Unfair Criticism of Irish Rail Inter-City Speeds

Nostradamus

I think the recent round of articles and professional arm-wringers making comparisons between Irish Rail inter-city train speeds in 1973 and 2008 really need to get a life.

To suggest that billions have been spent for nothing is silly. Get in a tardis and go back to see what kind of "service" CIE provided in 1973 and compared it today and it's a different universe now.

There are hundreds of more services, dozens of new stations. Considering that Irish rail had to provide a major commuter service around Dublin is it any wonder that Inter-City times have decreased. In 1973 a train from Sligo to Connolly only had to worry about a cattle train in the siding at Liffey Junction, in 2008 there is a whole commuter belt between Maynooth and the City centre. Yes the train is slower today, but more than double the number of Sligo services in each direction. I know which I would prefer.

Yes we need to improve intercity train time but comparing the Sligo line now to 1973. Jeez! New lines/major double tracking is the only way this is going to happen. Yer man from the consumer group needs to get out of his car and do some research into just how far Irish Rail have come in recent years.

Lots of things to complain about Irish Rail, but to suggest we have nothing to show for billions invested is just so OTT and unfair to IE.

paulm17781

What's the journey time between Sligo and Maynooth like now compared to 1973? No doubt services have improved but I see no reason that stretch should have gotten slower.

markpb

One of the reasons travel time has increased is because Irish Rail add padding to their timetables ensuring that they are never more than 15 minutes "late". If they came clean about their actual punctuality, most journeys would be a few minutes shorter.

This problem isn't limited to Irish Rail though, the government has a huge part to play in it. Double tracking and proper signalling won't happen without signifigant investment.

weehamster

unfair to IE

While you are right to point this out, for most people, it is very difficult not to be like this against IÉ. They are quite simply a shambolic company who charge some of the highest prices in Europe but don't provide a European standard of service.

Ham'nd'egger

Nostradamus wrote: »

I think the recent round of articles and professional arm-wringers making comparisons between Irish Rail inter-city train speeds in 1973 and 2008 really need to get a life.

To suggest that billions have been spent for nothing is silly. Get in a tardis and go back to see what kind of "service" CIE provided in 1973 and compared it today and it's a different universe now.

There are hundreds of more services, dozens of new stations. Considering that Irish rail had to provide a major commuter service around Dublin is it any wonder that Inter-City times have decreased. In 1973 a train from Sligo to Connolly only had to worry about a cattle train in the siding at Liffey Junction, in 2008 there is a whole commuter belt between Maynooth and the City centre. Yes the train is slower today, but more than double the number of Sligo services in each direction. I know which I would prefer.

Yes we need to improve intercity train time but comparing the Sligo line now to 1973. Jeez! New lines/major double tracking is the only way this is going to happen. Yer man from the consumer group needs to get out of his car and do some research into just how far Irish Rail have come in recent years.

Lots of things to complain about Irish Rail, but to suggest we have nothing to show for billions invested is just so OTT and unfair to IE.

I recall reading before that the 2 hour 18 minute Cork-Dublin that is mentioned in the report was a once a week non stop service on a Sunday that just about kept that time and not the regular service. I also know that since then, a speed limit is imposed through Limerick Junction, Port Laois and Portarlington that causes 10-15 minutes delays that will be cut off times soon. Regular Dublin Cork trains can do it in 2 hours 35 minutes with ease; I wonder if they bothered to check up how many services arrive early. Nostra, you are also correct in saying that there is a lot more stopping services to hold up trains; of course this isn't reflected in this blind report.

Ham'nd'egger

weehamster wrote: »

While you are right to point this out, for most people, it is very difficult not to be like this against IÉ. They are quite simply a shambolic company who charge some of the highest prices in Europe but don't provide a European standard of service.

Any examples of comparable journeys to show us?

markpb

Hamndegger wrote: »

Any examples of comparable journeys to show us?

Dublin to Belfast takes 2h10 and costs €52 return for 166km
Paris to Reims takes 45m and costs €40 return for 143km

There's a discount for booking more than 10 days in advance - if you don't, the price rises to €54.

When you go to Reims, you validate your ticket and walk straight onto the platform. An inspector in full uniform and with a name badge will politely check your ticket shortly after you leave. When you get to the other end, you walk straight off the platform without having the wrestle your suitcase through ticket barriers.

L1011

Don't you get a significant discount for booking Dublin-Belfast more than ten days in advance online though? I'm sure I've paid less than 20 each way before. Can do it for less in petrol/tolls though so haven't travelled recently.

RuggieBear

what is the Leicester to St Pancras London price?

Metrobest

Nostradamus wrote: »

I think the recent round of articles and professional arm-wringers making comparisons between Irish Rail inter-city train speeds in 1973 and 2008 really need to get a life.

To suggest that billions have been spent for nothing is silly. Get in a tardis and go back to see what kind of "service" CIE provided in 1973 and compared it today and it's a different universe now.

There are hundreds of more services, dozens of new stations. Considering that Irish rail had to provide a major commuter service around Dublin is it any wonder that Inter-City times have decreased. In 1973 a train from Sligo to Connolly only had to worry about a cattle train in the siding at Liffey Junction, in 2008 there is a whole commuter belt between Maynooth and the City centre. Yes the train is slower today, but more than double the number of Sligo services in each direction. I know which I would prefer.

Yes we need to improve intercity train time but comparing the Sligo line now to 1973. Jeez! New lines/major double tracking is the only way this is going to happen. Yer man from the consumer group needs to get out of his car and do some research into just how far Irish Rail have come in recent years.

Lots of things to complain about Irish Rail, but to suggest we have nothing to show for billions invested is just so OTT and unfair to IE.

There's very little to show in my opinion for the money that has been spent (wasted) on Irish Rail's intercity services. They hoover up state subsides and, filled with Grannies on day trips to Dublin, don't even serve a representative cross section of the population. Journey times are appalling; you are quicker in a car.

When the motorway network is fully operational the slowless of Irish Rail's trains will be stand out like a sore thumb. The only future for intercity rail travel is therefore on dedicated high speed lines, which is what is happening all over Europe and developed countries like Japan. On routes like Barcelona-Madrid, the train is stealing all the business from the airlines because it's faster and more convenient. Looking to fly from Amsterdam to Paris? Only one airline flies that route because Thalys has the market sewn up.

I wouldn't trust Irish Rail to operate a hanging basket, let a alone a high speed train line. So any future high speed line would have to be done as PPP with a high quality international operator like Thalys at the helm. But a high speed rail line just isn't even near the agenda at the moment. Even though the government is supposed to have a Green tint to it.

Spain is spending €250Bn on its high speed network; already you can do Madrid-Barcelona (500km) in a little over the time it takes to do the 166km from Dublin-Belfast. And in the Basque country, a high-speed Y will connect its three main cities, which are comparable in population to the Irish trio of Dublin, Cork and Belfast. In 20 years time when the map of European high speed rail services is on display, Ireland won't have a single line that could be classed high speed.

Unacceptable.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote: »

So any future high speed line would have to be done as PPP with a high quality international operator like Thalys at the helm

wouldn't work-the private operator would still be reliant on IE to make sure slots were available (at the planned times!) at the terminus stations (unless you go underground at huge cost to penetrate the city centres). IE can't even get their current setup to run reliably without regular cascade failures.

IE are indeed still a shambles. Trains still wait for that lad who should have been at the station on time-it's 1950's stuff. Head to Germany (and others) and see timetabled services comprised of 2 trains coupled together which split up along their way and go to different destinations and then re-form on the return journey, almost unnoticed by the passengers-and they do this 3 times an hour each way without skipping a beat.

Victor

Hamndegger wrote: »

I recall reading before that the 2 hour 18 minute Cork-Dublin that is mentioned in the report was a once a week non stop service on a Sunday that just about kept that time and not the regular service.

I regularly got the bat train in the mid-1990s and it kept to the schedule.

Sure, there are more services that make things more complicated at peak times, but I did Dublin-Cork return last week and the times were 2h54-2h55 off peak.

Metrobest

murphaph wrote: »

wouldn't work-the private operator would still be reliant on IE to make sure slots were available (at the planned times!) at the terminus stations (unless you go underground at huge cost to penetrate the city centres). IE can't even get their current setup to run reliably without regular cascade failures.

IE are indeed still a shambles. Trains still wait for that lad who should have been at the station on time-it's 1950's stuff. Head to Germany (and others) and see timetabled services comprised of 2 trains coupled together which split up along their way and go to different destinations and then re-form on the return journey, almost unnoticed by the passengers-and they do this 3 times an hour each way without skipping a beat.

It would work....if......the line was segregrated from Irish Rail's operations and put underground/elevated at various points. In the city centres (assuming you want the high speed train to terminate in the city centre), underground sections are neccessary. For example Barcelona is to constuct a high speed tunnel from Sants Station (the terminus for the Barcelona-Madrid line) to a new terminus on the other side of the city which will extend the line to Girona and onwards to France.

The argument in favour of such a tunnel is 1. It makes the high speed rail more attractive and 2. It frees up existing lines for more commuter/regional services.

New platforms for the "international" train need to be built in existing stations, these are often magnificent, eg. Antwerp Central Station for the Thalys.

Carawaystick

I'll bite. and give evidence everyone can check and see if irish Rail's intercity speeds are a sham

look up all trains from Mallow to Cork tomorrow wed,20th may

intercity times 35 mins,
suburban times 24 mins

now when all the Irish rail fanboys explain this, i'll believe in unfair criticism of irish rail.

Nostradamus

Actually the title of the thread should of really been "Meaningless Comparison with 1973 Rail Services" - ye man was going on like the Inter-City rail service was some how superior in 1973 - it wasn't. There was a morning, lunchtime, and teatime trains on the routes (at max) and some didn't even have that.

I am not saying today is paradise, but 1973 was no utopia. Considering that IE operate under a very strict railway safety guidelines these days the extra time on Inter-City services is really not that bad. To be frank I really can't see a way of making them faster with a mainly single track network and a congested Dublin rail infrastructure.

Yes Irish Rail are far from a top-quality rail operator, but IE are balancing the timetable in favour of commuter services, and considering thats were the majority of passengers are, then that's life. The report somehow is lost in the past - it sees "deh train" as something you might need to visit your granny once a year, or a trip to the seaside. The commuting realities of the present is were rail is in Ireland now.

And there is lots to see for the money spent. When I think of what the Sligo like was like 1998 and compare it to now - it's like another world.

patrickc

in the 70's the dublin dundalk train took 52 mins, now it's an hour or so, and there were more stations back then..

Nostradamus

patrickc wrote: »

in the 70's the dublin dundalk train took 52 mins, now it's an hour or so, and there were more stations back then..

The only closed station on that section I can think of between then and now is Mosney and most trains missed that. So what other stations on the Dublin-Dundalk route have closed since the 1970's? I can't think of any off hand.

Also there was no DART nor Northern Commuter service back then. Which is the main point I am trying to make with this thread. Congestion isn't only an issue on the roads. But the other benefits compared to a few minutes off 1970's inter-city routes have been huge and brought hundreds of millions of more passengers journies onto the rail network.

Lennoxschips

Metrobest wrote: »

I wouldn't trust Irish Rail to operate a hanging basket, let a alone a high speed train line. So any future high speed line would have to be done as PPP with a high quality international operator like Thalys at the helm.

Thalys is just a brand name for trains commonly operated by the Dutch, Belgian and French state companies.

The High-speed line from Antwerp to Amsterdam is massively over budget and about four years behind schedule. And when it opens the rolling stock won't be ready yet. It's been a total shambles so far.

My experience with Irish Rail has been disappointing as far as staff service goes. The train from Cork to Cobh didn't show up 10, 15, 20 minutes after it was supposed to leave, and there wasn't so much as an announcement, apology or any indication of when it might show up. It eventually showed up 25 minutes late. On the way back I wanted to buy a ticket back (lost my return ticket) and there were no ticket machines at Cobh. So I walked up to the conductor to ask if I could buy a ticket. He nearly bit my head off and said, "Look, just go sit down and I'll be along to sell you one in a minute." Lovely.

loyatemu

the problem with journey times is mainly down to padding in the timetable to allow Irish rail to keep to their lateness targets. These are supposedly "independently" verified but perhaps the targets themselves should be independently set.

The distances and speed limits for each line are known - it should be easy enough to work out a target journey time that can be set and monitored independently. There's not much incentive for Irish Rail to improve speeds at present.

OTK

Last time I went from Dublin to Cork by train, a third of my journey was spent taking two uncomfortable buses getting to Heuston station. When I got on the train, somebody had taken my reserved seat and wanted me to fight him for it.

Once I'm on a train, in a seat I don't mind at all if it takes 2:15 or 2:30. So I would say it's far more important to sort out the urban transport that feeds the intercity train services than to worry about journey times. It's a small country after all.

I just drive to Cork now and it's only getting better with the new motorway.

ardmacha

There is nothing "unfair" or "meaningless" about pointing out that IE are offering an inferior service timewise to most parts of the country when compared to a generation ago. Trains may be more frequent, but there should not have been a loss of travel time.

o what other stations on the Dublin-Dundalk route have closed since the 1970's?

Dunleer station was used on the Dundalk line in the 1970s.

I am not sure that Thalys type services are relevant to Ireland, but in places like Finland which are more sparsely populated, Pendolino services have speeded up journeys and this may be a better example.

Ham'nd'egger

loyatemu wrote: »

the problem with journey times is mainly down to padding in the timetable to allow Irish rail to keep to their lateness targets. These are supposedly "independently" verified but perhaps the targets themselves should be independently set.

The distances and speed limits for each line are known - it should be easy enough to work out a target journey time that can be set and monitored independently. There's not much incentive for Irish Rail to improve speeds at present.

Padding isn't actually included to cover trains late targets; it is there to allow for delays en route for any engineering works, hold ups at stations for passengers boarding etc. Current slacks on timetables are more generous at the minute to allow for Kildare route works in the Dublin area.

BrianD

markpb wrote: »

Dublin to Belfast takes 2h10 and costs €52 return for 166km
Paris to Reims takes 45m and costs €40 return for 143km

There's a discount for booking more than 10 days in advance - if you don't, the price rises to €54.

When you go to Reims, you validate your ticket and walk straight onto the platform. An inspector in full uniform and with a name badge will politely check your ticket shortly after you leave. When you get to the other end, you walk straight off the platform without having the wrestle your suitcase through ticket barriers.

And the polite French gentleman will go on strike for a month at the drop of a hat.

murphaph

Hamndegger wrote: »

Padding isn't actually included to cover trains late targets; it is there to allow for delays en route for any engineering works, hold ups at stations for passengers boarding etc. Current slacks on timetables are more generous at the minute to allow for Kildare route works in the Dublin area.

The Maynooth line has considerable padding and has as far as I can remember. This is easily demonstated by trains arriving 5-7 mins late into Clonsilla somehow arriving on time or only a minute late at Connolly. They go noticeably faster so it's clear that they are deliberately run slow 99% of the time, which is a disgaceful way to run a railway.

weehamster

Hamndegger wrote: »

Any examples of comparable journeys to show us?

:cool: It is quite clear from that question that you have never had the fortune of travelling on rail in Europe. If you actually had, you would have never asked that question.

serfboard

OTK wrote: »

Last time I went from Dublin to Cork by train, a third of my journey was spent taking two uncomfortable buses getting to Heuston station. When I got on the train, somebody had taken my reserved seat and wanted me to fight him for it.

Brilliant! I can just imagine you being played by John Wayne, and the other fella being played by Victor McLaglen. Barry Fitzgerald plays the conductor who says "gentlemen now, please!", and the rest of us sit there thinking that this is very twee and doesn't happen in modern Ireland anymore!

Metrobest

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Thalys is just a brand name for trains commonly operated by the Dutch, Belgian and French state companies.

The High-speed line from Antwerp to Amsterdam is massively over budget and about four years behind schedule. And when it opens the rolling stock won't be ready yet. It's been a total shambles so far.
.

Shambles? Sounds like the media spin on it. Like every big project, all the cost and disruption will be worth it as soon as the line opens and then the focus will move on to which line should be next for high speed.

I travelled Thalys Amsterdam to Paris and I noticed that the Amsterdam-Brussels section of the line is quite slow; you really notice the difference on the Brussels to Paris section. When the new high speed line from Schipol opens it will reduce the journey time from Amsterdam to Paris from 4.09 to 3.04 hours. That's fast.

The benefits of high speed are clear, especially when you factor in the environment. Presently KLM flies between Schipol and Brussels, but these flights will be made unviable by the speed advantage of Thalys, reducing the emissions we all worry about. Indeed, Thalys already codeshares with the Skyteam alliance so train+plane is possible one one ticket. The same is happening with the highspeed line from Barcelona to Madrid, which stops at El Prat airport in Barcelona.

Now Ireland is a very small country, so a high speed line that connects Cork - X big town - Dublin city centre - Dublin Airport - Drogheda - Belfast would be completely viable. Yes it would cost billions but so what? Think of the social, economic and environmental benefits. If the Basques can do, if the Belgians can do it, why can't the Irish?

Calina

Metrobest wrote: »

Now Ireland is a very small country, so a high speed line that connects Cork - X big town - Dublin city centre - Dublin Airport - Drogheda - Belfast would be completely viable. Yes it would cost billions but so what? Think of the social, economic and environmental benefits. If the Basques can do, if the Belgians can do it, why can't the Irish?

Because we are cheapskates, Metrobest and you know this. The general policy is to do as little as possible at all times. We spend an awful lot of time sweating the small stuff as far as infrastructure is concerned until our backs are to the wall about the big stuff.

We could build a decent high speed line between Cork and Belfast via Dublin Airport and feed it correctly like they do with the TGV in Paris. However, we're not going to do it because up front it will cost too much money and we don't care about the long term in this country too much. You only have to look at some of the debates about local transport in this country - viz the possibility of a tram system in Cork as an example - here. We do not want to spend the money, end of story. We save pennies to spend pounds and pounds later.

Incidentally I used to regularly use the Thalys between Brussels and Paris, and occasionally the Eurostar between London and Paris. I do still often use the TGV between Paris and Quimper. We have no idea how to travel in this country.

Nostradamus

ardmacha wrote: »

I am not sure that Thalys type services are relevant to Ireland, but in places like Finland which are more sparsely populated, Pendolino services have speeded up journeys and this may be a better example.

and Finland also operates a non standard gauge (well Russian) - but they still got a modified Italian train designed for standard gauge to work on their system, so no excuses from IE about non-standard equiptment. Finland also built new lines as well.

Finland, Norway, Sweden all with around the same population density as Ireland and all have been in the High-Speed or Semi-High Speed rail business for years now, while Dr John Lynch is talking about "Boosters" on the Dublin-Cork line by 2020.

We need to stop this carry on now and apply the same dynamic we applied to Luas now to Inter-City rail. The Dublin-Belfast corridor would be were to start.

Nostradamus

The issue is that we have a 'terrified of anything new or different' mentality in this country and the lunatics who call radio shows such as Joe Duffy, or a parish priest in Mayo swinging his rosary beads in the direction of Kildare Street have more say in this country's transport development than anyone else. Bottom line is that the Irish have no faith in the Irish and for all the superfical pride we have as a nation we are utterly self-loathing and self-belittling.

I honestly can't see that changing either. We are culturally a nation of feckless drunks really, who as long as we have some British soccer club winning on TV to keep the average Irish moron deluded and happy, then all in well.

"Another can of Bud there Deco..."

paulm17781

Nostradamus wrote: »

Finland, Norway, Sweden all with around the same population density as Ireland and all have been in the High-Speed or Semi-High Speed rail business for years now, while Dr John Lynch is talking about "Boosters" on the Dublin-Cork line by 2020.

I don't know about Norway or Finland but Sweden is 4 - 5 times the size or Ireland with 9 million people. If you include the North, we're about 6m, I think 4.5M if you exclude it.

There is no reason the Swede's can and we can't... Other than they're proud of things like this.