If you don't believe in a religion/god, will you go to hell?

Fighting Irish · 22-05-2008 1:50am #1

Just wondering cos if its true then most animals/insects etc are fooked

Or can you get into heaven if you don't believe in religion/god?

Serious question, so serious answer please.

Thanks

PDN · 22-05-2008 5:36am

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Just wondering cos if its true then most animals/insects etc are fooked

Or can you get into heaven if you don't believe in religion/god?

Serious question, so serious answer please.

Thanks

No, Christians do not believe that animals will go to hell. This is because we do not believe that animals have the moral awareness to commit sin.

Incidentally, we don't believe that trees or daffodils go to hell either, even though they don't believe in God.

all the stars · 22-05-2008 7:32am

Really i dont think you can go somewhere you dont believe in.
Its like saying will i end up in Never-never land. If you dont believe it how would you? I'm not trying to make light of your question,
but why are you asking?
Are you religious in some shape or form?

PDN · 22-05-2008 7:38am

all the stars wrote: »

Really i dont think you can go somewhere you dont believe in.
Its like saying will i end up in Never-never land. If you dont believe it how would you? I'm not trying to make light of your question,
but why are you asking?
Are you religious in some shape or form?

So if I choose not to believe in Mountjoy Prison would that mean that I can never go there?

kelly1 · 22-05-2008 8:04am

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Just wondering cos if its true then most animals/insects etc are fooked

Or can you get into heaven if you don't believe in religion/god?

Serious question, so serious answer please.

Thanks

Animals and plants don't have immortal souls so when an animal or plant is dead, it's dead with only the molecules remaining, no life.

The bible clearly says that unbelievers are condemned:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

And believing here, means believing in the saving power of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

all the stars wrote: »

Really i dont think you can go somewhere you dont believe in.
Its like saying will i end up in Never-never land. If you dont believe it how would you? I'm not trying to make light of your question,
but why are you asking?
Are you religious in some shape or form?

With respect, that's a silly statement. How does not believing in something/some place make it not exist?
The reality of things and places doesn't depend on your belief in them.

God bless,
Noel.

all the stars · 22-05-2008 8:09am

PDN wrote: »

So if I choose not to believe in Mountjoy Prison would that mean that I can never go there?

i was actually being realistic.
Mountjoy prison is somewhere you can see, feel, touch, look at & even ask for reviews if you want....
Have you been to heaven?seen it? touched it? got reviews?
Know anybody who was there lately and returned - as in know someone personally and had a conversation with them in person?- (not Jesus type of thing coz he died a long time ago and you have'nt met him in the flesh im sure)..

all the stars · 22-05-2008 8:13am

kelly1 wrote: »

The bible clearly says that unbelievers are condemned:

well, when you can actually prove that one....

kelly1 wrote: »

With respect, that's a silly statement. How does not believing in something/some place make it not exist?
The reality of things and places doesn't depend on your belief in them.

Really? Hell isn't in my book. Neither is Satan. He's part of ye're experience on this earth not mine.... ye can keep your supreme evil entity, i dont feel i'm lacking anything by not believing in all that..

PDN · 22-05-2008 8:37am

all the stars wrote: »

i was actually being realistic.
Mountjoy prison is somewhere you can see, feel, touch, look at & even ask for reviews if you want....
Have you been to heaven?seen it? touched it? got reviews?
Know anybody who was there lately and returned - as in know someone personally and had a conversation with them in person?- (not Jesus type of thing coz he died a long time ago and you have'nt met him in the flesh im sure)..

But that is not what you said. You said, "Really i dont think you can go somewhere you dont believe in' which is quite plainly untrue.

So are you now arguing that it is impossible to go somewhere unless you have had a conversation in person with someone who has been there?

You sound awfully muddled.

all the stars · 22-05-2008 9:06am

PDN wrote: »

But that is not what you said. You said, "Really i dont think you can go somewhere you dont believe in' which is quite plainly untrue.

you know what, im saying to the OP dont worry too much.
Why i get an infraction for saying " when you can prove that one"
i dont understand - as ye have me condemned to hell ... and ye cant prove thats actually going to happen.
I get that ye dont like anybody questionning your beliefs but clearly the OP is divided.
So rather than say "yes unless you continue to believe in god and fear his wrath or go to hell" i'm saying well, If it's not real to you you dont have to worry.

So, clearly any opinion other than the one ye share is not welcome even though the OP wanted serious answers not just saying "Yes your goin to Hell" but differant views on this topic so he/she could make up their own mind (heavens forbid)

You are the one who asked about Mountyjoy not being real, so clearly you weren't being serious - Its a physical place which heaven/ or whatever is nt. If heaven was a physical place everyone could see, this conversation would not be had.

PDN wrote: »

So are you now arguing that it is impossible to go somewhere unless you have had a conversation in person with someone who has been there?
You sound awfully muddled.

Im not muddled, your just taking your own interpritation of my words (which is fine - no problem on my side)

i simply asked if you have spoken to someone who has been in Heaven... It was part of my point (although clearly it seems to have been misunderstood)being that its not a physical place.
like Mountjooy - as you mentioned - which is made from concrete.

im sure by now, being that im conflicting with your opinion i shall be outed ...

PDN · 22-05-2008 9:17am

all the stars wrote: »

you know what, im saying to the OP dont worry too much.
Why i get an infraction for saying " when you can prove that one"
i dont understand - as ye have me condemned to hell ... and ye cant prove thats actually going to happen.
I get that ye dont like anybody questionning your beliefs but clearly the OP is divided.

We are perfectly happy for people to question our beliefs. You can question all you like, but you are not free to troll. If you have problems with your infraction you can PM me or take it to feedback. Arguing it here in the thread will earn you a ban if you keep it up.

The OP asked a question in the Christianity forum. Therefore Christians are entitled to explain Christian beliefs in accordance with the charter. Non-Christians are entitled to question Christian belief and to present logical arguments why they disagree with the Christian beliefs. What I have asked you and other trolls not to do is simply to say stuff like, "Well I don't believe in the Bible so there!"

im sure by now, being that im conflicting with your opinion i shall be outed ...

I'm not sure how I can 'out' you since I don't know your real identity. If you are referring to your sexuality I can assure you that I'm really not interested in whether you are gay or straight.

You are free to conflict with my opinion as much as you like. Just try to use a bit of logic - and if your logic is as poor as it has been so far in this thread then, like any other poster, I have the right to point out that fact.

all the stars · 22-05-2008 9:29am

PDN wrote: »

I'm not sure how I can 'out' you since I don't know your real identity. If you are referring to your sexuality I can assure you that I'm really not interested in whether you are gay or straight.

I meant throw me out... that you would throw me out as you dont like what i have said... i think everyone is entitled to their opinion, im not trolling just dis-agree with what ye are saying and trying to give a bit more balance to the discussion,, .

PDN wrote: »

You are free to conflict with my opinion as much as you like. Just try to use a bit of logic - and if your logic is as poor as it has been so far in this thread then, like any other poster, I have the right to point out that fact.

i am using my logic... however, i feel that you were not when you asked a very silly question about Mountjoy being real or not when its plain it is infact very real, with guests and all you can talk too... i simply was asking if you have the same experience with guests in Heaven and you chose to ignore what i asked and suit yourself with the reply.

I am using Logic, it just seems you dont like what im saying end of story.
I'm saying i dont think you cant go somewhere (not a physical place) that you dont believe in.. and you cannot dis-prove that. Nor can you prove it. Same with most religions.

So, apolagies you felt i was trolling, consider it noted.

JimiTime · 22-05-2008 9:53am

all the stars wrote: »

I am using Logic, it just seems you dont like what im saying end of story.
I'm saying i dont think you cant go somewhere (not a physical place) that you dont believe in.. and you cannot dis-prove that. Nor can you prove it. Same with most religions.

So, apolagies you felt i was trolling, consider it noted.

I don't want to irritate you further as i think you genuinely believe in your point. But it is nonsense. 'If' somewhere does exist, not believing in it, makes no difference. You can assert that it doesn't exist, but if it does, then your assertion means nothing. I personally don't think you're trolling, but your point is silly.

judas101 · 22-05-2008 9:56am

PDN wrote: »

So if I choose not to believe in Mountjoy Prison would that mean that I can never go there?

In all fairness there's more proof mountjoy exists than heaven.

i'm sure you'd agree?

PDN · 22-05-2008 10:04am

judas101 wrote: »

In all fairness there's more proof mountjoy exists than heaven.

i'm sure you'd agree?

In all fairness I would certainly agree that there is more proof for Mountjoy's existence. That is exactly why I chose it as an example. It is a form of argument known as reductio ad absurdum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Basically you take someone's argument (eg 'it is impossible to go to somewhere you don't believe in') and show how that argument can be used to reach an obviously absurd conclusion (eg 'If I don't believe in Mountjoy then I can't go there'). Therefore you have proven the original argument to be illogical.

bus77 · 22-05-2008 10:04am

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Or can you get into heaven if you don't believe in religion/god?

Serious question, so serious answer please.

Thanks

Well, when people are dieing they sometimes people report seeing a light, a door open for them. Maybe that's what we all get at the end, or the beginning.

judas101 · 22-05-2008 10:07am

PDN wrote: »

In all fairness I would certainly agree that there is more proof for Mountjoy's existence. That is exactly why I chose it as an example. It is a form of argument known as reductio ad absurdum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Basically you take someone's argument (eg 'it is impossible to go to somewhere you don't believe in') and show how that argument can be used to reach an obviously absurd conclusion (eg 'If I don't believe in Mountjoy then I can't go there'). Therefore you have proven the original argument to be illogical.

and is there any similar funny logic that proves the existance of heaven?

didnt think so.

PDN · 22-05-2008 10:10am

judas101 wrote: »

and is there any similar funny logic that proves the existance of heaven?

didnt think so.

No, I don't think anyone here has claimed that heaven is logically proven. So your point is?

all the stars · 22-05-2008 10:11am

JimiTime wrote: »

I don't want to irritate you further as i think you genuinely believe in your point. But it is nonsense. 'If' somewhere does exist, not believing in it, makes no difference. You can assert that it doesn't exist, but if it does, then your assertion means nothing. I personally don't think you're trolling, but your point is silly.

good lord im gettin ganged up on..
so hopefully me pointing this out as my beliefs wont land me in further hot water.
I dont believe in god. At least not the christian God as ye know him.

I do not believe in Satan.

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell as you know them.

I dont believe im going there. (either of them as you know them)

My beliefs are clearly quite differant from yours therefore i dont expect you to understand them, However as i was raised catholic and attended catholic schools i do understand yours. I just choose to believe it is irrelevant to me and my life and have changed my opinions completely on religion based on what i have experienced in my own life..

I have encountered too many things that contradict the bible's teachings - i disagree with much of its content and i am perfectly entitled to do so without getting attacked by anybody...

bus77 · 22-05-2008 10:16am

Bluddy hell, the OP was asking about Flowers as well as anything else.

"Really I don't think you can go somewhere you don't believe in''

judas101 · 22-05-2008 10:16am

PDN wrote: »

No, I don't think anyone here has claimed that heaven is logically proven. So your point is?

how can anyone believe in anything that hasnt been proven, or at least a shred of evidence to back up?

this goes for all religions. i just can't fathom it.

its a shame to see so many intelligent people bogged down in religion. look at all the trouble it caused.

of course, i'd love to think that there's a wonderful place you go after you die where i could see my family and friends. but it just doesnt make sense to me.
when you die, it's just like when before you were born. its over.

this isnt a troll, granted this is my first time posting on this forum, and i do fully expect a flaming.

iUseVi · 22-05-2008 10:44am

Originally Posted by PDN
In all fairness I would certainly agree that there is more proof for Mountjoy's existence. That is exactly why I chose it as an example. It is a form of argument known as reductio ad absurdum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Basically you take someone's argument (eg 'it is impossible to go to somewhere you don't believe in') and show how that argument can be used to reach an obviously absurd conclusion (eg 'If I don't believe in Mountjoy then I can't go there'). Therefore you have proven the original argument to be illogical.

Free free to use reductio ad absurdum in this case, but you will have to admit to not believing in Mountjoy, or finding someone who doesn't, to make it work.

Besides, the OP obviously didn't mean real places, for which evidence can be produced.

I know your the resident mod and and I'll probably get an infraction, but someone has to tell you - stop flaming! You and I know full well what the OP meant. Yeah maybe you think the threads a bit silly, but the OP was being sincere. If you can't answer posts without your emotions taking over, may I suggest that you just ignore the thread.;)

Ok, I may be off for a short holiday...

robindch · 22-05-2008 10:55am

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Or can you get into heaven if you don't believe in religion/god?

Depends on the variation believed by the believer you ask.

Some say that you only have to believe that one or more propositions are true in order for you to stay alive after you die. Others say that you have do various things too. Most say that there are endless punishments available for people who believe the wrong thing, but it seems that fewer religions say that there are endless punishments available if you do the wrong thing.

This asymmetric emphasis upon belief rather than physical effort seems to be one of religion's more interesting evolutionary adaptions.

AtomicHorror · 22-05-2008 12:21pm

robindch wrote: »

This asymmetric emphasis upon belief rather than physical effort seems to be one of religion's more interesting evolutionary adaptions.

It allows the justification or forgiveness of all actions assuming you're really sorry afterwards. Not forgiveness legally speaking of course, but spiritually.

I don't really need this, since I don't believe in an objective moral axis or time travel.

JimiTime · 22-05-2008 12:28pm

I cannot believe that people are arguing here:D:confused: The point is ridiculous.

AllTheStars. What your beliefs are are irrelevant to your point. If Valhalla actually exists, whether I believe in it or not makes no odds. If heaven exists, my belief/non-belief makes no odds. If leprachauns exist, my belief/non-belief makes no odds. You see the point thats being made? You believing/not believing in something has absolutely no bearing on it. If it exists, you can believe it doesn't all you want, its not going to change anything. Thats why PDN's point was made. It vividly portrayed the nonsense of the point.

seamus · 22-05-2008 12:32pm

Animals and plants would be devoid of original sin, and therefore devoid of concupiscence, which implies that all thing being equal, they will go to heaven when they die.

faceman · 22-05-2008 12:38pm

all the stars wrote: »

good lord im gettin ganged up on..
so hopefully me pointing this out as my beliefs wont land me in further hot water.
I dont believe in god. At least not the christian God as ye know him.

I do not believe in Satan.

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell as you know them.

I dont believe im going there. (either of them as you know them)

My beliefs are clearly quite differant from yours therefore i dont expect you to understand them, However as i was raised catholic and attended catholic schools i do understand yours. I just choose to believe it is irrelevant to me and my life and have changed my opinions completely on religion based on what i have experienced in my own life..

I have encountered too many things that contradict the bible's teachings - i disagree with much of its content and i am perfectly entitled to do so without getting attacked by anybody...

What you believe in here is clearly irrelevent. Your oppressing view is ignorant and disrespectful. You are not offering any point for discussion.

Btw I wouldnt base my belief in any religion on what i learnt in school.

judas101 wrote: »

how can anyone believe in anything that hasnt been proven, or at least a shred of evidence to back up?

this goes for all religions. i just can't fathom it.

Obviously you havent read beyond what was in the religion books in school, with respect. Your comment is a mass generalisation. The best example is Islam and the Koran. There are 3 scientific facts/truths that were bestowed upon people at the time that was their God's proof he existed.

The Christian faith is built on faith, and man's interpretation of the Bible. There are passages from the Dead Sea scrolls which did not make it into the Bible unfortunately. however if you follow the apparitions of the 20th century in Fatima and Medujorgore [sic], regardless of your faith its quite interesting. There is a physical sign from Catholic God on the way.

wrote:

its a shame to see so many intelligent people bogged down in religion. look at all the trouble it caused.

With respect, codology. Religion hasnt caused the trouble, people have. Religion has brought hope to billions of people around the world. So whether you believe in anything or not, dont take that away from others.

AtomicHorror · 22-05-2008 12:38pm

JimiTime wrote: »

I cannot believe that people are arguing here:D:confused: The point is ridiculous.

AllTheStars. What your beliefs are are irrelevant to your point. If Valhalla actually exists, whether I believe in it or not makes no odds. If heaven exists, my belief/non-belief makes no odds. If leprachauns exist, my belief/non-belief makes no odds. You see the point thats being made? You believing/not believing in something has absolutely no bearing on it. If it exists, you can believe it doesn't all you want, its not going to change anything. Thats why PDN's point was made. It vividly portrayed the nonsense of the point.

We get it. The point was logically flawed. Belief has no verifiable influence on objective reality.

AtomicHorror · 22-05-2008 12:39pm

seamus wrote: »

Animals and plants would be devoid of original sin, and therefore devoid of concupiscence, which implies that all thing being equal, they will go to heaven when they die.

I'm glad all those dandelions I picked to make mud pies have gone to a better place. The mud pie went to waste and I've always felt guilty about their deaths.

all the stars · 22-05-2008 12:48pm

JimiTime wrote: »

I cannot believe that people are arguing here:D:confused: The point is ridiculous.

AllTheStars. What your beliefs are are irrelevant to your point. If Valhalla actually exists, whether I believe in it or not makes no odds. If heaven exists, my belief/non-belief makes no odds. If leprachauns exist, my belief/non-belief makes no odds. You see the point thats being made? You believing/not believing in something has absolutely no bearing on it. If it exists, you can believe it doesn't all you want, its not going to change anything. Thats why PDN's point was made. It vividly portrayed the nonsense of the point.

Fine. Show me god. right now. where is he/she? I want to believe in God.
So, cant be done.? or can it?

Show me Hell right now..
So, cant be done.? or can it?

judas101 · 22-05-2008 12:50pm

faceman wrote: »

There is a physical sign from Catholic God on the way.

if indeed that does happen i'll be the first to admit i was wrong.

there's just too much evil in the world and not enough evidence of a higher power for me.

all the stars · 22-05-2008 12:52pm

faceman wrote: »

What you believe in here is clearly irrelevent. Your oppressing view is ignorant and disrespectful. You are not offering any point for discussion.

Btw I wouldnt base my belief in any religion on what i learnt in school.

Im not opressing... im defending myself! I answered the OP and got it from all angles for expressing my opinion.

I dont base it on what i learned in school completely... going to a convent is a sure-fire way to loose religion.. It was that and more actually.

AtomicHorror · 22-05-2008 12:55pm

judas101 wrote: »

how can anyone believe in anything that hasnt been proven, or at least a shred of evidence to back up?

this goes for all religions. i just can't fathom it.

Look up the definition of "faith". It is belief in the absence of empirical proof.

Faith is the very reason why the God question is fundamentally irrelevant to scientific inquiry. Science proceeds in the absence of faith, other than to assume that the rules of the universe are measurable and understandable. It doesn't defy faith or discredit it- it's just a method of exploring that which is testable.

Some people need faith. There's no need to challenge that in itself.

AtomicHorror · 22-05-2008 1:02pm

faceman wrote: »

Religion hasnt caused the trouble, people have. Religion has brought hope to billions of people around the world. So whether you believe in anything or not, dont take that away from others.

Whilst I have no belief in your religion, I agree with this point. Social constructions such as religions are not inherently bad- it's just that they are used by some powerful people to satisfy selfish needs. This can be seen in all kinds of social structures. Democracy is used to justify war, communism to justify oppression, science to justify eugenics.

The core intentions of most religions are noble. The problem is people.

judas101 · 22-05-2008 1:06pm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Look up the definition of "faith". It is belief in the absence of empirical proof.

Faith is the very reason why the God question is fundamentally irrelevant to scientific inquiry. Science proceeds in the absence of faith, other than to assume that the rules of the universe are measurable and understandable. It doesn't defy faith or discredit it- it's just a method of exploring that which is testable.

Some people need faith. There's no need to challenge that in itself.

I see the tired argument of using 'faith' in the absence of scientific fact is as strong as ever.

Some people want to believe so badly they cant see the facts (or lack thereof in this case)

Mena · 22-05-2008 1:07pm

faceman wrote: »

Religion has brought hope to billions of people around the world. So whether you believe in anything or not, dont take that away from others.

It's a false hope though, I'd say that's as good as no hope at all?

AtomicHorror · 22-05-2008 1:13pm

Mena wrote: »

It's a false hope though, I'd say that's as good as no hope at all?

If it endures until death, and keeps a person happier than they would otherwise be, then it doesn't matter if atheists are correct. It's not as if the theist will have an afterlife to be disappointed in, assuming their faith was in vain.

It's only when faith is used as a cynical excuse to justify selfishness that it need concern us.

AtomicHorror · 22-05-2008 1:19pm

judas101 wrote: »

I see the tired argument of using 'faith' in the absence of scientific fact is as strong as ever.

Some people want to believe so badly they cant see the facts (or lack thereof in this case)

I'm an agnostic, not an apologist for God. For the record, I consider the existence of God as described by Christianity to be of negligible likelihood and therefore irrelevant to my life philosophy. I'm trying to explain to you why people maintain belief despite the absence of empirical data in favour of their position. As it stands, science has so far demonstrated only that a literal interpretation of the old testament is incorrect, but few have faith in that anyway.

JimiTime · 22-05-2008 1:37pm

all the stars wrote: »

Fine. Show me god. right now. where is he/she? I want to believe in God.
So, cant be done.? or can it?

Show me Hell right now..
So, cant be done.? or can it?

I don't think you are getting this. I am not attacking you or your beliefs whatever they may be etc. I am saying, that whether you believe something is real or not, does not have any effect on it 'if' it actually exists. At this point, I'm not saying anything exists, or trying to proove something exists. I'm merely telling you, that 'if' something exists, your belief/non-belief in its existence is irelevant. Your original point was 'i dont think you can go somewhere you dont believe in.' If you meant to say 'you can't go somewhere that doesn't exist', then that would make sense. But the point you made, makes no sense. Do you understand my point?

JimiTime · 22-05-2008 1:42pm

iUseVi wrote: »

Free free to use reductio ad absurdum in this case, but you will have to admit to not believing in Mountjoy, or finding someone who doesn't, to make it work.

Besides, the OP obviously didn't mean real places, for which evidence can be produced.

I know your the resident mod and and I'll probably get an infraction, but someone has to tell you - stop flaming! You and I know full well what the OP meant. Yeah maybe you think the threads a bit silly, but the OP was being sincere. If you can't answer posts without your emotions taking over, may I suggest that you just ignore the thread.;)

Ok, I may be off for a short holiday...

to defend PDN here. He answered quite politely the OP. the subsequent discussion arose from a point made by AllTheStars, namely 'i dont think you can go somewhere you dont believe in.' Maybe you got mixed up?

rockbeer · 22-05-2008 1:49pm

faceman wrote: »

Religion has brought hope to billions of people around the world. So whether you believe in anything or not, dont take that away from others.

Here's a good example of the kind of 'hope' religion has brought to people. Ms Rockbeer's mum is a 'good catholic' who was unlucky enough to be married to a violent man who beat her. Thanks to her faith, and her consequently unshakeable commitment to the holy institution of marriage (and also in part to Ireland's wonderful 'christian' culture that made it more or less impossible for a single woman with four kids to survive before divorce was introduced), she didn't do the sensible thing and leave the b*****d. Instead she endured the battering for twenty years until he eventually did them all a favour by dying.

If that's the sort of hope my atheism deprives me of I can do without it.

Of course, aside from personal examples, the hope argument is equally ridiculous on a political level. Religion is a sop that serves only to support and justify the inequality and injustice of the world by offering the illusion of an afterlife. Are you really saying that false hope of a posthumous reward in heaven is an acceptable alternative to people taking political action to do something about their problems here and now?

iUseVi · 22-05-2008 1:51pm

JimiTime wrote: »

to defend PDN here. He answered quite politely the OP. the subsequent discussion arose from a point made by AllTheStars, namely 'i dont think you can go somewhere you dont believe in.' Maybe you got mixed up?

No, no mix up. The topic may have been silly, but PDN was deliberately flaming. No need for that. And this is the Christianity forum!:D:D

kelly1 · 22-05-2008 1:56pm

rockbeer wrote: »

Here's a good example of the kind of 'hope' religion has brought to people. Ms Rockbeer's mum is a 'good catholic' who was unlucky enough to be married to a violent man who beat her. Thanks to her faith, and her consequently unshakeable commitment to the holy institution of marriage (and also in part to Ireland's wonderful 'christian' culture that made it more or less impossible for a single woman with four kids to survive before divorce was introduced), she didn't do the sensible thing and leave the b*****d. Instead she endured the battering for twenty years until he eventually did them all a favour by dying.

If that's the sort of hope my atheism deprives me of I can do without.

Of course, aside from personal examples, the hope argument is equally ridiculous on a political level. Religion is a sop that serves only to support and justify the inequality and injustice of the world by offering the illusion of an afterlife. Are you really saying that false hope of a posthumous reward in heaven is an acceptable alternative to them taking political action to do something about their problems here and now?

Why do atheists always pick the most extreme examples??? There's nothing from a religious perspective against separation in the case of a violent marriage.

What has this got do to with Christian hope??? Hope doesn't prevent anyone from improving things in the life.

rockbeer · 22-05-2008 2:01pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Why do atheists always pick the most extreme examples??? There's nothing from a religious perspective against separation in the case of a violent marriage.

That's as maybe in theoretical sense... but this is a real example of a real woman who really didn't leave a violent situation because her faith didn't allow her to. I'm sure as a christian you don't want to face up to what that means, but unfortunately it's the truth.

Maybe you should tell Ms rockbeer's mum that despite what the priests said she could have left him after all... I'm sure that'll cheer her up no end.

Zombrex · 22-05-2008 2:05pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Why do atheists always pick the most extreme examples??? There's nothing from a religious perspective against separation in the case of a violent marriage.

Interesting choice of word

What about divorce or re-marriage?

kelly1 · 22-05-2008 2:12pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Interesting choice of word

What about divorce or re-marriage?

Don't you know that Jesus condemned divorce and said that remarriage (while one's spouse is still alive) is adultery?

seamus · 22-05-2008 2:17pm

So it's OK to abandon your abusive spouse, but attempting to find happiness in the arms of a decent person will condemn you to hell?

In other words, the Catholic church believes that if you marry an abusive spouse, you have two options;
1. Stay with them
2. Die alone

Am I right?

rockbeer · 22-05-2008 2:23pm

Just been thinking about your post, Kelly1, and I have to say I find it quite offensive, not to mention quite unchristian, of you to dismiss the suffering of this lovely woman who I know well and consider myself lucky to count among my close friends as an 'extreme example'.

Do you think jesus would have reacted similarly to a story of similar pain and sacrifice? What advice do you think he would have offered her? "Your reward's in heaven" perchance?

skinner2x · 22-05-2008 2:23pm

kelly1 wrote: »

The bible clearly says that unbelievers are condemned:

Noel.

Kelly1,

If you 'say' you believe , it doesn't mean you believe. Thats something that you can't control. You can read various books to try change your opinon (to match that of your church for instance).
Its like Faith. Its cherished by churches as a wonderous things, but basically its accepting 'truths' without any facts/evidence

all the stars · 22-05-2008 2:33pm

JimiTime wrote: »

If you meant to say 'you can't go somewhere that doesn't exist', then that would make sense.

That is exactly what i meant. exactly what i meant.

My incorrect wording was causing issues - but yep, what you said is exactly what i meant ( i thought i said it too - but the wrong wording makes a lot of differance)

You know its been a long week...:(

kelly1 · 22-05-2008 2:38pm

seamus wrote: »

So it's OK to abandon your abusive spouse, but attempting to find happiness in the arms of a decent person will condemn you to hell?

In other words, the Catholic church believes that if you marry an abusive spouse, you have two options;
1. Stay with them
2. Die alone

Am I right?

No, you don't have to die alone.

rockbeer wrote: »

Just been thinking about your post, Kelly1, and I have to say I find it quite offensive, not to mention quite unchristian, of you to dismiss the suffering of this lovely woman who I know well and consider myself lucky to count among my close friends as an 'extreme example'.

Do you think jesus would have reacted similarly to a story of similar pain and sacrifice? What advice do you think he would have offered her? "Your reward's in heaven" perchance?

I didn't dismiss her suffering at all, I sympathise!! But why did she remain under the same roof? Was there nowhere else she could go? No friends, relatives? Was she stopped from going? Did she choose to stay?

skinner2x wrote: »

Kelly1,

If you 'say' you believe , it doesn't mean you believe. Thats something that you can't control. You can read various books to try change your opinon (to match that of your church for instance).
Its like Faith. Its cherished by churches as a wonderous things, but basically its accepting 'truths' without any facts/evidence

True, you can't really give yourself faith and that's why I've said elsewhere that faith is a gift from God. If we ask sincerely, we will recieve. I did and I was granted faith, thank God.

BrianCalgary · 22-05-2008 2:38pm

all the stars wrote: »

i was actually being realistic.
Mountjoy prison is somewhere you can see, feel, touch, look at & even ask for reviews if you want....
Have you been to heaven?seen it? touched it? got reviews?
Know anybody who was there lately and returned - as in know someone personally and had a conversation with them in person?- (not Jesus type of thing coz he died a long time ago and you have'nt met him in the flesh im sure)..

So does this mean that if you could talk with someone who has been to Heaven and come back, you'd believe that it existed?

If you don't believe in a religion/god, will you go to hell?

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