Are Diesels Worth It Anymore

aonoco

WITH THE UNCANNY INCREASE IN DIESEL PRICES AT THE PUMPS SINCE THE BUDGET, WHERE VRT WOULD BE LOWERED ON LOWER EMISSION CARS SUCH AS DIESELS, HAVE BEEN THINKING LONG AND HARD IF DIESELS ARE WORTH IT.

DO NOT GET ME WRONG PREFER DIESEL CARS TO PETROL..HAVE 1.9 TD BEST ENGINE BUT HAVE TO CHANGE THE CAR.

DECIDED TO DO A COMPARISON, 10,000 MILES A YEAR IN A 1.9 DIESEL AGAINST 1.4 LITRE PETROL. YES BIG DIFFERENCE ON POWER BUT WHEN DRIVE ON M50 OR IN TOWN DOES NOT REALLY APPLY

QUICK COMPARISON BELOW, PRICE OF FUEL AND TAX INCLUDED..SHOCKED TO SEE BASED ON AVERAGE MPG OF 42 FOR PETROL AND 50 FOR DIESEL THAT PETROL CARS ARE THAT MUCH CHEAPER OVER THE YEAR

WILL OF COURSE CHANGE FOR THOSE BUYING A NEW DIESEL AFTER 01ST JULY FOR US IN THE SECOND HAND MARKET SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT

Petrol Diesel
Car 1.4 1.9

Price Per Litre €1.26 €1.34

Average MPG 42 50

Litres Per Gallon 3.78541178

Average Miles per Litre 11.10 13.21

Price of 1 Mile (Fuel) € 0.11 € 0.10

Average Year 10,000 miles

Cost of Fuel € 1,135.62 € 1,014.49

Car Tax €343.00 €590

Total Bill Fuel and Tax Only € 1,478.62 € 1,604.49

peasant

It would be considered polite to switch your capslock off

aonoco

sorry peasant my bad eye sight

tw0nk

well in response to op, what is the best value for money, most economical, efficient petrol car?
I dont mean an annoying little smart car or a hybrd, but what is the best petrol car mpg along the lines of a 318 or A4?

E92

A gallon is ~4.5 litres IIRC. Well whatever 8 pints is in litres anyway!

Diesel is not as good for the environment as petrol, and it never has been.

It's better than petrol on ONE emission, Carbon Dioxide, the very one emission tat our new VRT system is based on, however petrol is better in almost every other area than diesel and specifically for peoples' health and air quality.

In terms of public health(risks to cancer) and clean air, diesel is nowhere even close to as good as petrol. The emissions of NOx and PM are allowed by the EU to be up to 5 times higher from diesels than from petrols. Yes I know that the petrol engine is far from perfect there either(petrol is allowed twice as high a carbon monoxide limit, but that's the only one that petrol gets an easier time in) but it is nevertheless superior to a paraffin stove.

Anyway a 1.4 petrol in say a Focus/Astra etc is only really an Irish special designed to get around our old VRT system which was ridiculously based on engine size. So performance is not going to be even close to good at all.

Guy:Incognito

aonoco wrote: »

WITH THE UNCANNY INCREASE IN DIESEL PRICES AT THE PUMPS SINCE THE BUDGET, WHERE VRT WOULD BE LOWERED ON LOWER EMISSION CARS SUCH AS DIESELS, HAVE BEEN THINKING LONG AND HARD IF DIESELS ARE WORTH IT.

Our budget has little relevance. Prices are rising everywhere.

aonoco

Good point

Best Saloon Diesels out there at present are the likes of the Jetta 62 mpg, focus 62 mpg

source http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/fuelConSearch.asp

Best Petrol out there seems to be CHEVROLET Aveo at 47.9 mpg or Bravo 1.4 at 47.1

really no comparison

just annoys me to see the price of diesel go so high over the past few months...AA have asked for an EU enquiry, petrol companies say it is supply but my understanding is petrol and diesel made from the same things..oil so why has diesel got more expensive than petrol

E92

Much and all as people might like to blame the Government, (and believe me I'd normally be the first to do so since I can't stand Fianna Fáil and despise the Greens/PDs) it is completely unfair to blame, or attempt to blame them on this occasion.

It would even be unfair to blame the fuel companies!

It is what is going on with OPEC and the ever increasing demand for diesel across Europe, and the possibility of Australia, Japan and the US starting to take a serious liking to diesel that is pushing up and will continue to push up the price of diesel.

mikemac

Miles? Gallons?
Our odometers measure kilometres (modern cars anyway) and there is not a station in Ireland that sells fuel by the gallon.
Welcome to the 21st century OP, litres/100km!

tw0nk

micmclo wrote: »

Miles? Gallons?
Our odometers measure kilometres (modern cars anyway) and there is not a station in Ireland that sells fuel by the gallon.
Welcome to the 21st century OP, litres/100km!

Thats all nice n all, but il start using those figures when the last of the mile odometer car is gone and its not better value for money to buy car in uk where they still use miles

unkel

aonoco wrote: »

Litres Per Gallon 3.78541178

This is Ireland. Whenever we (still) refer to gallons, it is to British Imperial gallons. Not US American gallons

A British gallon is 4.544 litres...

E92

This is Ireland not continental Europe and in Ireland we use mpg, like it or lump it.

I don't know what litres per 100 km are, besides which my cars are calibrated in shock horror miles and worse still:rolleyes: is that one of them has an instantaneous fuel consumption meter that measures my fuel consumption in.... miles per gallon(the M50TÜB20 engined E34). The other car has a trip computer and guess what it uses mpg too(B4184SM Volvo).

Even my old man's car which has a km/h speedo told me today it was averaging 35 MPG. Imagine, the "cheek" of a modern car with a km/h speedo to be able to display mpg:eek:! What is the world coming to:rolleyes:?

Most metric cars with trip computers can have their odometers and trip computers switched over to miles at the touch of a button, so I don't see what is so bad about continuing to use miles, apart from the fact that the PC brigade want us to do so and to make us "look good" in front of our European neighbours?

If we really want to impress our European neighbours how about we try and make some effort to learn one of the languages they speak rather than PC symbolic gestures, you'd never know they might just appreciate our efforts to try and speak their language:rolleyes:.

mikemac

PC brigade? I've been called a lot of things on boards but never been called that.
Look at Post 11 and now posters are debating the difference between 3.78541178 and 4.544 .
It's a messy system and even you can agree with that!

And ease up on us young folk, I didn't even know there was two different types on gallons before reading this thread, not my fault they stopped teaching miles and gallons in school 20 years ago. But people still use them??

This is badly offtopic, sorry OP. Motor forum is for motor enthuasists and motorists and if mpg is the standard in Ireland then that's fine with me. In 20 years time it won't be though

peasant

E92 wrote: »

Most metric cars with trip computers can have their odometers and trip computers switched over to miles at the touch of a button, so I don't see what is so bad about continuing to use miles.

Because it is slightly more difficult to get the pump to display gallons maybe ?:D

anyway ...back on topic:

For me personally diesel still makes a lot of sense as my yoke uses 9l/100 km on the typical short run to work whereas the equivalent petrol model wouldn't do it under 12 liters (bit of a drinker)

My point being ...depends very much if you got your mind set on a certain type/size of car

E92

Hey I'm young too(under 25, if that's counts as young:D) and if I start talking about car x being able to do 0-100 to my friends they think I mean MPH rather than km/h.

I remember not that long ago telling a bunch of 15-16 year olds that a Veyron could top 400 km/h, and they said 400 what? When I said it does 250+ mph they knew what that was alright though. I know lots of people and I don't know one person who freely refers to things in metric rather than old fashioned. My parents talk about buying pounds of sausages and a room being x feet long, and they might be many things, but they're not old fashioned. When it comes to cars I don't know anyone who uses km/h rather than mph, even for speed limits, be they young and definately those who are not so young.

If we're not au fait with the metric system then who is:D?

peasant

old continental farts like me

Oilrig

I thought we were talking about petrol vs diesel...

Talk about attention deficit... stay off the sugar

peasant

Oilrig wrote: »

I thought we were talking about petrol vs diesel...

Talk about attention deficit... stay off the sugar

the man is right ...back on topic ...shoo

LadyTBolt

The price of fuel has risen almost 30% since the beginning of the year and according to economists reports today fuel prices will be up another 30% by the end of the year. I know if it was a choice of petrol or diesel for me I'd choose petrol.

peasant

Even when diesel was still cheaper than petrol, due to the higher initial cost of the engine, diesel only ever made sense over a certain annual mileage.

The issue gets watered down a bit when you're buying second hand, older cars, but even then diesels usually command higher prices for whatever (perceived) reasons.

I'd say if anyone is looking to buy now, they'd do well to seriously consider a petrol car and do their maths thoroughly.

bbam

Surely it depends on the situation... Last time I purchased a motor I had an XL spreadsheet work out the cost of particular cars at varying yearly milage. (real anorac stuff)
A 1.6 petrol would be cheaper up to about 18K miles and then the diesel came into its own. I do 25-30K per year so I feel diesel is worth it..
I reckon now the limit must be about 20-22K

Also... I learned to drive at age 9 in a 2.1TD and bar one car I've been driving diesel.... I'll be hard to convert at this stage.;)

E92

Yeah but you grew up with it.

This whole thing is far too advanced for mere simpletons like me!

(oh, the irony of what I just said)

Anyway, back on topic, I wouldn't go for a smaller petrol over a larger diesel engine unless I wasn't losing any power. Power is power, whether it's petrol or a paraffin stove.

What's really interesting is that by 2020, a new study in Germany reckons that only 30% of new cars sold in Germany will be diesel, compared to 49% last year. JHMEG will be delighted to hear that 15% of sales are expected to be hybrids:p!

Actually diesel sales have slipped back in Germany, they're down to 47.2% this year compared to 49.4% last year.

Run_to_da_hills

micmclo wrote: »

Miles? Gallons?
Our odometers measure kilometres (modern cars anyway) and there is not a station in Ireland that sells fuel by the gallon.
Welcome to the 21st century OP, litres/100km!

I still think in gallons, my van and bikes have mph, I still measure in inches and weigh myself in stones and LBS, why should we submit to these Common Market bureaucrats are have being trying to force us on a stupid and confusing metric system that has ripped us all off for decades. Imperial is still widely used in Ireland, the UK and the USA.

Oilrig

Whats confusing about the Metric system?

At least you can use a calculator to solve it... try that with Ounces, Pounds & Stones...

The US have been trying to convert to Metric for 40 years...

vectra

aonoco wrote: »

Good point

Best Saloon Diesels out there at present are the likes of the Jetta 62 mpg, focus 62 mpg

Best Petrol out there seems to be CHEVROLET Aveo at 47.9 mpg or Bravo 1.4 at 47.1

I would like to see those figures in reality :rolleyes:

I drive a New SEAT Cordoba 1.4tdi and was told of averaging 60mpg.before I bought it.
They must be leaving roll down hills and getting towed around the country.
I Filled my one last week and had 430 Kilometers on the clock today. I put another €36 to fill her back up.
That was mix of town driving and One trip from Cork to Bunratty and not pushing it too hard. In fact i stuck to the 100 kPH limit.
Anyone car to work that out in mpg ?
I paid €1.34 today for the diesel.

Now on saying that.
My last car was a Mondeo 1.8 zetec and I do not put up big miles.
I was putting minimum of €25 a week into the Mondeo.
I now normally top up every 2 weeks or maybe near 3 weeks. Averages between €25 & €30 to fill.
basically 1/3 of the running cost of the Petrol car and Dead pleased with the power of the 1.4tdi
Even with the current cost of fuel i will deffo be buying another diesel when the time comes

HJL

Stekelly wrote: »

Our budget has little relevance. Prices are rising everywhere.

+1

140.9 in Dry Arch filling station, Letterkenny, Co. Donegal this evening,
that much be one of the most expensive in the country now?

Older diesel cars with veg oil in them is the future. The fuel prices just keep going up and up every week. And people are so used to it they dont really say anything, but somewhere down the line there is going to be up roar about it. Its likely to be €2 a litre before 2008 is out.

I cant wait till the bloody ice caps melt. Ill row my way to work for free!

bbam

vectra wrote: »

I would like to see those figures in reality :rolleyes:

I drive a New SEAT Cordoba 1.4tdi and was told of averaging 60mpg.
They must be leaving roll down hills and getting towed around the country.
I Filled my one last week and had 430 Kilometers on the clock today. I put another €36 to fill her back up.
That was mix of town driving and One trip from Cork to Bunratty and not pushing it too hard. In fact i stuck to the 100 kPH limit.
Anyone car to work that out in mpg ?
I paid €1.34 today for the diesel.

Just less than 45 MPG ???
My 99 passat with 170K miles is doing 43... down from 52+, loan's been paid for the last 5 years so it feels like free motoring and I try not to worry about the cost of fuel..

vectra

bbam wrote: »

Just less than 45 MPG ???
.

Thats my point.
I would love to see the Jetta and the Chevvy do those miles quoted :cool:

biggus

Used an 04 prius for a while and the best i got Dub to wexford was 73mpg for the 80 miles (not instantaneous) this was during N11 roadworks.
Normally 48 mpg around town and 55 on long journeys without trying.
Was the better halfs car so any attempts by me to go for really good MPG were undone when I wasn't driving.
See http://priuschat.com/forums/ see how these yolks have turned america upside down. Guys there developed pulse and glide driving techniques and some are approaching 100mpg unmodified.
Don't knock a prius til you try one. Quite quick too and automatic to boot.

kluivert

Read the Irish Times this morning.

In short, it says they reckon China is stock piling diesel for the Olypmics.

US output is running low.

Its the start of the winter season in the south hemi, where some countries like South Africa have an energy shortage.

Indsutrialising countries are putting a greater demand on diesel.

China per person uses the same amount of oil as Amercia did in 1905 :eek:

What will they be using in 50 years time.

There is a call in the UK for the government there to lower duty on fuel as prices go up so is the vat intake from sales, so the two should cancell each other out, I think this is a good idea.

LadyTBolt

We can complain about increasing prices as much as we like but this time was going to come eventually. They aren't called non-renewable resources for nothing. It's just a pity this is happening in our lifetime.

Anyway, I'm off to buy a bicycle before they start going up in price too! Better still, a horse and cart would be more suitable....

JHMEG

biggus wrote: »

Guys there developed pulse and glide driving techniques and some are approaching 100mpg unmodified.

Was actually some Japanese guys that developed P&G and they're able to get close to 120mpg.

Something else that came to my attention recently which is growing in popularity in the US is what they call Hypermiling. This site has some excellent articles, including getting 103mpg from a Diesel Civic by hypermiling.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/cmps_index.php

Cyrus

biggus wrote: »

Used an 04 prius for a while and the best i got Dub to wexford was 73mpg for the 80 miles (not instantaneous) this was during N11 roadworks.
Normally 48 mpg around town and 55 on long journeys without trying.
Was the better halfs car so any attempts by me to go for really good MPG were undone when I wasn't driving.
See http://priuschat.com/forums/ see how these yolks have turned america upside down. Guys there developed pulse and glide driving techniques and some are approaching 100mpg unmodified.
Don't knock a prius til you try one. Quite quick too and automatic to boot.

those guys are a danger on the road from what ive seen

and a prius is quick, cmon

the prius has to be the biggest scam yet, hybrid that pollutes so much in the making as to make it a bigger polluter than most other cars and an ED bmw 520d is a more efficent, nicer looking, better driving, better everything car

Stevie Dakota

I am sure that increasing diesel prices will erode some of the appeal, but diesel is NOT just about economy. The performance is so much more usable due to the higher torque, combined with relaxed cruising and good economy for me it is a win win.

E92

The performance of diesels is great... until you hit about 3-3,500 rpm and then they lose the will to live and perform.

They give people the mistaken impression that they are faster than petrols, when in fact they're not, and if you really push them you'll find that they've nothing to give, while a petrol has plenty of performance to offer if you take them into the upper half of the rev counter.

Most petrol engines in the future will be turbocharged, and will have all that torque at lovely low revs that all the dieselheads love, while direct injection petrol engines can make great strides on diesel economy, further eroding diesel's appeal.

Cyrus

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

I am sure that increasing diesel prices will erode some of the appeal, but diesel is NOT just about economy. The performance is so much more usable due to the higher torque, combined with relaxed cruising and good economy for me it is a win win.

they 'feel' faster

they arent faster tho

and how can the noise of a diesel = relaxed cruising?

With the price increases soon there will be no reasons left to drive a diesel.

They are noisey, smokey and boring to drive. Give me a good petrol engine anyday of the week.
You can take my 6 pot from my cold dead hands

Stevie Dakota

Cyrus wrote: »

they 'feel' faster

they arent faster tho

and how can the noise of a diesel = relaxed cruising?

Have you driven a modern diesel? The wifes Megane is whisper quite at 120kph loping along in 6th gear.

I would argue they are faster when it matters, overtaking, no need to change down, just foot down and off you go.

E92

ronoc wrote: »

You can't take my 6 pot from my cold dead hands

+1,000.

6 cylinder petrols ftw everyone:D! They're a world apart from boring old 4 cylinders, they have the smoothness, joie de vivre and noise that 4 cylinder engines just simply don't.

I never intend on going back to 4 cylinders, not if I can help it at the very least!

Cyrus

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

Have you driven a modern diesel? The wifes Megane is whisper quite at 120kph loping along in 6th gear.

I would argue they are faster when it matters, overtaking, no need to change down, just foot down and off you go.

yep my old man has a new 520d, id imagine its a more refined car than the megane? i hate it

craichoe

E92 wrote: »

This is Ireland not continental Europe and in Ireland we use mpg, like it or lump it.

I don't know what litres per 100 km are, besides which my cars are calibrated in shock horror miles and worse still:rolleyes: is that one of them has an instantaneous fuel consumption meter that measures my fuel consumption in.... miles per gallon(the M50TÜB20 engined E34). The other car has a trip computer and guess what it uses mpg too(B4184SM Volvo).

Even my old man's car which has a km/h speedo told me today it was averaging 35 MPG. Imagine, the "cheek" of a modern car with a km/h speedo to be able to display mpg:eek:! What is the world coming to:rolleyes:?

Most metric cars with trip computers can have their odometers and trip computers switched over to miles at the touch of a button, so I don't see what is so bad about continuing to use miles, apart from the fact that the PC brigade want us to do so and to make us "look good" in front of our European neighbours?

If we really want to impress our European neighbours how about we try and make some effort to learn one of the languages they speak rather than PC symbolic gestures, you'd never know they might just appreciate our efforts to try and speak their language:rolleyes:.

OT but ..

We did.. its called English .. pity we lost our own language though.

And the french don't speak German or Dutch, the belgians speak french and dutch as an example. But the universal language for business is .. sad to say .. English.

vectra

E92 wrote: »

Most petrol engines in the future will be turbocharged, and will have all that torque at lovely low revs that all the dieselheads love, while direct injection petrol engines can make great strides on diesel economy, further eroding diesel's appeal.

So,
You are saying that a 1.4 TSI SEAT Leon Petrol would be as economical or near as economical as my SEAT Cordoba 1.4 tdi S when I do most of my driving in short journeys ?:rolleyes:

Zube

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

I would argue they are faster when it matters, overtaking, no need to change down, just foot down and off you go.

It's a question of driving style. Some years ago we changed from a 150 bhp Alfa 16V to a 115 bhp diesel. The wife didn't really find the diesel slower, because at low revs the diesel had more torque, and that suits her driving style.

I noticed a big difference, since I would wring the Alfa's neck up around 6-7000 rpm, and that's where the power was.

Marcus.Aurelius

I could never go back to diesel. I bought a Lexus GS300, and couldn't be happier. 6 cylinder in-line. (I6). Smooth as silk, no vibrations. Straight sixes are the optimum design for perfect balance.

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I6

Smoother than V6, and longer life too!

vectra

Zube wrote: »

I noticed a big difference, since I would wring the Alfa's neck up around 6-7000 rpm, and that's where the power was.

Yes,
We would all have noticed the difference when we were young and careless where Speed limits were something that never entered our heads. Same as other road users were non existant and didnt matter if we killed or maimed a few of them on our way.:o

Exactly what speed would you be doing at 6 ~ 7K revs
OH
And what would the consumption be like on the Alfa Petrol Guzzler at that limit :rolleyes:

Stevie Dakota

This is pointless, the whole petrol V diesel thing, they are different animals. At home we have a Renault 1.5 diesel 4 pot and 2 litre straight six BMW, they are both fantastic engines, yet totally different in their power delivery. The BMW loves being revved and is as smooth as silk, but the Renault is more relaxed when hustled, no need to drop two gears and redline it to make swift progress.

We always have a dilemma when driving cross country, the BMW is more comfy, but the Renault is thoroughly effortless, fast and economical with it.

JHMEG

maoleary wrote: »

I could never go back to diesel. I bought a Lexus GS300, and couldn't be happier. 6 cylinder in-line. (I6). Smooth as silk, no vibrations. Straight sixes are the optimum design for perfect balance.

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I6

Smoother than V6, and longer life too!

That is all true. I6 is perfectly balanced.

However balance is not what I look for, at all, ever. There are sooo many more important things in an engine.

quarryman

ronoc wrote: »

You can take my 6 pot from my cold dead hands

+ 1000000

Zube

vectra wrote: »

Exactly what speed would you be doing at 6 ~ 7K revs

Peak power was at 6400 rpm which was about 90 mph in 3rd, if I recall correctly. The tachometer was shaded red from 6000 to the redline at 8000, and the manual said "Do not drive for long periods with the needle in this zone".

And what would the consumption be like on the Alfa Petrol Guzzler at that limit :rolleyes:

It used to average mpg in the low 30s, so probably 25 with me driving. Fuel was a minor cost compared to depreciation on that machine.

Biro

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

2 litre straight six BMW, .

Do you mean a 2.2? What age is the beemer?

Stevie Dakota

Biro wrote: »

Do you mean a 2.2? What age is the beemer?

Nope 2.0, last of the E34's.