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God a figment of an evil imagination?

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24

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    #32
    StormWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭StormWarrior


    JimiTime wrote: »
    i can't believe people indulge in this drivel talk. Bad things have been done in the name of religion, yadda, yadda, yadda. Bad things have been done by people of all sorts throughout the ages. If religion never existed, i guarantee it would be no better! Bad people are the problem not bad religion! End of!

    Yep, but religion is a means that "bad" people use to control the masses. ok, atheist countries do too, but just look at my comment about the pope above.


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    #33
    StormWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭StormWarrior


    Galvasean wrote: »
    I did not know this. Ive been to Norway and they didn't seem all that religious to me.

    Exactly, thats what I'm saying. They are "officially" Christians, but most don't consider themselves to be at all. In fact there has been quite a neo-pagan revival in Norway, in the early 90's many churches across Norway were burned to the ground by the Pagans, as that's exactly what the Christians did to the Pagan sites when they took over.


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    #34
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    PDN wrote: »
    Yes, the Vatican State kills and tortures many more people each year than the humanitarian secular nations of China and North korea. :rolleyes:

    Are you serious?


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    #35
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Are you serious?

    As serious as the OP deserves. ;)


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    #36
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    StormWarrior wrote: »
    As for the vatican being tolerant, I was quite annoyed to hear that the pope declared contraception against church laws despite evidence to the contrary. So the pope would rather have women stuck at home popping a kid out every year, despite the fact that the bible does not demand this. Very tolerant of him.

    Do you actually understand what 'toleration' means?

    The pope does indeed teach (wrongly, in my opinion) that Catholics should not practice contraception. However, the Church has no mechanism for forcing Catholics to obey this teaching.

    Do you really want to equate a guy saying, "By the way guys, you really shouldn't wear a condom, but if you do decide to do so there's absolutely nothing I will do to stop you." with what happens in China and North Korea?


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    #37
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    JimiTime wrote: »
    i can't believe people indulge in this drivel talk. Bad things have been done in the name of religion, yadda, yadda, yadda. Bad things have been done by people of all sorts throughout the ages. If religion never existed, i guarantee it would be no better! Bad people are the problem not bad religion! End of!

    And I can't believe you don't understand that by encouraging people not to think but to follow a philosophy founded in violence and bigotry, the christian religion provides a mechanism that is wide open to exploitation by bad people in the pursuit of bad ends.


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    #38
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    PDN wrote: »
    Do you really want to equate a guy saying, "By the way guys, you really shouldn't wear a condom, but if you do decide to do so there's absolutely nothing I will do to stop you." with what happens in China and North Korea?

    Well of course that isn't really what the pope says, is it? What he actually says is "If you wear a condom you commit a sin for which you will burn in hell for all eternity", which you will agree would be a powerfully persuasive argument for people who believe in such nonsense. But as usual you prefer to skirt around the unacceptable face of christianity.


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    #39
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    rockbeer wrote: »
    And I can't believe you don't understand that by encouraging people not to think but to follow a philosophy founded in violence and bigotry, the christian religion provides a mechanism that is wide open to exploitation by bad people in the pursuit of bad ends.

    I do indeed understand it, and its not just the religions of christendom. But do you really believe that there would be nothing in its place if it wasn't there? Patriotism, nationalism can be just as expoitative. As I said, bad people will use and create whatever means they can. Religion has been and is one of those means, I'm not denying that. However, its lazy to just say its all religions fault. IMO.


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    #40
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    JimiTime wrote: »
    As I said, bad people will use and create whatever means they can. Religion has been and is one of those means, I'm not denying that. However, its lazy to just say its all religions fault. IMO.

    I think is true, its like if someone killed someone with a hammer and it was argued that it was the hammers fault the victim was killed. Religion just happens to be a tool that bad people can abuse to get power and do bad things, however you must wonder what it is about religion that makes it such a useful tool for bad people to use for this purpose.


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    #41
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    however you must wonder what it is about religion that makes it such a useful tool for bad people to use for this purpose.

    1. It encourages people follow rather than to think for themselves. Once habituated to obeying orders, how are they then supposed to be able to work out whether what they are following is right or wrong?

    2. It creates a ready-made group of outsiders (those that don't believe as we do - those who don't follow our revealed 'truth') to persecute, victimize and ostracize. cf the inquisition.

    3. As far as the judeo-christian religions are concerned, intolerance and violence are woven deep into their very fabric.

    @ JimmyTime - just out of interest, what and when were the last acts of genocide committed in the name of Buddhism, Hinduism or Jainism? Or even paganism? You can try to exempt christianity from culpability on the grounds that all religions are susceptible to the same problem, but this isn't true. It's largely confined to the judeo-christian religions, I would suggest because of the fundamentally violent nature of their deity.


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    #42
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    rockbeer wrote: »
    @ JimmyTime - just out of interest, what and when were the last acts of genocide committed in the name of Buddhism, Hinduism or Jainism? Or even paganism? You can try to exempt christianity from culpability on the grounds that all religions are susceptible to the same problem, but this isn't true. It's largely confined to the judeo-christian religions, I would suggest because of the fundamentally violent nature of their deity.

    Honestly, I don't know. You are right though, the judeo-christian religions have defo brought great shame on themselves over the years, and still do. Its nothing to do with God though. Again, thats a lazy leap. Someone in a position of power, lets say the pope, who has gained power and obedience over people. He firstly has to 'abuse' the scriptures in order to authorise things such as the crusades. these same men were having affairs and children while condemning such behaviour. This is certainly the work of men, and not the work of God. That man can be so bad, and that other men will follow is indeed a great shame. However, Christ is aware of who his flock is. Thankfully, he doesn't care for people of power, but rather for the heart of individuals. Such individuals have been victims of these professing christians etc themseves.


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    #43
    StormWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭StormWarrior


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Honestly, I don't know. You are right though, the judeo-christian religions have defo brought great shame on themselves over the years, and still do. Its nothing to do with God though.

    Uh, the Christian God is always punishing the naughty, smiting people, wiping out whole civilizations.... and you say it's nothing to do with God that Christians have often done the same?


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    #44
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Honestly, I don't know. You are right though, the judeo-christian religions have defo brought great shame on themselves over the years, and still do. Its nothing to do with God though. Again, thats a lazy leap.

    No, it's not a lazy leap. It's a recognition of what's actually written in christian scripture. All the bits that christians don't much like to think about, the bits they say 'don't count' any more... You know the stuff I'm talking about. The casual misogyny, the genocides, the brutal punishments, the incitements to sacrifice, yadda yadda yadda as you'd put it.

    The trouble with following a faith with a long history, such as christianity, is that all of its history informs its present. Justifications for every evil carried out in the name of christianity are right there in the bible. Not only that, but as a book of some record the bible records countless acts of violence committed in the name of god.

    This is the legacy modern christians have inherited, and they face a real problem when they try to distance themselves from it. Some retreat behind the 'new covenant', conveniently ignoring the contradiction in the infallible word of god having turned out to be so wrong after all. As though all that horror can just be dismissed as god's early period or something. Like it was his rebellious teenage years. (Duh.. this is god we're talking about. Was he right or not?) Others shy away from the elephant in the corner, pretending it's somehow not relevant, blame 'bad individuals' who in fact were only doing what the good book said.

    But to be honest, all that's just kidding yourself. You might not like it but those bad people were just following the bits of the bible you prefer to pretend weren't actually there. It's all written down in black and white and the consequences are a matter of historical record. Wishing won't make it go away.


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    #45
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    rockbeer wrote: »
    No, it's not a lazy leap. It's a recognition of what's actually written in christian scripture. All the bits that christians don't much like to think about, the bits they say 'don't count' any more... You know the stuff I'm talking about. The casual misogyny, the genocides, the brutal punishments, the incitements to sacrifice, yadda yadda yadda as you'd put it.

    The trouble with following a faith with a long history, such as christianity, is that all of its history informs its present. Justifications for every evil carried out in the name of christianity are right there in the bible. Not only that, but as a book of some record the bible records countless acts of violence committed in the name of god.

    This is the legacy modern christians have inherited, and they face a real problem when they try to distance themselves from it. Some retreat behind the 'new covenant', conveniently ignoring the contradiction in the infallible word of god having turned out to be so wrong after all. As though all that horror can just be dismissed as god's early period or something. Like it was his rebellious teenage years. (Duh.. this is god we're talking about. Was he right or not?) Others shy away from the elephant in the corner, pretending it's somehow not relevant, blame 'bad individuals' who in fact were only doing what the good book said.

    But to be honest, all that's just kidding yourself. You might not like it but those bad people were just following the bits of the bible you prefer to pretend weren't actually there. It's all written down in black and white and the consequences are a matter of historical record. Wishing won't make it go away.

    i certainly don't wish it would go. But any idiot with an axe to grind can assert what you have. still a lazy leap.


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    #46
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    StormWarrior wrote: »
    Uh, the Christian God is always punishing the naughty, smiting people, wiping out whole civilizations.... and you say it's nothing to do with God that Christians have often done the same?
    nah,its not the god,its the people who claim the god does such things.
    poor old thor could be the god of flowers and pretty things, and not of war. we're taking what humans say as fact.


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    #47
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    JimiTime wrote: »
    i certainly don't wish it would go. But any idiot with an axe to grind can assert what you have. still a lazy leap.

    Mods, isn't this verging on the personal?

    JimiTime, the old axe-to-grind argument. Give me a break. Try engaging with the facts rather than resorting to personalizing the discussion.

    You know, it was this sort of thing that made me swear off this forum before. You make a reasoned, reasonable, culturally informed argument, you back it up with evidence and everything, and for your trouble you get called a lazy idiot by someone who admits to believing in an all-powerful invisible man on a cloud who can create a universe but can't even get it together to write a book that says what he means in an unambiguous fashion.


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    #48
    StormWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭StormWarrior


    Nerin wrote: »
    nah,its not the god,its the people who claim the god does such things.
    poor old thor could be the god of flowers and pretty things, and not of war. we're taking what humans say as fact.

    I'm not talking about Thor though, I'm only speaking here of the Christian God, and all this stuff is in the bible.


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    #49
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    StormWarrior wrote: »
    I'm not talking about Thor though, I'm only speaking here of the Christian God, and all this stuff is in the bible.
    ¬_¬
    gods are gods.
    the christian gods characteristics are described by his followers. Thor was just an example.


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    #50
    StormWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭StormWarrior


    Nerin wrote: »
    ¬_¬
    gods are gods.
    the christian gods characteristics are described by his followers.

    That's exactly what I was saying when I started this thread!


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    #51
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    StormWarrior wrote: »
    That's exactly what I was saying when I started this thread!
    and im somewhat agreeing with ya :)
    i wouldnt say all religious countries vs secular ones are better/worse. you cannot generalise.


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    #52
    StormWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭StormWarrior


    Nerin wrote: »
    i wouldnt say all religious countries vs secular ones are better/worse. you cannot generalise.

    True, that was just one part of the point I'm trying to get across but couldn't be arsed to type so much earlier. I mean, take the whole Christian theory of hell. Surely only humans (the ones with slightly unpleasant minds) could come up with the theory that some will be tortured for all eternity for the mildest of transgressions. If that's not a figment of an evil imagination I don't know what is!


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    #53
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    StormWarrior wrote: »
    True, that was just one part of the point I'm trying to get across but couldn't be arsed to type so much earlier. I mean, take the whole Christian theory of hell. Surely only humans (the ones with slightly unpleasant minds) could come up with the theory that some will be tortured for all eternity for the mildest of transgressions. If that's not a figment of an evil imagination I don't know what is!
    if it is wrong,as in only an imaginary place, then i'd see it as a very logical theory to scare simple folk into joining their religion


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    #54
    StormWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭StormWarrior


    Nerin wrote: »
    if it is wrong,as in only an imaginary place, then i'd see it as a very logical theory to scare simple folk into joining their religion

    Yes but it's still a figment of an evil imagination!


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    #55
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    StormWarrior wrote: »
    Yes but it's still a figment of an evil imagination!
    evil is bit of a stong word.
    i wouldnt call an organisation using slightly false advertising to be evil...


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    #56
    StormWarrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭StormWarrior


    Nerin wrote: »
    evil is bit of a stong word.
    i wouldnt call an organisation using slightly false advertising to be evil...

    Even when they strike the fear of hell into the minds of the simple folk? Anyway, they must be at least a bit mean and twisted to come up with such a concept.


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    #57
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    StormWarrior wrote: »
    Even when they strike the fear of hell into the minds of the simple folk? Anyway, they must be at least a bit mean and twisted to come up with such a concept.
    if as i suggested it was marketing, yeah, thats pretty mean and messed up. Preying on anyone is messed up. ive more of an issue however with going into a place, taking their traditions and corrupting it so the transition over to their religion is easier.
    grinds my gears
    as far as im concerned,if a religion wants to threaten eternal damnation on its followers, its their business to believe it.


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    #58
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    rockbeer wrote: »
    Mods, isn't this verging on the personal?

    JimiTime, the old axe-to-grind argument. Give me a break. Try engaging with the facts rather than resorting to personalizing the discussion.

    You know, it was this sort of thing that made me swear off this forum before. You make a reasoned, reasonable, culturally informed argument, you back it up with evidence and everything, and for your trouble you get called a lazy idiot by someone who admits to believing in an all-powerful invisible man on a cloud who can create a universe but can't even get it together to write a book that says what he means in an unambiguous fashion.

    i suppose I'll just wait for the mods so. If you call yourself an idiot with an axe to grind, then i supose it was personal to you. i didn't define you as that though. i certainly think your thinking was lazy. And i do think that any idiot with an axe to grind can assert what you did. As for entering into a debate with you, well, no. I would assess such a debate as an exercise in time wasting, for both of us. you seem a bit too all guns blazin.


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    #59
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    JimiTime wrote: »
    i certainly think your thinking was lazy.

    That's three times you've said that now, but you still haven't explained how.


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    #60
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Three times, now whose being lazy?


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    #61
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    StormWarrior wrote: »
    Have you ever noticed that the more religious a society is, the more cruel and punishing the justice system is towards even minor "crimes"? For example, Saudi Arabia is going to give a university professor 150 lashes for sitting in a cafe with a woman he was not related to.

    On the other hand, the more secular a country, the more humanitarian they are, and the more the justice system focuses on rehabilitation rather than sheer punishment. For example, Sweden. Swedes try to remould the criminals to make them fit to enter society again, without abusing them unnecessarily.

    It often seems that religious people are more cruel-minded and punishing than atheists. So perhaps this is why the God of the bible is so "fire and brimstone" and torment forever without hope of redemption, just for punishment's own sake. Maybe the people who wrote it were just cruel and enjoyed thinking of others being tortured?
    I think it is incredibly naive to say this after the 20th century. The most secular states were those which wrought the worst violence: The USSR, China, and Nazi Germany. They had pretty punishing justice systems.

    Also, eternal punishment is not the true teaching of the Bible.


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