slagging other professions because we havn't got the recognition we feel we deserve and get out there and get it ourselves.

topcatcbr

I also believe Arch Techs are the best people to issue these certs and infact are usually the people who do this work in practice and signed off by others. This does not mean that Architects & engineers are not capable of doing so also. It all depends on the individual.

Supertech

Not to labour the point - but ,the part of the act we're discussing (which deals with the registration of the Titles Architect, Building Surveyor and Quantity Surveyor) has nothing to do with Banks or Financial Institutions. It simply stops people who are not qualified in any of the professions referred to above from using those titles. It hasn't accommodated anything as yet, because not all the processes are in place for it to work fully. These processes will allow people who feel that they should be allowed to use these titles by virtue of experience and time served practicing as architects, surveyors or QS's to prove their capability. To suggest it has been used by financial institutions to limit those from whom they will accept certificates is wrong. They have used membership of professional organisations to limit those certifying, not the Building Control Act. In a sense thay have gone a step further than the Act, and demanded proof of qualification - without which no practitioner can join one of these organisations. It's a subtle difference, but important to make note of it. By the way, you are 100% correct with your final points (a,b,c,d) - I agree completely. But AT's have been here before and failed. Most can't seem to be bothered.

No6

Aggreed supertech Apthy is the enemy of AT's but we're damn good at it or perhaps we're just too busy!!