Civil Service - AO Exams

litup

Folks, I thought I should start a seperate thread to the EO one for my queries on the AO exams - hope that is ok.

Does anyone know where to get sample tests now? What does the job simulation test entail? (is it similar to the EO one?)

Is the recruitment process on a similar timescale to the EO competition? (i.e. get on panel, wait around for a year or so?)

Does anyone know if, similar to EO, for all the AO positions you have to be willing to de-centralise? (paticularly interested in the Revenue AO position)

Thanks for any info on theis confusing process!

S12

On publicjobs.ie on the right hand side there is a Quick Link section to sample tests. But there's not much. I think in the other thread someone had a link to different ones.

No idea on the other questions, it's my first time going for it as well!

indiewindy

It would be the holy grail of the civil service to know what the right answers are to the job sim, they say there are no wrong answers but it would be nice to know the least wrong answers. Its a pity the sample papers never give answers for this part of the test:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

bobbysands81

AFAIK most AO positions are in Dublin.

Job simulation should be similar to EO but a bit more difficult. AOs are MEANT to do more project based work than other grades though this is not always necessarily true.

I think the panel moves a lot quicker than EO but it is still slow. You'd need to be placed high to get called to the next level.

Best of luck - thousands of people going for very few jobs.

dubabroad

The applicationprocess on public jobs.ie was very brief. It just involved filling in a basic applicationform and submitting it.
At what point do they request a cv re qualifications , experience etc?
Is that done after the exam stage?
Am I correct in saying that they use the exam to rank people and then call people to interview based on exam results?
Any clarification on the procedure would be greatly appreciated

bobbysands81

dubabroad wrote: »

The applicationprocess on public jobs.ie was very brief. It just involved filling in a basic applicationform and submitting it.
At what point do they request a cv re qualifications , experience etc?
Is that done after the exam stage?
Am I correct in saying that they use the exam to rank people and then call people to interview based on exam results?
Any clarification on the procedure would be greatly appreciated

dubabroad,

At this stage it's just an application for the job stating your interest, further paperwork will follow in the post in due course.

The next stage is that you will be called to do an exam made up of three parts - verbal reasoning, numerical reasoning and job simulation.

If you place high enough on that you will be called back for a competency based structured interview. At this stage they take 5 of the 17 Civil Service competencies and ask you how you have shown proficiency in this area. These competencies can be something like... People Skills, Organising and Planning, Openess to Change etc... (You should be able to google them or inquire of the publicjobs.ie and they'll e-mail you the list). Have at least 2 examples for each competency prepared and people have been known to be asked for a third one on occassion as well. In the AO exam I think you might also have to make a presentation to the interview board. I've made one of these presentations before and although they're nerve wracking when you're doing them, they are nowhere near as difficult as you think they're going to be, confidence is the key.

Your application form for this stage will also ask you about your qualifications and other general life and work experience. You will more than likely have to bring in any qualifications you have, which is a pain if you have them framed!!!

If you get through the above stage and place high enough on the order of merit you are then placed on the "panel". If you place high enough and there are enough vacancies you will then be offered the job.

Good luck!

dereko1969

go to post 17 in this thread here for some online aptitude tests that should be relevant for the exams
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=81988
with the job simulation, it's usually easy enough to figure out which are the 2 'wrong' answers and then you've a 1 in 3 chance of getting the best answer right. in relation to the maths section, ignore any questions that you deem hard and basically skip ahead and do the easy ones first, all you've to do is pass this section and there's no negative marking so once you've completed all the easy ones go back and have a guess at the rest.

S12

Scenario 1

Your Principal Officer (PO) has been concerned about quality standards in a section for which you have responsibility. He/she has asked you to carry out a small, anonymous survey examining staff attitudes to quality and to put forward some proposals for improving the situation. You are in the middle of writing a short report for your PO summarising the key findings from the survey and presenting your own proposals. The report is due by lunchtime. The staff members, except for one Clerical Officer, are out of the office for the day on a training course. You realise at 10.30am that you have forgotten to add in numerous quotes that staff members wished you to include. You know where the information is but are busy drafting the remaining text and don't have a lot of time to look through all the necessary files to get it.

Do You

Give a comprehensive list of the required information to the Clerical Officer and ask him/her to get you the information as soon as possible.

Accept that the priority is to get the report to your PO by lunchtime and indicate in the report that supplementary information will be available at a specified time in the near future.

Take time out from drafting the text to get the information yourself.

Ask the Clerical Officer to get the relevant files immediately as you need to finalise a report and you don't have a lot of time left.

Spend some time explaining the background and purpose of the report to the Clerical Officer and then ask him/her to collect the information for you.

These all seem pretty reasonable to me.
If all answers are weighted differently depending on the more appropriate course of action one of these may merit 0points - How can you tell?
I know there are no answers provided for these do that you choose honestly, but can anyone tell me roughly what the best way to look at this is?

Johnny Storm

I am no eggsbert in this area but here are my thoughts:-

Give a comprehensive list of the required information to the Clerical Officer and ask him/her to get you the information as soon as possible.

This is ineffective since "The report is due by lunchtime" and you are "are busy drafting the remaining text"

Accept that the priority is to get the report to your PO by lunchtime and indicate in the report that supplementary information will be available at a specified time in the near future.

This is probably the most likely realworld approach but is it suitable for use in an interview situation?

Take time out from drafting the text to get the information yourself.

This is no good because you "are busy drafting the remaining text and don't have a lot of time to look through all the necessary files to get" the info.

Ask the Clerical Officer to get the relevant files immediately as you need to finalise a report and you don't have a lot of time left.

This seems like the best option IMHO since its the most likely way to get the job done on time.

Spend some time explaining the background and purpose of the report to the Clerical Officer and then ask him/her to collect the information for you.

This is similar to above except that you dont have the time for the explanation.

S12

Hmm.. I see where you are going with those. I would have had a different take on each:

"Give a comprehensive list of the required information to the Clerical Officer and ask him/her to get you the information as soon as possible."
I agree you don' have time to make the list, but simply asking them to get you these things with no explanation could be seen as a refusal to involve them and work as part of team- bossing them around in other words!

"Accept that the priority is to get the report to your PO by lunchtime and indicate in the report that supplementary information will be available at a specified time in the near future. "
Realistic, but posibly demonstartes an inability to rectify the situation.

"Take time out from drafting the text to get the information yourself."
Inefficient

"Ask the Clerical Officer to get the relevant files immediately as you need to finalise a report and you don't have a lot of time left."
Same as first one perhaps, but then agian after reading your list this probbaly is the best, since saying you have an urgent report is an explanation... damn, I woul have got it wrong so!

"Spend some time explaining the background and purpose of the report to the Clerical Officer and then ask him/her to collect the information for you."
If the CO understands what you are doing they will most likely be able to srt through the files for the relevent information. Plus, explaining why you need it justifies asking them to get it so you won't run the risk of appearing to boss people aroung for the sake of it. Then again, you could waste a lot of time trying to look PC...

In the other examples I saw there is one or two answers that are so obviously "wrong", but this one is too close to call for me... I could probably do as well randomly ticking the boxes so!

microbio

I am no eggsbert in this area but here are my thoughts:-


This is ineffective since "The report is due by lunchtime" and you are "are busy drafting the remaining text"



According to the familiarisation booklet for Assistant Principal, this si actually the correct answer as :

Explanation of Answers for the Job Simulation Exercise

¨ The most preferable option is [ A ] because this option demonstrates the most effective planning and organising skills. In this situation you delegated a component task in a clear manner to maximise effective use of resources within the time available to complete the project. By giving the Clerical Officer* a list of the information required, you were able to focus your time on drafting the remaining text.

¨ Options [ D ] and [ E ] both present satisfactory courses of action as they also involve planning and organising work in an effective way. They are not as effective as option
[ A ] as although they involve delegating a component task, it is not carried out in as clear a manner as a written list.

¨ Options [ B ] and [ C ] both present less satisfactory courses of action as they do not maximise on the resources available in achieving the set target. While these are realistic options and could well occur in a work situation, they are less satisfactory responses based on the information available in the scenario.


*Clerical Officer – Entry level grade in the Civil Service. Clerical Officers are typically involved in clerical or administrative work


So it's going to be hard to know what they are looking for!
BTW answer 'E' was my top choice as I didn't want to appear bossy

Johnny Storm

Very interesting! Thanks for that.

In retrospect - option D sounds like you are perhaps getting in a bit of a flap. Its probably a bad idea to reveal to an underling that "you don't have a lot of time left."

I have to say I still would never in a million years have picked A. The phrase "comprehensive list" makes it sound like you have loads of time to draw up the list? I suspose it doesn't really say in the scenario how tight for time you are.
Also IMHO asking the CO "to get you the information as soon as possible" doesn't neccessarily mean he/she is going to do have it ready for when you need it.

microbio

Johnny Storm wrote: »

I have to say I still would never in a million years have picked A. The phrase "comprehensive list" makes it sound like you have loads of time to draw up the list? I suspose it doesn't really say in the scenario how tight for time you are.

Have worked for public sector before and was never in position where I was 'tight for time'!:pac: Always get the impression with these job simulation exercises that they are trying to dispel cushy-civil-service image

Also IMHO asking the CO "to get you the information as soon as possible" doesn't neccessarily mean he/she is going to do have it ready for when you need it.[/quote]

Agreed -Esp if CO thinks you are bossy/flappy cos you haven't given yourself enough time to do silly report.:D
Defo think this is the area that I will fall down in. Recently sat the forensics exams and I think the Numerical and Verbal are about the same standard, but there was no job sim. Needless to say.. I did not do well enough to get job!

Johnny Storm

FWIW I did the open HEO exam this time last year. I felt quite happy with my efforts after doing the job simulation test but in fact I only scored at the lowest end of the minimally acceptable bracket :eek: Needless to say: no interview.
It is really hard to say what they are looking for in this test. A methodical, by-the-book, don't-rock-the-boat approach perhaps?

musicinmouth

Is there any indication as to when these exams will be held? Thanks

microbio

it says on famililarisation booklet:
http://www.publicjobs.ie/downloads/08362_AO_Revenue_Familiarisation.doc
IMPORTANT INFROMATION REGARDING TESTING SCHEDULE:
Key dates: Stage 1 (psychometric tests) will take place in Dublin on Friday 20th and/or Saturday 21st June and in country locations on Friday 27th and/or Saturday 28th June 2008. Due to rigorous timeframes, there will be no testing after Saturday 28th June 2008. Candidates with special requirements will be tested on various dates up to Saturday 28th June, 2008. EO & Graduate recruitment will contact these candidates separately.


so you might want to start booking that annual leave day!

musicinmouth

thanks a lot!

microbio

Welcome

JonThom

The examination times for this competition have been allocated. Check your www.publicjobs.ie inbox for the message.

Aglomerado

I'm on for 9.30 on Saturday 28th in Cork. Which means I can't drink on the Friday night.

indiewindy

Got Saturday 21st at 1.30pm, happy with that dont like early starts

microbio

hmm i got 9.30 21st in RDS. The fact that it's centre 33 and my candidate no is over 50000 doesn't fill me with confidence! Surely there couldn't be 50000 applicants?!

indiewindy

microbio wrote: »

hmm i got 9.30 21st in RDS. The fact that it's centre 33 and my candidate no is over 50000 doesn't fill me with confidence! Surely there couldn't be 50000 applicants?!

No there cant be that many, 11000 applied for EO , with stricter criteria, you would imagine a lot less going for this one. 2 days in RDS with 2 sessions a day while there were 3 sessions a day for eo exams

RoseBlossom

I think all candidate numbers might start with 50, or "5" at least? Maybe it's a code for "AO competition" or something.

Anyway, best of luck.

Monotype

I was wondering if anyone could tell me (since I can't find a list of instructions etc.) -
Are calculators allowed in these exams?

tricky@

Monotype wrote: »

I was wondering if anyone could tell me (since I can't find a list of instructions etc.) -
Are calculators allowed in these exams?

yep calculators are allowed.

S12

Only certain types of calculators i think

microbio

S12 wrote: »

Only certain types of calculators i think

tricky@ wrote: »

yep calculators are allowed.

Non-programmable calculators are allowed- so typical scientific calculators are grand

microbio

Monotype wrote: »

I was wondering if anyone could tell me (since I can't find a list of instructions etc.) -
Are calculators allowed in these exams?

Hi
Usually the familiarisation booklet has a list on one of the last pages detailing the things you can/should bring.. calculator/ID/pencils etc.

nalsa

does anyone know how long these exams will be? The EO competition said 2 and half hours but nothing on this one and I have to go back to work?
thanks!

druss

nalsa wrote: »

does anyone know how long these exams will be? The EO competition said 2 and half hours but nothing on this one and I have to go back to work?
thanks!

The times are listed in the familiaristion information microbio posted at the top of the previous page.

Verbal Reasoning: 30 minutes to complete the 52 questions
Numerical: 30 minutes for the 37 questions

The Job Simulation Exercise for Administrative Officer/Administrative Officer (ICT) contains 18 questions to be answered within 30 minutes.

You get the explanations before each, a few warm up questions, so i'd say 2.5 hours isn't an unrealistic estimate.

bills

just rang up public jobs about changing my time. Apparently its just the weekend of the 21st & 28th - im out of the country so cant do it!! I might see if any available for 20th June but just wondering is it worth the hassle? How many places available does anyone know. Anytime, i do aptitude tests i never seem to be make the grade anyway, i hate the things!

microbio

bills wrote: »

just rang up public jobs about changing my time. Apparently its just the weekend of the 21st & 28th - im out of the country so cant do it!! I might see if any available for 20th June but just wondering is it worth the hassle? How many places available does anyone know. Anytime, i do aptitude tests i never seem to be make the grade anyway, i hate the things!

Actually emailed publicjobs this morning to find out no applicants/no jobs.
This is response:

HI XXX

Just over 5700 people applied for the AO / 3rd Secretary competition.

It is impossible to give a definitive answer to how many positions will be available as we fill vacancies as they arise.

So at least its a bit less than the EO jobs (i think the EO thread said about 11500?? applicants and 400+ jobs). And alot of those people may only have applied for 3rd sec... hopefully!

S12

Nalsa The info booklet says it will take approx 3 hours to do the test...won't include the time you need to be there before (15mins half hour??) for everyone to be seated i'd say. And time getting there and getting back to work..

foxy6

Hi, I've received a time for these competitions and just realised that I'm supposed to have an honours degree and only have a pass degree - is there any point in me sitting the exams? Are they very strict?

microbio

foxy6 wrote: »

Hi, I've received a time for these competitions and just realised that I'm supposed to have an honours degree and only have a pass degree - is there any point in me sitting the exams? Are they very strict?

I rang up about this as I am in a similar situation. I have a pass on a hons BSc but I have a MSc and am finishing a PhD now. I asked them if the fact i had postgrads would cancel out pass degree and they said not to worry about the requirements but to apply anyway and if i pass exams then they will judge me on the details in application form. They said they had been receiving alot of queries on the qualifications req'd.
There is no harm in sitting them, and if you have relevant experience/ other qualifications now then it might cancel it out.
You could always ring them- but i imagine they will say same thing to you.

Madge

I read the familiarisation material for these AO exams last night.
Is it me or are the numerical reasoning questions quite simple?
The type of questions asked for each table of info seems to be repetitive.
And there seems to be not as much working out for the questions as for the EO exam numerical reasoning questions?

Suaimhneach

I have 13.30 on 21st. Wanted to do any other day/time but non suited. Alternative options supplied were on the 28th in Cork/Galway/Limerick! And no way I can do the 9.30 exam

Meant to be studying now, I guess, but odds seem stacked against me, going up against PhD's and the like I'll give it my best shot anyway.

microbio

Jesjes wrote: »

Meant to be studying now, I guess, but odds seem stacked against me, going up against PhD's and the like I'll give it my best shot anyway.

Mentioning PhD was all part of the cunning plan to hopefully entice people to back out and leave the lovely jobs for me! Although with the education comes severe institutionalisation so I don't think my management skills will be up to much on the job simulation! lol

Anyone know if the car park is open at the RDS? Presume it must be considering the numbers that will be there??

Suaimhneach

Yeah, afaik it has to be open whenever they have events etc.

I just did some of the tests there, linked to from another website askaboutmoney.com and they were useful.


http://www.shl.com/shl/en-int

http://www.practicetests.co.uk/Launchtest.asp

http://www.kent.ac.uk/careers/psychotests.htm

http://www.peoplemaps.com/html/report_free.php

http://europa.eu/epso/competitions/test_interactif_en.cfm
http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/prep_one/prep_one.html
http://www.assessmentday.co.uk/aptitudetests_numerical.htm

I have an interview on Fri for another job too, and there is a chance to go perm in my place of employment at present, too many decisions!! Nice to have choice tho.

sergiotheonly

hi everyone
i seem to remember a mention somewhere that we had to bring a passport sized photo with us to the civil service exam. cant remember where i saw it now but is it safe to assume that it was a typo and just means you have to bring photo id?

Petrolium Hat

bobbysands81 wrote: »

AFAIK most AO positions are in Dublin.

Job simulation should be similar to EO but a bit more difficult. AOs are MEANT to do more project based work than other grades though this is not always necessarily true.

I think the panel moves a lot quicker than EO but it is still slow. You'd need to be placed high to get called to the next level.

Best of luck - thousands of people going for very few jobs.

Not true, most if not all new AO positions are decntralised ones. There's hundreds of excess staff at heo/ao level wanting to stay in Dublin, they clearlly don't need more.

AO's are meant to be more project/policy based stuff, though this isn't necissarily the case, many that ive worked with (and worked as) have been the same as HEO's except paid less.

Aglomerado

sergiotheonly wrote: »

hi everyone
i seem to remember a mention somewhere that we had to bring a passport sized photo with us to the civil service exam. cant remember where i saw it now but is it safe to assume that it was a typo and just means you have to bring photo id?

It's just photo ID needed for the exam. They usually do ask for it.They only ask for a passport photo when you get to the interview stage (you bring it with you on the day).

Climate Expert

Jesjes wrote: »

I have 13.30 on 21st. Wanted to do any other day/time but non suited. Alternative options supplied were on the 28th in Cork/Galway/Limerick! And no way I can do the 9.30 exam

Meant to be studying now, I guess, but odds seem stacked against me, going up against PhD's and the like I'll give it my best shot anyway.

You're going up against people with pass degrees so I wouldn't worry.

indiewindy

Climate Expert wrote: »

You're going up against people with pass degrees so I wouldn't worry.

As you need an honours degree, you'd be wasting your time applying with a pass degree

dubdub123

Am scheduled to sit exam tomorrow but now I'm wondering if you need to have management experience for these roles? Have honors degree and years of experience working, but no real management experience. I don't want to stress myself out chasging this if really it's not a good match.
Any comments??

Climate Expert

dubdub123 wrote: »

Am scheduled to sit exam tomorrow but now I'm wondering if you need to have management experience for these roles? Have honors degree and years of experience working, but no real management experience. I don't want to stress myself out chasging this if really it's not a good match.
Any comments??

Well you did alright in the crime one so I'd say you'd be grand.

Tan Princess

Can someone post the link to previous exams?

Petrolium Hat

Tan Princess wrote: »

Can someone post the link to previous exams?

They never publish previous exams, only samples. It's meant to be an aptitude test, though the job simulation excersises in particular are extremely outdated.

Tan Princess

Well are there any samples available?

Lolly77

I am finding this site helpful for the numeric reasoning test
http://www.assessmentday.co.uk

Anyone know how high you have to score on the numeric section to pass??