My stability ball is making me weaker!!

Transform

Just a quick post from the following:-

'J Strength Cond Res - Jan 2008

The purpose of this investigation was to compare trunk muscle activity during stability ball and free weight exercises.

Activity of the trunk muscles during SQs and DLs is greater or equal to that which is produced during the stability ball exercises. It appears that stability ball exercises may not provide a sufficient stimulus for increasing muscular strength or hypertrophy; consequently, the role of stability ball exercises in strength and conditioning programs is questioned. SQs and DLs are recommended for increasing strength and hypertrophy of the back extensors.

More proof that doing proper weights instead of farting about on a swiss ball is going to get better results. No if i see one more person standing on a swiss ball or doing their crappy crunches i may just have to have a chat

Hanley

Interesting. What sorta loading were they using for the squats and DL's?

I assume different loads = different levels of activation.

And if core activation was only better for SQ and DL when using max weights I could still see some justification as to why ppl use the swiss ball.

Just playing devils advocate...

aye

i dont really see the comparison.

stability balls are for abdominal exercises primarily, and are used generally to replace abs curls, planks etc.
or to increase intra-adbominal pressure when performing weight exercises, chest press for example.

sure a squat and a DL probably provide more stimulus on the abs to some stability ball exercises, they arent similar exercises really.

try a plank with your elbows on one ball, and your feet on another one, see how your core activates.

i know most general public think that to work their abs they must do situps, etc, and i suppose with this study you could explain to them how squats and DLs can be used also.

which stability ball exercises did they do in the study?

BossArky

Slight off tipic - Should my abs be sore after deadlifting or squatting?

Don't remember ever getting DOMS from them. Is this cos I'm just not doing them heavy enough yet, at just over bodyweight?

Hanley

It'd be a VERY rare session that my abs were DOMS'd from squatting or deadlifting. Only on excceptionally high volume days.

Hanley

aye wrote: »

i dont really see the comparison.

stability balls are for abdominal exercises primarily, and are used generally to replace abs curls, planks etc.
or to increase intra-adbominal pressure when performing weight exercises, chest press for example.

sure a squat and a DL probably provide more stimulus on the abs to some stability ball exercises, they arent similar exercises really.

try a plank with your elbows on one ball, and your feet on another one, see how your core activates.

i know most general public think that to work their abs they must do situps, etc, and i suppose with this study you could explain to them how squats and DLs can be used also.

which stability ball exercises did they do in the study?

The way I would look at it is this...

I squat well over 2x bodyweight. Put me on a stability ball or bosu ball or whatever, give me a couple of days to learn the movements and how to fire my core properly on it and I'll take on anyone who trains on it regularly.

Now, give me that same person and throw them in a squat rack and lets see if they can support over 2x bodyweight. I doubt they would.

All I have to do is adapt all the core strength that I already have to this new exercise.

Recently Malteaser has actually proven the above to me. She's started doing lots of planks and other various "fancy" core drills, she's picked even the more advanced stuff up within a week with some instruction (one of the PT's in TF was showing them to her). Hell she was doing sets of 10 rock bottom squats on a Bosu ball the other day (standing on the flat part with the ball on the ground). There's sh!t all guys up there that can do even one cos they're not "Stable" enough. But she was... without training for it.

My conclusion squats + deadlift = strong core

t-ha

I doubt if you'ld get DOMS simply because you squat all the time. I just went back to training there a few weeks ago after a 2 month lay off and when I did squats for the first time (after about 3 weeks training other stuff, including planks) my abs really felt it straight away and got DOMS from it.

Also, I remember going to a physio about my back and being shown various stability ball exercises to do to strengthen up my core, as a weak core was the cause of all problems back then. Anyway, at the time I was doing plenty of compound lifting and had zero trouble doing anything he told me to do on the ball (unlike the physio when he was showing me the exercises).

I think stability balls can be fun for doing various things, but they're not a serious strength development tool IMO.

aye

Hanley wrote: »

My conclusion squats + deadlift = strong core

couldn't agree more.

my point isn't that stability ball exercises do more for your core than DL's or squats, more that DL's and squats are quite different than what would be done on a stability ball, and a stability ball would be more viewed as an alternative to ab curls, etc rather than to a DL or squat.

i.e. replacing an ab curl with a stability ball ab curl and comparing the muscle activation between the two would be a more viable study, i think

The snipet in the post, seemed to say that replacing a DL or squat with stability ball exercises, will lead to less core work. But why would you replace a DL or squat with those exercises.

amazingemmet

t-ha wrote: »

I think stability balls can be fun for doing various things, but they're not a serious strength development tool IMO.

Functional neck training perhaps T-ha? :pac:

Found a decent use for stability balls,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKQ2cYqIKpo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSmjjA7JV8

Mikel

aye wrote: »

my point isn't that stability ball exercises do more for your core than DL's or squats, more that DL's and squats are quite different than what would be done on a stability ball, and a stability ball would be more viewed as an alternative to ab curls, etc rather than to a DL or squat.

i.e. replacing an ab curl with a stability ball ab curl and comparing the muscle activation between the two would be a more viable study, i think

In a way you're right, but isn't the reason people do crunches et al to strenghten their core?

I'd like to see a comparison between squats/DL and overhead squats

Sleepy

Have to agree with t-ha here, my first time squatting something close to bodyweight since being back in the gym and I had DOMS in my abs so bad I was actually worried it might be apendicitis!

Roper

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate a bit here too:

Squats and Deadlifts, for non power lifters or people not concerned about numbers, are just exercises to increase sporting performance. Stability exercises likewise.

So assuming that stability balls add value to an overall conditioning programme for an athletic endeavour, then it would not matter if the dead and squat numbers decreased, so long as that value add was greater than that of the increased squat and dead numbers.

That being said, if someone asked me what the best thing for core strength and balance wa, I'd say squat and deadlift, overhead squat etc. A swiss ball is an add on until you make a video about it and want to make some money.

Transform

Point it most people follow others in a gym - see people doing crunches on a ball, link, i will do crunches on a ball.

Most people do not use the swiss ball for anything more than that yet the ball has far more benefits. Its not useless its just most people keep doing the same stuff all the time and thats exactly why they make very very little progress.

Most would gladly fanny about doing 20mins biceps(bloke)/inner thigh (women) exercises than 20mins chinning/lunges (which i see every day in the gym)

Roper

Transform wrote: »

Point it most people follow others in a gym - see people doing crunches on a ball, link, i will do crunches on a ball.

Most people do not use the swiss ball for anything more than that yet the ball has far more benefits. Its not useless its just most people keep doing the same stuff all the time and thats exactly why they make very very little progress.

Most would gladly fanny about doing 20mins biceps(bloke)/inner thigh (women) exercises than 20mins chinning/lunges (which i see every day in the gym)

True. But you have to remember that the average gym goer is poorly educated on these matters, so I wouldn't be too harsh. If you ask a gym instructor (most of them anyway) what is the best exercise I can do for my abs, they'll tell you to crunch, and not to overhead squat or even squat. The reason being that they either don't know any better or if they do, can't or won't invest the time into showing those excellent exercises. So with these sort of people as the "experts" in the local big box gym, what hope does the person walking in off the street to get fit have? So it doesn't surprise me that after they realise that the 10mins cycle, 10mins stepper 15reps of bicep curls programme their trainer has given them has lost it's appeal that they turn to whatever they see others doing. Unfortunately, as you've pointed out, that is rarely the big 4 of deadlift, squat, press and pull up.

Strange thing I've noticed is that once you show someone the rudementary lifts, they don't seem to go back. Granted that my gym is more likely to have dedicated guys in it and they're also more likely to do what I say (cos I'm the gaffer ), but still, I think maybe there's a lot to be said for sharing the info.

Hanley

My question is, why don't these guys take the time to show someone how to squat, deadlift, bench and press?? I know in TF they're a bit short staffed at the mo, but the guys that are in tend to do nothing but wander around all day. I know when one of them was asked to help someone out he went totally out of his way and they benefited greatly from it. I'm just curious as to why it doesn't happen more often...?

cowzerp

Sqauts and that type of exercise should be the most important part of training but there is only so much of them you can do so whats the big deal in doing both?

its like saying squats are brilliant so we dont need deadlifts!!

Transform

I do not think anyone said not to do both in a program.

I do however think squats and deadlift progression should be staggered i.e. decide to push for making more progress on one while making slight progress on the other.

Finally, the squat and deadlift are very important for men but the lunge and straight leg deadlift i have found to be better exercises for women in terms of the results they produce.

Hanley - most gym instructors help the people that do not need the help i.e. the regular trainers and gym bunnies and thats exactly why in a few years time they stop working in the fitness industry because they earn feck all and never develop their skills -

hell if all gym trainers/personal trainers read this section of boards for 6months they would know almost everything they need to get the majority of people in shape. But they don't as they get into the industry for themselves and not because they truly want people to feel and look their very best

tireoghainted

Hanley wrote: »

The way I would look at it is this...

I squat well over 2x bodyweight. Put me on a stability ball or bosu ball or whatever, give me a couple of days to learn the movements and how to fire my core properly on it and I'll take on anyone who trains on it regularly.

Now, give me that same person and throw them in a squat rack and lets see if they can support over 2x bodyweight. I doubt they would.

All I have to do is adapt all the core strength that I already have to this new exercise.

Obviously!
You need to understand that core activation is neural, the adaptaions are quicker, strength increases and hypertrophy are cellular and take far longer for adaptaions to occur in the body.
You are right in what you say though about your core, show me someone with a weak core that can squat double their weight, it doesn't happen!
But if you begin with stability work "core activation" and increase neural drive to working muscles, then cellular adaptations will be quicker. So why can't people do both without being ridiculed?

Hanley

tireoghainted wrote: »

Obviously!
You need to understand that core activation is neural, the adaptaions are quicker, strength increases and hypertrophy are cellular and take far longer for adaptaions to occur in the body.
You are right in what you say though about your core, show me someone with a weak core that can squat double their weight, it doesn't happen!
But if you begin with stability work "core activation" and increase neural drive to working muscles, then cellular adaptations will be quicker. So why can't people do both without being ridiculed?

Neural adaptation only works up until a point tho. Then to get "stronger" cellular adaptation has to take place.

Cellular adaptation requires more "work" than neural does. For example today I was working sets of 10 on squats, by the time the 8th rep came around one of my shoulders was cramping and one of my legs was shaking violently. This doesn't happen with "easy" neural exercises like swiss ball work.

My point being, everyone jumps on the "functional" bandwagon and wimps out because all they need is their stability ball and they're set.

FTR, I do think that sort of work has it's place, and I've used it extensively for rehab in the past, I just don't think it sohuld be the "core" (lol, weak) of anyone's program.

itsallaboutheL

Hanley wrote: »

My question is, why don't these guys take the time to show someone how to squat, deadlift, bench and press?? I know in TF they're a bit short staffed at the mo, but the guys that are in tend to do nothing but wander around all day. I know when one of them was asked to help someone out he went totally out of his way and they benefited greatly from it. I'm just curious as to why it doesn't happen more often...?

Look before i say this im not saying every instructor is the same so dont bite my head off. i think the problem is its an awful lot easier for the lazy uninterested instructor to teach crunche ona swiss ball that proper squat technique........... and what percentage of instrructors in the country do u think can overhead squat..........very few................... its just less hassle, less talking to people they've no interest in and less work.................once again this is some not all...

Mikel

de way..... u tpye......gives me a ................freakng..... hedache

Transform

Mikel wrote: »

de way..... u tpye......gives me a ................freakng..... hedache

LOL - agreed