Protesters Filming Gardai Vs Garda right to protect their identity

ojewriej

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Im not sure where your going with this one, Staff are supposed to wear name tags, I know I worked there...

I worked in McDonalds as well. Name on my name tag changed every week. Can Gardai fake numbers?

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Shoulder numbers, despite popular myth, is not a legal requirement. Theres no law stating that I must wear or display them. Its an internal discipline matter the same as McDonalds is..

I thought it was a legal requrement tbh. Especially that there is a bit of an uproar in the media whenever gardai are caught removing/covering their numbers. So what was the reason behind it then? Why did the GS mgmt decided that the numbers have to be displayed?

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

So it does come down to, "I pay your wages", how else do you consider the public to be my boss?.

This is how:

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

... consider yourself a customer and as such are entitled to a certain level of service in terms of manners and product delivery. Not however, in terms of seeing how the company is run or who is paid what or how much money the company spends in certain areas. Microsoft dont tell you that nor do you get an input into the decision making and neither do you have such an insight into the police.

That's exactly a point I'm trying to make. I'm not expecting to have a say in the way GS is being run. I also understand that there is a lot of confidential stuff going on. But GS shouldn't have anything to hide when it comes to their everyday dealings with general public.
I think UK forces understand that - hence there is a lot of british cop shows lately. Transparency helps to create trust.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Microsoft dont tell you that nor do you get an input into the decision making and neither do you have such an insight into the police.

The difference between Microsoft and GS is crucial: I can choose not to use Microsoft, but I can't stop paying taxes, therefore I can't stop being GS' "customer".

Eru

ojewriej wrote: »

I worked in McDonalds as well. Name on my name tag changed every week. Can Gardai fake numbers?

Anythings possible but it would require a level of planning plus if you were caught your job would be gone and god help anyone that gets a complaint using my numbers!

ojewriej wrote: »

I thought it was a legal requrement tbh. Especially that there is a bit of an uproar in the media whenever gardai are caught removing/covering their numbers. So what was the reason behind it then? Why did the GS mgmt decided that the numbers have to be displayed?

First off, when where Gardai caught removing and/or hiding their numbers? You phrase this in a way which implies you believe this is a regular occurance. Numbers have to be displayed for identification purposes but it a management decision.

ojewriej wrote: »

That's exactly a point I'm trying to make. I'm not expecting to have a say in the way GS is being run. I also understand that there is a lot of confidential stuff going on. But GS shouldn't have anything to hide when it comes to their everyday dealings with general public.
I think UK forces understand that - hence there is a lot of british cop shows lately. Transparency helps to create trust.

In what way should we be more open? What aspect is it your unhappy about? Remembering that the people we interact with are entitled to a level of confidentiality and knowing the ins and outs of how we operate benefits criminals far more than decent people.

ojewriej wrote: »

The difference between Microsoft and GS is crucial: I can choose not to use Microsoft, but I can't stop paying taxes, therefore I can't stop being GS' "customer".

Accepted but I pay tax too and it goes to a hell of a lot more things than just policing. How do you feel about your tax money supporting lazy dicks who couldnt be bothered getting a job or worse still, criminals? How about solicitors who are getting paid fro tax money to defend career criminals? Or translators because people refuse to speak English? The list goes on and on.

metman

That's exactly a point I'm trying to make. I'm not expecting to have a say in the way GS is being run. I also understand that there is a lot of confidential stuff going on. But GS shouldn't have anything to hide when it comes to their everyday dealings with general public.
I think UK forces understand that - hence there is a lot of british cop shows lately. Transparency helps to create trust.

I think reality cop shows are a good thing too in this respect. Yep sure we have tons of reality cop shows here in the UK. But we're a nation of 60 million people. London alone has about 3 times the population of Ireland. Now factor in the budgets of tv companies here as compared to that in Ireland? Conspiracy to hide the evil practices of the Gardai? More likely not much money to be made from such a show. Sorry to burst the bubble of the anti-Garda brigade.

ojewriej

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Anythings possible but it would require a level of planning plus if you were caught your job would be gone and god help anyone that gets a complaint using my numbers!

First off, when where Gardai caught removing and/or hiding their numbers? You phrase this in a way which implies you believe this is a regular occurance. Numbers have to be displayed for identification purposes but it a management decision.

Whether it is the law that require you to display the number, or the management decision, bottom line is you have to display your number, otherwise you will get into trouble.
Why is that, why did the management made that decision?

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

In what way should we be more open? What aspect is it your unhappy about? Remembering that the people we interact with are entitled to a level of confidentiality and knowing the ins and outs of how we operate benefits criminals far more than decent people.

Now you are just putting words in my mouth. All I said is that the GS shouldn't have anything to hide, when dealing with General Public. Remember, the subject of this thread is whether we should be able to film Gardai working on the street. All my arguments are posted here to support that and only that. I don't think we should be able to film inside the station for example.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Accepted but I pay tax too and it goes to a hell of a lot more things than just policing. How do you feel about your tax money supporting lazy dicks who couldnt be bothered getting a job or worse still, criminals? How about solicitors who are getting paid fro tax money to defend career criminals? Or translators because people refuse to speak English? The list goes on and on.

I don't like it. So? This doesn't have anything to do with this thread.

metman wrote: »

Yep sure we have cop shows here in the UK. But we're a nation of 60 million people. London alone has about 3 times the population of Ireland. Now factor in the budgets of tv companies here as compared to that in Ireland? Conspiracy to hide the evil practices of the Gardai? More likely not much money to be made from such a show. Sorry to burst the bubble of the anti-Garda brigade.

No the Garda don't have film crews following em around week in week out but that's more to do with money than Garda conspiracies.

First of all, I never suggested or implied any Garda conspiracy, just to be clear. I don't know why there is no Garda show similar to the ones in UK, and I'm not going to speculate. I brought it up only as an example of transparency in the Police Force.

I don't buy the money argument though. Cop shows are niche programs which develop steady following all over the world, and have no problems attracting advertisers. Back home, we had a show in which cameras followed policeman working in the sleepy town with 300.000 people living in it. It was for local TV station only, so quite a small market, but it was actually a very profitable project.

Traumadoc

There was a program that followed 4 interns around St Vincents last year, showed up a lot of the issues related to their work, Same with the program "surgeons" that followed Consultants. Cannot see why you would not have the same with Gardai, Might show a lot of people the realities of abuse that you have to deal with.

cushtac

Traumadoc wrote: »

Cannot see why you would not have the same with Gardai, Might show a lot of people the realities of abuse that you have to deal with.

The Garda brass don't trust RTE to do something like that after they got shafted by Prime Time.

afatbollix

metman wrote: »

I think Cop shows are a good thing too in this respect. But here's a shocker for the general public. The Garda Siochana aint doing anything different than we're doing here in the Met (as seen on Street Crime UK/Cops with Cameras/Sky Cops/Traffic Cops/*Cops....don't mention The Bill...) or what TVP are doing (Road Wars) or what the PSNI are doing (Derry City Beat).

Yep sure we have cop shows here in the UK. But we're a nation of 60 million people. London alone has about 3 times the population of Ireland. Now factor in the budgets of tv companies here as compared to that in Ireland? Conspiracy to hide the evil practices of the Gardai? More likely not much money to be made from such a show. Sorry to burst the bubble of the anti-Garda brigade.

No the Garda don't have film crews following em around week in week out but that's more to do with money than Garda conspiracies.

As a 'transparent' Uk Copper with a lot of friends in the Gardai I can tell you the lads and lassies in Eire aint doing much different to what we're doing here day to day. Cops are cops. Love us or hate us.

nope, not about money... ive tryed myself aswell as about 4 other people this year, the top brass and that i mean the minister of justice wont allow it.. its all down to not having a good pr department.. (sending in gardai that arent trained to deal with the press and they got slautered) must also be them not trusting there own members to put on a good legal show maybe???

Eru

anto-t wrote: »

nope, not about money... ive tryed myself aswell as about 4 other people this year, the top brass and that i mean the minister of justice wont allow it.. its all down to not having a good pr department.. (sending in gardai that arent trained to deal with the press and they got slautered) must also be them not trusting there own members to put on a good legal show maybe???

What are you talking about?

Ojewriej,
Your not giving anything that supports your arguement at all. All your saying is that people should be allowed shove cameras in the face of Gardai because were state employees and paid via tax money. What name tags, numbers, etc have to do with it I dont know. I in turn have tried to show you where tax money goes and in fact, we all pay eachothers wages and as a result are in fact eachothers bosses using your reasoning.

As for the rest, Im trying to explain why Gardai cannot be transparant and allow people to follow us with cameras. I presume you realise that criminals arent morons and as such will use whatever they can to get at or around the police.


You have then gone on about removing shoulder numbers and in my opinion, have implied that Gardai are untrustworthy and require watching.

DublinWriter

el_tiddlero wrote: »

given that there's CCTV cameras everywhere that the Gardai can use the footage from to gather information/evidence the old adage "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" comes to mind.

If they're watching you, then you have every right to watch them back..

At least one member is assigned record the proceedings on camcorder during the break-up of protests, such as the Shell-to-Sea guys. I'd imagine the idea is to present the scene from the garda point-of-view.

The guards also did this en-masse during Bush's visit here in 2004.

ojewriej

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Ojewriej,
Your not giving anything that supports your arguement at all. All your saying is that people should be allowed shove cameras in the face of Gardai because were state employees and paid via tax money. What name tags, numbers, etc have to do with it I dont know.

All I'm saying is that I don't see why members of the public should be forbidden to film Gardai performing their dutties on the street. Not only because it's a public place, but also because Gardai are state employees, and members of the public have a right to see how their money is being spent.
Requirement to display the ID numbers serves as a proof that Garda Management sees the need of transparency as well.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I in turn have tried to show you where tax money goes and in fact, we all pay eachothers wages and as a result are in fact eachothers bosses using your reasoning.

A think it's a common knowledge that a lot of income from taxes is being wasted. I don't see how what does this have to do with this subject. Especially that I never implied that the GS is wasting the taxpayers money.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

As for the rest, Im trying to explain why Gardai cannot be transparant and allow people to follow us with cameras. I presume you realise that criminals arent morons and as such will use whatever they can to get at or around the police.

I made it very clear, that all I'm talking about is filming the beat Gardai on the street. Obviously certain things can't be revealed.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

You have then gone on about removing shoulder numbers and in my opinion, have implied that Gardai are untrustworthy and require watching.

In your opinion. I brought it up only to show why I thoiught that displaying ID numbers is a legal requirement. How did you get that I think that Gardai are untrustworthy from that is beyond me.

To be honest, I think you are taking it all a bit too personally. If you read my posts carefully, you will see that I didn't criticize GS once in this thread, I never said I had a problem with the way they do their thing, and that they should implement changes. I repeat: all I'm saying is that I don't see why Gardai can't be filmed. The rest is you jumping to conclussions and putting words in my mouth.

culabula88

Getting back to the start of the thread, what im saying is that everybody should have a right to protect their image and face from being used by somebody else regardless of what job they have.

What I am specifically talking about is about clips of people putting cameras right into the faces of gardas and then posting them on youtube without their permission. This should not happen to anybody regardless if they are a garda or civil servant or anybody. Their is a line between filiming the gardai to ensure that no mistreatment can take place & filiming them so closely that their faces can be seen just for sake of it & to promote ridicule.

Regarding the proposed documentary for the Garda, I think that prime time did one a few years back & I thought it was good. While I like these shows and find them interesting ,I dont think it would be a good idea for the guards to have one. Firstly Ireland is a smaller country .There is a big issue of insurance. The duty of the Garda is to police not to provide TV entertainment for the rest of the nation.A garda shouldnt be under any obligation to participate in these shows. We all know what happens every saturday night in every town - no need for a TV show.

Some people here think that TV shows will give transparency to the Guards - a TV show wouldnt make any difference in any respect- its purpose is entertainment. The GSOC is supposed to look after transparency issues.

Finally, if you are really that interested in the work of the Garda why dont you go and sign up for the garda reserve & see first hand how it really happens instead of sitting comfortably in your armchair.

cushtac

anto-t wrote: »

(sending in gardai that arent trained to deal with the press and they got slautered)

Wherever possible members from the Garda Press Office, who have the appropriate training, deal with the press or advise those officers who are dealing with them.

Eru

Ojewriej,
If your allowed follow me with a camera then does this also apply the other way? Am I allowed follow you around with a camera? How about nurses? Eircom staff? ESB staff? My bank manager? The list goes on and on until your left with no personal privacy.

You consistantly refer to taxpayers money but then claim your not going down that road. As I said, I probable in some way pay your wages in the same way as you pay mine. Have I a right to see how my money is being spent by you? What are you paid per annum? How long do you get for a break? Take a smoke break or a coffee break? Chat to colleagues?

If you limit it too Gardai on the beat then it still applies to all other occupations in the same way. Should we therefore allow people to follow prison officers around the jail? Stand beside your bank manager or doctor all day while he works?

Lets not forget that by filming Gardai you are seeing Garda operations such as plain clothes, armed units and Surveillance. Then your seeing Gardai coming and going, shift changes, who is coming in and who is going home which therefore increases the risk of Gardai being targeted off duty.

This will then lead to Gardai being identified off duty which poses a risk to their families. This all happens as it is but by allowing cameras to follow Gardai and get nice clear views of their faces, etc it will be drastically increased.

And Im not even going into the basic human right to privacy. Now I know your not talking about doindg this but by allowing Gardai to be filmed and watched this is what will happen because as I said before, criminals will gain much more than your average citizen.

Terrontress

How do people ridicule Gardai if they are not doing anything ridiculous?

It seems on youtube that there is a grave problem with the public perception of the Gardai. People pushing them in the lake, talking about gremlins in phone lines, dancing to music. It doesn't seem as prevalent for other forces yet the Gardai are quite a small force.

I think the Gardai should work on improving their public image and not give people something to look at on youtube. The people who are put on television / radio to discuss important matters rarely inspire confidence and mispronounce the simplest of words and use outmoded expressions which leads them open to further ridicule. And these are senior officers!

Open surveillance seems to be a bigger and bigger part of policing. I haven't seen it in Ireland yet but there are vans with cameras on top circling round. If police can video the public with no suggestion of any wrong-doing then why should it not work the other way round?

Gardai behaving in a ridiculous fashion is a separate matter entirely.

ojewriej

Karlito

Again, you are making awfull jumps here.

What I'm saying applies to uniformed gardai on the street only. While on duty. Not in the station, not plainclothes, just uniforms in public places.

As for Garda being identified off duty - can't they not be identified off duty without being recorded?

I work for th US company - explain to me how do you contribute to my wages?

Salary scales for all of the Public service jobs are available to public. You can check how much a nurse or a doctor in a public hospital can earn. Same goes for firemen, gardai, from the street sweeper all the way to taoiseach really. Why do you think is that? And why you won't find my salary scale anywhere?

Lilibet

If I,a member of the public, am interacting with a Garda on the street,I would take great offence to anyone filming it and saying they have a right to do so because the Gardai are public servants.I would be even more offended if the Garda had to allow it to be filmed.My confidence in the confidentiality of the Garda would be seriously undermined through no fault of the Garda.
I feel that people who like to film the Gardai on the street,would take offence if someone were to film them being treated by a nurse in a hospital.After all a hospital is a public place and nurses are public servants too.

ojewriej

Lilibet wrote: »

If I,a member of the public, am interacting with a Garda on the street,I would take great offence to anyone filming it and saying they have a right to do so because the Gardai are public servants.I would be even more offended if the Garda had to allow it to be filmed.My confidence in the confidentiality of the Garda would be seriously undermined through no fault of the Garda.
I feel that people who like to film the Gardai on the street,would take offence if someone were to film them being treated by a nurse in a hospital.After all a hospital is a public place and nurses are public servants too.

If you want privacy and confidentiality- find a private space or go the the Garda Station. Everyone has a right to be and even film in a public space.If you are a focus point of the recording, there are limitations how it can be used. But if you are just part of the background, it can be used without limitations as far as i know.

Lilibet

So let me get this right....If I am attacked on the street and go to a Garda I see on the beat to report it,anyone can film the Garda dealing with me in my distress and the Garda can't stop them.!!! They can then post it on the internet under the guise that they were filming the Garda,that the Gardai are public servants and the event was in a public place.Someone please tell me that this cannot possibly be right or just.
As for finding a private place or going to a Garda station to report something,atttacks don't happen conveniently and the first Garda I might see could be one on a public street.

Gavin

Have a read of the link I posted previously. It's targeted at photography, but I would imagine that video is legally treated much the same as photography. (Although I do not actually know this)

A relevant quote from the document

Photographs in a Public Place

You are not allowed to harass people in the course of your photography - stalking someone, or repeatedly blocking their way to take a photograph of them could be construed as harassment; simply taking a photograph of them probably won’t. Taking photographs of people in public is generally allowed - however, an exception is made where the subject would have a reasonable expectation of privacy. You’re perfectly entitled to take a photograph of someone walking down the street - but hiding in a tree to take a photo of them in their home may get you into trouble.

In your example above, reporting something may be construed as a reasonable expectation of privacy. Maybe. We need some solicitors.

Terrontress

Would you feel so aggrieved if you were assaulted on the street and someone videoed that, which subsequently led to their arrest?

Would you feel aggrieved if you were stopped speeding and video evidence was bought to court and displayed in that most public of places? Or put on a tv show about police doing their job?

Lilibet

Terrontress wrote: »

Would you feel so aggrieved if you were assaulted on the street and someone videoed that, which subsequently led to their arrest?

Would you feel aggrieved if you were stopped speeding and video evidence was bought to court and displayed in that most public of places? Or put on a tv show about police doing their job?

Thats a very different situation in that I would like to think that the person doing the recording of my being assaulted was doing so to help me and not for their own sinster reasons.I would also like to think that they would help to stop the assault if they could.
Your second example is again different in that if I break the law and the Gardai produce legally obtained video evidence of it,I go through due process and let the law take its course in any public courtroom.
My reply to your last example is that I would expect my permission to be sought before any film of me was put on any tv show.

ojewriej

Lilibet wrote: »

My reply to your last example is that I would expect my permission to be sought before any film of me was put on any tv show.

I agree with you on that. As a private person, you should be asked for permission to be put on telly, or even a website. Uniformed Gardai on duty are civil servants at work, so imo permission shouldn't be necessary. Of course, in certain situations, they should be able to stop the airing as well.

But as I mentioned before, there is a huge legal difference between just filming you, and then releasing the film to the wide audience.

Mind you though, I'm no expert, my opinion is based on some legal studies I did while studying journalism. This kind of issues were covered there from the journo perspective. So I agree with Verb, we are just speculating here, to sort it once and for all we would need someone with some solid legal background.

Terrontress

The point is that the right which allows people to film Gardai or any public happening is the same which allows the Gardai to film the public without suggestion of a crime. To insist otherwise would be like an unaccountable dictatorship.

The Gardai have an aversion to being filmed in general as they do not come across well on film, or even on the radio.

But that is the fault of the Gardai. Not the people filming them.

culabula88

ojewriej wrote: »

Karlito

Again, you are making awfull jumps here.

What I'm saying applies to uniformed gardai on the street only. While on duty. Not in the station, not plainclothes, just uniforms in public places.

As for Garda being identified off duty - can't they not be identified off duty without being recorded?

I work for th US company - explain to me how do you contribute to my wages?

Salary scales for all of the Public service jobs are available to public. You can check how much a nurse or a doctor in a public hospital can earn. Same goes for firemen, gardai, from the street sweeper all the way to taoiseach really. Why do you think is that? And why you won't find my salary scale anywhere?

Quite simply to say that somebody is a public or civil servant allows other members of the public to freely film them is a BS arguement. What i am speciifcally talking about is somebody who can seem to walk up to a garda shove it in their face and post it up on youtube. If it was a normal Joe soap or me they tried to film , Id take the camera off them fairly quick ( & id say that this would probably be the reaction of most people) , but because its a garda the guards either dont have laws to do it or are reluctant to do it in case their is complaints etc.

Oh and the US company bit, id say that everybody in this country is handsomly contributing to your wages with the amount of money the IDA has thrown at them for a start & tax breaks together with low corporation tax to keep you employed - ( not to mention the obligation we are under with army stopover flights in shannon from the US) so dont go down that road thinking that you have extra rights over public servants in some respects.

One question to you ojewriej & others - Will you allow your image to be posted on youtube?

Eru

Im going to give up on this one. Ori is just ignoring points and questions put to him while being incredible niave which I suspect is deliberate.

People simple cant get beyond having a superiority complex over Gardai and it would seem, state employees in general. Im just thankful most people are capable of human decency and respect of privacy regardless of percieved social status.

Thread closed as far as Im concerned

Gavin

culabula88 wrote: »

One question to you ojewriej & others - Will you allow your image to be posted on youtube?

Have you actually read up on this in the slightest ?? If a video is made of me in public, in a non-harassing manner, where I am in a position of not expecting privacy. e.g walking down the street, there is nothing I can do to stop the publication. I don't particularly have a problem with that either. When one is in public.. it is PUBLIC !!!

sunnyjim

Sorry Verb, but we're talking about the lives of Gardai being interfered with here.

It would be ok if it's a glimpse of a garda on RTE during coverage of an All Ireland, but the incidents we're talking about here are the Rossport type videos being seen on Youtube and Indymedia.ie - where someone is pushing cameras into a Gardas face and mouthing off about all and sundry, knowing the Garda can't retaliate.

This **** wouldn't fly if it was someone walking down a street, because it would be harrassment.... And even at that, what has a random punter to lose? A garda has a lot more to lose.

Edit: Hey, I'll tell ya what, I have some pictures that I just happened to take of an ERU member. Maybe I should publish them? Because ya know, what went down was on an open street. Fair enough?

metman

I've had this a couple of times when I've been on duty. Idiots sticking a mobile phone in your face while you're dealing with something.

The last time it happened to me I was dealing with a drunken loud mouth when his mate thought it'd be funny to film me dealing with him on Camera. Strangely enough the camera-phone was removed when I told the mate I'd be seizing his phone as evidence of a criminal offence (his mate gobbing off at me), which we have a power to do.

Ordinarily I couldn't care less if people want to film me working in uniform on a public street. If they get close enough that it starts to interfere with my job then I'd be looking at giving them a warning to move off, then I'd be looking at obstruction.

I don't see what the issue is here, and why its being made out to be so on this thread. The police service isn't a 'secret police' we perform our role in the public eye and rightly so. When the public overstep the mark in filming we have powers to intervene.

jetsonx

metman wrote: »

told the mate I'd be seizing his phone as evidence of a criminal offence .

Do you really think he was comitting a criminal offence with his phone ?

What was the rationale behind this intent to confiscate his phone?

civdef

Jetsonx, the statement you are querying seems fairly clear to me. Can I suggest you might just need to read it again?