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The Mind and The Paranormal

  • 07-05-2008 01:23PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭


    Im still waiting for science to prove where my mind is, but that doesnt mean I dont have one.


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    iamhunted wrote: »
    Im still waiting for science to prove where my mind is, but that doesnt mean I dont have one.

    Maybe instead of sitting back waiting for science to be so condescending, you go read a book on neuroscience and see the insurmountable evidence that the mind is a product of the brain.


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Also science has rather conclusively proven your mind is in your brain.
    As someone who is beginning to study psychology (as an amateur, not a student) could you recommend what to read to find out more about that theory above?

    I think its clear from what I post here that I am a believer in certain elements of the paranormal. However, I have a rational brain (mostly) and if by some weird chance I was creating these effects myself, I would want to know how Im doing it and whats going on. This is why Ive begun to learn about psychology, to see if what I do has a purely psychological basis, or not. Further study of the mechanisms of the brain would complement that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    KtK wrote: »
    As someone who is beginning to study psychology (as an amateur, not a student) could you recommend what to read to find out more about that theory above?

    I think its clear from what I post here that I am a believer in certain elements of the paranormal. However, I have a rational brain (mostly) and if by some weird chance I was creating these effects myself, I would want to know how Im doing it and whats going on. This is why Ive begun to learn about psychology, to see if what I do has a purely psychological basis, or not. Further study of the mechanisms of the brain would complement that.

    Not a psychology buff but I'd imagine any book on neuro-science. All also the fact personality, memory and behaviour can be changed by damage to the brain.

    But there are several well studied psychlogical effect that explain many apparent paranormal effects.
    http://skepdic.com/ideomotor.html
    http://skepdic.com/subjectivevalidation.html
    http://skepdic.com/selectiv.html
    http://skepdic.com/wishfulthinking.html
    http://skepdic.com/placebo.html
    http://skepdic.com/magicalthinking.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    Zillah wrote: »
    Maybe instead of sitting back waiting for science to be so condescending, you go read a book on neuroscience and see the insurmountable evidence that the mind is a product of the brain.

    i think you'll find science still debates where the brain resides. Theres a lot of discussion on the subject. Condescending indeed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    Also science has rather conclusively proven your mind is in your brain.

    for gods sake people, really. thats just so debatable. - afaik, there is as yet no undisputable proof that the brain and mind are separate. just one of those things science has theories about but no absolute proof. Bit like the big bang theory.

    I fear for the world you know when people just believe everything they're told.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    iamhunted wrote: »
    for gods sake people, really. thats just so debatable. - afaik, there is as yet no undisputable proof that the brain and mind are separate. just one of those things science has theories about but no absolute proof. Bit like the big bang theory.

    I fear for the world you know when people just believe everything they're told.

    Pray tell were exactly is the mind then?
    Your probably thinking of the soul which is a completely different thing all together.

    Your right there is no indisputable proof for anything except in math and logic.
    However there is really good evidence for hypotheses.

    Theory in the scientific sense of the word does not mean random idea.
    The word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature that is supported by many facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.

    Remember evolution and gravity are theories but it is acceptable to say the fact of gravity or the fact of evolution.

    Also technically its still called the round earth theory and the helio-centric theory.

    Its rather far fetched to always assume every scientist is lying when they show evidence contrary to your person beliefs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    Pray tell were exactly is the mind then?
    Your probably thinking of the soul which is a completely different thing all together.

    Your right there is no indisputable proof for anything except in math and logic.
    However there is really good evidence for hypotheses.

    Theory in the scientific sense of the word does not mean random idea.
    The word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature that is supported by many facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.

    Remember evolution and gravity are theories but it is acceptable to say the fact of gravity or the fact of evolution.

    Also technically its still called the round earth theory and the helio-centric theory.

    Its rather far fetched to always assume every scientist is lying when they show evidence contrary to your person beliefs.

    No - im thinking of the mind. if the mind and soul are the same - well thats a completely different theory.

    I made the statement that I was waiting for science to tell me where my mind was (so obviously I dont know myself so cant answer your question). I was being told science knows the mind is in the brain - Im just saying science doesnt actually know that.

    For example, if I lost my memory, a scientist couldnt say 'dont worry, I know where your subconcious mind is, I'll dig those memories back out for you.' If science knew just where the mind resided, then someone could do that. Ergo you cant really say "Also science has rather conclusively proven your mind is in your brain."

    Its rather far fetched to believe someones unproven theory because they class themselves as a 'scientist' - one may as well just believe everything one is told and not think for oneself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    iamhunted wrote: »
    No - im thinking of the mind. if the mind and soul are the same - well thats a completely different theory.

    I made the statement that I was waiting for science to tell me where my mind was (so obviously I dont know myself so cant answer your question). I was being told science knows the mind is in the brain - Im just saying science doesnt actually know that.

    For example, if I lost my memory, a scientist couldnt say 'dont worry, I know where your subconcious mind is, I'll dig those memories back out for you.' If science knew just where the mind resided, then someone could do that. Ergo you cant really say "Also science has rather conclusively proven your mind is in your brain."

    Its rather far fetched to believe someones unproven theory because they class themselves as a 'scientist' - one may as well just believe everything one is told and not think for oneself.

    well concider the fact that injury to the brain and defects in the make up of the brain effects what you would class as the mind, memories, personality, bevehaviour language motor function.
    Many of the areas in the brain which control these faculities are known but not well mapped.
    Emotional responses as well as sensory ones can be detected by an EEG.
    Also Just because a doctor is unable to fix certain injuries does not mean the theory is invalid. (medically the brain is very hard to repair). That logic is the same a s saying i cannot fix this clock therefore it does not run on clockwork.
    Evidence is out there if you would just look at the research.
    I wouldn't call it an unproven theory that the mind is a product of the brain.
    But If what you say is true, were is the mind?
    So why is it you believe in the unproven theory of ghosts and what not when haunting have been disproven again and again?
    But really the mind/body debate is much more suited to another discussion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭???


    Wow this thread moved fast!!! If paranormal effects are real they're fairly easy to test for. No physical effect can be untestable or impossible to be explain using science. I'd be very interested in getting involved in the testing.

    The mind/brain things... The two theories (used loosly) are that the mind is a physical and chemical product of the brain or that the mind is seperate to the brain (dualism). Dualism is totally discredited and very few people believe it outside of religous neurologists who need a seperate "soul" to fit in with their faith. As El_mariachi said the theory is easily testable. If you suffer brain damage does your 'mind' (personality/reasoning/memory) change and the answer is a definite yes. If the mind is seperate to the brain then their would be no change. Claims that the mind resides in the brain and gets damaged as well are unscientific and untestable. They are only proposed by the aforementioned religous people who require the mind be part of the soul and not the body.


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    ??? wrote: »
    Wow this thread moved fast!!! If paranormal effects are real they're fairly easy to test for. No physical effect can be untestable or impossible to be explain using science. I'd be very interested in getting involved in the testing.

    The mind/brain things... The two theories (used loosly) are that the mind is a physical and chemical product of the brain or that the mind is seperate to the brain (dualism). Dualism is totally discredited and very few people believe it outside of religous neurologists who need a seperate "soul" to fit in with their faith. As El_mariachi said the theory is easily testable. If you suffer brain damage does your 'mind' (personality/reasoning/memory) change and the answer is a definite yes. If the mind is seperate to the brain then their would be no change. Claims that the mind resides in the brain and gets damaged as well are unscientific and untestable. They are only proposed by the aforementioned religous people who require the mind be part of the soul and not the body.
    This probably needs splitting to another discussion but I have a completely unproven, unscientific idea with regard to the brain, mind issue. Consider the brain to be the physical machine that carries out the actions of the mind (rather than vice versa, as science sees it). We utilise and are, to an extent, energy. I take a wild leap and consider the mind to be an energy that inhabits the same space, but is not the brain itself. Allow then another huge reach, that the energy of the mind controls the brain in some way yet to be understood. Then, if the brain is damaged, or the unknown connection between the mind and brain is disconnected, then the mind is still intact, but the instruction of the will is not passed to the physicality of the brain. Far fetched, ill give you, as I said, Im a spiritualist, not a scientist. But I find it an interesting theory. If it were true it would explain a lot about soul, and the mind surviving death.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    If you suffer brain damage does your 'mind' (personality/reasoning/memory) change and the answer is a definite yes. If the mind is seperate to the brain then their would be no change.

    this really is getting off topic - but thats a tad simplistic. Like, are my arm and spine the same thing? Nope, obviously not - but if you break my spine then theres a good chance my arm wont work .... science doesnt understand enough abuot the mind or the brain yet to work out definitely the relationship between both. there are theories which say that both could be reliant on the other - but as I say, as yet (unless someone can point me in the right direction and I dont mean a book talking about what some scientists believe - i'd prefer some form of scientific fact/theory) there is no definitive proof either way. Bit like the paranormal.

    Anyway - have you had any offer yet then danny?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭???


    KtK wrote: »
    This probably needs splitting to another discussion but I have a completely unproven, unscientific idea with regard to the brain, mind issue. Consider the brain to be the physical machine that carries out the actions of the mind (rather than vice versa, as science sees it). We utilise and are, to an extent, energy. I take a wild leap and consider the mind to be an energy that inhabits the same space, but is not the brain itself. Allow then another huge reach, that the energy of the mind controls the brain in some way yet to be understood. Then, if the brain is damaged, or the unknown connection between the mind and brain is disconnected, then the mind is still intact, but the instruction of the will is not passed to the physicality of the brain. Far fetched, ill give you, as I said, Im a spiritualist, not a scientist. But I find it an interesting theory. If it were true it would explain a lot about soul, and the mind surviving death.

    Tad confused. Energy is the ability for something to do work. It is a measurable scalar quantity. It's unit being the Joule. It's not some mystical undifineable thing.

    Also I know I can't attack your beliefs but man are they huge leaps. It is an entirely untestable idea with zero prior plausability. There's also the huge false premise about a) the existance of a soul (unscientific and untestable) and b) the mind surviving death (see previous brackets).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭???




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    iamhunted wrote: »
    For example, if I lost my memory, a scientist couldnt say 'dont worry, I know where your subconcious mind is, I'll dig those memories back out for you.' If science knew just where the mind resided, then someone could do that.

    No not at all. There's a huge difference between being able to say where something is and being able to exert effective control over something. We know, for example, exactly where many specific genes are in the chromosome, but that by no means implies that we yet have the capacity to directly control those genes or their effects. A neuroscientist could tell you in quite a lot of detail exactly what parts of the brain control experiences such as love or anger, but that doesn't neccessarily mean we can control who loves who.

    The mistake you're making is assuming that understanding results in control. Understanding is a requirement for control, but is not the same thing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    iamhunted wrote: »
    this really is getting off topic - but thats a tad simplistic. Like, are my arm and spine the same thing? Nope, obviously not - but if you break my spine then theres a good chance my arm wont work .... science doesnt understand enough abuot the mind or the brain yet to work out definitely the relationship between both. there are theories which say that both could be reliant on the other - but as I say, as yet (unless someone can point me in the right direction and I dont mean a book talking about what some scientists believe - i'd prefer some form of scientific fact/theory) there is no definitive proof either way. Bit like the paranormal.

    Anyway - have you had any offer yet then danny?
    Thats the thing this idea of the mind being in the brain is not just a few scientist stating the fact, its backed up by experiment and evidence. There is very convincing proof that the mind is contained in the brain.

    Why is it that you are willing to believe anecdotal and inconsistent evidence of haunting yet not in good scientific, verifiable and confirmable evidence in neuroscience?

    There is not any convining proof for the existance of any paranormal phenomenon.
    Several types of phenomenon have been disproved very convincingly
    If paranormal phenomenon did exist there would be conclusive proof especially for phenomenon that people claim to be able to produce.
    This is why i would like to see someone take the test. This is how you get evidence, by experiment.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    I've moved these posts over from the thread about Randi's challenge, and taken the liberty of editing some posts to remove bits specific to that thread. Please let me know if I've missed anything.

    Thanks,
    Steve.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    Rupert Sheldrake is well worth looking at I have a couple of his books but you really need to set time aside to read them. His site has experiements you can do etc as well as podcasts and videos of experiments.

    The books I have are:

    The Evolutionary Mind
    Conversations on Science, Imagination & Spirit
    by Rupert Sheldrake, Terence McKenna & Ralph Abraham



    A jam-session of the mind, an intellectual movable feast…… Stimulating and often startling discussions between three friends, all highly original thinkers: Rupert Sheldrake, controversial biologist, Terence McKenna, psychedelic visionary, and Ralph Abraham, chaos mathematician. Breaking out of paradigms that retard our evolution and exploring new possibilities, they venture where few have gone before taking their readers on an exciting journey of discovery.


    The Sense of Being Stared At
    by Rupert Sheldrake


    In his latest book, biologist Rupert Sheldrake explores the intricacies of the mind and discovers that our perceptive abilities are stronger than many of us could have imagined. Most of us know it well - the almost physical sensation that we are the object of someone’s attention. Is the feeling all in our head? And what about related phenomena, such as telepathy and premonitions? Are they merely subjective beliefs? Basing his conclusions on years of intense research, Sheldrake argues persuasively in this compelling, innovative book that such phenomena are real.


    He has a few more that I'll get to eventually.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭MooseJam


    people who don't believe the mind is the brain, where do they think it is ? in our big toe maybe ?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    I think that when people are discussing the location of the mind they are discussin whether our conciousness is completetly composed of the biological functions of the brain, or whether there is something more to it than that.

    It's just quicker and easier to type "location of the mind" :p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th




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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭El_mariachi


    stevenmu wrote: »
    I think that when people are discussing the location of the mind they are discussin whether our conciousness is completetly composed of the biological functions of the brain, or whether there is something more to it than that.

    It's just quicker and easier to type "location of the mind" :p

    But that is the "is there a soul debate" which is completely different and subject for metapsyhical debate rather than scientific.

    Terrence Mc Kenna was a bit of a nut job and not who most people would go to on matters of neuroscience.

    Rupert Sheldrake hypotosis was tested and discredited.
    http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-09/staring.html
    http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-09/09806guess.html

    And as for "quantum consciousness" it all ways bugs me when people use quantum mechanics to explain supernatural stuff. Invariably they are talking out their arse but most people haven't the knowledge to properly debate matters of quantum mechanics.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭mossieh


    iamhunted wrote: »
    i think you'll find science still debates where the brain resides. Theres a lot of discussion on the subject. Condescending indeed.

    I think most people have a fair idea of where the brain resides.










    :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    Im just going to jump in on this one for the hahas. If by mind you mean your "being" (personality, individuality ect). Its pretty much entirely located withing the grey mass in your noggin. Take for example the case in the 1900's. The name escapes me as I havnt taken a class in psychology in two years (minor as part of my degree). An iron rod shot up and pentrated his frontal lobe. He survived but his entire personality changed, previously mild mannered he bacame iratalbe and violent. Ergo his altered brian altered his mind.

    The origin of paranormal phenomenon originating in the brain is much more comprehensive than paranormal phenomenon originating in "other worlds"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭???


    Sabotage wrote: »

    Ahhh!!!! I was wondering when someone would call quantum. It's pretty much the latest buzzword in pseudo-science because 99% of people don't have any clue what it's about and it sounds cool. In brief, quantum effects:
    a) Have no bearing what-so-ever on the macroscopic world (the one we live in!). They are very odd and confusing and apply at subatomic levels. Even single atoms are too large for quantum physics.
    b) Are detectable. Quantum effects can be detected. If the brain was a 'quantum computer' it would be possible to be demonstrated by experimentation.

    Also the brain is a chemical system. That is why alcohol and cat urine have affects on you. They don't opperate on a quantum level. If the brain was a quantum system chemical drugs would have no effects, you'd have to shoot high speed electrons at your head!!!

    Calling quantum physics is pretty much calling magic. The twisted understanding these people have of theoretical physics is utterly astounding. You'll note that no theoretical physicist hase ever suggested quantum as an explanation for psychic or the like, only biologists do!!!(joke)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    The problem is that a lot of people have dug themselves the hole of thinking of mind as a kind of energy field.

    Once they think in these narrow terms they are forced to wonder where this energy resides. They can't shake themselves of this view so they are perplexed.

    The word mind has several meanings. I think the one most relevant here is the collection of attributes we associate with a person e.g. personality, intelligence, empathy, self-awareness and so on. If someone has these we are happy to say they have a mind. Here, mind is something that is produced by the brain but is not the brain itself.

    It is not a physical object but a pattern of activity we recognise as mind when we see it in others. We can recognise mind even when we have no idea what physical system is producing it such as communicating in text over the internet.

    How does the brain produce these patterns? The idea that a brain, a piece of meat, should produce any form of pattern seems amazing yet this has been explained by neuroscience through the action of the neuron. What neuroscience is a long way from explaining is every aspect of human behaviour but the principle of how neurons process information and produce output patterns is no longer a mystery. It has been shown that any form of computation can be produced by simplified models of the neuron.

    But in order to appreciate these ideas we must let go of these New Age energy ideas which are blocking understanding.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Sunn


    I was researching the holographic paradigm recently.

    heres a link that relates to this topic.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holonomic_brain_theory


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    There is very convincing proof that the mind is contained in the brain.

    seriously - where is this convincing proof? And for those of you who can only answer with things like 'of course the mind is in the brain' -


    also - back to the injured spine theory ... just because someone gets a brain injury and their mind is affected, doesnt mean their mind is in their brain.
    How does the brain produce these patterns? The idea that a brain, a piece of meat, should produce any form of pattern seems amazing yet this has been explained by neuroscience through the action of the neuron. What neuroscience is a long way from explaining is every aspect of human behaviour but the principle of how neurons process information and produce output patterns is no longer a mystery. It has been shown that any form of computation can be produced by simplified models of the neuron.

    again, i think whats happening is we have too little information and are making too massive a statement on it. this can go on for ever but i dont think anyone on here will be able to show that science is all as one on the topic of the mind.

    unless of course that "convincing proof" shows up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    iamhunted wrote: »
    also - back to the injured spine theory ... just because someone gets a brain injury and their mind is affected, doesnt mean their mind is in their brain.


    I guess thats like saying if someone injurs their leg and cant walk dosnt mean you walk with your legs.

    If what you define as the mind is damaged when the brain is damaged .... then its pretty much the link between them both . I think thats pretty conclusive unless of course my theory of the paranormal rested on the fact that the mind isnt part of the brain.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭???


    iamhunted wrote: »
    also - back to the injured spine theory ... just because someone gets a brain injury and their mind is affected, doesnt mean their mind is in their brain.

    Your anology is totally false. The arm is a physical object. The reason damaging the spine can affect the arm is neural pathways may be damaged. Likewise brain damage can affect the arm. However, the arm itself can be damaged. You can break it or whatever while doing absolutely nothing to the spine, brain or the rest of the nervous system (except for intense pain, but no physical damage to them). The mind cannot be affected without affecting the brain. The mind as a product of the brain theory would be blown right out of the water if someone could prove you could affect the mind without affecting the brain. No one has done this, which is pretty compelling evidence for the mind caused by brain.
    seriously - where is this convincing proof? And for those of you who can only answer with things like 'of course the mind is in the brain'


    See above! That is just one line of evidence. Even things that don't physically damage the brain, like alcohol, but instead react chemically with parts of the brain can affect memory, recall, temperment and all the rest of the mind stuff. That is 'convincing proof' that the chemicals in the brain play a major part of the mind.

    Brain imaging shows that when subjects are asked to remember something, one part of their brain lights up. When they are asked to lie another part lights up, the same with when they are made experience an emotion or exposed to pain. This shows that things the mind supposedly control have a physical and distinct part of the brain dedicated to them.

    Now I'm not a neurologist so I am unfamiliar with the more complex lines of evidence but we have jointly presented three of the simpler ones. There is not one scrap of real evidence supporting the dual hypothesis let alone multiple lines.

    again, i think whats happening is we have too little information and are making too massive a statement on it. this can go on for ever but i dont think anyone on here will be able to show that science is all as one on the topic of the mind.

    There is plenty of information and the statement is a tiny one. The choice is obvious between mind product of the brian and dualism. One has all the evidence the other has... nothing!
    All as one? Every single respected neurologist and neuroscientist has accepted the mind as a product of the brain (anyone know a shorter version?!) theory for the last 20 years! The only neurologists who propose the dualism hypothesis are those who try to force the science onto their beliefs, like Deepak Chopra.
    Criticisms of dualism have been very successful in modern science, and few if any neuroscientists would consider taking such a position. Scientists commonly assume that only the physical, and thus measurable, is real. Mental states and processes are viewed as biological states and processes.

    unless of course that "convincing proof" shows up.
    Presented above!




    EDIT: Oh just noticed Sheldrake had been brought up, he has experiments (thorughly debunked but he stands by them) showing that dogs are psychic. Yes little Fido can psychically tell when their owner will arrive back. Just a reccomendation that everyone bears that in mind if they're tempted to read his stuff and think about whether accepting it at face value is adviseable!

    Please ignore the condecsending tone! Irony is a pain to type!!!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭MooseJam


    where do the people who think there is doubt that the mind is the brain think it is, and if it's not the brain then what is the brain for, balast lol , seriously I thought I'd heard it all after reading the creationist thread but it appears there are people with ideas to top that


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