The Yanks Are Coming.ahhhh

the_pits

Executives from one of the biggest casino operators in the world have been lobbying government departments about changes to gambling legislation - while dangling the possibility of building a €350 million resort casino here, which would create 2,000 jobs.


http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=32811-qqqx=1.asp

5starpool

Saw an article about this in the Sunday business post alright last weekend. I really doubt that it will happen here though.

mormank

i for one think this is bad news for the irish poker scene...would probably mean the end for alot of casinoes and independant operators

Killme00

brown paper bag backhanders anyone

Interesting that the casino space only takes up 10% of the resort. If it creates 2000 jobs and improves the leisure industry in this coutry, it can only be a good thing, cant it?

twasantis

brian cowen + brian lenihan jnr= strong chance something like this might actually be possible

imo

El Stuntman

Sunday Business Post wrote:

a 200300 room four-star hotel

that is one big-ass hotel...:pac:

Mr.Plough

ffs title was misleading.

Ollieboy

this would be great for the country and it was miss opportunity 20 years ago. Europe is missing a mini vegas style resort and with all the direct connection and cheap airlines into Dublin, it would be a excellant location. The only drawback it the weather.

The only reason it got reject last time was due to the wealthy dicks in Castleknock, Ireland miss out on some massive tourism revenue and jobs and we would also have had a national arena by now and conference centre if it had been allowed which as costs this country about 250 million a year, plus the costs of building all this stuff now.

The government might take up the opportunity now after the Brits chicken out of doing it, but I doubt it some how. I dont see anyother country been interest, but Europe really needs its own Vegas. Asia currently as it at the Macua

lee_arama

By Richard Curran? That's Des Curran's younger brother (TV3 guy). Must be him. Only Richard Curran I know.

lee_arama

If Ireland doesn't take up this opportunity (or one similar to it in the future) then you can be sure that some place like Poland or Estonia surely will.

A super-casino like this (I know it's really a leisure facility) can only be a good thing for our economy.

We'll see what Biffo has to say on the matter further down the line but it'd be nice if Ireland got it's own Vegas type town; it'd be like Disney and Celebration, but without the Mouses and Ducks and Pirates and stuff.

phantom_lord

Mr.Plough wrote: »

ffs title was misleading.

+1

Mellor

Ollieboy wrote: »

The government might take up the opportunity now after the Brits chicken out of doing it, but I doubt it some how. I dont see anyother country been interest, but Europe really needs its own Vegas. Asia currently as it at the Macua

lee_arama wrote: »

If Ireland doesn't take up this opportunity (or one similar to it in the future) then you can be sure that some place like Poland or Estonia surely will.

Close, but wrong country.
Construction has started in Slovakia on a HUGE scheme. It includes everything, office, retail, hotel, and a casino. Its also an irish developer, (developer, not the final occupier mind)

hotspur

On balance I disagree that it would necessarily be good for the economy. I've read most economic analyses that have been written on casinos, and while the methodology of cost benefit studies is a controversial area , I am very unconvinced of the economic benefits of casinos to society in all but the most unique of situations.

I balk at the idea of Ireland being a mini Vegas or Macau, remember you cannot do these things by half, one casino resort from Harrah's in Ireland would not have lots of people flying in from other countries *just* because of that imo. It's the difference between having one prostitute working in an apartment and the Amsterdam red light district. The latter will get people traveling just for it and it will bring in money, but is it something you really want here? Only going very big will work from an international visitor persepective.

One of the best things about Vegas is that it is somewhere else - a strange, wonderful, exotic and foreign place that you can visit. But under the surface there are *so* many problems in Vegas that I would hate that kind of thing to be visited upon Ireland as any kind of comparable large gambling resort.

Britain's flirtation with the idea of huge regional casinos was a fundamentally bad one from day one and has been rightfully shelved. It's incredible the ignorance that exists at the level of policy makers on the economics of casino gambling, they base it entirely on what the industry tells them in terms of economic benefits. And it's always disingenuous.

Here's summary points of what gambling economics researcher Earl Grinols submitted 5 years ago to the American administration on the economics of gambling:
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Facts%20and%20Answers/Grinols-Summary-30APR0311.pdf

Theresalwaysone

hotspur wrote: »

On balance I disagree that it would necessarily be good for the economy. I've read most economic analyses that have been written on casinos, and while the methodology of cost benefit studies is a controversial area , I am very unconvinced of the economic benefits of casinos to society in all but the most unique of situations.

I balk at the idea of Ireland being a mini Vegas or Macau, remember you cannot do these things by half, one casino resort from Harrah's in Ireland would not have lots of people flying in from other countries *just* because of that imo. It's the difference between having one prostitute working in an apartment and the Amsterdam red light district. The latter will get people traveling just for it and it will bring in money, but is it something you really want here? Only going very big will work from an international visitor persepective.

One of the best things about Vegas is that it is somewhere else - a strange, wonderful, exotic and foreign place that you can visit. But under the surface there are *so* many problems in Vegas that I would hate that kind of thing to be visited upon Ireland as any kind of comparable large gambling resort.

Britain's flirtation with the idea of huge regional casinos was a fundamentally bad one from day one and has been rightfully shelved. It's incredible the ignorance that exists at the level of policy makers on the economics of casino gambling, they base it entirely on what the industry tells them in terms of economic benefits. And it's always disingenuous.

Here's summary points of what gambling economics researcher Earl Grinols submitted 5 years ago to the American administration on the economics of gambling:
http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Facts%20and%20Answers/Grinols-Summary-30APR0311.pdf

Post more.

NickyOD

mormank wrote: »

i for one think this is bad news for the irish poker scene...would probably mean the end for alot of casinoes and independant operators

Not necessarily a bad thing to be honest. 80% of them are totally crap. I'll take a well run super casino over my local any day, even if it means a lot of traveling.

ArmaniJeanss

Just for the sake of balance, here is a rebuttal of some of Grinols research by the American Gaming Association (obviously a vested interest).
http://www.americangaming.org/Press/press_releases/press_detail.cfv?id=143

example.
"The arguments presented by Professor Grinols border on sophistry. They draw upon mysterious sources without citations, carry heavy innuendo of lurking evils, and present unsubstantiated ‘findings’ to reach their conclusions in a clear attempt to strike out the spread of gambling"

example.
The micro study (Economic Impacts of Casino Gaming in the United States Volume 2: Micro Study, May 1997), which examines in detail three new jurisdictions (Biloxi/Gulfport, Mississippi; Shreveport/Bossier City, Louisiana; and Joliet, Illinois), clearly validates the fact that unemployment, Aid to Families with Dependent Children, food stamps, and crime (in most places), have all decreased since gaming was introduced.
The micro study also clearly establishes that capital investment, retail sales and general economic growth have boomed in these new jurisdictions since gaming was introduced and have not in any way been negatively affected by the alleged social costs.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote: »

Not necessarily a bad thing to be honest. 80% of them are totally crap. I'll take a well run super casino over my local any day, even if it means a lot of traveling.

a massive casino that got a monopoly would be really terrible for poker, they wouldn't have to make any effort to be competitive and would be happy to screw the punters because they know the real money is elsewhere.

ask anyone who has ever been to Star City in Sydney.

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote: »

a massive casino that got a monopoly would be really terrible for poker, they wouldn't have to make any effort to be competitive and would be happy to screw the punters because they know the real money is elsewhere.

ask anyone who has ever been to Star City in Sydney.

Possibly, but how long has Star City been there and is it owned by Harrah's? Any super-casino coming to Ireland would have to realise they are coming into a previously unregulated, poker savvy market where the punters will have high expectations. It's unlikely they'd get away with any **** that has been tried in Sydney. From what I hear the Australian players are generally poker meat-heads.

The majority of Irish cardrooms really suck. Outside of Dublin they are mostly struggling financially and rely on a very small group of degenerates. Clubs like these are driving people back to playing on-line. In a desperate attempt increase turnover my local club even affiliated themselves with an online site encouraging people to go home and play to generate rake for them. WTF? I have been to my local club once in over two months and I don't think Valor has ever been, but we would obviously go to a place with a selection of good live games.

They just don't offer any value, they're poorly run with maybe only one tournament a month of any great value (if that) and most clubs are somehow surviving on just one, and occasionally two, cash tables, five or six nights a week.

If we want a real value alternative to playing online then a super-casino would be the only one IMO.

hotspur

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Just for the sake of balance, here is a rebuttal of some of Grinols research by the American Gaming Association (obviously a vested interest).
http://www.americangaming.org/Press/press_releases/press_detail.cfv?id=143

There is a very vibrant academic debate about the cost benefit analysis of casino gambling, and I'm happy to see counterpoints and evidence, but the AGA cannot really be considered a part of the *real* debate. I am not predisposed to disliking the AGA, but they really do go on like the Church of Scientology at times in their attacks of criticism of gambling. I know their method very well as this stage. But what can you expect from the casinos themselves?

Unfortunately the industry funds rubbish studies in relation to economic effects. Their scope only includes collecting evidence of economic benefits. The study they cite by Arthur Anderson accountants was commissioned by the AGA, and only focuses on the benefits. Here's what they say about not even attempting to look at the costs:

"In addition, this study makes no attempt to analyze the socioeconomic effects of casino gaming, because such effects are largely based on anecdotal evidence and credible and verifiable data on those effects do not exist. We did not attempt primary research because such effects, both positive and negative, are particularly difficult to quantify on a macroeconomic basis."

Translation - we were paid by the AGA to write about the positive effects of casino gambling, so that's what we did, also we are not academics or gambling studies researchers so we haven't a clue how to actually carry out such a socioeconomic study...because it's 'particularly difficult', lol.

Headspace

Of course it would be good for poker having a super casino with a bezillion poker tables under one roof and good for poker players with all the new fish and large tourneys in this casino. But how can it be good for the ordinary Irish man or woman who will be the casinos main customers, not foreigners. Gambling is fun when you win but we all know how it feels when we loose which is what the majortey will be doing. Casinos are not good for the economy there is an increase of sex shops, prostitution and crime where these things crop up. Addiction is a killer why would we want to see people giving there wages to big multi nationals every week, just the fact that they are here to make money says they have to take more money out of the econmey than they put in!!!

Glowingmind

NickyOD

Headspace wrote: »

there is an increase of sex shops, prostitution and crime where these things crop up.

People keep saying this and I just don't get it. Haven't ever seen any hookers or sex shops around Merrion Square and lord knows BCB has tried finding them.

YULETIRED

NickyOD wrote: »

People keep saying this and I just don't get it. Haven't ever seen any hookers or sex shops around Merrion Square and lord knows BCB has tried finding them.

Up tha road from the fitz there are plenty, I remember as I was walking toward the baggot street area after playing the Fitz one night
A mini skirted prossie calls over to me, Hey do you want to have some fun.?. Do you have a DECK OF CARDS? I asked her....

jayhawk

It is not fully instructive to compare the growth and socio-economic effects of casino operations in the United States with what might happen somewhere else.

Gambling in the States is fundamentally controlled at the state level, with an overlay of federal wire and banking laws and regulations, municipal codes and the odd never-never land of “Indian” properties , which operate to some degree outside all other systems, under a Bureau of Indian Affairs, and in somewhat of a judicial vacuum.

So Las Vegas has little in common with Atlantic City which has little in common with Foxwoods or the Mississippi Gulf.

What they do have in common is that political leaders in all jurisdictions need to raise public funds, and sin taxes on things like cigarettes and booze and gambling go down well with voters, who do not like to see taxes raised on income, property or goods and services, and who resist public debt by voting against specific bond issues. The jobs and tourism aspects are always promoted, and always over-valued.

The most interesting thing about the spread of casino gambling in the United States is that it is now culturally acceptable, a very new phenomenon, and basically a trade-off to avoid increased personal taxation. The reality of tax avoidance will be temporary. But the cultural shift is permanent.

What Ireland does will define, or re-define, its culture, as well. As a non-native, my perception is that the beauty of the way Ireland works is that many things are left undefined. There’s a lot of wiggle room left in the political and judicial processes. There’s not an immediate answer to every question. There’s always an avenue of appeal, room for discretion. (This would not be true in the States. There’s a rulebook for everything and somebody knows where it is.) But if a big casino operation comes here, there will no longer be any room for flexibility. Ireland will have to decide where it stands. And write it down. Everyone involved will demand it; too much will be invested to settle for ambiguity.

There are always good arguments over whether a particular law or regulation might make you more or less free -- laws tell you what you can do, as well as can't -- but there's no avoiding that once written, things are going to be different, and turning the clock back is going to be difficult.

Headspace

NickyOD wrote: »

People keep saying this and I just don't get it. Haven't ever seen any hookers or sex shops around Merrion Square and lord knows BCB has tried finding them.

Vegas is known for prostitutes the increase in theses things is something i read and chose to believe. Personally as a poker player i would like to see it going ahead but would it be good for the economy and the general public -NO. Casinos do not create wealth only for there owners and i cant see it bringing much wealth from overseas, is this venture really going to have a positive effect on the general population of the area?

ocallagh

Ollieboy wrote: »

this would be great for the country and it was miss opportunity 20 years ago. Europe is missing a mini vegas style resort and with all the direct connection and cheap airlines into Dublin, it would be a excellant location. The only drawback it the weather.

The only reason it got reject last time was due to the wealthy dicks in Castleknock, Ireland miss out on some massive tourism revenue and jobs and we would also have had a national arena by now and conference centre if it had been allowed which as costs this country about 250 million a year, plus the costs of building all this stuff now.

The government might take up the opportunity now after the Brits chicken out of doing it, but I doubt it some how. I dont see anyother country been interest, but Europe really needs its own Vegas. Asia currently as it at the Macua

I'd hate to have a mini vegas out near the M50, It would never work. Vegas is great because it's uniqe, contained, fun to visit but great to get the **** away from. Also, the main reason Vegas works is because of the sheer size of it - it's constantly changing, it's massive and overkill - try get Dublin City COuncil to approve some of the stuff they do over there. Recreating a mini vegas goes against everything that's good about it. Take Atlantic City as an example.

Goodluck2me

YULETIRED wrote: »

Up tha road from the fitz there are plenty, I remember as I was walking toward the baggot street area after playing the Fitz one night
A mini skirted prossie calls over to me, Hey do you want to have some fun.?. Do you have a DECK OF CARDS? I asked her....

i remember landing in vegas last year, some woman i'd never met asked me did i want to sleep with her for $50, I told her I wasn't tired but i could do with the money.

YULETIRED

goodluck2me wrote: »

i remember landing in vegas last year, some woman i'd never met asked me did i want to sleep with her for $50, I told her I wasn't tired but i could do with the money.

yeah that's nuthin, I met this lovely girl in the US many moons ago , we had a great old time in the scratcher, in my hotel room, Afterwards I had a shower and when I came out my money was gone from my wallet and in it's place a note, It said. "I'm sorry I realise you didn't know but I'm a hooker and I know a man of your scruples would never sleep with a hooker, even a high class one like myself" . "So my charge is 1500 dollar and I'm taking it , it's just business no offence".

I felt dirty and was completely broke, . I fell back on the bed in dismay , then I felt a pices of paper under my pillow. It read " I may be a high class hooker but I AM A WOMAN TOO and OMFG that was AMAZING..... so here is your 1500 back plus please ring this number ANYTIME you are in town - Candy.

a snippet from the anti-blog.

Killme00

YULETIRED wrote: »

a snippet from the anti-blog.

You should write a blog, it would finally be someone to rival the mystic musing of El Stuntman. You could call it "El Doppelganger Blog"

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote: »

Possibly, but how long has Star City been there and is it owned by Harrah's? Any super-casino coming to Ireland would have to realise they are coming into a previously unregulated, poker savvy market where the punters will have high expectations. It's unlikely they'd get away with any **** that has been tried in Sydney. From what I hear the Australian players are generally poker meat-heads.

It's been around a while and it's not owned by Harrah's but by Tab who are like an Australian Tote. They treat poker players even worse than Harrah's.

It sounds like your problem is there isn't a good local cardroom, you have to travel a long way to find one. But that would be just the same with a supercasino built, as it most likely would be, in Leinster. Or do you really expect to have your own Las Vegas in the hills of Donegal?

Mellor

Headspace wrote: »

Casinos are not good for the economy there is an increase of sex shops, prostitution and crime where these things crop up.

State a source pease. A real source, not I read it and believe it.

Headspace wrote: »

Vegas is known for prostitutes the increase in theses things is something i read and chose to believe.

Vegas is possibly the worst example you could have used.

Prostitution is legal in Nevada. But only in certain towns, the deciding factor is size, Vegas is too large, so they are illegal there.
Obviously the massive amount of hookers in vegas is illegal, but that is easily explained by the legal hookers in the surrounding towns and cities travelling to vegas as thats where the punters are.
It has nothing to do with casinos, poker, or gambling.

If the state of ew York made prostitution legal everywhere except NYC, then NYC would have alot of hookers. As thats where the punters are, (for the record, theres no gambling allowed in New york state)


Other major prostituted hotposts include Amsterdam and Thailand.
There is little gambling in amsterdam, it is illegal for private companies to be provide any sort of gambling. Sportsbooks are illegal also. Thailand likely has everything, somewhere.

Addiction is a killer why would we want to see people giving there wages to big multi nationals every week, just the fact that they are here to make money says they have to take more money out of the econmey than they put in!!!

That last part could be applied to most companies FFS.