Irish Rail derails plans for Wi-Fi on trains

godtabh

Hamndegger wrote: »

This issue was mentioned on George Hook tonight. The technology expert said that he had heard that there may be an issue with Irish Rail communication radio frequencies and WIFI clashing with each other that means it would be problematic to install; I am sure that it will be repeated overnight or on podcast one of the days.

Paul, when you mention €10k; is that €10k per train or €10k for all the trains?

Is that that rain raido that causes the interference?

How many "sets" of trains would there be?

jjbrien

Considering IE installed Signs on the Maynooth line at Coolmine and never got them to work how do you expect these guys to opperate wifi. Could you imagine asking them for help connecting to it. You are taking about a company when you call their infromation line they still work on paper timetables so how do you expect them to understand wifi.

KC61

kearnsr wrote: »

How many "sets" of trains would there be?

31 x 3 car Intercity railcars
10 x 6 car Intercity railcars
5 x 6 car long distance commuter sets
8 x Dublin/Cork sets (including spares)
4 x Dublin/Belfast sets (including spares)

(And potentially 6 Mark 3 sets)

So that is 64 sets (leaving out commuter stock).

wwhyte

jjbrien wrote: »

Considering IE installed Signs on the Maynooth line at Coolmine and never got them to work how do you expect these guys to opperate wifi. Could you imagine asking them for help connecting to it. You are taking about a company when you call their infromation line they still work on paper timetables so how do you expect them to understand wifi.

Why is there an assumption that Irish Rail would install and maintain the network? This is exactly the kind of thing that Bitbuzz or Eircom WiFi do. It's not exactly the case that every cafe that offers WiFi understands how to manage the network: they get a provider to install and run it, and split the costs somehow. The same for rail -- fitting may be slightly more complicated but I'm sure there are people who know how to do it. WiFi could probably be provided in such a way that there's virtually no cost to Irish Rail in terms of using technical staff, only the cost of taking carriages out of service for long enough to equip them and the cost of the management time it takes to get the best deal.

And there's clearly a competitive advantage to getting it in. On the New York-Boston run, some of the coaches now have WiFi and Amtrak doesn't. That makes it easier for the coaches to get travellers. The nature of the business is you have to keep improving your service or lose to the competition. I agree it'd be nice to see punctuality improved, but I don't see why we can't push for both.

godtabh

wwhyte wrote: »

And there's clearly a competitive advantage to getting it in. On the New York-Boston run, some of the coaches now have WiFi and Amtrak doesn't. That makes it easier for the coaches to get travellers. The nature of the business is you have to keep improving your service or lose to the competition. I agree it'd be nice to see punctuality improved, but I don't see why we can't push for both.

Who would Irish Rail be competing against?

markpb

kearnsr wrote: »

Who would Irish Rail be competing against?

Buses, cars?

serfboard

wwhyte wrote: »

Why is there an assumption that Irish Rail would install and maintain the network? This is exactly the kind of thing that Bitbuzz or Eircom WiFi do. It's not exactly the case that every cafe that offers WiFi understands how to manage the network: they get a provider to install and run it, and split the costs somehow. The same for rail -- fitting may be slightly more complicated but I'm sure there are people who know how to do it. WiFi could probably be provided in such a way that there's virtually no cost to Irish Rail in terms of using technical staff, only the cost of taking carriages out of service for long enough to equip them and the cost of the management time it takes to get the best deal.

OK then, that provides the basis for a solution. Why have IE split the costs though? If it's as cheap to install as the OP says it is, why aren't Bitbuzz/eircom banging on IE's door offering to install it for free, and then taking the revenue from it as I'm sure they will be aware how to charge for it.

So, IE could put it out to tender on the following basis:

1. All installation and maintenance costs are borne by the provider (apparently very cheaply we've been told).
2. The winning tender will be the one who agrees to share the most revenue with IE.

And then, if there are any problems with the service, IE can tell the punters to contact the provider.

RedPlanet

How come Europe can figure this stuff out and we Irish can't?
IE is like a 3rd world country.

mickoneill30

For the people who want internet access let them get their own wireless connections. My users are supplied with O2 3g modems. Several of them have reported that it's been acceptable on their train trips. It flicks between Edge / HSDPA / GPRS as they're travelling and they get the odd disconnect but for business users (surfing / email) that's good enough.

If you're so important as to be on call 24 hours then if you need access during an emergency get off the train and use your 3G modem or fixed internet.

For the people who want better trains let IE worry about that. They're doing a crap enough job with the trains. We don't want them worrying about internet access problems too.
Step one might be to provide enough seats. You're not going to be surfing with your wireless enabled carraige if you can't sit down and open your laptop or if the train is cancelled because some driver slept in.

axer

Probably wouldnt make sense to have wifi on every carraige. Would make more sense to have few carraiges only with the wifi. Not sure about the costs or how they would maintain an internet connection though.

godtabh

markpb wrote: »

Buses, cars?

Thats not what the poster wanted. He was giving an example of on train provider having wifi and picking that provider over another that does not have wifi.


Out of interest can bus and cars have wifi similar to trains? My understanding is that they cant

markpb

kearnsr wrote: »

Thats not what the poster wanted. He was giving an example of on train provider having wifi and picking that provider over another that does not have wifi

Perhaps but he asked who they're in competition with and that's the honest answer. If they want to stay competitive and not lose business to buses or cars, they need to get the basics right *and* they need to offer incentives such as wifi.

godtabh

markpb wrote: »

Perhaps but he asked who they're in competition with and that's the honest answer. If they want to stay competitive and not lose business to buses or cars, they need to get the basics right *and* they need to offer incentives such as wifi.

The incentives should be for the masses not for the select few who may pay to use wifi.

In order to entice people to use the rail they need to offer an efficient reliable serve.

The money spent on wifi could be better spent on upgrading/fixing station information boards along the Maynooth line.

I'm sure alot of people could think of things they would rather spend money on than wifi.

John_C

kearnsr wrote: »

The incentives should be for the masses not for the select few who may pay to use wifi.

A lot of people use the internet these days.

L1011

kearnsr wrote: »

Thats not what the poster wanted. He was giving an example of on train provider having wifi and picking that provider over another that does not have wifi.


Out of interest can bus and cars have wifi similar to trains? My understanding is that they cant

Buses probably but would have more overhead obstructions. The backlink is provided by satellite. Cars would be even harder again.

Buses would be VERY uncomfortable to use a laptop on vs. a table in a train. Cars lethal if you're driving

aliveandkicking

A little bit of perspective to counter a lot of the crap posted on the previous 3 pages (I'm looking at you kearnsr)

GNER steams ahead with on-train Wi-Fi

Half million now signed up for the service

Long-distance train operator GNER has announced that half a million people have now used its on-train Wi-Fi service. The company first trialled the service in 2003 before rolling it out along the company's Mallard routes to the north east of England and Scotland operating out of London's King's Cross.
The company has reported a 77 per cent increase in monthly usage figures since it became the first UK train operator to roll out WiFi across its entire fleet last October.
GNER has polled its users and, unsurprisingly, 85 per cent were using the Wi-Fi for work. Apparently, those from the East Midlands are most likely to use the wireless access for work rather than leisure. Almost a fifth of all WiFi users (19 per cent) use the wireless to research travel information.
"It's great to see that GNER travellers are embracing the digital revolution and using WiFi for a whole host of different purposes, whether checking emails or shopping for the latest bargains," said GNER's Alan Hyde in a statement.
Wi-Fi access is free with first class tickets, but is available for a fee in standard class - a not inconsiderable £2.95 for 30 minutes.
GNER's onboard Wifi service improves the travelling experience for business passengers and delivers a valuable reason for them to upgrade - First Class passengers receive free Internet access.
As well as improved customer service and the opportunity for more productive travelling, onboard Wifi delivers a USP that travel by planes and cars can't match and this is a key differentiator when considering which mode of transport is most appropriate. Demonstrating pioneering and progressive services for customers that increase revenues for rail companies, as well as creating a more positive perception of rail travel, not only helps develop greater brand appeal for GNER, it will also encourage a modal shift from other forms of transport.

You really have to wonder sometimes why we are so backward in this country.

Ham'nd'egger

GNER also spent over £1 million on this alone in 2003, ran over a year late on it and then spent a further £3.2 million by October 2006 and they charge £9.95 a day for it's use. Other networks in the UK invested in WI MAX at similar outlays but with higher passenger numbers, they can make the gamble on gaining a return on the investment.

£4.2+ million would pay a lot of additional drivers on cancelled services, buy another 3 car set of 22000 railcars, replace a few level crossings, renew the Shannon Bridge on the the Sligo line to cut 15 minutes from it's journey or replace most of the Waterford-Limerick Junction trackwork and increase it to 60MPH working and faster times on it's trips. Irish Rail just have not the passenger density on services that UK mainlines have in terms of passenger numbers to risk the injection on a potential loss making project such as this until the technology comes down in price.

L1011

It wouldn't cost 4.2+ million though. The Mk4's have much of the equipment in place, and much of GNERs costs were due to it being experimental - its not experimental any more.

godtabh

aliveandkicking wrote: »

A little bit of perspective to counter a lot of the crap posted on the previous 3 pages (I'm looking at you kearnsr)

What the higlighted points are your counter points?

• It was trialled in 2003.
  
• First class passegners get free wifi?
  
• Increase in profits
  
• and modal shift?

How does that add perspective?

The only thing that relates to a normal day to day passenger which would make up a large percentage of people using trains the only thing that relates to it is modal shift. Modal shift can be encouraged in some many different ways the most effecitve being an efficeint service with relevant up to date and easy to obtain information.

aliveandkicking wrote: »

You really have to wonder sometimes why we are so backward in this country.

We are backwards becasue Irish Rail isnt going to provide wifi?

popebenny16

Hate things like wifi. Firstly, there was a time when i could use the train as a nice excuse to have a doze going to or from a meeting in Dublin, now I'm expected to work en route.

Just as an example, I can (ie am forced) to connect to our office database and reply to calls, read the scanned post and dictate replies all via remote desktop (or something)during my so-called relaxing journey. This isnt to mention the fact that I'd have the mobile going off as well. I'd assume that if there was wi-fi this would work faster, I dont know, but Paul is the expert.

The thing is that if IE want to go to all the bother of charging extra (a good deal extra as it happens) for first class pax then they have to keep up with the times and install first class service. While I agree to a point with Kernser as well, its not like I have anywhere else to go and use the laptop with wi-fi and in the asbense of compitition what have IE got to lose, it is a selling point.

As for the costs, well, IE are so happy to advertise their new fleet, surely the wi-fi gear could have beeen stuck in at the factory?

Finally, the words "There's no basis it isn't financially viable" means its viable from a financial point of view. How anyone can read that otherwise is beyond me. Double negative, you know?

aliveandkicking

kearnsr wrote: »

What the higlighted points are your counter points?

• It was trialled in 2003.
  
• First class passegners get free wifi?
  
• Increase in profits
  
• and modal shift?

How does that add perspective?

The only thing that relates to a normal day to day passenger which would make up a large percentage of people using trains the only thing that relates to it is modal shift. Modal shift can be encouraged in some many different ways the most effecitve being an efficeint service with relevant up to date and easy to obtain information.



We are backwards becasue Irish Rail isnt going to provide wifi?

No the whole article is a counter point. The highlighted bits are just the bits I think are most relevant.

2003 was five years ago. Now five years later IE have only just begun thinking about it and have decided they can't be bothered. Meanwhile the rest of europe have just got on with it.

First class passengers getting free wifi encourages more passengers to upgrade to first class which is where the real money is for IE. For the initial investment IE would get an increase in the % of first class passengers per train forever.

The resulting increase in profits would be a good thing - no?

Wifi on trains would give IE a competitive advantage over short haul flying, Bus Eireann and the private car thus encouraging a modal shift away from the most polluting forms of transport towards the most environmentally friendly - again a good thing.

These points add perspective to the first few pages of this thread where you engaged in childish arguing over the wording of a sentence and argued for the sake of arguing rather than have a proper discussion about the merits or otherwise of wifi on trains.

Having wifi on trains and an efficient service are not mutually exclusive. You can have both. Again everyone else seems to be managing it so why can't IE?

When IE introduced online ticketing and seat reservation years after the rest of europe, were you arguing that the money should have been spent elsewhere? If so do you still have the same opinion?

OTK

Would a cheap 3g data card not do the same thing? Three mobile sell a data card for 129. You pay a fiver any day you use it. There's not much point in IE providing a service if they can't beat that.

godtabh

aliveandkicking wrote: »

First class passengers getting free wifi encourages more passengers to upgrade to first class which is where the real money is for IE. For the initial investment IE would get an increase in the % of first class passengers per train forever.

What percentage of perople use first class now? Very few compared to the rest of the ticket types. In a day and age were times are getting hard lower fares and being more competive is the way to go. Ryanair have tried using things like film on board as an enstiive to constumers. It didnt work and they dont do it any more. Its a luxury alot of people arent willing to pay for.

aliveandkicking wrote: »

These points add perspective to the first few pages of this thread where you engaged in childish arguing over the wording of a sentence and argued for the sake of arguing rather than have a proper discussion about the merits or otherwise of wifi on trains.

Plenty of opportunity was given to clear up the situation. It wasn't. I simply asked the question.

There are arguments for and against. Many people who posted here arent willing to listen the counter argumnet.

Having wifi on trains and an efficient service are not mutually exclusive. You can have both. Again everyone else seems to be managing it so why can't IE?

They arent mutually exclusive but when money is being diverted from one side to another one will suffer when budgets are limited.

IE can barley manage to get the trains to run on time. Get that right then we can worry about what every one else is doing.

When IE introduced online ticketing and seat reservation years after the rest of europe, were you arguing that the money should have been spent elsewhere? If so do you still have the same opinion?

Online ticketing and seat reservation is directly related to an efficent service. There is no comparison to wifi.

Do you get my the point? spend money on improving the running of the trains not spending money on something that at best is a luxury that most people could easily do without

Rawr

I think the real issue here is the attitude of IE, but also it seems, the way the Internet is sometimes perceived.

Long gone are the days where the web was just a thing of email and websites, it has also now become an important tool of business and life in general. In Business, things are now of VPNs, emails, reports and such. In general life, there are so many things, from the news, to booking Ryanair flights, hell..even this place

If you are able to avail of this tool while riding the train for a few hours, then that can only be a plus, which will make life easier. Even if it is just by a little bit. We have the technology, it can be done.

But this brings me back to IE's attitude. There are many things about our national rail service which needs to be sorted out. The Maynooth info signs are case in point. They have been there for ages, but have never been active along near 90% of this line. Such a small thing such as knowing when the train is coming would make life easier for commuters. But this project seems to have been left aside by IE. Commuters have been left to make do.

I am not saying that IE don't try to make an efficient service, they even pull it off sometimes, and some stations & trains are pretty good. But really, the attitude shouldn't be just to 'make do' and have a just ok service. IE should be gunning for a world-class service like some of our friends in Europe. Anyone who has taken the train in Germany will know that it's a pure joy to travel on their rail network. It's not perfect, but you know that they have made an effort.

In the end that's what counts. IE's attitude should be to make the effort whenever possible, instead of just making do.
/rant

Ham'nd'egger

Rawr wrote: »

I think the real issue here is the attitude of IE, but also it seems, the way the Internet is sometimes perceived.

Long gone are the days where the web was just a thing of email and websites, it has also now become an important tool of business and life in general. In Business, things are now of VPNs, emails, reports and such. In general life, there are so many things, from the news, to booking Ryanair flights, hell..even this place

If you are able to avail of this tool while riding the train for a few hours, then that can only be a plus, which will make life easier. Even if it is just by a little bit. We have the technology, it can be done.

But this brings me back to IE's attitude. There are many things about our national rail service which needs to be sorted out. The Maynooth info signs are case in point. They have been there for ages, but have never been active along near 90% of this line. Such a small thing such as knowing when the train is coming would make life easier for commuters. But this project seems to have been left aside by IE. Commuters have been left to make do.

I am not saying that IE don't try to make an efficient service, they even pull it off sometimes, and some stations & trains are pretty good. But really, the attitude shouldn't be just to 'make do' and have a just ok service. IE should be gunning for a world-class service like some of our friends in Europe. Anyone who has taken the train in Germany will know that it's a pure joy to travel on their rail network. It's not perfect, but you know that they have made an effort.

In the end that's what counts. IE's attitude should be to make the effort whenever possible, instead of just making do.
/rant

Hear hear. It would be nice to have it but it is the least of our worries for now.

Yoda

kearnsr wrote: »

Exactly.

I don't understand why people bitch and moan about something as trivial as wifi on a train when there are much more important issues at hand.

OP who many times would you use the train and how often would you have used the wifi?

I was in Scotland once and there was wifi on the train. What a pleasure! And me a lowly tourist too!

I don't go to Portland, Oregon airport often, but when I do, there is free wifi. They get it. They understand that travel is long and boring and upsetting and tiresome and they offer free wifi.

Hong Kong does. Singapore does. They are civilized.

Seattle doesn't. Dublin sure as heck doesn't. They insist on making money off of travellers. Bah.

Ireland, in general, does about as little as it possibly could to make travel here attractive. Blinkered, in my view.

Yoda

Mind you I'd be happier if the catering on CIÉ weren't so abysmal, too. The coffee and tea they serve is disgusting. In Germany they serve real coffee. :-(

Eric Cartman

i think IE will eventually come back to it,

in other news heres what i saw on the train today : http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pidgeontraincopypo1.jpg

parsi

I'm not that pushed about wifi on the train. Perhaps it would be better if Voda and the like realised that if they had masts to covers the lines then they could take the market that is supposedly out there and then well IE would be saved the grief of disgruntled folk who cannot connect to their wifi etc etc.

I'm not sure what the extent of this is in other countires. I'm sure we can all point to a flagship service somewhere that has had gazillions pumped into it (did someone mention the new AVE line in Spain) but generally what is the situation ?

I've taken the TGV from Paris to Lux a few times and for your first class money you get a bigger seat. That's it. No wifi. In a few places no mobile signal. Then again it is damn fast and oh so smooth...

mayhem#

I've discussed the topic extensively here:

http://tinyurl.com/62rpby & http://tinyurl.com/6b9e3d

Long story short is that it has been done, the demand is there and it doesn't have to costs Irish Rail anything.
The topic made it on to the Last Word show on Today FM yesterday. Let's see how it goes...

E.