RJJ vs Calzaghe

Oilrig

Looks like its on. Probably Millenium Stadium.

10 years ago it would have been easy to predict, what do you guys think now?

I think RJJ would shade it. Hard call and I really like the Calzaghe style but if RJJ turns up fit I can't see him being beaten TBH.

pjbrady1

I will plumb for Calzaghe to win easily with a stoppage.
RJJ was famed for his speed and knockout power. He had that because he had that lean, muscular, sprinters build. Once an athlete of that build goes over 30 there is only one way for their career to go.
Calzaghe is not built like that and has proven he is still in good shape. RJJ move up to heavyweight and move back down would probably not have done him the best in the conditioning stakes.
Thank you Frank Warren for serving up this fight 10 years ago!!!! Your champions really put it about, I respect Calzaghe, but it's surely a little embarrassing to be meeting Hopkins and Jones a decade past their prime.

Big Ears

Calzaghe by stoppage , Jones has no workrate anymore and his reflexes are quite diminished , his only chance is to take care of Calzaghe early .

10 years is a bit of an exageration , Jones still looked in his prime till the Woods fight in 2002 , infact you could say he looked it for the Ruiz fight in 2003 aswell .

Hopkins looked in his prime till about the Joppy fight or the 3rd Allen fight in 2004 .

yes that is 4/5 years ago which is still a long time but the truth is 10 years ago no one outside the UK knew who Calzaghe was and considering he was in a different division to Hopkins and Jones it would of been pretty impossible to get them to the negotiating table in 1998 .

However it is actually Hopkins(and his advisers) fault for their match not happening sooner .
After the Brewer fight in 2002 Warren starting negotiating with Hopkins through Showtime(which is the only reaon you can trust the story as it was told by the head of Showtime and not Warren himself) for a fight with Bernard Hopkins . Hopkins team asked for 3 million(I'm guessinf that was dollars) , Warren accepted , Hopkins team came back the next day and asked for 6 million......Warren said no . So instead of fighting Calzaghe Hopkins did nothing for a year and then fought Hakkar , who was(and still is) pretty useless .

Running Bing

Think Calzaghe will beat RJJ comfortably and then retire.

If it happens like that in 50 years time when people look back his record will make some reading...46-0 with Eubank, Hopkins and RJJ on his hitlist:D

The Artist

Babybing wrote: »

Think Calzaghe will beat RJJ comfortably and then retire.

If it happens like that in 50 years time when people look back his record will make some reading...46-0 with Eubank, Hopkins and RJJ on his hitlist:D

imo i dont think Calzaghe will beat roy comfortably as like when joe fought hopkins,Calzaghe looked tired and tiny bit rusty for my likes.I know Joe has a good record but at this stage he will get beaten in the long run.If it did happen id think hed lose and retire and he'l say "Im happy knowing im still the best and look forward to a good rest and thanks to my fans and my farther for all the help" etc.

cowzerp

How will i explain to my young lad or lassie that Calzaghe who wins by slapping his way through fights has beaten Bhop and RJJ??? It cant happen! but RJJ is way past it-i enjoyed his sparring session with Tito but it was that, a spar!

I'd still back RJJ but would hate for him to lose due to age..:(

joepenguin

I think this is hard to call because we all knew Jones would look good against Trinidad and that Calzaghe wouldnt look good against Hopkins.

It seems the millenium stadium is booked for rugby all of November

orestes

cowzerp wrote: »

How will i explain to my young lad or lassie that Calzaghe who wins by slapping his way through fights has beaten Bhop and RJJ??? It cant happen! but RJJ is way past it-i enjoyed his sparring session with Tito but it was that, a spar!

I'd still back RJJ but would hate for him to lose due to age..:(

Oh please don't do the same thing you did with Calzaghe and Hopkins with this fight. Saying RJJ will win because he is better, but if he doesn't it is because of his age. You can't have it both ways. I know you don't like Calzaghe (you actually seem to harbour some kind of intense personal hatred of him) but you can't just say he should lose the fight, but if he wins it's because his opponent is past it, that doesn't make sense.

I reckon Calzaghe will take it with a late stoppage

Judomad

orestes wrote: »

Oh please don't do the same thing you did with Calzaghe and Hopkins with this fight. Saying RJJ will win because he is better, but if he doesn't it is because of his age. You can't have it both ways. I know you don't like Calzaghe (you actually seem to harbour some kind of intense personal hatred of him) but you can't just say he should lose the fight, but if he wins it's because his opponent is past it, that doesn't make sense.

I reckon Calzaghe will take it with a late stoppage

personal hatred????? would you stop, its his poxy slapping that annoys me, hes the most successful slapper ever, hes not good, end of.....ha

cowzerp

rjj is way past it but has way more ability than joe, so i can have it both ways, if he wins its cause he's better and loses cause age, simple really. I dont hate joe at all just dont like his illegal techniques getting him through fights when he should be docked points regularly for slapping. I followed his whole career too. Cheering him on aswell till i got sick of the slapping.

Big Ears

cowzerp wrote: »

rjj is way past it but has way more ability than joe, so i can have it both ways, if he wins its cause he's better and loses cause age, simple really. I dont hate joe at all just dont like his illegal techniques getting him through fights when he should be docked points regularly for slapping. I followed his whole career too. Cheering him on aswell till i got sick of the slapping.

funny that seeing as he used to slap even more in the past , those were power slaps back then too , before the hands gave in .

The Artist

Kessler calls Calzaghe a slapper

Mikkel Kessler has built the heat ahead of his 3 November super middleweight unification bout with Joe Calzaghe by claiming that the Welshman "slaps".

"Calzaghe's an awkward fighter who throws a lot of punches but slaps a lot, too," he told BBC Sport Wales. The accusation has been frequently thrown at Calzaghe and helped motivate him to two of his best performances, against Byron Mitchell and Jeff Lacy. ;)

nacho libre

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/7369798.stm

The Artist

McGuigan doesnt know whats hes talking about IMO.

menoscemo

Anyone see the Byron Mitchell fight? IMO this is the last time Calzaghe showed his true power, got off the deck and sparked him. Remember Mitchell was a world level operator who had never previously beeen on the floor.

I think that fight contributed greatly to Calzaghe's hand trouble.

But against RJJ, if a big win would truly be his last fight, (there is talk of a rematch if the first fight is competitive) I seriously see Calzaghe doing a number on him and Knocking him out cleanly. All this slapping talk IMO is a jibe at Calzaghe not knocking people out and hopefully this fight would put an end to that.

akindoc

People are getting carried away here.

Calzaghe is being heavily overrated in the boxing world at the moment.

Firstly, he lost to Hopkins on my scorecard (although it was close). I scored it, 1,2,3,4,7,10 to hopkins and the rest to joe. When you factor in the knockdown you have to give it to Hopkins.

He beat Kessler fair and square but how good is Kessler really? Lets see him in against Carl Froch (might be his next fight). Is Kessler actually that good or just the best of a bad bunch? And is he even the best of a bad bunch? I'm not sure how to rate him.

No one can provide a coherent argument that Joe would beat a Prime RJJ. No one. Although Roy has slipped, and he HAS slipped marketly, I would still favour him over Calzaghe.

RJJ still has the stamina to go 12 rounds and could stay with Calzaghe. He is a better boxer, faster and is very adaptable, although Calzaghe is too. He also is a BIGGER PUNCHER than Calzaghe IMO and he CAN fight off the ropes if necessary.

His big problem at this stage is his chin.

But I still would favour him to do a number on Calzaghe.

Big Ears

davey180 wrote: »

McGuigan doesnt know whats hes talking about IMO.

Well the author of the article doesn't anyway , claiming McGuigan won the IBF Featherweight title(a title that would have been quite lightly regarded at the time) . He infact won the WBA against Pedroza .

The Artist

Big Ears wrote: »

Well the author of the article doesn't anyway , claiming McGuigan won the IBF Featherweight title(a title that would have been quite lightly regarded at the time) . He infact won the WBA against Pedroza .

i admired the barry as a great boxer but bad decision when he fought cruz! The heat! It was staged out door wasnt it? I must blame his manager whots his name?

menoscemo

davey180 wrote: »

i admired the barry as a great boxer but bad decision when he fought cruz! The heat! It was staged out door wasnt it? I must blame his manager whots his name?

Thank you very much Mr Eastwood (barney)

Big Ears

davey180 wrote: »

i admired the barry as a great boxer but bad decision when he fought cruz! The heat! It was staged out door wasnt it? I must blame his manager whots his name?

I was indeed , in a normal air conditioned America arena I fancy he would have won the fight . It's still very hot under those lights for the cameras but nowehere near as bad as that day in Vegas .

Barney Eastwood was his managers name .

ODD-JOB

eastwood ,....... i think he amongst others tried to persuade barry to pull out.
but mc guigan went ahead regardless.

That was a great treat for me as a 9yr old kid,..... I got to stay up till all hours with my Dad watching it. Made a right night of it , just the 2 of us

The Artist

Thanks lads i must be getting old! Eastwood yes,whats is he doing now i wonder hes up to these days,not still in the pro boxing game?:D

The Artist

ODD-JOB wrote: »

eastwood ,....... i think he amongst others tried to persuade barry to pull out.
but mc guigan went ahead regardless.

That was a great treat for me as a 9yr old kid,..... I got to stay up till all hours with my Dad watching it. Made a right night of it , just the 2 of us

i dont blame guigan for trying as he really wanted his title not lost and his fans aswell.Still hes around and doing alright for himself.

joepenguin

I think a prime Roy Jones would have taken Calzaghe but would not have an easy night! They weren't in the same divison when Joe was WBO champ anyway. By the looks of things Joe has the better handspeed and workrate. Having said that a 90% Roy Jones is a whole lot better than 150% of most fighters and Im sure he took note of the success B-Hop had with that right hand.

The Artist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPT6E_ouBnM
got to see this:D

walshb

I've never been a fan of Joe and think he operated in an era of talent that was IMO, not great at all. He is a slapper, with zero power and even the low blow V Hopkins was with the side of his hand. He couldn't even deliver a low blow of worth, even though BHOP made a meal of it. He scraped past a 43 year old fighter who was basically a spoiler and defensive shell. He probably does beat Jones, on work rate alone. He will deliver nothing of real class and has yet to show me anything close to the prowess that a peak Jones or Toney showed. Benn, Eubank and Watson in their primes would all have beat Joe, possibly by KO....His chin too has never been tested by a real class puncher....

ODD-JOB

davey180 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPT6E_ouBnM
got to see this:D

It made my year when Glencoffee put him out. . .

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

I've never been a fan of Joe and think he operated in an era of talent that was IMO, not great at all. He is a slapper, with zero power and even the low blow V Hopkins was with the side of his hand. He couldn't even deliver a low blow of worth, even though BHOP made a meal of it. He scraped past a 43 year old fighter who was basically a spoiler and defensive shell. He probably does beat Jones, on work rate alone. He will deliver nothing of real class and has yet to show me anything close to the prowess that a peak Jones or Toney showed. Benn, Eubank and Watson in their primes would all have beat Joe, possibly by KO....His chin too has never been tested by a real class puncher....

If he beat Pavlik would you revise your opinion of his ability? Is there currently any boxers out there, were Calzaghe to beat them, you would then revise your opinion of him?

raven136

nacho libre wrote: »

If he beat Pavlik would you revise your opinion of his ability? Is there currently any boxers out there, were Calzaghe to beat them, you would then revise your opinion of him?

nope they wont,there is certain people on this forum who have set opinions on him and no matter who he beats wont respect him.

Judomad

raven136 wrote: »

nope they wont,there is certain people on this forum who have set opinions on him and no matter who he beats wont respect him.

yes i agree being one of them, he slaps and slaps and slaps.....no technique, poor boxer, tough fighter is what he is...

pjbrady1

Okay we are all aware of the style in which Calzaghe fights but lets give the man his credit. He has fragile hands, (he's not playing that up, it shows his swelled hand after the fight he broke it in with the gloves having to be cut off him). So you're asking Joe to do the impossible by throwing his full weight behind a right or left hook. Both hands are in bad shape I believe. So he punches with a slapping style at times, but he also pulls off punches which rely on arm snappy pace using the correct knuckle technique (rather than full bodied weight transfer). Witness one of the dust ups with Lacy where they trade four each but then Joe gets on top with pace and accuracy. It might look messy, but you honestly have to slow some of his fighting down to see that alot of his punches do land. Give me a more accurate top class middleweight when two people are stood right in front of each other in a corner. He can also lead with his shoulder pretty well.
As for Chin never tested. Lacy caught him on the side of the chin with a hook and he did not go down. He's taken enough to the side of the chin by this stage and he has never once looked woozy. He's been down but not dazed.
Roy Jones clearly will not have the stamina for 12 rounds of boxing. Bernard Hopkins had the most fantastic looking training videos on youtube before the Calzaghe fight, he was looking 8% body fat, ripped as shredded wheat and he was gassed after eight rounds. Roy Jones hasn't been down at a lean weight in a long time. He is also built for speed and strength not for stamina. No athlete can cover every base, you can only have so much from each athletic attribute. Calzaghe avoids Jones first five rounds, and can march up to him from that point on for an easy win. Ninth round stoppage.
Calzaghe has accuracy, punch variation, accurate uppercut, hard to hit, long reach, well above average stamina, a good chin, adept wrestler, fight night patience, confidence.
He does not have knockout power, dazzling speed (not bad though). His former have always made up for the last two. A stamina boxer can beat a strength boxer if he can get through the first six rounds. That is Calzaghes secret.

cowzerp

pjbrady1 wrote: »

Okay we are all aware of the style in which Calzaghe fights but lets give the man his credit. He has fragile hands, (he's not playing that up, it shows his swelled hand after the fight he broke it in with the gloves having to be cut off him). So you're asking Joe to do the impossible by throwing his full weight behind a right or left hook. Both hands are in bad shape I believe. So he punches with a slapping style at times, but he also pulls off punches which rely on arm snappy pace using the correct knuckle technique (rather than full bodied weight transfer).

He hurts his hands because he slaps. Do you not understand that?? Landing clean never hurts your hand. Only landing wrong.

Running Bing

davey180 wrote: »

Thanks lads i must be getting old! Eastwood yes,whats is he doing now i wonder hes up to these days,not still in the pro boxing game?:D

Owns a string of bookmakers in the north and sold a load more for millions a few years back.


He was in the sunday times rich list last weekend. Worth in the region of £112 million if I remember correctly:eek:

The Artist

Babybing wrote: »

Owns a string of bookmakers in the north and sold a load more for millions a few years back.


He was in the sunday times rich list last weekend. Worth in the region of £112 million if I remember correctly:eek:

must get a few quid of him!:p

walshb

nacho libre wrote: »

If he beat Pavlik would you revise your opinion of his ability? Is there currently any boxers out there, were Calzaghe to beat them, you would then revise your opinion of him?

I guess at this stage it would be hard to revise my opinion. As much as I'd like, I just can't get excited about him. He was protected for years and dominated a division that IMO, lacked real class. Robin Reid, Mitchell, Lacy, Kessler etc, just don't cut it.

Beating Sakio Bika was a good win, sloppy as usual, but Bika is a very hard man. The HOP fight was a scam, and I knew this before, even though I predicted a HOP win. Cal did nothing in the bout to impress me.

He never boxed the cream and would have been soundly whupped, had he....

Pavlik is a very good fighter, but he's yet to prove that he's a great great fighter. I think his style, size and power, as well as his fitness may well beat Cal at 168lbs. Should Cal beat him in a bout where Pavlik gives it his all, then yes, Cal has to be given TOP marks...

I'm wanting Cal to impress me, but feel it's too late. Unbeaten, but never really tested...

cowzerp

nacho libre wrote: »

If he beat Pavlik would you revise your opinion of his ability? Is there currently any boxers out there, were Calzaghe to beat them, you would then revise your opinion of him?

If he beat Pavlik i would not change my opinion on joe been a good boxer, i would change my opinion on him been a tough fighter who has beat someone who mattered, i know loads of tough fighters who never done boxing and it shows too. ps, he needs to beat 3-4 peak fighters to genuinely be remembered as a great.

Calzaghe been a slapper is a fact and wont change no matter who he beats, its how he will be remembered by boxing historians, that beaten the likes of peak Pavlik will favour him greatly, Pavlik would destroy calzaghe though as he is a peak fighter, ko in the 1st 6 rounds.

Mikel

Against Manfredo, his opponent stopped fighting and he got off at least 20 unopposed strikes. Not a single one would qualify as a punch. He couldn't knock him out if he was there all night. He actually started patting him on the top of the head. Pathetic.

About 90 secs in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv1Et0W3xeI

jayroyal

cowzerp wrote: »

If he beat Pavlik i would not change my opinion on joe been a good boxer, i would change my opinion on him been a tough fighter who has beat someone who mattered, i know loads of tough fighters who never done boxing and it shows too. ps, he needs to beat 3-4 peak fighters to genuinely be remembered as a great.

Calzaghe been a slapper is a fact and wont change no matter who he beats, its how he will be remembered by boxing historians, that beaten the likes of peak Pavlik will favour him greatly, Pavlik would destroy calzaghe though as he is a peak fighter, ko in the 1st 6 rounds.

the last few ya lined up to beat him, joe been them both revise your judgement lad. I've a funny feeling it's way off.:D

pjbrady1

Landing clean will not hurt your hands is true. But from the piece I seen his damage is along the top of his right hand. When he lands a clean shot the force would travel through his knuckles and down into those bones. By slapping he is cushioning the blow over the entirety of his hand and if you think of the science bit keeping a bit more muscle between the contact point and his brittle bones. It all depends on the injury.
Anyways this thread has run it's course I think, general conclusion is he wouldn't beat a peak Roy Jones but he'd beat him now.
As for the 20 clean shots on Manfredo, he throws often 800-900 punches in a fight. For a man with bad hands he's obviously pretty delicate near the end of fights. He probably could have knocked him out, but only if he finished his own career by breaking his hands up. Let's not forget Calzaghe putting a near peak Eubank on his end with a stingy uppercut in round one back in the 90's.

Big Ears

Mikel wrote: »

Against Manfredo, his opponent stopped fighting and he got off at least 20 unopposed strikes. Not a single one would qualify as a punch. He couldn't knock him out if he was there all night. He actually started patting him on the top of the head. Pathetic.

About 90 secs in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv1Et0W3xeI

He would have genuinely stopped him within two rounds imo , he was starting to hurt Manfredo with body shots(which is why Manfredo started backing up , allowing Joe to go into a 'slapping frenzy' .

Ridiculous stoppage but Manfredo really should have thrown something despite being terribly outclassed .

The Artist

Big Ears wrote: »

He would have genuinely stopped him within two rounds imo , he was starting to hurt Manfredo with body shots(which is why Manfredo started backing up , allowing Joe to go into a 'slapping frenzy' .

Ridiculous stoppage but Manfredo really should have thrown something despite being terribly outclassed .

+1 i saw that clip you posted definetly slap after slap and ref stops fight for it god!I thougt simply in the rules no part of the palm of gloves in contact eg slapping is allowed.Why didnt Manfredo and his corner guys protest about it?

menoscemo

davey180 wrote: »

+1 i saw that clip you posted definetly slap after slap and ref stops fight for it god!I thougt simply in the rules no part of the palm of gloves in contact eg slapping is allowed.Why didnt Manfredo and his corner guys protest about it?

Becasue he had no chance of winning the fight and would have had to be stopped soon anyway.

The Artist

menoscemo wrote: »

Becasue he had no chance of winning the fight and would have had to be stopped soon anyway.

from being slapped nah cal should have been disqualified if I was the ref!imo.

The Sparrow

Just cos I'm a sucker for punishment let me once again post that (imo) Calzaghe doesn't slap!

In the same way that Michael Johnson had a completely different sprinting style which would have been frowned upon if a youngster did it, Calzaghe punches differently than other boxers. And like Michael Johnson it works for him.

That is why he has never (as far as I can tell) been docked any points in his professional or amateur career for slapping. Lot of so-called experts on here complain about Calzaghe slapping but nobody seems to have an answer as to why no referee has ever pulled him up on his so-called "slaps"

It's actually hilarious here. If somebody beats Calzaghe it is because they are better. But if Joe beats them it is because they are over the hill or were never that good anyway.

walshb

Maybe he doesn't slap, but the action he uses is not proper punching technique. He makes a fist and hits with the bottom part of his clenched fingers, not knuckles. That's why he has zero power in the shots...

cowzerp

woooo232 wrote: »

Just cos I'm a sucker for punishment let me once again post that (imo) Calzaghe doesn't slap!

If you genuinely believe that then you dont know the rules of boxing, punches have to land with the knuckle part of the glove, anywhere else is a foul, and hitting with the palm area, fingers closed o'k but that is a slap, end of.

woooo232 wrote: »

It's actually hilarious here. If somebody beats Calzaghe it is because they are better. But if Joe beats them it is because they are over the hill or were never that good anyway.

Calzaghe is not in the same league as a prime RJJ or BHOP, so if he beats them of course its down to there age. if they beat him it just shows how much better than him they are and where. The bookies had Bhop winning his fight and they have no bias, so i'll go with them as they seen it the same as me, calzaghe threw lots of non scoring punhes, BHOP threw less but way more scoring shots..

The Artist

cowzerp wrote: »

If you genuinely believe that then you dont know the rules of boxing, punches have to land with the knuckle part of the glove, anywhere else is a foul, and hitting with the palm area, fingers closed o'k but that is a slap, end of.

+1

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Maybe he doesn't slap, but the action he uses is not proper punching technique. He makes a fist and hits with the bottom part of his clenched fingers, not knuckles. That's why he has zero power in the shots...

No the reason he doesn't have power is because he's Joe 'hands of chalk' Calzaghe . He showed earlier in his career that even while slapping he had a pretty good whack . You can visibly see he doesn't throw shots with the same venom anymore to protect them .

Mikel

woooo232 wrote: »

Just cos I'm a sucker for punishment let me once again post that (imo) Calzaghe doesn't slap!

well he certainly doesn't punch, by the end of that fight he was doing the doggy paddle on the top of the guy's head.
Best british boxer ever my arse

ODD-JOB

funny reading kelly pavlik's trainer there during the week,....he says joe C slaps like a girl !!:p

The Sparrow

It's amazing how nobody has argued the substantive part of my post. That Calzaghe merely has a different technique than everybody else which works for him. It's actually classic to hear ppl here tell me I know nothing about boxing because I don't think that Calzaghe slaps.

Unbelievably in Calzaghe's 120+ amateur fights and 45 unbeaten professional fights not one single judge or referee has picked up on his supposed slapping and docked a single point for all of these illegal shots. But it so clear to the experts here?:rolleyes:

Am I the only one that considers this a wee bit strange?:eek: