9 Gardai 3 squad cars for revenge posse beats up man, 4 face dismissal

lostexpectation

http://www.tribune.ie/article.tvt?_scope=Tribune/News/Home%20News&id=87390&SUBCAT=Tribune/News

A 10-week investigation by the Garda Siochana Ombudsman Commission (GSOC) has almost been completed and it is likely that Garda Commissioner Facthna Murphy will dismiss the officers when he receives the GSOC report.
The alleged incident occurred 24 hours after a garda, walking home after a night out, became involved in an altercation with a 19-yearold member of the public. The garda knew the identity of the individual from the course of his duties and words were exchanged which led to a fight.

A number of punches were exchanged and the 19-year-old got the better of the garda before both parties separated.

The garda reported for duty the following day after the incident and it is alleged that he rounded up eight colleagues who drove to the man's house in three squad cars.

The gardai are then said to have forced their way into the individual's house without a search warrant and the man alleged he was assaulted.

original news report
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/four-gardai-suspended-after-alleged-assault-of-19yearold-1298016.html


this sounds a total outside of duties revenge posse, more judge dredd policing from the gardai.

how many gardai and cars would there be in one of the those city centre stations?

we have to wait to see if anyone actually does get fired. coming after the settlement with the 3 other people assaulted by pearse station guards.

would you feel safe around any gardai.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

If it's true, I hope they do get fired. It's not on and there's no way it should be tolerated if the gardai are to retain any respect.

arcalzo

Sean K and lostexpectation, your IP address is being tracked, and your profiles have been submitted for analysis. The garda siochana is the world's greatest police force, and if anyone thinks otherwise...

mike65

Heh! arcalzo - also posting on indymedia.

Mike.

afatbollix

that was a bit stupid!!!

Liam Byrne

Definitely not the best course of action by the gardai, but am I the only one who thinks that there's not enough emphasis on

1) The garda knew the identity of the individual from the course of his duties
2) it is alleged that he rounded up eight colleagues who drove to the man's house in three squad cars.
3) The gardai are then said to have forced their way into the individual's house without a search warrant and
4) the man alleged he was assaulted.

While I 100% agree that the integrity of the Gardai needs to be protected and any dodgy ones weeded out, do we accept the word of someone - as the phrase goes - "known to Gardai" and (as stated above) "A number of punches were exchanged and the 19-year-old got the better of the garda before both parties separated"

Strange phrasing from a supposed broadsheet there, don't you think ? Sounds very diluted to me......did he assault the Garda ? If so, why didn't the paper just say so ?

If someone throws punches at a Garda then they deserve some punishment at least....why aren't they up for assault ?

Plus, I don't think I'd put much weight behind the allegations or claims without some SERIOUS proof......I think the papers should have waited until the enquiry was complete, or at least put equal weight behind the fact that a Garda was assaulted as the - potentially unfounded - allegations by someone who obviously has a score to settle.

seamus

I have trouble believing that 8 Gardai would all be stupid enough to jump into squad cars and go there and forcibly enter the home and beat the guy up - especially if the Garda who'd been fighting was out drinking. It just doesn't fly. If they were going to do that, they would have organised something outside of working hours and in anonymous vehicles.

Many scumbags are well-known for sticking together on this, and the entire family will claim that half of Dublin's Gardai arrived in ERU vans and knocked down their front wall, and their stories will all be spot-on.

The tribune's write-up says it a bit better. It looks more like they all arrived down to be intimidating to the guy, but then a couple of the Gardai burst into the house and gave your man a hiding, while the rest of them realised what was happening and left. As I say, I would be surprised if all 8 of them in a group would be dumb enough to act like this in such a public way.
I guess we'll need to see the official report to know exactly what happened.

Executive Steve

seamus wrote: »

I have trouble believing that 8 Gardai would all be stupid enough to jump into squad cars and go there and forcibly enter the home and beat the guy up - especially if the Garda who'd been fighting was out drinking. It just doesn't fly. If they were going to do that, they would have organised something outside of working hours and in anonymous vehicles.

have you seen the application tests to get into the gardai?

it's not like you need to be an intellectual giant...

nhughes100

Very believable and the tip of the iceberg imo.

kaizersoze1980

[cm]tyranny wrote: »

have you seen the application tests to get into the gardai?

it's not like you need to be an intellectual giant...

Have you seen the aptitude test? How are you qualified to comment on it? Or are you basing it on hearsay?

You also need to go through an extensive interview process after passing the aptitude test, it's not like once you pass the test you're in :rolleyes:

kaizersoze1980

nhughes100 wrote: »

Very believable and the tip of the iceberg imo.

what are you basing this opinion on?

Liam Byrne

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If someone throws punches at a Garda then they deserve some punishment at least....why aren't they up for assault ?

If by 'up for assault' you mean prosecuted, it should be noted that the Gardai are not being prosecuted either. They are the subject of disciplinary proceedings within the Gardai. And of course they rely on a much lower standard of proof than that required to secure a conviction.

nhughes100

kaizersoze1980 wrote: »

what are you basing this opinion on?

The ever increasing stories about Garda corruption coming to light in the media and the nod nod wink wink way the Gardai operate.

humanji

So, hearsay and conjecture then? I guess those are kinds of evidence...

nhughes100

I think there's plenty of evidence in this case thats neither hearsay of conjecture, the framing case in Donegal and the ever increasing number of people knocked down and killed by off and on duty Gardai that never quite seem to add up.

RedPlanet

seamus wrote: »

Many scumbags are well-known for sticking together on this, and the entire family will claim that half of Dublin's Gardai arrived in ERU vans and knocked down their front wall, and their stories will all be spot-on.

Jeez that sounds just like the Gardai.
Rehearsing their stories, covering their badges, conveniently not remembering events that may be incriminating towards their fellow Gards.
Probably refusing to take statements, loosing the inconvenient statements, doctoring other statements, perjuring themselves under oath, etc, etc.
I'm just trying to figure out which side is worse, scumbags or the Gards.
I mean I can avoid scumbags but sometimes you actually need the Gards.

nhughes100

nhughes100 wrote: »

the ever increasing number of people knocked down and killed by off and on duty Gardai that never quite seem to add up.

Perhaps the Gardai are involved in high speed chases more than your average civilian?

Can't say I've heard of anything 'nod nod wink wink' about those tragedies. I'm sure that if there was anything dodgy about them the families of anyone killed or injured would demand some investigation.

seamus

Difference is that it's a minority of Gardai doing these things who are slowly being exposed and weeded out. The Gardai of today aren't the same force as the one of the 80's - they're not afraid of standing up and exposing corruption in their own force.

Dirk Gently

If it did happen it's more likely to have been unmarked cars and plain clothes. If it was actually 3 marked squad cars then they should be jailed for life for stupidity, perhaps some time off for beating up the scummer.

Macroom Man

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps the Gardai are involved in high speed chases more than your average civilian?

Can't say I've heard of anything 'nod nod wink wink' about those tragedies. I'm sure that if there was anything dodgy about them the families of anyone killed or injured would demand some investigation.

Like the enquiry into the killing of Brian Rossiter? Held behind closed doors and the final report not published.

Macroom Man

Macroom Man wrote: »

Like the enquiry into the killing of Brian Rossiter? Held behind closed doors and the final report not published.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm.

Brian Rossiter died in a cell. It had nothing to do with some nod nod attitude to dodgy driving by gardai.

But it does illustrate my argument that, if there is some dodgy cover up involving gardai and driving, I would have thought the families would look for justice, just like the Rossiters.

purple'n'gold

We all know that you don’t have to have the intellect of a brain surgeon to be a Guard. But this is unbelievable. The stupidity is breath taking. I fervently hope they are dismissed ASAP. What do they think this is, the Wild West?

murphaph

This story doesn't surprise me tbh. I doubt all 8 barged in and kicked the sh!te out of this lad (who may be no angel for all we know but that is totally irrelevant) but having said that I have had enough less than satisfactory dealings with An Garda Siochana of late that I am not confident in them as a force.

The Guards are feared by law abiding decent people and not feared by scumbags. Something is wrong with this and it needs sorting.

oscarBravo

murphaph wrote: »

The Guards are feared by law abiding decent people...

Not by all law-abiding decent people, no.

murphaph

well, I thought it was obvious I was making a generalisation. Of course there are exceptions everywhere but I maintain that most decent people fear the Gardai moreso than respect them.

oscarBravo

Not in my experience. Most people I know respect most Gardaí. Some people I know have had bad experiences.

I wouldn't feel qualified to say what most people think, and I'm not sure how you do.

nhughes100

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps the Gardai are involved in high speed chases more than your average civilian?

Can't say I've heard of anything 'nod nod wink wink' about those tragedies. I'm sure that if there was anything dodgy about them the families of anyone killed or injured would demand some investigation.

There are two recent incidents I can think off with Gardai that resulted in two civilian deaths. One in Tallaght where a squad car hit a guy on New years eve I think, the Garda car was not in pursuit of anyone and had no siren/lights on. The other in which an off duty Garda hit a guy in Lucan in the early hours of the morning. The Garda headed off and they created some cover story about the guy being so drunk he passed out in the middle of the road. There was a prime time special about it where witnesses state that the guy that was killed walked a female friend home just minutes before he "passed out from being so drunk"

I believe both cases are under investigation by the Garda Ombudsman. I'm sure if you ask the families they would believe there is something dodgy going on.

I believe all these to be the tip of the iceberg and the stories that slip through the net of secrecy. Look at all the banking and health scandels, they all start off as little stories like oh we only lost two laptops, sorry 10 laptops and we lost them 6 months ago, there was no unsecured data on them, oh wait a minute there was etc etc. Due to the nature of police work the stories will be harder to come by and are more easily covered up but anyone who thinks that the Gardai are a transparent, open and trustworthy professional police force should look under their pillow the next time they lose a tooth.

seamus

nhughes100 wrote: »

I believe both cases are under investigation by the Garda Ombudsman. I'm sure if you ask the families they would believe there is something dodgy going on.

No doubt. If you look at any thread talking about the Gardai on boards, you'll see that there are a number of people with a particular chip on their shoulder about the Gardai. This is an Irish thing, passed down to some people from the older generations, when the Gardai were seen as tools of the British.

There are two sides to every story - for every Garda who bends the truth and claims that someone was passed out on the road, there are four of five people who will "claim" that they were with that person on the night and he hadn't even been drinking. There are people out there who will make up stuff, purely to cause **** for the Gardai.

I'm not denying that in some cases, Gardai do cover each other's asses, but to claim that the entire force is just an old boy's club of backscratchers (like the hospital consultants) is completely wrong.

If we were in a corrupt police state, none of these stories would even be reported in the media, let alone investigated. The primary reason why it appears that the facts were initially covered up by the Gardai, is because modern journalists are lazy bastards, who will print almost anything in the rush to go to press. So, "Maybe he was lying in the road", is twisted into, "Onlookers claim that the man had collapsed into the road...". Then when the truth comes out, it looks like somebody was lying. Most of the time, it's the journalists who are lying.

nhughes100

Morris Report anyone?

humanji

Probably a bad example to pick, since it's showing that the system works. Those in the wrong have been found.

nhughes100

So the Gardai are now clean? Give me a break. Tip of the iceberg.

humanji

Oh, for f*cks sake. You simply don't get it. The system WORKS!!!!! Corrupt gardai are being found and whittled out. But your blind prejudice doesn't want to accept that there could ever be anyone in any police force that isn't corrupt. Why do you hate them so much? Why do you assume all of them (the several thousand of them) are all the same as the small amount that you hear of in the media (and surely I don't have to point out that the media make more money fromthe juicier stories about police corruption).

Macroom Man

humanji wrote: »

Probably a bad example to pick, since it's showing that the system works. Those in the wrong have been found.

but NOT punished! All bar two walked away with full pensions.

humanji

It's early days yet.

lostexpectation

Probably a bad example to pick, since it's showing that the system works. Those in the wrong have been found.

the reports strongly indicated there are likely to face dismissal and they were suspended immediately and you still have people suggesting the guy who was beaten up was lying.

it should never happened in the first place shows their modus operandi the mindset, you really believe it won't happen again, could a supervising gardai not notice this happen? are any of them and the rest of the gardai up for discipline? and evey gardai apologiser questioning the how the situation happened, why if the main gardai was involved in a altercation with the man did he return to his house the next day? surely he should have written reports giving the info to other gardai and let them handle it.


this idea if you don't do anything you won't come across them but often you can't avoid them and if they choose not to like you then your not safe.

The report finds that several people were mistreated whilst in Garda custody - verbally and in some cases through physical abuse.
http://www.highlandradio.com/news.php?articleid=000002059


there was very little reaction from the docu on frank shortt and the harrassemtn the garda did to the people of his town.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Sixth_Morris_tribunal_report


look at this form the US
cops beating up people they are trying to arrest
http://video.news.sky.com/?videoSourceID=1315206&flashURL=feeds/skynews/latest/flash/beating_u8559_070508.flv
apparently a cop was shot at bank robbery the previous weak so they decided to take it out on people

this idea that police allowed to beat and kill people (cos they were protecting their own safety) must be removed

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/05/06/exclusive-video-tourist-death-in-police-custody-89520-20406924/
no justice

link to morris report
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Sixth_Morris_tribunal_report

oscarBravo

lostexpectation wrote: »

this idea if you don't do anything you won't come across them but often you can't avoid them and if they choose not to like you then your not safe.

The flipside is the assumption that all cops are pigs and that the only people not cowering behind locked doors are the ones who have never met a Garda.

I have dealings with Gardaí on a reasonably regular basis. I haven't had any issues with them. In the main I've found them to be polite and professional, doing a difficult job to the best of their ability.

Based on my experience, I'm not going to claim that there are no problems in the force, but I'm also skeptical of the idea that it's rotten to the core.

murphaph

oscarBravo wrote: »

The flipside is the assumption that all cops are pigs and that the only people not cowering behind locked doors are the ones who have never met a Garda.

I don't believe that is the flipside tbh. It's not unreasonable to state that one believes the force is still pretty unprofessional and needs further reform along the lines of how british forces, which have come a long way (including the PSNI who I find top-notch).

oscarBravo wrote: »

I have dealings with Gardaí on a reasonably regular basis. I haven't had any issues with them. In the main I've found them to be polite and professional, doing a difficult job to the best of their ability.

I also have dealings with them at least once a month. Last time I called to report a theft and the use of a child to steal and I was told "we'll be with you in a few minutes". They never showed up.....and this is not the first time by a long shot!

Secondly, anyone who's worked in the licenced trade (as I did when a student) will tell you of Guards knocking in after hours for a free pint or two. I know-I stood behind the bar and served them as my publican boss wanted them "kept happy", despite cusring them from a height when they weren't around! Not all guards do this-but it happens.

But the worst example I have is one I'm not free to talk about in detail. Suffice to say it was a civil matter involving an alegation of trespass and two giggling ban-Gardai showed up and made complete asses out of themselves as they displayed almost no knowledge of the civil law. I wouldn't have minded them simply saying "it's a civil matter and we don't feel qualified to make comment" but oh no, they made comments including insinuating that I had falsified or could have falsified a deed of administatration (a legal document issued by the probate office!). I was absolutely raging at these two morons being out on the beat by themselves. Muppets!

They are not a professional enough force yet. Must try harder.

turgon

Well to be honest lads, if we didn't have a stupid common law system, and a judicial system as strong as my three legged blind dog, the gardai wouldn't be getting so frustrated. Ill be honest, I wouldn't be totally against forming a vigilante group to clean up the streets. You see all these thugs getting off with suspended sentences, do judges think they will have a change of heart? I don't, a tough action should precipitate a tough reaction.







Now before i get abused I am well aware of the volatility of vigilante groups and that despite my optimism I realize they probably would not work. Probably.

lostexpectation

oscarBravo wrote: »

Based on my experience, I'm not going to claim that there are no problems in the force, but I'm also skeptical of the idea that it's rotten to the core.

name a police force that isn't rotten to the core.

Mr.Micro

I do not believe that the Garda Siochana are rotten to the core, but there is probably an element in the force that would not be considered fair, just or even handed to put it mildly. It seems to be very difficult to convict a Garda in Ireland when a prosecution arises as the jury is usually swayed in thinking that the Gardai are beyond wrongdoing, too many years of unaccountability, forgetting that they the Gardai are there to serve the nation.

Many Judges in the old days used to accept a Garda's word without question over that of a suspect or an accused. I do believe we are still waiting the outcome of McCarthy shooting about 7 years ago, the May day cops all got off despite taking their ids off and beating all before them. A Garda can resign often to avoid prosecution it seems. There is still no REAL effective body to investigate the Gardai. The Ombudsman is a start I guess but many Gardai IMO feel invincible helped by the closed shop of the force. When I was growing up, to become a Garda was one way of getting a job in jobless Ireland, some of the biggest trouble makers, bruisers joined the force, so if my small town was indicative of what makes up the force then many of those ruffians are probably still in the Gardai.

oscarBravo

lostexpectation wrote: »

name a police force that isn't rotten to the core.

Define (clearly) "rotten to the core".

nhughes100

humanji wrote: »

Oh, for f*cks sake. You simply don't get it. The system WORKS!!!!! Corrupt gardai are being found and whittled out. But your blind prejudice doesn't want to accept that there could ever be anyone in any police force that isn't corrupt. Why do you hate them so much? Why do you assume all of them (the several thousand of them) are all the same as the small amount that you hear of in the media (and surely I don't have to point out that the media make more money fromthe juicier stories about police corruption).

Hit a nerve? I don't have any blind prejudice, you don't need 20/20 vision to see whats going on in that force. Some community Gardai and the CAB do a good job but I believe that the Gardai in general and as an institution are a law onto themselves, remember they opposed the Garda Ombudsman giving the line that Oh we think the integrity of the Garda Siochana is being questioned here. Damm right it's being questioned.

Another poster mentioned their lack of professionalism. This is totally right, a few weeks ago I was at a GAA match and parked the car like hundreds of others on a double yellow line, a guy approached me saying the Gardai will clamp u there mate but u can park in here for a fiver, I told him I'd take my chances with the clamp. I told the first Garda I saw and his responce - tell him to fk off. Now imagine an English or American policeman saying that.

They could start by getting a proper uniform and making sure it fits, they need to learn how to be professional and not use the fact that they have a job as a police officer to get them into pubs after hours and get in free to copper face jacks. I was once on a night link that was flagged down by a drunk off duty copper waving his warrent card. The bus driver stopped for him. They need to start being paid properly so we can cut out the overtime scams(no shortage of police at a GAA match/public event, severe shortage most other times) The money a rank and file Garda earns is cat, it they want to attract proper people then they should pay better. There is no proper career structure, they are woefully equiped and the Garda stations are a disgrace. All of the above and more lead me to believe that the whole Garda ethos comes straight from the top. They need to start enforcing petty crimes and showing up in court(or coming up with a system of a statement being admissable) seriously what a waste of police time for minor offences. That and the Garda reserve needs to be taken seriously - I heard there are only 300 reservists? It's been treated like the FCA.

Noticed the ever increasing numbers heading north to join the PSNI? check out the forums on this site for some very interesting insights.

The way the mcBrearty family were treated would have led to the top men resigning in the PSNI but not down here. Dean Lyons etc etc etc

So for as far as me not getting it - I think not. The office of the Garda ombudsman advertised for investigators today, better paid and higher entry criteria then the Gardai - interesting eh?

Oh and more or less the same amount of newspapers are sold every day, people buy papers out of habit not because the Gardai are on the front page.

event

jaysus havent seen one of these in a while, the usual boards garda bashing thread.

carry on lads

humanji

Oh and more or less the same amount of newspapers are sold every day, people buy papers out of habit not because the Gardai are on the front page.

Since you're that naive, there's little point going on.

oscarBravo

Careful now, humanji.

humanji

Sorry. And sorry nhughes100.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

I don't believe that is the flipside tbh. It's not unreasonable to state that one believes the force is still pretty unprofessional and needs further reform along the lines of how british forces, which have come a long way (including the PSNI who I find top-notch).

On the other hand, the forces you name have been accused in recent years of institutionalised racism (the Stepehn Lawrence Inquiry), collusion with terrorists (The Stevens Inquiry), operating a shoot to kill policy, shooting a commuter for looking like a Muslim terrorist, the Hillsborough farce etc. etc. While I appreciate that, in particular the RUC/PSNI have to deal with very different threats, they have blots on their records that are damning.

murphaph

Deleted User wrote: »

On the other hand, the forces you name have been accused in recent years of institutionalised racism (the Stepehn Lawrence Inquiry), collusion with terrorists (The Stevens Inquiry), operating a shoot to kill policy, shooting a commuter for looking like a Muslim terrorist, the Hillsborough farce etc. etc. While I appreciate that, in particular the RUC/PSNI have to deal with very different threats, they have blots on their records that are damning.

Indeed, but they have ombudsmen to investigate these matters. The PSNI is not the RUC. It has changed immeasurably. a handful of bad apples don't make the Met or West Yorkshire Constabulary bad forces....this is not what I am accusing the guards of. I am more accusing them of incompetence and unprofessionalism rather than corruption or racism. They are more bungling idiots than nasty people IMO. Even this story about these guards being suspended is more proof of them being yahoo boyos than corrupt coppers.

turgon

Get a grip on yourselves lads. Your talking like the Gardai are some sort of Military Junta like over in Burma. Were so used to human rights and "tip toe justice" in this country that we complain about everything, when in fact we have it so good. At least they arent coming out to shoot you for the disrespect you have shown, which is what would happen in some places.

marcsignal

lostexpectation wrote: »

name a police force that isn't rotten to the core.

*snigger* I was genuinely reading this thread with interest up until now, but you just BLEW your whole arguement right there.

Enough said.

Erin Go Brath

turgon wrote: »

Get a grip on yourselves lads. Your talking like the Gardai are some sort of Military Junta like over in Burma. Were so used to human rights and "tip toe justice" in this country that we complain about everything, when in fact we have it so good. At least they arent coming out to shoot you for the disrespect you have shown, which is what would happen in some places.

Thats a riduclous comparison to be making. I suppose the government are doing a wonderful job of running the country because we're not in the middle of a famine aswell?

I dont know the minutae of this incident, but of course the guards should be relieved of their duties if they abuse their powers and act outside the rules such as appears to be the case in this incident. Theres been enough corruption in that force in the past. Public confidence in their police force is very important!