Israel Independence Day!....Whats your thought?

Suff

Israel Independence Day
Today marks Israel's "independence day" celebrations in Mount Hertzel in Jerusalem.

imho it should be called "Occupation Day"...

I would like to know whats your thoughts on this.

mike65

My thought is that Israel has every right to mark the day as it is an independent state which achived that status on a particular date.

If you would like to bang on about other matters then start a thread.

Mike.

wes

Israel has every right to celebrate there successful ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians via expulsion and murder to create a Jewish state.

[sarcasm]Who wouldn't want to celebrate such a monumental achievement?[/sarcasm]

LordSutch

Lets not start a thread about a 'Celebration' of Israel's independence & then start knocking her, specially on this day .............

Well done & congratulations to Israel & her people, may she continue to flourish & prosper in the face of hostility & provocation.

Kev_ps3

Occupation Day is the real name for that farce.

wes

ArthurF wrote: »

Lets not start a thread about a 'Celebration' of Israel's independence & then start knocking her, specially on this day .............

So we should just ignore the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousand of Palestinians, which the founder of Israel are responsible for? Simply put, the creation of the state of Israel and what the Palestinians call "Al Nakba" are one and the same event and this should be pointed out. Criticism of Israel on this day is appropriate as many will do there best to ignore the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

This is the perfect time to talk about this. The celebration of ethnic cleansing is quite frankly disturbing and the fact that there are people who think this should be ignored is profoundly disturbing.

ArthurF wrote: »

Well done & congratulations to Israel & her people, may she continue to flourish & prosper in the face of hostility & provocation.

Of course Israel provocation should be ignored. Driving out the native populace was never going to end well. Something Zionists (and there defenders) will always ignore.

Suff

The creation of Israel resulted in establishing a troubled region for over 60 years. Just think of this...If Isreal didn't exist would you have the cliche terms used today to describe the region? "Terrorism", "Freedomfighters" and "islamic extremists"...it all resulted of Israel.

I recommend people view the links in my sig to understand the real issue here.

wes

Suff wrote: »

The creation of Israel resulted in establishing a troubled region for over 60 years. Just think of this...If Isreal didn't exist would you have the cliche terms used today to describe the region? "Terrorism", "Freedomfighters" and "islamic extremists"...it all resulted of Israel.

I think your overstating Israel effect on the region. A lot of that stuff would most certainly exists in some form. Remember that Arab dictators are responsible for the unrest in there own nations. All the problems in the Middle East are not Israels fault.

Now, the Palestinians on the other hand would not be living in refugee camps and not suffering due to Israel actions. It can easily be shown that Israel creation resulted in misery for Palestinians, which continues to this day.

meditraitor

Independence is the self-government of a nation, country, or state by its residents and population, or some portion thereof, generally exercising sovereignty.

The term independence is used in sorkaray contrast to subjugation, which refers to a region as a "territory" —subject to the political and military control of an external government. The word is sometimes used in a weaker sense to contrast with hegemony, the indirect control of one nation by another, more powerful nation

Maybe it should be called SUBJUGATION DAY

Manic Moran

Two different issues. The simple creation of the country did not automatically result in four wars and a bunch of occupations.

NTM

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

Two different issues. The simple creation of the country did not automatically result in four wars and a bunch of occupations.

NTM

Yes, yes it did. The Nakba and the creation of Israel are one of the same. The wars that followed were just a continuation of the first one in 1948.

Attempts to pretend otherwise is to make excuses for what Zionists did to the Palestinians.

mikeindublin

I was happy and proud to attend Israeli independence celebrations at the Ballsbridge COurt Hotel in Dublin last night. There was a small group of protesters outside shouting abuse at guests as we arrived, but, there were as many Gardai as protesters.

wes

mikeindublin wrote: »

I was happy and proud to attend Israeli independence celebrations at the Ballsbridge COurt Hotel in Dublin last night. There was a small group of protesters outside shouting abuse at guests as we arrived, but, there were as many Gardai as protesters.

So your proud to celebrate the independence of an Apartheid state? A state that ethnically cleansed 1000's of Palestinians. Good to know.

rowlandbrowner

ArthurF wrote: »

may she continue to flourish & prosper in the face of hostility & provocation.

Israel has invaded and occupied Lebanon and Palestine, they literally wiped Palestine off the map. Their benefactors the United States have used its veto power to prevent resolutions concerning Israel from passing through the Security Council on 42 occasions.

The Israeli population have every right to have a national day of independence, but considering the countries history what you said is not only inaccurate but offensive.

humberklog

Congratulations. A special thanks for Tel aviv. (Best gay breakaway destination). Beautiful country, I'd fully recommend a trip. Could be an eye opener for many that post on this thread. As reading about a country and seeing is very different. Beautiful fertile land where once was desert. Anni yo'ev attak.Shababa.

wes

humberklog wrote: »

Congratulations. A special thanks for Tel aviv. (Best gay breakaway destination). Beautiful country, I'd fully recommend a trip. Could be an eye opener for many that post on this thread. As reading about a country and seeing is very different.

Did you go to the occupied territories? How about refugee camps in other states in the Middle East?

Does visiting Israel change the reality magically?

humberklog wrote: »

Beautiful fertile land where once was desert.

The old Zionist saying. Of course this is untrue, as Palestinians were farming the lands before the creation of the state of Israel. Sure it was poor, but the Palestinians were living there and it was there home.

ivan087

mike65 wrote: »

My thought is that Israel has every right to mark the day as it is an independent state which achived that status on a particular date.

If you would like to bang on about other matters then start a thread.

Mike.

just like it had every right to force over 4 million people off their land, destroy their houses and not pay them a penny. happy independence day israel!

LordSutch

Its oh so eash for narrow minded blinkered peasants to knock something they know nothing about!

I spent the best part of a year in Israel, and I can assure you that the Israeli people are good honest hard working people ~ admittedly there is always an air of Military disipline (obligatory National service) but for obvious reasons ~ lest some Palistinian extreme nutters decide to try & wipe israel off the map 'again' ....

Israel really is a Jewel created by Israelis for Israelis, long may she prosper in the face of provocation 'suicide bombs' & Anti Jewish bile, much of which comes from this lovely little island

ivan087

ArthurF wrote: »

Lets not start a thread about a 'Celebration' of Israel's independence & then start knocking her, specially on this day .............

Well done & congratulations to Israel & her people, may she continue to flourish & prosper in the face of hostility & provocation.

hope you're being sarcastic! read your history from 1947/48, then you might understand why there is hostility and provocation. try thinking WHY they face hostility and provocation. it is a pity the palestinians are not given the chance to 'flourish and prosper.'

humberklog

ArthurF wrote: »

Its oh so eash for narrow minded blinkered peasants to knock something they know nothing about!

I spent the best part of a year in Israel, and I can assure you that the Israeli people are good honest hard working people ~ admittedly there is always an air of Military disipline (obligatory National service) but for obvious reasons ~ lest some Palistinian extreme nutters decide to try & wipe israel off the map 'again' ....

Israel really is a Jewel created by Israelis for Israelis, long may she prosper in the face of provocation 'suicide bombs' & Anti Jewish bile, much of which comes from this lovely little island

Good man arthur. Thankfully someone that's actually been there. It's a very impressive country.

wes

ArthurF wrote: »

Its oh so eash for narrow minded blinkered peasants to knock something they know nothing about!

The ethnic cleansing of Palestine is a fact. As are all the Palestinians living in refugee camps. To ignore these facts is being "blinkered".

ArthurF wrote: »

I spent the best part of a year in Israel, and I can assure you that the Israeli people are good honest hard working people ~ admittedly there is always an air of Military disipline (obligatory National service) but for obvious reasons ~ lest some Palistinian extreme nutters decide to try & wipe israel off the map 'again' ....

No, one said Israeli's weren't nice people or anything like that.

Zionists wiped Palestine off the map, when it drove the Palestinians from there home land.

ArthurF wrote: »

Israel really is a Jewel created by Israelis for Israelis, long may she prosper in the face of provocation 'suicide bombs' & Anti Jewish bile, much of which comes from this lovely little island

The old accusation of racism, coming from someone defending an apartheid state, that has Jewish only roads.

humberklog

wes wrote: »

Did you go to the occupied territories? Yes. How about refugee camps in other states in the Middle East? No.

Does visiting Israel change the reality magically? No.

Yes. I trained in civil engineering in the IDF and brought water mains to west bank.
No.
No.
Have you?

wes

humberklog wrote: »

Yes. I trained in civil engineering in the IDF and brought water mains to west bank.

Well, then your well aware of the illegal occupation and Jewish only roads then. Something you conveniently ignore. Also, you fail to mention the vast majority of water goes to illegal Zionist colonists.

Then there is this:

From Independent.co.uk article by Johann Hari:

But I can't do it. Whenever I try to mouth these words, a remembered smell fills my nostrils. It is the smell of ****. Across the occupied West Bank, raw untreated sewage is pumped every day out of the Jewish settlements, along large metal pipes, straight onto Palestinian land. From there, it can enter the groundwater and the reservoirs, and become a poison.

Pretty horrible state of affairs for Palestinians. Of course, so many here would rather ignore this and pretend Israel is great and when this kinda crap is happening.

humberklog wrote: »

Have you?

Can't say that I have.

ivan087

ArthurF wrote: »

Its oh so eash for narrow minded blinkered peasants to knock something they know nothing about!

I spent the best part of a year in Israel, and I can assure you that the Israeli people are good honest hard working people ~ admittedly there is always an air of Military disipline (obligatory National service) but for obvious reasons ~ lest some Palistinian extreme nutters decide to try & wipe israel off the map 'again' ....

Israel really is a Jewel created by Israelis for Israelis, long may she prosper in the face of provocation 'suicide bombs' & Anti Jewish bile, much of which comes from this lovely little island

funny that, since it was the jewish nutters that wiped palestine off the map!

do you just ignore the facts about invading another nation, ethnic cleansing and bloody murder!!!

then, can the republic of ireland just march up to northern ireland and start knocking people out of their houses, because let's face it, it was ours a while back! no, no, no that just sounds like ethnic cleansing!!!!!!!!!!!

LordSutch

wes wrote: »

The ethnic cleansing of Palestine is a fact. As are all the Palestinians living in refugee camps. To ignore these facts is being "blinkered".

'Ethnic Cleansing' me posterior (crapp)!

If you are going to use such an emotive term as 'ethnic cleansing' then at least use it in its correct context, like when Six Million Jews were 'ethnically cleansed' off this planet!

humberklog

wes wrote: »

Well, then your well aware of the illegal occupation and Jewish only roads then. Something you conveniently ignore. Also, you fail to mention the vast majority of water goes to illegal Zionist colonists.

Then there is this:



Pretty horrible state of affairs for Palestinians. Of course, so many here would rather ignore this and pretend Israel is great and when this kinda crap is happening.



Can't say that I have.

Nothing conveniently ignored nor failed to mention. As this and every other woe gets dragged up in every thread regarding Isreal then why would I? I don't see it from the OP as kicking off in that direction. You may,I don't. If it was I'd choose to read the thread and not comment. That's my choice.
Personally I thnk that a lot of the arguement against Isreals activities gets lost among the hubris as every thread regarding Isreal gets taken down the same avenue each and every time. It kinda loses it. If the thread jackers had the imagination to create a thread that was more specific to their gripes than their opinions would carry more impitus.

ivan087

ArthurF wrote: »

'Ethnic Cleansing' me posterior (crapp)!

If you are going to use such an emotive term then at least use it in its correct context, like when Six Million Jews were 'ethnically cleansed' off this planet!

sorry, i didn't know we were talking about numbers. and yes i am using an emotive term to describe simple fact. i think you really, really need to read some history of the period. i'm talking about plain simple facts. by the way arthurF, here is a definition of ethnic cleansing:

Ethnic cleansing refers to various military policies or military practices aimed at achieving security during war through displacement of an ethnic group from a particular territory. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing

am i still wrong, or should i use less 'emotive terms'. my posterior indeed...

Kev_ps3

humberklog wrote: »

Congratulations. A special thanks for Tel aviv. (Best gay breakaway destination). Beautiful country, I'd fully recommend a trip. Could be an eye opener for many that post on this thread. As reading about a country and seeing is very different. Beautiful fertile land where once was desert. Anni yo'ev attak.Shababa.

Gays and jews! (gets my nuclear bomb)

wes

ArthurF wrote: »

'Ethnic Cleansing' me posterior (crapp)!

If you are going to use such an emotive term then at least use it in its correct context, like when Six Million Jews were 'ethnically cleansed' off this planet!

I never said Genocide. Ehtnic cleansings and Genocide have different meanings.

Genocide Definition

The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.

Definition of Ethnic cleansing

the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.

As you can see the 2 terms mean different things. So you entire post is utter nonsense.

humberklog

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Gays and jews! (gets my nuclear bomb)

Cracker!
But yep there's a lot good about the region. Great gay scene, women vote, drink booze, wear what they want...eh exact same as here. Very different from other countries in the region.

wes

humberklog wrote: »

Nothing conveniently ignored nor failed to mention. As this and every other woe gets dragged up in every thread regarding Isreal then why would I? I don't see it from the OP as kicking off in that direction. You may,I don't. If it was I'd choose to read the thread and not comment. That's my choice.
Personally I thnk that a lot of the arguement against Isreals activities gets lost among the hubris as every thread regarding Isreal gets taken down the same avenue each and every time. It kinda loses it. If the thread jackers had the imagination to create a thread that was more specific to their gripes than their opinions would carry more impitus.

You are congratulating Israel on being a great country as others are. I disagree and I am providing examples of how thats not the case. Hardly hijacking anything. Why shouldn't Israel treatment of Palestinians not be brought up? Your trying to make Israel out to be a normal country, when it is an apartheid state. I think its appropriate to mention that, especially when people are praising an apartheid state.

Anyway, the Nakba and the creation of the state of Israel are events that are linked. I don't see how one can seperate them. So bringing it up is essential in this discussion imho.

LordSutch

I find it really sad that Today of all days, a Thread is opened to celebrate Israel's Birthday, & all we get is this typical Anti-Israel flack from Irish people who are just as unaware of the real circumstances in Israel, as many in the US were unaware of the real circumstances (here on this little island) only twenty years ago ~ je those poor little irish people, lets donate some more money to those nice IRA fellers & help them kill all those nasty English fellers, etc . . . BANG*

At least I was in Israel, I lived in Israel, I know its people & I know the threats & where they come from!

And Yes, I do recognise that Israel & her policies are sometimes harsh & draconian towards the Palistinians, but 'sometimes for good reason too' . . .

So I say again 'Happy Birthday Israel' & to Israeli people all over the World, and thankfully to say that we in Ireland are not all of the 'Anti-Israeli' tribe.

humberklog

wes wrote: »

You are congratulating Israel on being a great country as others are. I disagree and I am providing examples of how thats not the case. Hardly hijacking anything. Why shouldn't Israel treatment of Palestinians not be brought up? Your trying to make Israel out to be a normal country, when it is an apartheid state. I think its appropriate to mention that, especially when people are praising an apartheid state.

Anyway, the Nakba and the creation of the state of Israel are events that are linked. I don't see how one can seperate them. So bringing it up is essential in this discussion imho.

Sure Wes there is a point there(as always). But really... every thread about Israel ends up down the same cul-de-sac and then the discussion turns to an arguement and then any based comment just gets lost. I'm fully aware of the wrongs of Israel. I wouldn't be a fan of its administration over the last 12years. But any intillegent debate keeps getting lost in the anti-israeli ranting. Tellsya if a levelled discussion can't happen on boards think how difficult it is at the coal-face.

wes

humberklog wrote: »

Sure Wes there is a point there(as always). But really... every thread about Israel ends up down the same cul-de-sac and then the discussion turns to an arguement and then any based comment just gets lost. I'm fully aware of the wrongs of Israel. I wouldn't be a fan of its administration over the last 12years. But any intillegent debate keeps getting lost in the anti-israeli ranting. Tellsya if a levelled discussion can't happen on boards think how difficult it is at the coal-face.

This is pretty much how message boards work. You hardly going to have a one way conversation. If you want that, you should start a blog or something.

humberklog

ArthurF wrote: »

I find it really sad that Today of all days, a Thread is opened to celebrate Israel's Birthday, & all we get is this typical Anti-Israel flack from Irish people who are just as unaware of the real circumstances in Israel, as many in the US were unaware of the real circumstances (here on this little island) only twenty years ago ~ je those poor little irish people, lets donate some more money to those nice IRA fellers & help them kill all those nasty English fellers, etc . . . BANG*

At least I was in Israel, I lived & worked in Israel, I know its people & I know the threats & where they come from!

And Yes, I do recognise that Israel & her policies are sometimes harsh & draconian towards the Palistinians, but 'sometimes for good reason too' . . .

Where wre you Arthur? Anywhere nice? Like I said I love tel-aviv but I now stay around ashdod. Always love a trip to Haifa,not the prittiest but damn fine fun. People in Haifa are a lot more 'earthier' than in Tel aviv. I've a few bottles of goldstar and a few packs of Noblesse here. Cracking them open at weekend.

Gobán Saor

I never cease to be amazed at the anti - Israel vitriol in this country. The standard story is 1948, Jews seize Palestinian land, kill and expel Palestinians and steal their land. Its not so simple. In the first half of the 20th century, Palestine (comprising present day Jordan, Israel and the West Bank/Gaza) had both Jews and Arabs living there. Not too many of either (about 750,000 in total) as it wasn't (then) a particularly desirable place to live. The League of Nations appointed Britain to rule the place with a "Mandate" to facilitate Jewish immigration and settlement and create a Jewish state, without prejudice to the rights of other groups living there. Jews arrived in increasing numbers particularly after the Nazis came to power in Germany. They didn't steal anybody's land, they bought land or moved onto unoccupied land - of which there was quite a lot. Inter-community conflict was rife and after WW2, Britain tried to damp it down by restricting Jewish immigration to Israel. This failed and The United Nations drew up a partition plan in 1947 for a Jewish state and an Arab state . While the plan allocated more than 50% of the land area to the Jewish state, most of this was the pretty useless Negev desert. The fertile areas bordering the coast and the river Jordan were pretty fairly divided. Obviously, many Jews lived in the proposed Arab state and many Arabs lived in the proposed Arab state. Impossible to be otherwise. The UN partition plan was accepted by the Jewish leadership in Palestine but was rejected by the Arab League. Attacks on isolated Jewish settlements were common and the Jewish population of Jerusalem was blockaded and besieged by Arab forces. Gradually the Jewish forces came to the realisation that their people were undefendable without capturing more territory and they went on the offensive, securing a larger area. In doing so, they defeated the Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese, Syrian and Iraqi armies who invaded Israel immediately the British withdrew. While many Palestinians did flee the new state many also stayed. Indeed, the most secure Palestinian Arabs today are the 1 million who live in and are full citizens of the State of Israel. They have full civil and political rights and are represented in the Israeli parliament and in the upper ranks of the judiciary. Oppression, I don't think so. They play a full part in Israeli life and are well represented on the country's international soccer team, for instance. Those Palestinian Arabs who fled and came under the rule of their fellow Arabs in Gaza (ruled by Egypt from 1949-1968) or in the West Bank (ruled by Jordan from 1949-1968) have indeed fared badly. Not entirely Israel's fault when you look at the whole picture.

wes

ArthurF wrote: »

I find it really sad that Today of all days, a Thread is opened to celebrate Israel's Birthday, & all we get is this typical Anti-Israel flack from Irish people who are just as unaware of the real circumstances in Israel, as many in the US were unaware of the real circumstances (here on this little island) only twenty years ago ~ je those poor little irish people, lets donate some more money to those nice IRA fellers & help them kill all those nasty English fellers, etc . . . BANG*

Its also the day Palestinians remember as "Al Nakba". A bit insensitive to be congratulating (and throwing a party to celebrate) the nation that drove them out of there country.

ArthurF wrote: »

At least I was in Israel, I lived in Israel, I know its people & I know the threats & where they come from!

Doesn't change anything brought up here. Doesn't change the fact Palestinians were driven from there homes.

ArthurF wrote: »

And Yes, I do recognise that Israel & her policies are sometimes harsh & draconian towards the Palistinians, but 'sometimes for good reason too' . . .

So collective punishment (essentially state terrorism) is ok then.

ArthurF wrote: »

So I say again 'Happy Birthday Israel' & to Israeli people all over the World, and thankfully to say that we in Ireland are not all of the 'Anti-Israeli' tribe.

Again, "Al Nakba" was caused by Zionists who founded Israel. I don't think this should be forgotten.

humberklog

wes wrote: »

This is pretty much how message boards work. You hardly going to have a one way conversation. If you want that, you should start a blog or something.

I disagree. I think the original topic is more adhered to on other forums. Take a look at the 'irish priests at western(I prefer wailing, it's more apt!) wall thread. I laughable topic that took about four threads in befor the brigade waded in.
You may have a point on this thread, it could be the thread for such posting. My point is that every thread everytime doesn't make sense and loses its importance.

djpbarry

ArthurF wrote: »

And Yes, I do recognise that Israel & her policies are sometimes harsh & draconian towards the Palistinians, but 'sometimes for good reason too' . . .

What "good reasons" would they be?

ArthurF wrote: »

So I say again 'Happy Birthday Israel' & to Israeli people all over the World, and thankfully to say that we in Ireland are not all of the 'Anti-Israeli' tribe.

So you're saying that just because it's Israel's birthday, we should all turn a blind eye to the injustices perpetrated in the region?

I am not celebrating Israel's independence, but then I didn't celebrate 4th July when I lived in the US either; that doesn't make me anti-Israeli or anti-American.

humberklog wrote: »

I'm fully aware of the wrongs of Israel.

But nobody else is allowed to point them out?

humberklog wrote: »

I wouldn't be a fan of its administration over the last 12years. But any intillegent debate keeps getting lost in the anti-israeli ranting.

In fairness, I don't think Wes could be accused of ranting; his arguments have been well-made and to-the-point. Just because you don't agree with a point of view, doesn't make it a rant.

wes

humberklog wrote: »

I disagree. I think the original topic is more adhered to on other forums. Take a look at the 'irish priests at western(I prefer wailing, it's more apt!) wall thread. I laughable topic that took about four threads in befor the brigade waded in.

Fair enough, its up to the moderators then. Not you or me.

humberklog wrote: »

You may have a point on this thread, it could be the thread for such posting. My point is that every thread everytime doesn't make sense and loses its importance.

Yes, you have a point, but I am talking about this thread and not others and again "Al Nakba" and the creation of the state of Israel can't be separated. There both the same thing. There are 2 points of view on this event. I see no reason why the Palestinian side should be ignored. I find it odd you seem to think its not relevant.

LordSutch

Looks like its just you & me humberklog fighting off the hoards ......

Oh yes, nobless ciggies bring back memories (great name for a cigarette) but I am no longer a smoker, I lived on Kibbutz Yagur down south, spent time in Tel Aviv, spent a couple of months in Jerusalem, then lived near Haifa & Acko up North^ (where Jews & Arabs live peacefully) Happy memories indeed humberklog, oh yes & I remember Goldstar bier too ..............

humberklog

Although I don't think you have to have been in israel to comment on it it does help. It's a very complex region where history becomes blurred and clear and sometimes all at once. Of all the troubled regions in the world I'd say that Israel is far more understood by a bit of hands on experience. It is a little like describing an orange by its colour without tasting it. I wonder how many people that've spent a bit of time with Israelis in Israel (not back packers in india) have a fully negative view of Israels handling of the situation. What gets my goat moreso is how palastinians are treeted by their arab brothers. Generally disgracefully and more often abysmally. I scratch my head when someone tells me they're going to Dubai for holidays. The same people screamed abuse at S.africa in the '80,s. Dubai was built and is still building on the backs of occassionally enforced slaved labour. Sure no whips and chains, just the threat of starvation and rape of family.

Agent Smith

Happy Birthday Isreal.

humberklog

wes wrote: »

Fair enough, its up to the moderators then. Not you or me.



Yes, you have a point, but I am talking about this thread and not others and again "Al Nakba" and the creation of the state of Israel can't be separated. There both the same thing. There are 2 points of view on this event. I see no reason why the Palestinian side should be ignored. I find it odd you seem to think its not relevant.

I'm not ignoring its relevance I just have neither the time nor 'will' to get involved. Its less fun also. And if being really honest I'd be outta my depth of understanding on a historical level too. I'd be buried in minutes. I'm a 'Jew-lite'.

wes

humberklog wrote: »

Although I don't think you have to have been in israel to comment on it it does help. It's a very complex region where history becomes blurred and clear and sometimes all at once. Of all the troubled regions in the world I'd say that Israel is far more understood by a bit of hands on experience. It is a little like describing an orange by its colour without tasting it. I wonder how many people that've spent a bit of time with Israelis in Israel (not back packers in india) have a fully negative view of Israels handling of the situation.

Great, we know you have been to the occupied territories. Have you lived there? Perhaps those who defend Israel, should live there for a while then, see the other side?

I personally don't think you need to live in either the OT or Israel proper to help understand the situation. However, if you think living in Israel will help matters, then I would suggest those who making that suggestion should live in Gaza or the West Bank then.

humberklog wrote: »

What gets my goat moreso is how palastinians are treeted by their arab brothers. Generally disgracefully and more often abysmally. I scratch my head when someone tells me they're going to Dubai for holidays. The same people screamed abuse at S.africa in the '80,s. Dubai was built and is still building on the backs of occassionally enforced slaved labour. Sure no whips and chains, just the threat of starvation and rape of family.

You were only just complaining about people going off topic. What exactly does Dubai have to do with Israel?

Dubai sucks, I agree and I personally refused to go there myself as people of my ethnicity are treated like ****.

Still the actions of Dubai, don't make Israel better. In fact the actions of that state have nothing to do with Israel.

Btw, aren't you guilty of the same thing you accuse people of in this post then?

I agree the treatment of Palestinians by Arab states is abysmal, kinda shows that the Palestinians have where else to go.

wes

humberklog wrote: »

I'm not ignoring its relevance I just have neither the time nor 'will' to get involved. Its less fun also. And if being really honest I'd be outta my depth of understanding on a historical level too. I'd be buried in minutes. I'm a 'Jew-lite'.

Fair enough, guess I misunderstood what you were getting at.

LordSutch

I watch events in Israel from afar these days humberklog, now that I live in Dublin, but I have fond memories of Israel & I will always raise a glass to Israel & her people at this time of year where ever I am.

Cheers for now humberklog, & 'Happy Birthday Israel'.

Lemming

ArthurF wrote: »

'Ethnic Cleansing' me posterior (crapp)!

If you are going to use such an emotive term as 'ethnic cleansing' then at least use it in its correct context, like when Six Million Jews were 'ethnically cleansed' off this planet!

I've not read the rest of this thread yet, but ArthurF ... might I suggest you go and educate yourself on the definition of ethnic cleansing.

Ethnic cleansing does not equate to genocide although the two can often be found side by side. Ethnic cleansing is the forced clearing of a group or sub-group of people based on criteria such as religion, race, nationality or creed from a region. Whether they are dragged or killed makes little difference. They are forcibly removed.

So, what happened in 1948 and since was and is ethnic cleansing whether you want to face that rather important fact or not. It's your decision on whether or not you want to bury your head in the sand. I'm not going to sugar-coat fact for you. To paraphrase Chomsky at a lecture I attended: "Facts matter, even when you don't happen to agree with them".

meditraitor

ArthurF wrote: »

And Yes, I do recognise that Israel & her policies are sometimes harsh & draconian towards the Palistinians, but 'sometimes for good reason too' . . .

So I say again 'Happy Birthday Israel' & to Israeli people all over the World, and thankfully to say that we in Ireland are not all of the 'Anti-Israeli' tribe.

Apologising for murder doesnt help your point darling

I dont think that because its Independance Day in Isreal that there should be no mention of the horrific crimes carried out in the name of the Jewish people(many of them are not so blind as to deny the crimes of the state and wish what we all wish).

If the state of Isreal would only stop the ethnic cleansing then Im sure we would all gladly wish Isreal a happy Independance day.

But it will not happen because the state of Isreal does not see itself a criminal (even though anyone in their right mind knows what is happening in Palestine is disgusting).

LordSutch

I stand by my criticism of the use of the term 'ethnic cleansing' when used in the above context, otherwise we could all claim to have been ecthnically cleansed by each other . . . The Romans ethnically cleansed the Angles & the Picts?, the European ethnically cleansed the american indian?, the Norseman ethnically cleansed the Celts, the Roman catholic ethnically cleansed the protestants in the border counties, etc etc. you get my drift? ~ the list is endless.

So I would tend only to ues the term 'Ethnic Cleansing' when appropriate as in the Jewish Holocaust . . . darling meditaitor

humberklog

ArthurF wrote: »

Looks like its just you & me humberklog fighting off the hoards ......

Oh yes, nobless ciggies bring back memories (great name for a cigarette) but I am no longer a smoker, I lived on Kibbutz Yagur down south, spent time in Tel Aviv, spent a couple of months in Jerusalem, then lived near Haifa & Acko up North^ (where Jews & Arabs live peacefully) Happy memories indeed humberklog, oh yes & I remember Goldstar bier too ..............

Good point there. Very good neighbours around that area.
Love acre, bit seedy,good boozers and proper arab restuarants. Proper humus,sug and warmed pitta, ancient,ancient ancient place. Good crack taking the wedding boats out and going on the rip. There's afew kibbutz around there, my cousin married a kibbutznic from kibbutz Yasur which's about 4km from there on the Nazereth road. Very pretty for a farm girl. Had the party on the kibbutz, brilliant places,met a few hungarian survivors there too. Very interesting and loads of german jews that had spent the war in n. ireland in munition factories. Great stories. (Not too keen on Nazereth).