Christenings

diddley

Would you christen your baby? Forgive me for my ignorance on the subject, but AFAIK, a LOT of parents who wouldnt be religious or who wouldnt go to mass christen their children :S Is my perception of this totally wrong? :S Christenings are so pointless.

Zamboni

diddley wrote: »

Would you christen your baby? Forgive me for my ignorance on the subject, but AFAIK, a LOT of parents who wouldnt be religious or who wouldnt go to mass christen their children :S Is my perception of this totally wrong? :S Christenings are so pointless.

Funny you should mention that. I went to one at the weekend and had a terrible moral dilemma as to whether I should attend or not.
Christenings are obviously pointless to atheists, but the lukewarm folks in the middle who aren't really practicing that I know, see a christening as a kind of religious insurance policy. Cop out, gutless, fence sitters? Not my place to judge.
I had to bite my tongue on several occasions during the barbaric ritual of indoctrination.

orestes

Most people just use them as an excuse for a p!ss up from what I can tell

Tim_Murphy

orestes wrote: »

Most people just use them as an excuse for a p!ss up from what I can tell

That seanms to often be the case alright. :rolleyes:

Dave!

I'd say more people use it as an educational insurance policy than a religious one tbh

Charlie3dan

diddley wrote: »

Would you christen your baby?

Short answer: No

However, I could see circumstances where I would allow my child to be christened, even if I have no intention of giving it a religious upbringing.
My missus doesn't have as strong feelings about atheism as I do, and in addition her family are very religious. This could possibly lead to my child being christened.

In reality though, these proceedings are part of irish custom, even though the majority of people don't place any religious weight in them.

Doctor DooM

DaveMcG wrote: »

I'd say more people use it as an educational insurance policy than a religious one tbh

Sadly, I would say this is a prevalent factor in Ireland today, along with pressure from the grandparents.

robindch

diddley wrote: »

AFAIK, a LOT of parents who wouldnt be religious or who wouldnt go to mass christen their children

Not in our family -- three out of six in the extended family were baptized, but that happened 20 years ago down the country. The three that were born and live in Dublin haven't been dipped, nor are they very likely to be

Andy-Pandy

I'd have no interest in christening my child, but my mother has already told me she would sneak him/her to a priest if i didnt. I'd do it just to keep her happy tbh.

Doctor DooM

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

I'd have no interest in christening my child, but my mother has already told me she would sneak him/her to a priest if i didnt. I'd do it just to keep her happy tbh.

Jeebus, if my mother did that to me, I think I'd see red.

Dades

Zamboni wrote: »

Funny you should mention that. I went to one at the weekend and had a terrible moral dilemma as to whether I should attend or not?

Why the hell would you not attend a Christening?

I was at one last weekend too. Nice family affair with food and booze afterwards in the sun.

My first is due this year, and it will be Christened for two reasons (1) Mummy and families completely expect it, and (2) getting the child into a decent school within 10 miles. Yes it will piss me off having to do it, but my indignation doesn't need to be someone else's burden.

Andy-Pandy

SDooM wrote: »

Jeebus, if my mother did that to me, I think I'd see red.

My children are all hypothetical by the way, but id tend to mirror what dades just said.

robindch

Dades wrote: »

my indignation doesn't need to be someone else's burden.

hmmm... with an attitude like that, you'll never make much of a fundamentalist

Doctor DooM

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

My children are all hypothetical by the way, but id tend to mirror what dades just said.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with Dades too. But if anyone forced a child of mine to do something without my permission- especially something religious like that- I would not be pleased.

death1234567

I dont think christenings are a big deal TBH. The kids not old enough to know what's going on anyway. First Communion and confirmation on the other hand...

Dades

robindch wrote: »

hmmm... with an attitude like that, you'll never make much of a fundamentalist

I blame my ethos.

SDooM wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I agree with Dades too. But if anyone forced a child of mine to do something without my permission- especially something religious like that- I would not be pleased.

I concur, although if my kid could be christened and get it's "Go To School Pass" without me having to win a Tony award at the altar - that wouldn't be the worst thing!

Doctor DooM

death1234567 wrote: »

I dont think christenings are a big deal TBH. The kids not old enough to know what's going on anyway. First Communion and confirmation on the other hand...

But when it came to First Communion, would you be happy making your kid feel left out? Is that not worse, even?

Tigrrrr

Zamboni wrote: »

I had to bite my tongue on several occasions during the barbaric ritual of indoctrination.

Isn't that a bit much? I would describe christenings as: boring, slow and repetitive. Unless you mean the part where the baby cries as the priests wets his head, I don't know what you mean by barbaric.
It's hardly indoctinating either, per se. Nobody listens who doesn't already believe, and those who don't believe are only there for the relatives or the beer. How bad?

death1234567

SDooM wrote: »

But when it came to First Communion, would you be happy making your kid feel left out? Is that not worse, even?

Thats kind of what I meant. Kids are *forced* (to an extent) to have their communion/confirmation with all their friends and teachers teaching them prayers, going through the mass etc. What place has that got in State schools? Its all about the church keeping power and indoctrinating (SP?) the vunerable. You can't indoctrinate a baby in a christening because it doesn't know whats going on.

Anyway I'm off topic.:o

Red Hand

Yes, I would if it's mother wanted it done. Plus, it would be the expected thing in my family, and I wouldn't want to cause hassle.

Malari

I am always amazed at how many people would do things like this "just to keep the mother happy". Do interfering family members really have so little respect for you that they can't accept your reasons for doing things your own way, if you feel strongly about it?

death1234567

Malari wrote: »

if you feel strongly about it?

I think you'll find that most atheists don't feel strongly about it. I mean you hold your baby and the priest runs some water over his/her head. No big deal.

Malari

I suppose in Ireland I would consider someone who declares themselves an atheist would feel quite strongly about it. At least I do. :pac:

Dades

Tigrrrr wrote: »

It's hardly indoctinating either, per se. Nobody listens who doesn't already believe, and those who don't believe are only there for the relatives or the beer. How bad?

All true!

As for first holy communion, that decision can be left with the child. If they don't want to be left out - fair enough. Though surely these days there are enough non-catholics in each class so that those NOT making their communion aren't complete lepers.

Malari

And I don't think it's the physical act of pouring over water that I would object too, it's the symbolism. I mean the reason I don't attend mass is that I don't subscribe to what's being said, rather than I don't like sitting on a wooden bench for half an hour while some guy talks on an altar!

Orion

I feel strongly about it. My children are not christened even though my parents (father in particular) wants them to. We had to go to my niece's christening recently and my father started brainwashing my daughters - when I threatened to walk out of the church with them he stopped. But at the afters he started again with the "if you don't I will" thing. There are harsh words coming soon.

The way I see it it is our choice whether our kids are christened or not - nobody else's until our children are old enough to decide for themselves - then it becomes their choice. I respect my parents' choices regarding their religion and I fully expect, and demand, the same respect for my choices especially regarding my children.

Popinjay

Macros42 wrote: »

The way I see it it is our choice whether our kids are christened or not - nobody else's until our children are old enough to decide for themselves - then it becomes their choice. I respect my parents' choices regarding their religion and I fully expect, and demand, the same respect for my choices especially regarding my children.

Bravo!

Malari

I totally agree Macros. My parents respect my views and I theirs. I don't have children but I wouldn't let anyone try to tell me what to do regarding christening...I'm thinking of a certain mother-in-law.

Zamboni

Jeebus, everyone is a moderate today.
It must be the bank holiday looming up

I'm still with Macros and Malari on this one though.

Leeby

Malari wrote: »

I am always amazed at how many people would do things like this "just to keep the mother happy". Do interfering family members really have so little respect for you that they can't accept your reasons for doing things your own way, if you feel strongly about it?

I think when they say "the mother" they're talking about their childs mother not their own mothers.

Malari

Ok, but I think some people are talking about their own mothers. Or relatives. And either way, surely the mother and father have a say.

Mena

diddley wrote: »

Would you christen your baby?

Never, over my dead body. When she's an adult at 42 she can make up her own mind about all these fairly tales, but until then... no way. :pac:

Bduffman

Can't see the problem myself. Are people afraid that their children might suddenly become believers? If you believe that a baptism is a meaningless ceremony then whats the problem?
All societies throughout history have always had ceremonies 'welcoming' a new member into the family - if religion never existed there would still be some kind of ceremony.
I've 'christened' my own kids even though I'm an atheist - mainly for the families sake on both sides. I know some people will regard that as hypocritical but I don't. Hypocrisy is believing in something but acting in a different way. If you don't believe in something than how can it be hypocritical? For me it was just going to a building to get some water poured on my child & then celebrating afterwards.
And guess what? I'm still an atheist.

Mena

Why continue to perpetuate what is in fact a useless, meaningless cermony. If you wanted to celebrate the arrival, invite the family and friends over for a BBQ.

Zamboni

Bduffman wrote: »

If you believe that a baptism is a meaningless ceremony then whats the problem?

Actually that arguement is a cop out.
If you don't believe something, why not do it?

I believe tribal tattooing and piercings and bar mitzvah are meaningless ceremonies.
I wouldn't let my child do that either.

Zamboni

This thread shows that moderate atheism is as guilty as moderate religion when it comes to perpetuating this silly ceremonies, imo.:rolleyes:

Bduffman

Mena wrote: »

Why continue to perpetuate what is in fact a useless, meaningless cermony. If you wanted to celebrate the arrival, invite the family and friends over for a BBQ.

Because thats the way most of my family wanted to celebrate it - & I didn't have any objections. It didn't re-affirm the ceremony as any way meaningful. Do you refuse to go to someones funeral because its a 'useless, meaningless ceremony'. No - you go to pay your respects to that person & sympathise with their family. Do you refuse to go to someones wedding because its a 'useless, meaningless ceremony'. No - you go to celebrate their marriage.

Does that perpetuate a funeral or wedding as anything more than meaningless ceremonies? Maybe - maybe not - but who cares? They're just ceremonies. There are more serious problems in life that religion & nonsense beliefs causes - christenings are not up there in my list of importance.

And its funny you should mention a BBQ - we did have one & invited all our family & friends afterwards.

Bduffman

Zamboni wrote: »

This thread shows that moderate atheism is as guilty as moderate religion when it comes to perpetuating this silly ceremonies, imo.:rolleyes:

And that shows that fundamentalist atheism is as stupid as fundamentist religion.
Say you decide to hold a non-religious celebration for your new child. And someone refuses to go because its not a religious ceremony. Wouldn't you regard that as being a bit pathetic?

Vokes

Actually, would be interested to hear some opinions ....would posters here (or have ever?) reject a request from a sibling to be a godparent to a niece / nephew and not take part in the ceremony, etc.. Why / why not ?

Malari

I don't know if it would arise, as my immediate family knows how I feel (and mostly feel the same way). I was a sponsor for my brother when he made his confirmation but I was 15...I was only developing my atheist outlook, in my defence! I wouldn't do it now.

Zamboni

SofaK wrote: »

Actually, would be interested to hear some opinions ....would posters here (or have ever?) reject a request from a sibling to be a godparent to a niece / nephew and not take part in the ceremony, etc.. Why / why not ?

I had the conversation last week.
I said I would be honoured to be a guardian for the child should the need arise but would not be a 'godfather'.

Mena

Bduffman wrote: »

Because thats the way most of my family wanted to celebrate it - & I didn't have any objections. It didn't re-affirm the ceremony as any way meaningful. Do you refuse to go to someones funeral because its a 'useless, meaningless ceremony'. No - you go to pay your respects to that person & sympathise with their family. Do you refuse to go to someones wedding because its a 'useless, meaningless ceremony'. No - you go to celebrate their marriage.

Does that perpetuate a funeral or wedding as anything more than meaningless ceremonies? Maybe - maybe not - but who cares? They're just ceremonies. There are more serious problems in life that religion & nonsense beliefs causes - christenings are not up there in my list of importance.

And its funny you should mention a BBQ - we did have one & invited all our family & friends afterwards.

In both of the bolded cases above I don't attend, when they're held in a church. I do/will go to the "after party's" however (receptions et al).

Bduffman

Mena wrote: »

In both of the bolded cases above I don't attend, when they're held in a church. I do/will go to the "after party's" however (receptions et al).

As per my previous post - I would regard that as a bit pathetic. Much the same as a religious person refusing to go to a non-religious ceremony on a matter of principle.

Dades

I think critics of people getting a hypothetical child Christened are overlooking the two most important factors here: The child's other parent, and the child's education.

In an ideal world we could all "fight the powah", but that's not always the most practical way to do things. My wife is a nominal catholic, and I can't think of a reason to deny her, and both our families a Christening. Regarding education, baptism unfortunately increases the options for your child.

The residual effects of a baptism last until the child's head dries.

Mena

Bduffman wrote: »

As per my previous post - I would regard that as a bit pathetic. Much the same as a religious person refusing to go to a non-religious ceremony on a matter of principle.

That's fine, I don't really care how you feel about my decisions, to each their own :pac:

Dades wrote: »

I think critics of people getting a hypothetical child Christened are overlooking the two most important factors here: The child's other parent, and the child's education.

In an ideal world we could all "fight the powah", but that's not always the most practical way to do things. My wife is a nominal catholic, and I can't think of a reason to deny her, and both our families a Christening. Regarding education, baptism unfortunately increases the options for your child.

The residual effects of a baptism last until the child's head dries.

Then I find myself in the fortunate position to not have any family to worry about as they're either a) of the same opinion as myself, b) 10 000 miles away or c) dead. As for school, we've had not issue at all getting our daughter into a school here in Ireland.

However your point is taken and perhaps I've been one of the lucky few.

redfacedbear

I agonised for a long time about this after our daughter was born. I really didn't want to have her baptised but the missus (nominally Catholic) wanted it.

The clincher was education for me too. While Primary school won't be a problem (she's signed up for the Educate Together) the only decent Secondary schools around here a run by religous organisations and over-subscribed. By not getting her baptised I was placing her future education at risk. Now the fact that this is the case in a 'secular' state is absolutely disgraceful but I'm not going to place her future in jepordy just to prove a point.

I eventually relented and she was baptised on her first birthday.

Number 2 is due in October and I suppose we'll just have to repeat the exercise.

I'm not looking forward to the indoctrination she will be subjected to (and that I'll probably have to partake in) but needs must.

Besides she's a bright kid, I'm sure she'll work it out for herself :pac:

Dades

Mena wrote: »

However your point is taken and perhaps I've been one of the lucky few.

Maybe you have, and good for you!

Orion

Bduffman wrote: »

Say you decide to hold a non-religious celebration for your new child. And someone refuses to go because its not a religious ceremony. Wouldn't you regard that as being a bit pathetic?

Yes I would - see below.

Zamboni wrote: »

I had the conversation last week.
I said I would be honoured to be a guardian for the child should the need arise but would not be a 'godfather'.

I would and am. Despite my atheism, which my brother is perfectly fine with, I'm godfather to his eldest daughter and stood in for the godfather at his second daughter's christening. I am perfectly comfortable with my atheism to not feel threatened by someone else's faith. He wanted me as godfather and I was honoured to do so. I went to the church and although I did not pray, or re-affirm my faith, or take communion, I was still there for him, his wife and , most importantly, his daughter. I would have been childish of me to refuse to attend. So in answer to the Bduffman's question above - I would feel exactly the same if someone refused to come to my children's naming-day or whatever because they felt it should be a religious ceremony - that it would be childish and pathetic.

Charlie3dan

I was in the same situation as above, my sister knew I was atheist and she was ok with it so I was delighted to be a god parent. Once my sister knew I wasn't going to help force religious beliefs (or lack of them) upon a child, then I was ok with it. After that,I don't care what meaning a priest or his god take from my presence as the godparent.

These religious ceremonies are customary, but even in some families that claim to be religious, a god parent does little more than throw the kid a fiver every so often.

The war on religion won't be fought one christening at a time.

Malari

Charlie3dan wrote: »

The war on religion won't be fought one christening at a time.

How do you suggest the war on religion be fought? I think there's nothing wrong with small steps like a single christening, or de-baptism, or being a guardian instead of a godparent. The more people do this the more acceptable it will be and the less parents will feel pressured by family to baptise a baby because it is the done thing.

Charlie3dan

Nothing wrong with it at all and it has it's part in the war. But it's only a small part.
Not attending a christening might make anti religious behaviour somewhat more acceptable, but I would be more interested in educating people as to why religious behaviour should not be acceptable.

(at the same time I'm not neccessarily saying we should all be fighting a war on religion either, that's a bit fundamentalist in itself)

I'm just saying I don't see a problem with an atheist attending a christening, if you look at the big picture.