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https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055940817/signature-rules

Speeding Day in Court - what to do

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    #32
    thedarkroom
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭thedarkroom


    I'd recommend going with ART, you've admitted here on an open forum that you have done the deed, you got the letter and now there is a discussion/debate about the possibility of committing perjury to get off. Go to court, give your humble apology to the court and the Guard and promise not to do it again. Go off in silence and hope that is the end of it. Remember you can be identified here by your IP Address and if you piss off the Guard enough for wasting his time and make him look stupid, then he will follow it up. I know I would, I'm vindictive like that.
    Pay up, take your punishment and get on with your life. It could be worse.


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    #33
    craichoe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭craichoe


    thedarkroom wrote: »
    IRemember you can be identified here by your IP Address and if you piss off the Guard enough for wasting his time and make him look stupid, then he will follow it up. I know I would, I'm vindictive like that.
    Pay up, take your punishment and get on with your life. It could be worse.

    HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ...

    CSI ... Ballintemple .. lol


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    #34
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,878 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    thedarkroom wrote: »
    I'd recommend going with ART, you've admitted here on an open forum that you have done the deed, you got the letter and now there is a discussion/debate about the possibility of committing perjury to get off. Go to court, give your humble apology to the court and the Guard and promise not to do it again. Go off in silence and hope that is the end of it. Remember you can be identified here by your IP Address and if you piss off the Guard enough for wasting his time and make him look stupid, then he will follow it up. I know I would, I'm vindictive like that.
    Pay up, take your punishment and get on with your life. It could be worse.

    Considering:
    1. Thousands of people say they never got the summons every year
    2: There OP hasn't provided any proof of who he is
    3: This isn't a TV show

    The above situation is not going to happen.


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    #35
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    mickdw wrote: »
    The "never got the fine" argument is certain to get you off. Courts are aware of it and the original judge had strong words for the government on the stupid system they are using for posting out the offences. A new postal system is soon to be trialed to fix the problem. I think it is a system where you have to sign for it while still not being as secure as registered post so it should be cheaper to operate.
    Judge will have to let you off but ask a solicitor to satisfy yourself.

    No, no,no.

    There is at least one documented case (it may even have been discussed on this forum) of a judge coming down hard on the defence "I never got the fine in the post" when he heard it several times in one morning. He may even have requested evidence the defendant had ever complained to an post for post not received, and observed the convenience that the only post never delivered was penalty points :rolleyes:


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    #36
    craichoe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭craichoe


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    No, no,no.

    There is at least one documented case (it may even have been discussed on this forum) of a judge coming down hard on the defence "I never got the fine in the post" when he heard it several times in one morning. He may even have requested evidence the defendant had ever complained to an post for post not received, and observed the convenience that the only post never delivered was penalty points :rolleyes:

    If you never got the letter then how are you supposed to complain to An Post about it ?


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    #37
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    craichoe wrote: »
    If you never got the letter then how are you supposed to complain to An Post about it ?

    Any letter! Ever. Phone bill, electricity bill, birthday card. Just evidence there was ever a problem getting post at your address.


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    #38
    cpoh1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭cpoh1


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    Any letter! Ever. Phone bill, electricity bill, birthday card. Just evidence there was ever a problem getting post at your address.

    Its doesnt matter!!!

    The onus is on the prosecution that they can prove 100% that you received the fine in the first place not on you to proce you didnt receive it!


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    #39
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    cpoh1 wrote: »
    Its doesnt matter!!!

    The onus is on the prosecution that they can prove 100% that you received the fine in the first place not on you to proce you didnt receive it!

    http://www.fingal-independent.ie/frontpage/claimed-he-did-not-get-fine-in-post-1356498.html


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    #40
    craichoe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭craichoe


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    Any letter! Ever. Phone bill, electricity bill, birthday card. Just evidence there was ever a problem getting post at your address.

    Yeh, i sent them a complaint alright .. but they must of lost that too :p


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    #41
    cpoh1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭cpoh1


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    http://www.fingal-independent.ie/frontpage/claimed-he-did-not-get-fine-in-post-1356498.html

    They did a survey on this and found that the mail was sent out??? Interesting one that.

    If I was in that guys case i would have appealed and won that decision end of story. The judge made a lot of assumptions rather than following the letter of the law in that case.


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    #42
    Zube
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭Zube


    cpoh1 wrote: »
    If I was in that guys case i would have appealed and won that decision end of story.

    This was in the District Court, so you'd have to appeal to the Circuit court. You need a barrister for that, say €5000 for a day, plus your solicitor's fees. I'm sure your cunning plan won't fail a second time, though.


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    #43
    cpoh1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭cpoh1


    Zube wrote: »
    This was in the District Court, so you'd have to appeal to the Circuit court. You need a barrister for that, say €5000 for a day, plus your solicitor's fees. I'm sure your cunning plan won't fail a second time, though.

    My partner is a solicitor some of my closest friends are barristers, my fees wouldnt cost me a penny!


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    #44
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    http://www.fingal-independent.ie/frontpage/claimed-he-did-not-get-fine-in-post-1356498.html

    Being stopped by a Guard for speeding (or mobile phone in your link) is different. At that point, you should be expecting something in the post.

    If you are caught by a gatso you don't know about it and therefore aren't expecting a fine in the post.


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    #45
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    stevec wrote: »
    Being stopped by a Guard for speeding (or mobile phone in your link) is different. At that point, you should be expecting something in the post.

    If you are caught by a gatso you don't know about it and therefore aren't expecting a fine in the post.

    The point is...............the judge is not accepting "lost in the post" as an excuse, given the frequency (90% quoted in the story) it is offered. You don't have to be expecting it for it to turn up.


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    #46
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    cpoh1 wrote: »
    My partner is a solicitor some of my closest friends are barristers, my fees wouldnt cost me a penny!

    I've a friend who is a solicitor too. She works Herbert Square/Leeson park area, and I'm pretty sure she knows some barristers too! Never makes a difference in costs though.,:D


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    #47
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    The point is...............the judge is not accepting "lost in the post" as an excuse, given the frequency (90% quoted in the story) it is offered. You don't have to be expecting it for it to turn up.

    It the case you linked, it's not clear if whether it was a fixed penalty notice or a summons that got "lost".

    In the case of a fixed penalty notice, the legislation states that the accused must be afforded a chance to pay the fixed penalty before proceedings can be issued. The defence being used is that the accused was not afforded the chance to pay the FPN as it didn't arrive in the post. The state is not in a position to provide evidence that it was received (or even posted) so the case fails.

    The other part of it is that once a judgement is made like this a precedent is set and so a different judge hearing an identical case with identical defence and identical lack of evidence *cannot* come to a different decision.

    This is a loophole in the legislation that needs to be fixed either by using registered post or changing the law. I suspect they will fix this when the leglislation covering outsourcing speed tax cameras is brought in.

    Until then, I would not feel the slightest bit guilty taking advantage of the governments lawmaking ineptitude.


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    #48
    Zube
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭Zube


    stevec wrote: »
    Until then, I would not feel the slightest bit guilty taking advantage of the governments lawmaking ineptitude.

    Translation: Will lie under oath for €200.


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    #49
    cpoh1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭cpoh1


    Zube wrote: »
    Translation: Will lie under oath for €200.

    Who said anything about lying under oath? When this kind of thing is heard in court it never gets to the stage of the defendant being sworn in and lying in the stand. The judge simply strikes it out.


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    #50
    Zube
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭Zube


    cpoh1 wrote: »
    The judge simply strikes it out.

    Except when he doesn't, as in the newspaper story linked earlier.


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    #51
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    Zube wrote: »
    Translation: Will lie under oath for €200.

    If you tell your solicitor you never got it and the solicitor tells the court is it still perjury?


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    #52
    jhegarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,437 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    Zube wrote: »
    Except when he doesn't, as in the newspaper story linked earlier.

    In the article he says he imposed the fine, but it doesn't mention any penalty points been issues...


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